I’m still not seeing why Israel is being treated as a priority over or at least equal to Ukraine. Ukraine is up against a legitimately strong adversary using human wave tactics. Israel is dropping bombs seemingly indiscriminately on mostly civilians. Ukraine is fighting for its existence. Israel is getting revenge on its much, much weaker neighbor.
If Iran and its proxies enter the war, that might change the calculations, but that hasn’t happened yet.
Agreed. Even if Iran enters the war, it will be to stop a genocide. I don’t understand why the US is so keen to tie themselves to Netanyahu’s government.
US and Isntreal share the same settler colonial ideology and history. Native Americans or Palestinians, its all about genociding the “uncivilised tribal hordes” to make space for themselves.
And the more support Israel gets to kill those civilians the more likely sympathetic regional neighbours would be inclined to join. And rightly so. It’s genocide.
Ukraine was never about Ukraine. It was about NATO’s attempt to balkanise Russia, as said by US ex-VP Dick Cheney. It was about the attempted CIA coup during 2003 Orange protests, which failed, and another CIA attempt at 2013 Euromaidan protests, which succeeded, overthrowing sovereignty and democracy, installing US puppet, installing biochemical factories for genocide attempt against Russia, and to make more money for military weapons industry.
It was all about USA using Ukraine as a condom to fuck with Russia, and the whole NATO failed in unison.
I can’t believe how many shitlibs there are in here, using this opportunity to guilt people with an actual conscience into voting for this piece of shit as if he has some sort of moral high ground.
What is the lesser evil when both the DNC and the GOP work directly for the exact same military industrial complex?
The real villain here is the system that makes any party outside of the two party system completely irrelevant: first-past-the-post.
We have two Republican parties. One of them just so happens to pretend better at being inclusive…but they secretly also wish that the poor could be burned to fuel their mega-yachts.
The one that isn’t taking away trans rights, making abortion illegal, and saying the last election was stolen, seems like the lesser evil actually. I can agree that I think our parties would be slightly better if first past the post was changed to allow for multiple parties, but i think it’s ridiculous to say both parties are currently the same. Edit: As I responded to thecrotch, I disagree with the assertion that the Dem party is evil. Flawed? sure, our 2 party system will only allow for flawed parties, but to say their evil is downright showing ignorance of US politics or disinformation given the examples that I gave.
You’re right, what I should have also added to my post was that, I disagree with the assertion that the Dem party is evil. Flawed? sure, our 2 party system will only allow for flawed parties, but to say their evil is downright showing ignorance or disinformation for the examples that I gave.
Democrats voted for Afghanistan, Iraq, the Patriot act, and countless other evil legislation. They’re absolutely evil. So they’re less evil than the Republicans, so what? Should I give them a cookie?
My state is reliably going to be won by the same party no matter what I do, and that party is going to get 100% of our electoral votes no matter what I do. So I vote third party, because if they can get 20% of the popular vote they get to be in the debates next time around. Living in a locked down state, it’s the only way my vote can possibly have a chance of making any difference.
You’re like 20 years behind, catch up. Give them a cookie? Give them your vote. The alternative is republicans who RIGHT NOW, IN THIS YEAR are attempting to restrict abortions, deny the elections, restrict lgbt+ rights. Democrats are fighting against that. But yeah you’re right maybe split you’re vote because both sides “are the same”.
He’s absolutely wrong. A lot of the same reps who voted for the evil shit I mentioned 20 years ago are still around. Democrats sponsor and vote for evil shit to this day. How many times has the Patriot act been extended? The RESTRICT act was bipartisan. The fact that they wear a pride flag while doing it doesn’t absolve them.
I don’t think anybody said that. Also, nobody’s telling you how to feel. Democrats regularly sponsor and vote for evil shit, that’s a fact, feelings don’t enter into it.
Idk what you thought you read, but someone said “Democrats aren’t evil” and I said “yes they are and here are a few examples of them being evil” and that’s actually a pretty simple argument and I’m still not sure what your point is
Democrats aren’t getting people killed, Republicans are by not allowing women to get medically necessary abortions. To people over seas, seeinh one group deny the existence of covid, make abortions illegal, and passing laws restricting lgbt+ peoples rights is obviously the evil one.
I’m sure that the people in Syria who are being bombed and the people in Palestine who are being bombed by Israel using US dollars really care about our domestic politics as they watch their families get blown to shreds.
Oh no! I mean poopoo libs for those that can’t handle a little reality on neoliberalism. Ps. I’m not name calling. I’m making a point. BrooklynDad and Charlotte Clymer are examples of DNC shitlib’s from Twitter that did the exact same two party guilt trip.
Your neoliberalism brings to Lemmy the worst toxicity from Twitter. Hold your head in shame.
I had missed being gaslighted by mature adults that also just so happened to be on the Progressive Policy Institute’s astroturfing payroll about being a horrible piece of shit if I didn’t hold my nose and vote for the lesser of two evils that screw their constituents in exactly the same way as the “bad guys” but do it with a smile. Go tell David Brock to transfer you to a new department.
Did you forget that I can see your comment history? I’m going to do the right thing and block you once you read this. Please try to keep in mind that you are a supposed leftist who likes to shame other leftists who aren’t willing to compromise like you are. If you consider me toxic for pointing that out, maybe go touch some grass and sign off for a while.
You can instantly spot the pro-fascist pro-Russia tankies by this single word. And the comments just ooze peak toxicity while trying to act like some moral authority. They literally can't help themselves but call names because I'm pretty sure 99% of them are actually children
If you care about nuance, I’m a libertarian socialist/anarcho syndicalist (Chomsky-ite) who thinks that democratic socialism MIGHT POSSIBLY lead to a more just society than the corruption extravaganza that we have. Sue me if I don’t fit the tech bro libertarian Jordan Peterson fanboi or fake leftist IT guy archetype that comprises the rest of the Lemmy population.
I’m all for free political speech. But fuck your definition. Spewing hate and vitriol like it’s some speech virtue. We all left Reddit because it leads to horrors in the name of free speech. All while claiming the opposite is Virtue Signaling. This behavior is a blight on reason and kindness.
Calling out libshit isn’t spewing hate and vitriol, thin-skinned cracker. If you want to be passively fascist without any pushback, go back to reddit. Or better yet, take this as an opportunity to grow as a person and realize that your world view is not only unpopular, it’s also evil.
You don’t get to suppress ideas that threaten your ego, that’s not how things work here.
You want to disagree on a point? Be my guest. You want to call those who disagree with you “libshits”? Then piss off back to Reddit, where hate is the embodiment of the virtueless you seek.
The Fediverse isn’t the kind of “free speech zone” you think it is. And never was. It was created exactly to oppose that.
And yet the United States continues to slide into fascism despite having elected Biden. What horrific Trump era policies did the Democrats even bother to repeal after they won in 2020 and held both the senate and the house?
They are still funding the construction of border wall segments. They never repealed the Republican tax cuts. They have done nothing about the concentration camps on the southern border for fuck’s sake. They never codified Roe v. Wade, we literally lost the right to abortions while Biden was in office. They could have stacked the supreme court but they didn’t.
The Democrats and the Republicans form an obfuscated one party system in the US. Republican leadership aggressively ramps up the oppression of marginalized people, then Democratic leadership does nothing to restore our rights nor proactively prevent the same thing from happening again. Instead they just use their time in office to suck all of the energy out of people’s movements that could actually effect change.
And much more importantly than all of that, Republicans and Democrats are virtually identically evil when it comes to foreign policy. When the US is dropping bombs on you and destroying your country, you’ll tend not to care whether it was a Red MAGA or Blue MAGA administration pulling the trigger.
In some specific cases it might be worthwhile to vote for Democrats in local elections where there exists much more leeway for politicians to stray from the party line, but voting for them in national elections is just lending your voice to legitimizing their bullshit good cop/bad cop routine they play with the Republicans.
Yes, that is a feature of democratic systems. Parties want to get voted in. So they bend their programs to achieve that goal. I live in Germany and here all parties are leaning further and further to the right, since the AfD (nationalist-conservative, some party members Neo-nazi) party is gaining in almost every poll.
If all that was at play here was mere democracy, we’d have an M4A candidate. The population is solidly to the left of either party on the majority of issues, but they get no voice because liberal democracy is an exercise in choosing between the options that capitalists have picked for you.
Your bubble/echo-chamber is solidly to the left of either party on the majority of issues. The bulk of the population is mostly fine with or approving of a right-shift in media policy.
I don’t know what you’re on about wrt “media policy” but I’m not saying Americans are communists. It’s been demonstrated in survey after survey that social-democratic positions are generally the most popular.
Both are fascist, the only difference is where the fascism is pointed. That’s why you’ll see a lot of fake leftists support Biden, because they don’t care about the world all they care about are themselves.
It is a fact that the economic policies of Nazi Germany were mass privatization and public-private partnerships, both of which are the hallmarks of neoliberal policy. Your denial of this is factless. Not that it matters to you, because you don’t care about facts. You’re just an empty headed smuglord with Facts and Logic™ aesthetics
Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.
To me, it sounds a whole lot like both Biden AND Trump can be considered fascists….especially with this idea of secret military aid to Israel that I’m reacting to here.
Looking at it from an economic definition perspective though Biden represents the financial bourgeoisie and Trump represents more industrial bourgeoisie
I’d actually argue that Trump comes from the real estate bourgeoisie but I agree on the Biden characterization. Biden never saw an MBNA donor contribution that he didn’t love (like in 2008 when he sold all future generations out for a $250,000 payout from MBNA).
I just don’t see how real estate wealth translates to industry. In general, many of Trump’s areas don’t fully align with the Republican establishment who, in my observation, generally are from real estate, energy, and industry as you mentioned.
Thinking about it more, it seems like real estate has a lot of overlap in both parties.
Trump obviously comes from real estate, but his current money-making on a direct level is decidedly media-driven. The question is who gives him money and who benefits from his policy, and I think the answer is that he has a relatively larger amount of support from the petite bourgeois.
Maybe I should switch to hexbear. I feel like I’m on 2016 Twitter, arguing with Neera Tanden’s astroturfing PPI team and they’re trying to brainwash other leftists to think that Single Payer is somehow bad.
I do not think its “both are Republicans”, but both are centre-right neoliberal capitalist parties. I like to call them two wings of US Nazi Eagle.
Neoliberals have a very basic set of beliefs, like “rich=successful”, “leech and ignore the poor”, “capitalise on anything possible”, “be a both sides weasel” and so on.
If they’re both equally evil internationally and mostly equally evil domestically, am I allowed to vote for who is less likely to remove more human rights from women and trans people?
I would never tell anyone that they should vote, I understand people’s reasons for not doing it. Selfishly, I’m going to give myself the best chance of having access to life saving health care until I’m no longer of child bearing age.
Of course! I’m just standing up to speak my mind. We all are allowed to vote exactly as we see fit. I live in MA where I have the opportunity to vote with my conscience, but in a place like AL, SC, or KY, my strategy wouldn’t be helpful to those groups of people.
The two party system makes democracy in the US an absolute sham.
If Hitler had actually held an election and the only options were him or a Strasser party, I don’t think it would be immoral to vote for the Strassers. But I also don’t think it would be a moral obligation if you had no reason to believe they would stop the Holocaust.
A vote for Hindenburg was indeed a vote for Hitler, so I think the moral is that caping for a lesser evil instead of trying to build good (and those two things are normally opposed) is not a constructive behavior. I couldn’t give less of a shit who you personally vote for, that’s the consumer-lifestyle version of political engagement. I do care somewhat what you advocate for, because promoting the lesser evil is still promoting evil over good (using the overly moralistic phrasing of the adage).
Withholding support from Nazis (on any substantial level) is plainly the better option if you want to not need to keep choosing between two Nazis.
The 1932 election had a communist option, it’s unlikely that there will be one on my ballot.
We’re not going to overthrow fascism in America at the voting booth. I’m not trying to convince anyone to vote for Biden, that’s his job and he’s not doing it very well. I’m also not going to shame anyone for doing something easy like voting in the hopes that it makes them a tiny bit safer.
I would shame someone if they thought that voting democrat is a step towards bringing about positive change or parroted some bullshit about how we can get more concessions from Democrats than Republicans. If voting is the extent of your political engagement, you aren’t opposing fascism.
My thing is, why are some people here just finally throwing away their votes?
Like I knew from a very young age that this country doesn’t care and will enthusiastically turn it’s back on you if your hardship is an inconvenience to capital in any way, look how they treat the ndns.
And if anything there is money to be made off our suffering.
This is why colonization anywhere is colonization everywhere. From the river to the fucking sea, Palestine WILL BE FREE
My effort is contributing to my community and the less fortunate. You think me bubbling in a check mark for someone who is giving the thumbs up for an ethnic cleansing and genocide is putting in work? Go outside.
I really hope your 2016 vote went to an independent, then. I’m having a hard time seeing how Trump would ever do either of those things. Granted, he might thumbs-up an ethnic cleansing if it meant remaining in power.
“Things aren’t going how I like when I vote, so now i will encourage everyone to not vote to improve the chances that things will change the way I want them to”
People are always ready with some morality test but the cold hard truth is trying to enforce your absolutes on others is not going to work out. It just backs you into a corner supporting a turd sandwich. Compromises suck though. Can’t have that. You do you.
What good dude? We murder civilians in multiple countries every year regardless of who’s in power. Trump and Obama both indiscriminately murdered civilians with drone strikes, Biden expanded police funding more than any president before him. Hilary Clinton bragged and laughed about overthrowing a democratically elected government. Nearly all Dems and republicans voted in favor of expanding the military budget by billions of dollars even though we just ended a fucking war. We’re definitively the most evil country that has existed on this planet since at least the Dawn of the modern nation-state, and more blood is on the hands of Americans than any other nation on earth.
Several presidents have put tax dollars to work on medical research. For example the The U.S. President’s Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief (PEPFAR) paved the way for money for the PreP trials in 2005.
Obama kicked off precision medicine and gene research.
Obama’s HITECH Act reformed HIPAA in a way that improved outcomes for patients and the industry.
But yea, everything is black and white. Conflicts in Africa and the middle east are the only concern I could ever have.
I especially do not care at all about any medical advancements or harm reductions.
Everyone must survive and no one can ever be harmed or everything is lost.
You know you sound just like the every sperm is sacred anti abortion activists.
War = so bad we must sabotage anyone involved in war and trade all our liberties, freedoms, health, etc just to not have war!
I’ve always found it strange how people gatekeep internet culture. Especially when it’s meaningless in the face of a genocide. I don’t care about this perfect utopia you expected the fediverse to be. I will be firmly against genocide and will say it wherever I see fit.
It’s more that you talk like nobody else is against genocide. Nobody here wants genocide. Your “solution” is just a nothing burger. The reality is every government is pretty fucked up, some more than others. There’s no way to change the whole world order, so you try make it as less shit for as many people as possible, not just throw your hands up and say “I’m done with voting”.
Whilst it’s a topic that can get very personal (which is why invariably political discussions ultimately get heated very quickly, as this thread has shown), I think the point here essentially boils down to pointing out what not voting means.
In a system where you have one side doing their best to amplify the weight votes for them have (whether that be through gerrymandering, the electoral college, etc), not voting just increases that amplification. So whilst on paper not voting demonstrates your lack of confidence in either side (and let’s be honest, without some real changes it’s a two horse race), in reality that decision is primarily (not exclusively, but primarily) benefiting one side of politics.
If you’re making the decision to not vote with full knowledge of what that means, realistically I think that’s all someone can ask without getting into a discussion about trying to change your mind about that decision.
That’s why I’m shifting to voting for Republicans. Only one way to accelerate the enshittification of politics and that’s by electing religious nutcases that will enforce their system on everyone.
Why do we want to accelerate it again? Honestly seems like some Russian "Keep America busy and out of conflicts" plan. I'd rather not vote in a group that will also make it harder to fix anything without a second civil war.
Mostly I’m just tired of smoothbrains complaining about the president when they are probably doing jack shit to change FPTP voting at their local, county and state levels. I know for some folks sarcasm doesn’t come across too clearly on the Internet.
Do whatever you want. You’re a person behind a screen as am I. You aren’t going to change my mind on this. I’ve heard it for the past 8 years with Clinton then Biden. I cannot vote for people who support a modern day holocaust
Man quit it with the “if you don’t vote for the guy I want you’re actually voting for the other guy”. I’m not voting for anyone. You want to secure my vote? Earn it. Don’t just be slightly less monstrous than the other guy
Not necessarily, you don’t have to consider them culpable so much as aware, and stuck between a hard place and some very sharp rocks. But I think it would very naturally rest on anyone’s conscience if they’re considering living in the land of Canaan so to speak
The man who refuses to vote for the one aggressively funding genocide or the one who martyrs the world on the guy who is aggressively funding genocide because he is "the lesser evil."
You actually don’t vote for the president. Our vote is merely a suggestion. So vote freely and with confidence. Which criminal is your preferred president?
I told you my beliefs and I own it. You told me yours and you own it. Is this supposed to be some next level analysis, that I disagree with you? That’s usually how conversations work.
I don’t disagree. Will continue to vote locally, even nationally if the candidates align with my values and will keep voting for third parties. I just cannot justify a lesser evil to myself anymore.
Nah man Russia is kind of old news, arguably there was a build up from years ago, and yeah feelings change over time, but if you ask me, nobody really needs to suffer…
Spoiler alert: This would have most likely happened regardless of the D or R next to the president’s name on the ballot.
There’s two reasons I could see the US supporting Israel regardless of who’s in charge: the logical one because it has historical precedent is that the US wants Israel as a buffer for Russia due to it’s strategic location in the Middle-East, and the other reason is more conspiracy theory but I wouldn’t be surprised if the US can somehow get access to Palestine’s oil if Israel beats the shit out of the Hamas.
Or third, Israel has invested a lot in American politics after Eisenhower used American economic power against Israeli allies in the Suez Crisis, seeing that it needed to be on good terms with at least one super power and the USA seemed like the more natural fit. This includes going as far as supporting any primary challenger that pledges Israeli support.
It was either that or go the way of its apartheid nuclear buddy, South Africa.
You’re not any more anti-genocide than I am, you’re just being childish. You’re not getting your way so you’re going home. Meanwhile the right wingers are taking advantage of your childishness to enact more sadistic laws at home.
You’re literally choosing to be indifferent to the suffering of one set of groups because a politician didn’t protect your preferred set of oppressed peoples.
Not saying I am, but voting for someone who enables a genocide goes against my values. If by childish you mean choosing what I want to do with my vote, then sure.
Great, I’m telling you that it goes against my morals. You can effectively vote for whoever you want and I can effectively not vote for either. Are you going to tell me voting third party is a vote for Trump too?
Biden has not called for a ceasefire. He has called for a humanitarian pause until they can get hostages and foreign nationals out, so they can resume bombing. I’ll continue using my vote as my voice. You are free to do whatever you want.
This exact attitude is how we got where we are. Don’t vote for policies you don’t believe in. There are other candidates, win or lose, vote for one that represents you.
This isn’t how we got here. The people that don’t vote tend to be left leaning. Republicans do vote, in mass. I fail to see how thinking not voting/voting third party is how we got here.
You getting downvoted for refusing to vote for Biden for a very valid reason is proof of how broken our two-party system is. This is why every state needs to pass ranked-choice voting. Maine did it and proved it could be done, and now they get to vote for who they actually /want/ without having their vote “spoiled”.
Everyone in the US should be working to get ranked-choice voting in their state.
Spineless, pathetic cowardice. I mean we already knew that about Democrats but this just indicts the entire administration as such. Israel makes no apologies for their slaughter, they just don’t give a shit, but this means that Genocide Joe and Co. KNOW this is wrong and they’ll still bend over backwards just to kill a foreigner.
Zero attempts at “harm reduction” pfff, they’re actively taking steps to make the harm (literal bombing of children) worse. I live in a swing state, so when I throw my vote away I’ll get to feel proud knowing it was worth even more. Glory to the martyrs and may “Israel” and her American dog be annihilated.
I mean, that’s not entirely accurate - a vote for a presidential candidate is a vote for the slate of electors tied to said candidate - effectively a vote for your candidate, albeit indirectly. Electors can, however, be required to vote according to popular vote as required by the state they’re electors in. Or they could have pledged to vote according to specific party. I don’t know for sure, but I assume state elector requirements override party pledges.
My understanding is that when it was devised, it was a compromise between direct democracy (which would honestly be potentially dangerous - how many people do you know where you can’t help but go, “Fuck… This guy can vote.”) and election via congressional vote. It certainly ain’t perfect and I have no bias towards it, but it’s a system like anything else that people tend to point at and blame when things don’t go their way or just ignore or even defend when things do go their way.
Biden is president. Things went my way. But let’s imagine that this was how you got lunch.
Hmm, Josh! I want a hamburger!.. okay buddy I promise I’ll bring you a hamburger. I’m just going to be your food delegate in the food acquisition team.
Josh! I want a salad! … and I want a spoon full of extra virgin olive oil!. Josh I want an apple! Hey Josh can I get some Doritos crushed in a bowl and mixed with jalapeno and chicken nuggets!
Then Josh goes to the big food acquisition meeting… My team wants a spoon full of extra virgin olive oil!
Then you wait half an hour and you get a turkey sandwich but you’re vegan so you eat the three onion rings.
70 percent of the office was vegan too, but only 5 of the food delegates were vegan. The other 20 were old timers that have been ordering the food for the past seven years. They like turkey sandwiches. So you get turkey sandwich.
I hope you enjoy your turkey sandwich 🥪. 😂 LOL. At least it wasn’t a lump of lard with a tupee.
The long, drawn out metaphorical explanation was unnecessary and frankly kind of condescending.
I’m not over here trying to be some champion of the electoral college and I’d be more interested in seeing a real push for ranked choice or one of its cousins.
The point I was making was that if you sat at home and didn’t vote at all, your chosen candidate would never see the inside of the oval office and I went into my understanding of why it is the way it is. Ultimately, voting under the current system is not entirely worthless as you seemed to claim in the original post I responded to.
We’ve had something like 59 elections in total and 5 of them involved the winning candidate losing the popular vote but winning the election by way of the electoral college. Only one of those elections - the very first - involved anything even remotely close to your example (but still not42.3% vs 31.6%). The other 4 had a difference of like 2% or less between the two leading candidates.
The electoral college was devised as a compromise between direct democracy and congressional voting and I’m sure it was done in good faith to try to make sure everyone was represented, but this system seems to truly show its cracks when we’re facing an insanely stark national split like we see today and there’s no argument that we should probably shake things up and get rid of it.
Isntreal is not controlling USA, its the opposite. USA sees a microcosm of their own in Isntreal, sharing the exact same kind of genocide and settler colonisation, be it Native Americans or indigenous Palestinians.
Biden said something like: “If there was no Israel, we’d have to invent it.”
The US loves having a highly militarized, violent, totally amoral and 100% US-dependent proxy next to all those oil fields. The last thing the US wants is peace in the middle east. This is just divide-and-conquer 101.
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