Defederated from Feddit.nl. Update: Refederated!

Lately we have been dealing with a few abusive members from Feddit.nl and we were unable to get in touch with the instance administrator.

Part of the problem is the instance’s open registrations which do not require you to enter an e-mail address during signup. This in combination with an inactive admin is a recipe for abuse.

We hope this is only temporary but we have to do this to protect our users.

Edit: we use fediseer, have a look gui.fediseer.com/instances/detail/lemmy.world

Edit 2: We got in touch with the Feddit.nl admin. Email requirements were added to the sign-up process and we’re setting up a communication channel. So that means we are federating with Feddit.nl again!

tedvdb,
@tedvdb@feddit.nl avatar

Good to be back! 😅 🥳

antik,

It’s funny that this post on feddit.nl has 20 upvotes. It doesn’t catch up once the federation starts again. I thought it would tbh

Quacksalber,

Nope, in order to not overload lemmy servers, the lemmy software does not federate pre-(re)federation content. That is one reason why I find it a bit ridiculous to wield the biggest stick you have, defederation, so freely.

antik,

I think in the case of an instance being spammed with csa material we are allowed to use all the sticks at our disposal - and in this case it was actually the only stick we had. And once we got in touch with TedVDB we refederated.

He’s now also in the chat room where most Lemmy instance admins hang out. I’d say that’s a positive for everyone in the end.

Transcendant,

Maybe it’s just a coincidence, but it seems like everytime .world defeds from a problematic instance, it’s almost immediately smashed with DDOS attacks.

The beauty of lemmy as I see it though IS the federation, if .world is down no worries, I’ll just browse on sopuli.xyz or any of the multitude of other instances :) we are like a sexy hydra of positivity.

Squander,

I feel your frustration with “unable to get in touch with the instance administrator”. I’m waiting for a response from @ruud and @MichelleG from 9 days ago regarding abusive members.

antik, (edited )
@antik@lemmy.world avatar

This was not about “abusive members” this was about a member having too many communities according to you. We both seem to have a very different definition of “abuse”.

The user in question does have a lot of communities but he is very active and has different moderators who he manages. Also, when the moderators of these communities do well he transfers the community over to them. As recently as yesterday when he transferred !movies and !marvelstudios.

While he has a lot of communities he does a good job managing his communities and training moderators and is making our lives as admins easier. If someone has a lot of communities and doesn’t do anything with them, that is squatting and we take action. I think we have a good track record of that.

So unless there is something we are missing I really would not call any of what the user in question did “abusive”.

Lastly the best way to get someone to look at your problem is to use the report feature. The reason you got no reply in nine days is because there was no problem.

Squander,

1st, great communication- No response because there is no problem. That’s a terrific reason for instance administrators to ignore messages. I should have read their minds and known, geesh my bad. 2nd- I used the report feature on august 26th and did not receive a response until a week later. The response wasn’t even a fix, it was just asking if I was still having a problem. So thats clearly not the best way to contact admins. That leaves @ ing admins on major posts to get a response. Its annoying, but so far the only effective way. Lastly, If a user creates dozens upon dozens of new communities, solely because they might become popular and then sits on them/isnt active in them, I would say thats an abuse of the system. I suppose we should all start registering any community that could potentially become big. Then when they do become popular, we can gatekeep who is worthy enough to mod them. Plainly, power-mods shouldnt be a thing.

antik,
@antik@lemmy.world avatar

That is an entirely different discussion and definitely no “abusive user” as you made it look here. That is an opinion. I am done with you report trolling. Find another instance

clueless_stoner,
@clueless_stoner@lemmy.world avatar

They want the rom.antik but they always get the gig.antik banhammer

antik,
@antik@lemmy.world avatar

😏

LetterboxPancake,

That was not what they expected 😂

BitingChaos,
@BitingChaos@lemmy.world avatar

Part of the problem is the instance’s open registrations which do not require you to enter an e-mail address during signup.

How is this even a thing? Why would the Lemmy software even allow operation like this?

cley_faye,

Because anyone running it can decide to do it this way. That’s how code works; you can edit it. Even if the option wasn’t there, if any instance admin wants that to happen it’s easy to do.

ccunning,

Last I checked, even Reddit allows signups without an email address…

jimbo,

In case anyone’s wondering, you can use the old.reddit.com interface to sign up without an email.

ccunning,

I only ever used old.reddit.com. Didn’t realize that option was limited to to the old interface

dreadedsemi,

Last time I signed up, even new one allows you to leave email empty.

wmrch,

That’s true but they annoy you with a persistent banner to add an email address later on. But it’s working nonetheless.

ClarkDoom,

Cuz we’re on an anonymous forum basically?

SpliceVW,

Let’s be real - an email address doesn’t really stop much of anything. Anyone can really easily spin up new email addresses freely.

Corkyskog,

Yeah I still don’t have an email associated with my reddit account. Which shocks people… although I haven’t logged on in months, so maybe it’s now required for legacy accounts

tpyo,

Hah, I replied higher up in the comments that when I signed up for reddit, I also didn’t need an email address and I think that particular one never required setting one

Newer accounts definitely did and I used different emails for those accounts

SportsRulesOpinions,
@SportsRulesOpinions@lemmy.world avatar

They somehow managed to force me to add my email. I don’t remember how.

MakeItCount,

it’s not required globally but some subs require it to be able to post

So far only /r/formula1 does for me

CoderKat,

Sadly yeah. We absolutely should use email signup because it filters our the absolute lowest effort bots, but it does nothing against higher quality bots or humans. Not only can you easily spin up new emails on the fly, but many emails allow ways to make the email appear unique (eg, Gmail ignores dots and anything after the + sign), there’s plenty of temporary email services with a variety of domains, and if you own a domain, you can trivially create unlimited emails until they catch on and ban the entire domain.

Inactive admins are also an issue, but if malicious users are determined enough, it doesn’t matter that much how active an admin is. An active admin can mostly help by making IP banning an option (imperfect, but will work on many humans) and can temporarily turn on approvals to make it easier to weed out low hanging fruit. Nothing will work against someone determined enough, but could at least reduce how many instances they can turn to.

itsdavetho,

Personally I don’t think anything will stop anyone determined to bring this type of harm to the community, there’s an endless list of workarounds. These communities need a larger network of moderators across timezones

sab,

Nope, but it will stop the less determined ones.

With no email verification, you can pretty much create dozens of fake accounts per second - as fast as the API can handle.

antik,
@antik@lemmy.world avatar

Sure. But we changed our sign-up policy recently. Users are now informed during sign-up that temporary email accounts are banned.

We have another announcement regarding this soon.

ttmrichter,
@ttmrichter@lemmy.world avatar

How do you define a “temporary email account”?

I’m reminded of old games that insisted you couldn’t sign up with an email provider and had to use an ISP email … which kinda screwed over the literally BILLIONS of people whose ISPs don’t give email addresses…

tpyo,

Back when I signed up for reddit, you didn’t need an email and they warned you if you lost your password you’d be locked out of your account until you regained it and they would not offer support to reset it

I liked that. I don’t want to have to submit my email for everything just to interact

cyberpunk007,

One of the reasons I have my own email domain and random email addresses for certain services.

Voyager,
@Voyager@psychedelia.ink avatar

Managing this for a large amount of services is a huge overhead for me. I use Sub-addressing and then apply filters based on categories.

IdleSheep,
@IdleSheep@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

If you have catch all enabled for your custom domain there’s basically no overhead.

Signing up for reddit? Just put [email protected] and that address will be automatically created and start receiving reddit’s emails. Don’t have to fiddle with anything.

cyberpunk007,

I like this.

I use legacy free g suite, might see if it supports this

smash.vc/gsuite-catch-all-guide/

jcg,

I do this as well but there’s been quite a few times when the email input wouldn’t accept it and it’s usually on the sites you really wanna have it on.

Duamerthrax,

I was dumb founded to find out that vrchat doesn’t except ProtonMail. I had to use my mothballed gmail account.

Dopeness,
@Dopeness@lemmy.world avatar

Got a domain? Setup ‘catch all’ and you are all set. If not consider a cheap one. It’s unlimited disposable email addresses for few buck a year.

cyberpunk007,

Interesting. How does this work? I’ve never used it. I either add manual aliases or distribution groups. It’s a pain in the ass but it works and is safer than using the same email for everything.

One thing I like is also how you can tell who sold your email to spammers 🤣

dpkonofa,

It annoys the shit out of me how many developers don’t allow for sub-addressing. Google has supported it on Gmail since inception and it follows the damn spec! Don’t use your crappy form validator if it doesn’t allow valid emails!

Copernican,

I’ve always been curious. Do any parties just remove the string between “+” and “@” when they see those emails registered?

dpkonofa,

Not that I’ve seen. Some do however incorrectly escape the string and end up with an invalid email like [email protected] instead of [email protected].

Dopeness,
@Dopeness@lemmy.world avatar

Catch all? I love it so damn much since I got it. Bitwarden added it on the fly and now I got disposable email addresses for anything I can think of, it’s so, so perfect!

Tangent5280,

Hi, is this only for the web interface or something? Is this available for the android interface?

ohmyiv,
@ohmyiv@lemmy.world avatar

You can access it from the android Bitwarden app. Go to the password generator. Where it says “What would you like to generate?”, tap Password and select username in the popup, then click OK. After that, it gives you an option to use a different emails when it generates the email address to use for the account you’re setting up.

palitu,

hmmm… i may need to buy bitwarden… i currently self-host, but that sounds very tempting!

Dopeness,
@Dopeness@lemmy.world avatar

No need. Even selfhost is free. The catch all feature is also included in the free plan. Bitwarden free is amazingly packed with pretty much all the features you need. Tip: Make a ‘non-profit’ organisation and invite your family to it. You can share passwords for streaming service etc using this.

ttmrichter,
@ttmrichter@lemmy.world avatar

And then there’s those of us who don’t use email for all practical purposes. I haven’t sent an email in anger for a donkey’s age; the only reason I have an email at all is because of all the people in North America who think email is the wave of the future.

Asudox,
@Asudox@lemmy.world avatar

Lemmy is open source. Everyone can modify it to fit their needs.

helloharu, (edited )
@helloharu@lemmy.world avatar

Well that’s disappointing, but glad the lemmy.world team are making sure they are on top of it and keeping transparency with all that you do. Thank you.

Zombiepirate,
@Zombiepirate@lemmy.world avatar

Thanks for all you do!

Somewhat related: any word on re-enabling image uploads? I understand completely why you had to do it, just wondering if there’s a roadmap?

antik,
@antik@lemmy.world avatar

Image uploads had an issue a while ago but should be working. Which client are you using?

Zombiepirate,
@Zombiepirate@lemmy.world avatar

Oh, sorry I haven’t tried in a while. Looks like it’s back up! Thanks!

dog

Viking_Hippie,

Nice self portrait btw

ekZepp,
@ekZepp@lemmy.world avatar

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/df02e91e-9e3f-4946-a663-96199e67c58a.jpeg

r0m2,
@r0m2@lemmy.world avatar

I love it!

TheDoctorDonna,

Fantastic!

givesomefucks,

99.999999% of the time I see a giant image I block the user because they’re annoying…

That shit is just too perfect tho

Aceticon,

That has got to be the best meme with Daleks I’ve seen in quite a long time.

Kudos!

darelik,

And so a lemmy legend was born

eee,

It seems like the user who posted the csam has been banned, does that mean the admin/mod is active again?

PrinceHabib72,

Stuff like this is going to kill the momentum of the fediverse. I’m a reddit refugee, my main account started on vlemmy.net (because it had a policy to not defederate from anything), and when that went poof, I moved to feddit.nl (because it has a policy to not defederate from anything). I believe it is MY prerogative, and no one else’s, to decide what I am or am not allowed to see. I curate my own feed by blocking or subscribing to instances I don’t or do want to see, respectively.

Regardless of any of this, however, I am now unable to view any content on .world without this account, due to actions entirely outside of my control. Since hosting my own instance is out of the question for me, my options are: find a third instance with a no-defederation policy that hasn’t been defederated itself from major instances, have multiple accounts and browse each instance individually, stop browsing altogether, or go back to reddit. As distasteful as the last option is, it’s tempting. I know the impulse will be to tell me “good riddance”, but I am posting this because I know there are others like me that are tired of instance hopping and trying to find somewhere that doesn’t try to police our browsing and also isn’t defederated from major instances.

For the record, I don’t want a no-defederation instance because I want to browse Nazi or pedo instances. I want a no-defederation instance because I have a principled objection to others telling me what I can or cannot view.

hydriplex,

I feel like the fact that you still consider Reddit an option invalidates your entire point.

Boiglenoight,

I believe it is MY prerogative, and no one else’s, to decide what I am or am not allowed to see. I curate my own feed by blocking or subscribing to instances I don’t or do want to see, respectively.

What about abusive users that post in communities outside of their home instance? I think that’s what we’re talking about here. I can block instances, but there are communities in Lemmy.world that I enjoy and I appreciate the admins effort to keep abusive users out.

PrinceHabib72,

Each user can block other users. Moderators can block users. It can be handled the same way that other sites (yes, like reddit) do it. I’m also not opposed to defederation when it is essentially a single-user ban- for example, if there is an instance with no communities, no signup requirement, and has nothing but malicious bots- that’s banning a bot farm, not “defederation” as it’s commonly understood. But with something like this- where feddit.nl is actually a rather large instance- so many people are essentially being punished for absolutely no fault of their own.

antik,
@antik@lemmy.world avatar

Do you understand that when CSAM images are uploaded to an instance, they are federated to other instances as well?

Even if users have the option to block whole instances themselves, there are STILL going to be instances Lemmy World will not be federating with because we don’t want to risk having any of that on our server.

And feddit.nl had a user that posted csam on our instance, which then federates to other instances. So basically everyone gets a copy.

PrinceHabib72,

I do understand. I’m expressing a worry that things like this will lead to trouble for the fediverse’s user retention. Nowhere did I say that I didn’t understand the reasoning. It’s not a requirement to have a solution at hand when pointing out a problem. An instance as large as lemmy.world defederating from an instance as large as feddit.nl is a problem. Is the solution giving moderators better tools? Stopping the automatic proliferation of images? Removing the image hosting entirely to rely on external hosts? Or is this an insurmountable problem with no solution? The specific answer, or even existence of an answer, does not determine whether the problem itself exists.

antik, (edited )
@antik@lemmy.world avatar

There would not be a problem if the instance was managed. Everyone can start an instance but it takes a lot more to keep it running and moderated. Check the problems beehaw.org are currently going through.

And as you point out, feddit.nl is quite a big instance but it only has ONE admin. That is a problem. And that is also something to remember when you decide on which instance you want to host your community.

PrinceHabib72,

I don’t host a community. At a basic level, I would like the ability to view (and I mean VIEW, not even necessarily interact with- I cannot force my interaction on anyone) the entire fediverse for myself. If other people want others to tell them which areas align with their views, they can join instances that block other instances from being able to participate. I just wish that didn’t mean the defederated instance could no longer even view the blocking instance.

gingersneak,

It sounds like you should host an instance. This will give you the abilities you want, unless you provoke defederation from someone.

PrinceHabib72,

I’m unfortunately unable to host an instance. I wish I could, honestly.

stringz,
@stringz@nobigtech.es avatar

@PrinceHabib72 @antik are you concern trolling? Because this sounds like concern trolling. You know what they say, you let one Nazi in your bar, soon enough you'll own the Nazi bar.

PrinceHabib72,

I’m legitimately unfamiliar with the term. I’m being very genuine. I’m not sure what you mean about the Nazi bar, either. I’m encouraging users to curate their own experiences. Any time they see a Nazi, they can figuratively erase that Nazi from their personal existence. If they see a Nazi bar, they can erase that too. I object to being TOLD, rather than deciding for myself, what bars are Nazi bars.

stringz,
@stringz@nobigtech.es avatar

@PrinceHabib72 The metaphor is not from the individual but from the bar owner's (or instance admin, if you will) POV.

One Nazi shows up at a bar, the owner goes to kick him out. But a concerned patron disuades him by saying that free speech is important and if anyone doesn't want to talk to the Nazi they are free to ignore him. They are perfectly capable of choosing who to talk to and don't stand to be TOLD who they can or can't talk to.

stringz,
@stringz@nobigtech.es avatar

@PrinceHabib72 The next day the Nazi guy shows up with 9 of his friends. The other patrons notice the tattooed swastikas, banners and bigoted talk, it makes them uncomfortable. They ask the owner about, who says that they have not been rude or disturbed anyone.

But the word quickly spreads all over the neighborhood.

The third day, no other patron wants to go there anymore. Only the Nazis go to the bar. It's a Nazi bar now. And the owner is stuck with it.

PrinceHabib72,

That helped me to understand what you meant, thank you, but I guess I don’t see this analogy as very accurate. A Nazi showing up at a bar and being asked to leave is not what I’m against- that’s what moderation IS. What is more accurate here is that a Nazi shows up at a bar, and a completely separate group arrives at the same time. Since they arrived together, they are ALL made to leave, despite none of them controlling the Nazi’s behavior. That’s what defederation is like on that side, and the other is that I am told that I am not allowed to visit the Nazi bar. To be clear, I have no interest in visiting the Nazi bar, but my issue is- how do I trust that it IS a Nazi bar if I’m not allowed to visit? I’ve seen so many people called “Nazi” in the past ten years it blows my mind, and of them, only a tenth or fewer are what I would consider Nazis/neo-Nazis. I’ve been called Nazi in real life because I expressed my opinion to a friend that I was disappointed Ariel was cast the way she was. Do I hate black people? No, I just think redheads are hot and I was disappointed. Juvenile, absolutely, but worth being called “Nazi” by a passersby who overheard? This is obviously an exaggerated example, but I believe the point stands.

stringz,
@stringz@nobigtech.es avatar

@PrinceHabib72 More accurately, the fediverse is one single quantum entangled multidimensional bar. When you enter the door of one bar, you enter in all of the bars at the same time. Every owner controls who enters or leaves their dimensional portal, but can't control who enters through other portals. If one owner refuses to stop one Nazi, others don't have the power to stop the one Nazi and only the one Nazi only. Their only recourse is to cutoff from that portal entirely.

stringz,
@stringz@nobigtech.es avatar

@PrinceHabib72 And it's only my opinion. But if speaking your mind out loud labels you a Nazi, in multiple occasions, to multiple people and contexts. Maybe it's time to reflect and introspect deeply, reevaluate your values and principles. You might actually just be a Nazi, or close enough as to be indiscernible, and just didn't realize.

PrinceHabib72,

How on EARTH do you read that anecdote and come away with “Yeah he’s a Nazi” and not “Man that person was an idiot and Nazi labels are used way too liberally”? Like actually how? Do you wear a helmet to bed?

stringz,
@stringz@nobigtech.es avatar

@PrinceHabib72 Well, idiot and Nazi are not mutually exclusive. So…

stringz,
@stringz@nobigtech.es avatar

@PrinceHabib72 But I get it, you'll rather insult those who disagree with you and provide you with clear respectful criticism, than self-reflect. So, yeah, you're correct, in your own words you're kind of an idiot.

PrinceHabib72,

Please read the rest of this thread to see how I deal with non-idiots.

stringz,
@stringz@nobigtech.es avatar

@PrinceHabib72 I did, that's why I suspected initially that you might be a concern troll. Some people feed off of conflict for they crave the adrenaline rush that arguments create. So they're contrarian for the sake of being contrarian and be antagonized online. It happens.

DarkWasp,
@DarkWasp@lemmy.world avatar

I actually prefer that instances can do this, the whole point is to find one you more closely align with like old school forums. The ones they’ve done this to are either mass brigading, full of Nazis or sharing CSAM. They have every right to protect their users from that kind of stuff or make those decisions when they’re individuals paying to run an instance.

Until there’s a tool I can use to fully block instances myself (which I don’t see available) this is the way it’s run. Maybe the fediverse just isn’t for you? As someone who grew up using old school forums this is completely fine and expected. If I am running a website (or store) I have every right to manage it the way I see fit.

PrinceHabib72,

If defederation worked more like a shadowban, I would agree with you. .world defederating with feddit.nl could result in no one from .world seeing any content posted by anyone from .nl, but .nl can still see the content from .world. It’s unfortunate that .nl couldn’t participate anymore, but it’s better than that community ceasing to exist.

Defederations as they exist now are like being in a restaurant. There are two employees, one makes the food, the other makes the drinks. It starts out with being able to order either, or both, right from the comfort of your table. However, the owner of the restaurant decides that he just doesn’t care much for drinks, and kicks out the drink-maker. The drink-maker opens a new store across the street, but he does not serve food, only drinks, and the restaurant you started at doesn’t serve drinks, only food. Yes, technically, you are still free to go across the street to get some drinks, or stay here for some food, but boy, wouldn’t it be nicer if that owner never decided he didn’t like drinks? Sure, not EVERYONE in the restaurant cares, but a pretty significant amount of them probably would. They might just go down the street to McReddits. Sure, the food there is pretty bad, but at least they can get both food and drinks without having to go across the street.

leraje,
@leraje@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

A user on there posted CSAM. Given that images federate too and that moderation over there seems to be lacking, do you not think it’s unrealistic not to expect defederation?

PrinceHabib72,

I never said I didn’t understand. I’m pointing out a problem that can, and I believe, will, lead to issues with user retention. If one is punished for the bad actions of someone on their instance that they have no control over, it will lead to frustration. I know this because it has happened to me twice now- once with vlemmy disappearing due to someone posting something bad that spooked the admin, and now feddit.nl because someone posted something bad that spooked these admins. I’m not saying it’s not understandable, I’m merely saying that a problem exists.

leraje,
@leraje@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I expect the Admin’s priority was to worry about potentially inadvertently hosting CSAM rather than user retention.

PrinceHabib72,

Two problems can exist simultaneously. I’m suggesting that something should be done about defederation, and the things that lead to it (like automatic image proliferation), because if defederation continues as it is, it will hurt user retention.

leraje, (edited )
@leraje@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

It really won’t. Mastodon has whole block lists and has done for years and guess what - user retention is no problem at all.

From what you’ve commented here, you’re annoyed that you keep picking instances to join that allow shitty things to happen and then don’t. The issue there is not defederation, it’s that:

  1. Moderation is lacking
  2. Your insistence on wanting to join an instance that’s a free-for-all

In the real world, instance Admin’s are legally responsible for what’s on their servers. If you want to defed from absolutely no one then you need to rent a VPS and spin up a Lemmy instance of your own. That way, the legal risk is all your own.

PrinceHabib72,

I mentioned elsewhere, I don’t have the ability to run my own instance. Mastodon also has user migration tools, making it much easier to start up a new account on a different instance. Lemmy does not. I’m also not even talking just about myself. There’s been drama about large instances defederating from each other since I joined- which, to be fair, was only a few months ago, but it’s also when the population exploded and defederation became a real concern. My main problem is the simple idea that, due to actions entirely outside of my control, large sections of the fediverse can just disappear for my account, forcing me to either accept the newer, smaller fediverse, or make a new account somewhere else that happens to federate with both my previous instance AND the defederated instance if I want a single account to view the same content I used to.

leraje,
@leraje@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

LASIM can help you move all your account details. Lemmy is nowhere hear as mature a product as Mastodon so it’s no surprise a lot of what Mastodon has, Lemmy doesn’t - yet.

I’m really not sure you’re ever going to be able to have what you seem to want because it doesn’t exist. There’s a limited set of tools available and if an instance Admin isn’t being vigilant, there’ll always be fuckwits ready to do shitty things. If the only way that other Admins can tackle that is defederation then that’s what’ll happen. It’s not going to affect user retention because I think the majority of people are quite prepared to accept that unmoderated instances are a liability of a much greater scale than defederation.

PrinceHabib72,

I’d say that’s fair. I understand that what I want is unlikely to come about, it’s a somewhat extreme view, and due to Lemmy’s current configuration, admins are on the hook legally for everything posted on their server. Something needs to change for defederation to change, and it’s very likely that defederation won’t change. I’ve only ever been expressing a concern of mine. Lemmy doesn’t cater to my will- I’m not even a programmer, I couldn’t do any of this stuff even if I had the power to do so. I just hope that it does change.

leraje,
@leraje@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Defederation is never going to go away because there are whole instances out there dedicated to hosting illegal material and because, lets not forget, Admin’s want the Lemmyverse to succeed and a way for it to not succeed is to federate with instances that do this and also have userbases made up of racists, homophobes, transphobes etc. Literally no one wants to be constantly firefighting their own individual user block lists to keep blocking hundreds of awful people. What they want is to spend time on their communities. That’s why instances have codes of conduct stating what they won’t allow. It allows quick, painless instant separation from arseholes without putting the onus on all their users to individually block users from whole instances.

But, as Admin and Mod level tools (and to a lesser extent user tools) get developed, defederation will happen less and less.

orientalsniper,

This is part of the growing pains, once moderation tools mature, this type of federation will be less of an issue.

PrinceHabib72,

I think so too, especially if and when users get the ability to block entire instances. That will prevent some of the defederation-for-wrongthink (in either direction, it doesn’t matter), and as it matures, I think the “accidentally hosting CSAM” will be less of an issue as well.

DarkWasp,
@DarkWasp@lemmy.world avatar

Sharing Nazi views and spewing racist vitriol isn’t “wrongthink”, now you really seem to come across as concern trolling and disingenuous (especially putting it in quotations).

A user blocking an entire instance still means their hateful members can post and clog up another one. We don’t need Lemmy.world turning into truth.social. People don’t want to see or read that garbage or be exposed to it, this isn’t a “both sides” issue.

PrinceHabib72,

Uhh… what quotations?

I’ve already said, I’m being completely genuine. And it’s why I said “in either direction”, because lemmygrad defederates from stuff too.

DarkWasp,
@DarkWasp@lemmy.world avatar

You put the term “wrongthink” in quotes, as if using racial slurs and promoting white supremacy (which is what one instance was defederated for) is just normal discourse that should be tolerated. The things they’re defederating for are not minor or petty. This very post cites CSAM as a reason.

I’m done with this, I don’t think you’re actually sincere and just want Lemmy to be Voat or 8chan.

PrinceHabib72,

I literally did not use quotes. I’m very confused. Are you mistaking me for someone else? I will say it again, I’m very sincere. White supremacy (along with any type of racism) is fucking stupid. I used the term wrongthink because it goes both ways- lemmygrad would consider capitalism wrongthink.

Lols,

having a ‘principled objection’ to others telling you that you can’t see child sexual abuse tapes is very admirable and sounds much better

i doubt its going to change anything though, since ‘principled objection’ to laws doesnt actually stop said laws from applying to you, or the site youre using

PrinceHabib72,

Ah yes, the two things- acceptable things and CASM. EVERYTHING IS ONE OF THOSE THINGS.

Lols,

this case of defederation is specifically literally about users posting CASM

hypelightfly,

There is a common thread in your complaints. This isn't a problem that's going to kill the fediverse it's a problem with instances without moderation. Turns out shitty instances that don't care about moderation are the same ones that "have a policy to not defederate from anything". Stop joining shitty instances that allow literally illegal content and you won't have that problem.

PrinceHabib72,

Yes, but I outlined my reasons for wanting no defederation. VLemmy was perfect- refused to defederate, actively moderated- until the issue with image federation spooked him. Also, saying “illegal content” is a bit meaningless on a globally distributed platform. On both instances- feddit.nl and VLemmy- many users outlined very similar rationale to me when the issue of defederation came up, and you and I both know that defederation is not used only for unmoderated instances. Lemmygrad is aggressively moderated and defederated from most instances because the owners find the political views expressed there distasteful, and that’s not the only one.

It just introduces so much personal bias into the fediverse, where individuals who don’t like Thing A defederates from instances that allow Thing A, cutting their entire instance off from it. Again, yes, you can join other instances, but that quickly gets annoying trying to find another instance that aligns with your Thing A-positive or neutral views. This is what I’m referring to when I say that it will kill the momentum- users getting frustrated and having to make multiple accounts to essentially dodge a completely unjustified ban (assuming they weren’t the ones doing the Bad Thing that caused the defederation) will lead to burnout and lost user retention.

As I also said, there will certainly be an impulse to say “good riddance, we don’t need them anyway”, but I think it’ll lead to more problems. The fediverse has existed as a small pocket of internet for a while. However, things don’t shrink as easily as they grow. If lemmy continues to get time and money and resources poured into its development for an ever-shrinking userbase, it won’t just go back to how it was. Growth is hard to undo.

hypelightfly,

Frankly, good riddance we don't need people who won't stick around because bad instances are defederated. That's not a problem that needs to be solved, it's a feature.

PrinceHabib72,

I know a lot of people agree with you. I’m just not one of them. I prefer a more open internet is all, where individuals are responsible for their own personal “defederations”, and don’t lose access to vast portions of the fediverse due to someone else’s actions and decisions unless they go out of their way to keep instance hopping.

DarkWasp,
@DarkWasp@lemmy.world avatar

You should then pay to create the site you want then as you’re in a small minority. That’s how the free market works. Your comments do seriously come across as concern trolling at this point.

PrinceHabib72,

Trust me, I would if I could. It’s a shame that I can’t.

Saltblue,

deleted_by_moderator

    •
    gaael,

    They ever said they were ok with child abuse, and saying this is seriously not ok.

    I disagree with them on their view of lemmy and defederation but painting them as a child abuse advocate leads nowhere.

    hypelightfly,

    I prefer a more open internet is all

    BS, what you're saying has nothing to do with an "open internet". Stop co-opting terms, a fediverse instance defederating isn't a closed internet. The other instance still exists and you can still access it if you want to.

    PrinceHabib72,

    Thank you for telling me what I want, I guess? There’s a lot between “open” and “closed” internet. Defederation is certainly more towards closed than open, no? And I would prefer it to go the other way, that’s all.

    Buffalox,

    For the record, I don’t want a no-defederation instance because I want to browse Nazi or pedo instances. I want a no-defederation instance because I have a principled objection to others telling me what I can or cannot view.

    There are laws you know, claiming a fediverse server should work outside the law is idiotic and not at all principled.

    PrinceHabib72,

    I didn’t say they SHOULD work outside the law. What are you talking about? When I say “pedo instances”, I don’t mean ones that post real life CASM.

    Buffalox,

    Regardless of any of this, however, I am now unable to view any content on .world without this account, due to actions entirely outside of my control.

    Whaa whaa whaa…

    Bullshit, you chose a server that invites illegal content on purpose. It was entirely within your control to NOT choose such a server.

    PrinceHabib72,

    feddit.nl invites illegal content? Someone should let them know that, they’re doing an outstandingly bad job at it if that’s the case.

    Vox_Ursus,

    Feddit.nl rules explicitly state no illegal content, so it seems to be not so much inviting illegal content as a failure to moderate account creation and post content, like OP alluded to.

    Izzy,
    @Izzy@lemmy.world avatar

    If we could control instance level blocking on a user level it would be much more feasible.

    PrinceHabib72,

    Absolutely agreed. I hope that becomes a feature soon, I know it is or was being worked on.

    hypelightfly,

    In general sure, but not for problems like this. That wouldn't address the issue in the OP at all.

    Izzy,
    @Izzy@lemmy.world avatar

    It won’t protect a server from getting illegal content on their drives. Best to defederate if that is happening and can’t be dealt with otherwise. If you have some other method of dealing with illegal content on your server and wanted to host a Lemmy instance that is federated with everything it would only be appealing to me if I could block instances myself.

    antik,
    @antik@lemmy.world avatar

    I don’t get this? You understand that it won’t protect a server from getting illegal content on their drives but you still want a server that is federated with everything so that you yourself can choose what to block?

    Izzy,
    @Izzy@lemmy.world avatar

    Those two things don’t seem conflicting. Some bad actor right now could upload illegal content to lemmy.world. It’s not like lemmy.world can defederate with itself as a solution. It must deal with it by deleting the content. An instance could potentially delete illegal content coming from everywhere on the lemmyverse. This would take a lot of work so if you didn’t want to bother doing that for instances other than your own you would defederate.

    If some instance owner for whatever reason decided to take on this work either manually or with some automated process that allowed an instance to exist that is federated with everything, but clear of illegal content then it would be an appealing instance. Assuming I could curate my own instance block list.

    antik,
    @antik@lemmy.world avatar

    That won’t change how we would handle instances with bad actors?

    Izzy,
    @Izzy@lemmy.world avatar

    Sure. This isn’t a solution to the problem lemmy.world is having. I just think this feature should exist.

    antik,
    @antik@lemmy.world avatar

    Well I heard that is coming in the next Lemmy update

    Clbull,

    Dunno why you’re being downvoted. Defederation feels like a gung-ho way of handling content moderation issues that centralized platforms would be able to directly solve.

    PrinceHabib72,

    It is a gung-ho way, but I understand why I’m being downvoted. People hear “I want to have the ability to view anything” or “I don’t like being told what I can or cannot view on the internet” as “I want to view CSAM” or “I am actually a Nazi”, which should result in an emotional reaction. It’s just not what I’m saying.

    Clbull,

    The problem is that the fediverse is an unmoderated mess, especially with how Lemmy and Mastodon are currently set up.

    What’s stopping griefers from setting up a brand new instance to spam existing communities with CP?

    Of course you speaking bad about the fediverse = downvotes because you’re mainly talking with fanboys.

    PrinceHabib72,

    I completely agree. Believe me, I get why the admins are making the choices they are. In the current situation of how the fediverse works, it’d be stupid not to act. I just hope that it’s able to be addressed- no more proliferation of CSAM through duplication on every instance, better moderation, more control- so that defederation doesn’t have to be used in these situations.

    antik,
    @antik@lemmy.world avatar

    What’s stopping griefers from setting up a brand new instance to spam existing communities with CP?

    Nothing! But how are you agreeing with PrinceHabib who’s saying that should that happen it would be up to him to decide whether or not he wants to see that. Skipping over the fact that the illegal content would be hosted on several instances.

    Of course you speaking bad about the fediverse = downvotes because you’re mainly talking with fanboys.

    Show me one Lemmy admin that would disagree with your statement about Lemmy being an unmoderated mess? Every instance admin has been asking for better tools from the Lemmy devs for months.

    PrinceHabib72,

    I want to be crystal clear. The content I am talking about wanting to view does NOT include CSAM, which is illegal in practically every country on earth (I’m fairly certain it’s actually all of them with any type of functioning government). At no point was I or am I advocating for the existence of CSAM anywhere in the fediverse. The only things I have ever advocated for is for fewer defederations, and dealing with those infractions as you would if it were posted to lemmy.world- namely, deleting the content and blocking the user. I am fully aware that mod tools on lemmy are very limited, and that your hands were tied with a fairly tight rope in regards of what to do about this as you can be legally culpable for content posted on other instances that gets mirrored to yours. I have only ever pointed out that punishing a group for the actions of a few can lead to problems with user retention by forcing innocent users to continue to instance hop, and that’s if they don’t give up and leave the fediverse. I would bet that very few of feddit’s users feel as I do about defederation, and they joined that instance for reasons completely unrelated to that. This is essentially being banned from many communities all at once through literally zero fault of their own. The solution I want is unlikely to occur, nor is it feasible with what lemmy currently has for tools, but that does not stop me from wanting that solution. Many people do not see defederation as a problem, and that also does not stop me from seeing it as one.

    leraje,
    @leraje@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    I want a no-defederation instance because I have a principled objection to others telling me what I can or cannot view.

    Which you want someone else to be legally responsible for providing you with.

    Holyginz,

    You don’t get to decide what others allow on their instances. It’s regular people hosting these servers and these same people having to moderate and manage those instances. They are the ones who face backlash and the repercussions for what’s posted on their servers so if they choose to make the decision to defederate to protect the instance community as a whole then that’s their choice. Long story short, tough shit. Don’t like things being defederated, create an account on a different server. Or better yet, create your own server than you can choose who you do or don’t federated with and what happens on that server can be your own responsibility.

    x7123m3_256,

    I think this issue could be addressed on the front end.

    The reason you would want a server that is federated with everything is so you can access all content at once instead of switching between accounts on different instances. If you could log into multiple instances at once with a single username and see content from both in the same feed it wouldn’t matter if they are defederated. I think this federation thing ought to be, as far as possible, transparent to the end user.

    The way this currently works feels odd to me - it doesn’t really behave like a decentralised Reddit, because your account is tied to a specific instance and the content you see depends on which instance you pick. It feels like an awkward middle ground between a centralized service like Reddit and just having a completely separate forum site for each community.

    shortwavesurfer,

    I like it here on monero.town because we have a good admin and the requirements to get an account here are high enough to make someone jump through a few hoops. None of the super big instances like world, ml, or beehaw have reson to defederate us. Some smaller ones defederate us do to ideology but its not a big loss.

    Leviathan,

    Just to play devil’s advocate; it seems like maybe an instance with a very active mod team would be another criterion to add to your list.

    BomberMan9865,

    Sounds like you want a Distributed/Decentralized service like Nostr instead of a Federated service like Lemmy, you should join there instead, I’m sure you’d be right at home there.

    EyesEyesBaby,

    I appreciate the transparency, but isn’t posting that fediseer link just the same as posting collection of CSAM instances, and thus unwanted in any possible way?

    antik,
    @antik@lemmy.world avatar

    You can also go to the “instances” page of every lemmy instance and get the same information. There is no way to block instances secretly.

    nero,
    @nero@lemmy.world avatar

    Sucks to see my home countries instance isn’t being moderated properly

    ruud,
    @ruud@lemmy.world avatar

    Well .world is also managed partly from NL :-)

    nero,
    @nero@lemmy.world avatar

    Fair point, i’ll be patiently waiting for the dutch takeover ;)

    Viking_Hippie,

    You, still waiting for it: https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/5d86bef4-a214-427d-aebe-d62d26730004.jpeg

    RecursiveParadox,
    @RecursiveParadox@lemmy.world avatar

    Ik had geen idee.

    antik, (edited )
    @antik@lemmy.world avatar

    Vinden wij ook hoor

    Edit: we think so too

    Better learn dutch now for when it becomes our instance’s primary language once @ruud, @quinten and I pushed out the other admins.

    quinten,
    @quinten@lemmy.world avatar

    Don’t tell our plans…

    ICastFist,
    @ICastFist@programming.dev avatar

    I’m keeping my eyes on you

    what-if.xkcd.com/53/

    PropaGandalf,
    @PropaGandalf@lemmy.world avatar

    Mama, dieser Mann sprich aber ein lustiges deutsch :)

    antik,
    @antik@lemmy.world avatar

    Ahh the dialect of East-Holland is almost a different language

    eckte,

    Opflikkern waus.

    • jk ly
    Aganim,

    Dat is altijd nog ‘koekwaus’ voor jou. 😋

    chrundle,
    @chrundle@lemmy.world avatar

    Can’t wait for GEKOLONISEERD

    antik,
    @antik@lemmy.world avatar

    GEKOLONISEERD.world

    landlordlover,

    Please use “I N G E P O L D E R D” as its not quite as racist as “GEKOLONISEERD”.

    For the people not in the know, the Dutch like to meme about the warcrimes in Indonesia and Africa and when they speak dutch in a comment section they make joking gestures to the time of colonization, like its a good thing, or something to take lightly. Quite frankly colonizing isnt funny in any shape or form and I, another dutch person feel ashamed and sorry for whoever took offense to the comment above. Not of all of us are like this.

    Our history books mostly skip over the warcrimes done in indonesia and how bad the slave trade is, but its luckily improving.

    For the guy above me;

    Warcrimes of the Dutch in Indonesia:

    youtu.be/8T3JZljI7A4?si=XvLOhL-m2VHkxByN

    How the dutch turned south africa into a racist country:

    youtu.be/Mi93LjuQbMM?si=1La19-xJ-JsBXLpZ

    Over half a million people got ripped away from their families and traded by the Dutch in the 1800s;

    statista.com/…/countries-most-active-trans-atlant…

    This is why I think it shouldnt be taken lightly. Its like a german joking about the time their ancestors murdered millions of jews and bringing it up whenever they see another German in a comment thread.

    barsoap,

    Its like a german joking about the time their ancestors murdered millions of jews and bringing it up whenever they see another German in a comment thread.

    Das tun wir tatsächlich nicht aber der Grund warum dein Fahrrad weg ist ist dass deine Mutter mir das aus Dankbarkeit geschenkt hat nachdem ich sie gefickt hab.

    Viking_Hippie,

    I remembered just enough of my school German to understand some of that but not enough to not wonder about someone’s mom taking their bicycle for “thank-work”, apparently 🤔

    BallsInTheShredder,

    Translate says " actually don’t but the reason your bike is gone is because your mother gave it to me out of gratitude after I fucked her."

    Viking_Hippie,

    Ah, I see that inflation is so bad in Germany that you guys have reverted to a barter economy! 😁

    barsoap,

    For the curious, the actual context

    BallsInTheShredder,

    Not from Germany but that’s a good comeback

    Viking_Hippie,

    Thanks 😁

    qaz,

    Je kan het hele ijsselmeer inpolderen met die muur tekst die je hebt geschreven

    saltesc,

    Go for it. Dutch seems easy. I learned the chorus to Super Max! in like thirty minutes.

    Omgarm,

    I made an account on feddit.nl to spread the load for Lemmy.world back in June. Good thing I keep switching between them both anyway.

    Hopefully this is solved soon!

    AncientFutureNow,

    Makes sense to me, I must confess.

    Tangent5280,

    Surrender your sins to the lord my child

    zoe,

    @jerry

    @shellsharks

    jerry,

    Done

    zoe,

    best admins in the fediverse ❤️

    freamon,

    They’ve already replied with the reasons, but - for future reference - if you want to see specifics of things like this, a censure is often posted to fediseer.com. .world’s censure of .nl is here

    antik,
    @antik@lemmy.world avatar

    Updated the original post. FYI You can click on the fediseer endorsement emblem that is in the Lemmy World sidebar. That will take you here: gui.fediseer.com/instances/detail/lemmy.world

    GONADS125,

    With the nature of the recent attacks I think it makes perfect sense to take strong precautions necessary to protect the community. Can always refederate when/if the admin gets ahold of the situation.

    antik,
    @antik@lemmy.world avatar

    For sure. We reached out before too but we can not sit around and wait when it’s about this stuff.

    kratoz29,

    Lemmy.world is still down often because DDOS attacks???

    antik,
    @antik@lemmy.world avatar

    No we’re talking about spam attacks. Trolls posting nsfw images to communities

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