May I interest you in a (not toilet) paper I skimmed back when Covid was still a bigger issue? doi.org/10.1063/5.0013318
In another, newer, paper (again, not the toilet kind of paper) I just found, researchers basically used lasers to see and analyze the spread of aerosol plumes after flushing: doi.org/10.1038/s41598-022-24686-5
I am not interested in your (not toilet) papers. I’ve been doing fine so far and I believe that the health benefit is negligible and does not outweigh the impact on my quality of life.
In other words sometimes ignorance is bliss and knowledge can be a curse, I’m not trying to be a neat freak germaphobe.
Ignorance won’t save you when that one lucky e coli lands on your toothbrush at just the right time. My parents survived leaded gas just fine, doesn’t mean that shit’s safe.
Well, you might be doing fine so far. How about others who walk into your poop-plumes? Hygiene is not always only beneficial for yourself. Some easy to implement practises can go a long way. I think it’s a similar story to how we (should) regularly wash our hands, wash vegetables and fruits before eating and so on.
Mythbusters found it makes virtually no difference, and lid down can actually make particles go further due to the pressure forcing them through a smaller gap.
They also, for some reason, last about 11minutes longer in the air when closed. The studies are misleading because they say there are fewer visible particles, but the bacteria count remains the same.
Yes, I followed the ones posted. None of them say the opposite, they all leave out the results from the lidded flushes. And someone else posted a paper that showed that although lid closed produced fewer particles, they were larger, and lasted longer, so flushing lid closed was not particularly more hygienic.
I’m not sure how this qualifies as being any better, I read this one previously and found it to be lacking in actual data information. It makes claims but literally anyone can write whatever they want on the Internet. It’s not enough data and not clear on how they actually measured or how many measurements they took
Although Mythbusters is not a peer reviewed scientific source, they do employ reasonable standards of experimentation.
And the first source you posted is particularly interesting, with similar conclusions to what I remember from Mythbusters; that lids reduce the total number of particles found, but that the particles produced from lid use last longer and are larger. So a lid closed situation can;t really be said to be more hygienic.
Unfortunately on a cursory skimming of the other articles none of them seem compare toilets with lid down to lid up, they all seem to look at lidless toilets only. Thus, they can;t really speak to the topic of lid use being more hygienic without the direct comparison.
Not how it works, sorry to tell you. In fact, putting the lid down means you are keeping those particles airborne for another 11 minutes or so due to increased pressure with the lid down.
Do you have a source? I googled it and every site listed said you should close the lid. The only one that didn’t was the New York Post, which is a famously inaccurate and overly contrarian news source.
People usually see the initial drop of visible particles to mean closing the lid is better but it just causes the mist to aerosol more into nano particles when the lid is closed. I don’t have the study itself handy at the moment, let me dig a bit more but I did find this article which was referencing similar findings. Let me try and find the paper itself though, but in the meantime here is a small except about the study from a site that was promoting the conference where it was presented at:
Nice way to conviently omit the next fucking bit of the article like Google does 🙄
However, use of the lid also increased the diameter and concentration of the bacteria in these droplets.
It was also found that airborne microdroplets were detected for 16 minutes after flushing the toilet with the lid down, 11 minutes longer than when the toilet was flushed with the lid up. The researchers suggest that this could be due to particles being re-aerosolised from surfaces rather than being created by the turbulence of the toilet flushing. Alternatively, the researchers suggest that airborne particles could stick together, or agglomerate, which would cause them to remain airborne for longer.
I.e droplets with more bacteria lingering around longer in the air and traveling further. The biggest risk with bacterial contamination is concentration, which this literally tells you is increased by putting down the lid as well as spreading further with a longer time airborne. But go on showing your lack of comprehension.
I’d say this is still up for debate. From the papers I skimmed it might be better to close the lid and open the windows. I discussed this in another comment here: feddit.de/comment/5298414
I have a solution to our hygiene problems, everyone: poop hoses. Dropping a spooky dookie into a bowl of water is outdated and gross. We can just attach a poop hose to our bee hinds and wham! Hygiene.
I think you’re expecting some women to show up and argue with you like this is drive time FM radio with Wacky Bob the DJ but all you’re going to get is dudes trying to act like they won because they get mad at the word hygiene and piss on the seat when they leave just to spite you.
Yes, when they leave. They won’t put the lid down without a gun to their heads, but they’ll hold one last bit of tinkle just for you.
This joke needs a more appropriate venue, is what I’m saying . Nobody here actually cares about the subject.
Plus if you drop anything in the bathroom and the lid is up it’s ending up in the toilet, learned that one morning when I was about to brush my teeth, that’s when I became a dedicated kid closer
I’m in sales myself and have always admired people that can close with such young markets. Your TEDx “Never Speak First” on power dynamic sales with preverbal toddlers was riveting, what other tricks have you learned to adapt with new generations?
“By the way, I’m not too sure if this deal will last until after your afternoon nappies, so you should probably think about when you’re gonna pick this up! I mean, what a waste it would be, right? Remember Mr. Sprinklemuffins?”
Especially common for public bathrooms in Asia and parts of Europe, specifically because there is no direct skin contact which reduces risk of infection. There are also claims that you poop easier squatting than sitting.
Hate to break it to you, toilets aren’t airtight. The particles go right out the side and tend to last longer in the air when the lid is down. It’s creates a reduction in visible particles as it seems the lid causes bigger particles to form so ergo less “visible particles” but they are just bigger and last longer for some reason versus the smaller ones. As has been demonstrated by the Mythbusters and many other studies, the biggest factor is having proper ventilation otherwise your gonna find shit particles everywhere regardless of if you close the lid or not.
The reduced airspeed of the shit particles thanks to the closed lid slows the buildup of shit particles on bathroom surfaces enough for my regular cleaning to be sufficient
How does flushing water create air pressure? Are you using a steam toilet? Are you acoustic?
Did you just try to call me dumb when you don’t understand physics?
Here’s a little science experiment and explanation for you:
Water in a toilet bowl first rises as the flush begins before it over comes the pressure in the drain trap. Close the lid, more air is squeezed out the sides of the toilet for a moment as that happens, leave the lid up and you have a larger volume for the air to be offset in. Don’t believe me, flush the toilet with the lid down, wet a finger with water slightly and put it near the opening between the lid and the bowl, you will feel it cool down from the air escaping. Do the same now with the lid open and you will notice this effect less. Obviously do this with a clean toilet and wash your hands afterwards but you will notice the pressure difference in the beginning.
I just did this experiment with a lighter held next to the seat gap, which is a simple but sensitive test of boundary air displacement, and there was zero movement. This is complete nonsense.
This would be a good experiment for Myth busters. I’d imagine that with the lid closed the increase in pressure would not be significant and the air particles would be accelerated more horizontally as opposed to vertically. This would, theoretically, cause them to accumulate more on surfaces below countertop level than above.
But that applies to most commercial toilets with high flow rate. Most home toilets don’t do much more than let gravity do the work. There’s no aerosolized particles, just a few splashes or droplets that may escape
Home toilets use the bowl filling up to create a siphon through the drain trap. For that to work your toilet must first raise the water level above the top of the trap to create the pressure with its weight to start the siphon. I.e with the lid closed you are forcing more air to compress in a smaller volume generating a pressure difference outside the bowl and internally. Leave the lid open and that volume of air goes directly into the room without much resistance creating less pressure in the bowl compared to the surrounding air in the room. Hence with the lid open the distance, the spray travels is lower as it has a lower velocity.
That air pressure doesn’t mean anything without aerosolized particles. High rate commercial toilets create those particles and spew them out at like 6 ft/sec. Draining the tank into the bowl does not create much except maybe a few larger droplets once the drain takes most of the contents that can’t go as far, and that is mitigated by closing the lid.
Correct which is why in addition studies show that having the lid down increases the concentration of those aerosolized bacteria and increases the distanced traveled while also allowing them to linger in the air for up to 11minutes longer. The lid down causes the particles to break up into nano particles which are not visible, but linger longer and spread farther.
A shared university toilet can still be part of a house or low pressure system. I’ve yet to see public restrooms which had a lid for the toilet itself, outside of low pressure toilets in communal housing. If you can link to where they clarified the shared university toilet was high pressure, I will stand corrected.
Honestly don’t worry, as Mythbusters pointed out that neither are a health concern due to the low concentration relatively speaking and if anything it helps your immune system build up defenses against E coli and the like. Just know lid up during your flush means the sent lingers less. Then after the flush I would advise closing the lid to keep any lingering sent in the air of the toilet bowl and less likely to be disturbed by any airflow in the room. Just don’t like seeing misleading info spread around as honestly the science behind it is pretty interesting.
Just don’t like seeing misleading info spread around as honestly the science behind it is pretty interesting.
I don’t want to step on your toes, so hopefully this doesn’t come across that way:
You mentioned Myth Busters and an article from 2019 on microbiologyresearch.com in another comment .
Let’s just say without further elaboration, that Myth Busters are not a solid scientific source.
I couldn’t really find a paper from the article you linked in another comment. Just this: microbiologyresearch.org/…/acmi.fis2019.po0192
I don’t know whether it’s an issue with the website, but currently I can’t see much else besides some text which sounds like an abstract. This makes it currently difficult to see this as a good source or estimate the quality of the work. Judging on this abstract alone, although it mentions that the time particles are detectable is about 10 minutes longer with the lid down, it also reports a 30 to 50 % decreased amount of particles. It also states a lack of research regarding smaller particles.
As far as I can see we could safely say, that this issue, whether it’s better to keep the lid up or down, is still debated and a final verdict is still out:
For reducing visible particles, not the nano particles which have a higher concentration. Regardless it’s all kinda moot as neither produce levels of bacteria that could realistically get you sick unless you stick your face above the bowl or to the side openings by the lid while flushing and that person has an infecfion. Just wanted to clarify the science behind it.
The highlighted section of that link reads as follows:
The research found that putting the toilet lid down reduced the number of both visible and smaller droplets during and after flushing by 30-60%. However, use of the lid also increased the diameter and concentration of the bacteria in these droplets.
The article doesn’t indicate whether the total bacteria contained in the now larger and more concentrated droplets is thought to be comparable to that contained in the full spray of open-lid droplets, which means a precise comparison isn’t available, so technically I guess it could go either way. However, common sense tells us that many of those microorganisms will either get stuck to the underside of the lid or fall back into the water, so it seems nearly impossible that closed-lid flushing could spray 100% of the microorganisms that open-lid flushing does, right? So if the best (seemingly unlikely) scenario for open-lid flushing is that maybe it only sprays the exact same number of farticles into the air, then what’s the appeal?
That’s not making sense to me. Would you be willing to find your sources? Larger particles would not spend more time in the air as far as I know. It’s almost like you’re claiming it’s better to sneeze wild straight out everywhere instead of into your elbow, handkerchief, or tissue.
The meme is making it look like seat down is presumptuous, which it is not. It has the least effort vs hygiene trade-off, since sitting to pee is much more hygienic.
I agree, and I propose a second reason: it is too easy (for my dumb self, at least) to not realize the seat is up, try to sit down, and go for an unexpected swim
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