"Linux Desktop: A Collective Delusion" - an unhinged rant

AI_toothbrush, 8 months ago

Basically all this is bs. The truth is: switching os’ is always hard but if you grow up with one(like me who started with linux and didnt try windows until the age of 15) and only use that one ecosystem its easier. Also according to my grandma(her laptop was really slow so we tried linux on it) manjaro is easier to use than windows…

Crozekiel, 8 months ago

This is really and truly terrible all around. Firstly, its a link to a website talking about a post on Lemmy... Why the hell is this just not a post? Why do we need an external website for this terrible excuse for "an article"? Secondly, the writing is terribly done with poorly reasoned arguments and a lot of just plain wrong information. It is yet another example of someone that tried switching to Linux once, sucked at it, and decided that everyone here in the Linux communities must just be lying about having no issues using linux and they should come here to the Linux communites to tell us to stop and we can't do what we already do every damn day. Jesus, it seems like half of the posts in any Linux community on Lemmy is people that don't use Linux telling everyone how bad Linux is and how great windows is... wtf guys.

Haui, 8 months ago

Its people being people I guess. They’re all weird. Some good weird, some bad weird. Thank you for taking the time to critique the article so I don’t need to read it. :)

southsamurai, 8 months ago

The fuck?

I am the average user. Linux is, and has been since at least 2012 when I started using it, been absurdly easy to install. You can get instructions for it in seconds, follow the directions, and you’re done in twenty-odd minutes. And I mean done as in you can do any of the basics the average user needs to do. If you wanna tweak things, that’s longer, but still as easy as windows (or easier in some aspects).

My fucking mom can handle a mint install, and she’s an idiot in regards to computers.

user224, 8 months ago

When I got my first computer I went with Linux Mint because I needed some OS. I have also tried Windows 10, but I found the settings too confusing. Control panel, settings, each somewhat linking to one another instead of being fully completed.

So, yeah, I went with Mint because it was easier to use. I have tried Windows later again, but I am just not used to it.

taladar, 8 months ago

However, there are still individuals perpetuating a delusion: that desktop Linux is as user-friendly and productive as its mainstream counterparts.

Couldn’t agree more. We need to get rid of that stupid idea that Windows or macOS are anywhere near as productive as Linux.

Hairyblue, 8 months ago

I switched to Linux/Ubuntu when I found out all of my Steam games work on Linux. I was shocked but it was true. I heard there are a few games that don't work because of EAC but I don't have any of those. I even added all my non steam games to steam and they work. Even Project 1999 works, Baldur's Gate 1, and 2 works...and works very well. I am playing the newest games too like Baldur's Gate 3 and Lords of the Fallen on max settings with my XBox controller.

My PC and I think a lot of people's PC are used for gaming. Now I also installed Google Chrome when I did have to do some business. I was able to make Office friendly files for my resume and PDFs with Google docs. When I did need to do some graphic work I used gimp. Ubuntu saw my Brother network printer and I printed what I needed.

I am sure there are people who need software that will not work on Linux, but a lot of people could use Linux for their everyday PC use. Most people game or use the web browser.

ExLisper, 8 months ago

I said it before and I will said it again: fuck off with the constant “Linux is not ready to go mainstream”. Who cares? There will always be some software that doesn’t support Linux and there will always be people who will prefer Windows. The goal was never to move everyone to Linux or create a OS perfect for everyone. The goal was to for Linux not to die because of shady MS practices, lack of HW support, DRM and proprietary standards. Guess what? Linux is not going anywhere now. We won. We can talk about something else now.

h3ndrik, 8 months ago

Generally speaking, Linux is already mainstream on most things except for the desktop. And I’d agree, perhaps we don’t want to be mainstream anyways.

ExLisper, 8 months ago

I wouldn’t say that we don’t want to, just that it was never the true objective. 20 years ago to goal was to make Linux just popular enough so that big corporations would stop ignoring or directly fighting it. There was a real danger that MS will convince PC manufactures to lock the bootloaders, most websites will run only on IE and Linux will not have drivers for most devices. I could end up just like all the opensource phone OSes: few supported devices, few contributors and few users. But we managed. Most big corporations now actively support Linux and Linux has support for most devices. I would like to see more articles acknowledging this win and less articles saying that “still non everyone loves Linux”.

CrabAndBroom, 8 months ago

Windows licenses are cheap and you get things working out of the box. Software runs fine, all vendors support whatever you’re trying to do and you’ll be productive from day zero. There are annoyances from time to time, sure, but they’re way fewer and simpler to deal with than the hoops you’ve to go through to get a minimal and viable/productive Linux desktop experience.

It all comes down to a question of how much time (days? months?) you want spend fixing things on Linux that simply work out of the box under Windows for a minimal fee. Buy a Windows license and spend the time you would’ve spent dealing with Linux issues doing your actual job and you’ll, most likely, get a better ROI.

This is wild lol.

On my dual-boot machine, I once had to spend an hour on the phone with Microsoft because I put in a new GPU and Windows decided that meant it was installed on the wrong PC and locked me out of it.

I’ve had my printer for years and it still doesn’t work properly on Windows. It prints, but it fucks up in subtle ways constantly such as setting the print scale to 100% which prints slightly larger. My SO prints sewing patterns so this can actually be a big fuck up.

I had to do a registry edit in Windows to get the fucking clock to display the correct time.

It can’t even turn off properly. About 40% of the time when I shut it down from Windows it’ll wait about 30 seconds and then turn back on again.

When I boot it from Linux, none of these things are issues and it just behaves like a normal computer.

asexualchangeling, 8 months ago

Ahem, normal computer would be windows, it functions better than a normal computer

/s

taladar, 8 months ago

A normal computer is a computer that is perpendicular to a plane.

TCB13, 8 months ago

Well at least you spent an hour on the phone and got it fixed. If you had the same issue under Linux it would be days of compiling stuff and most likely having to wait for the next big release to get it fixed. Meanwhile zero work done :)

Also your hardware must be really awkward / fucked up / old… because if every Windows installation behaved like that then entire countries would not work at all.

madmaurice, 8 months ago

“INStallINg VirtUalBOx is hARd” is quite a statement when you choose like the most difficult way to do it…

jsdz, 8 months ago

Laptop computers have made significant strides, and in 2023, they’re better than ever. However, there are still individuals perpetuating a delusion: That a powerful gaming laptop is as user-friendly and productive as the Apple iPad, which is what everyone should obviously be using. After a few discussions on Lemmy, I believe it’s important to provide a clear review of where these fancy “laptop” computers fall short as daily drivers for normal people like me.

PC gaming laptops will, most, likely, fail, for:

• People who need the App Store
• People that want everything to work exactly like it does on the iPad
• Anyone who wants a simple way to install Angry Birds without trying to use needlessly complicated things such as a mouse and keyboard
• Apple apps that won’t run because you bought a non-Apple laptop
• The performance overhead of that extra complexity costs at least 5-15% of what you’d otherwise expect from such a powerful machine
• People who need to run FaceTime and whose friends won’t consider any alternatives outside the Apple way of life
• Serious scientific labs with policies that require iPad-only data acquisition
• Musicians, artists, and customer service agents who’ve built their whole careers around iPad-only software
• Developers and sysadmins, because you’re probably administering Apple systems for which the iPad is indispensible

Laptop computers are great, I love them but I don’t sugar coat it and I’m not delusional like you.

If one lives in a bubble and doesn’t to collaborate with other Apple iPad users then PC latop apps might work and might even deliver a decent workflow. But once you’ve got to work with other iPad users it’s “game over” — the “alternatives” just aren’t up to it.

iPads aren’t that expensive and they work right out of the box. Software runs fine, everything on the App Store is supported whatever you’re trying to do and you’ll be productive from day zero. There are annoyances from time to time, sure, but they’re way fewer and simpler to deal with than the hoops you’ve to go through to get a minimal and viable/productive laptop computer experience.

It all comes down to a question of how much time (days? months? aeons?) you want to spend fiddling with a mouse and keyboard to set up things which simply work out of the box on the Apple iPad for a minimal fee. Buy an iPad! You know it’s the only sensible thing to do and the ROI will be fantastic!

You can buy a second-hand iPad for around €4 that comes with everything you’ll need. And every iPad comes with IOS for no extra charge, so why wait? Buy it! Buy it now!

“They hated him because he spoke the truth. I can’t even get “simple” apps like Apple iMove to run on my PC. And there’s some kind of “video card driver” that needs “updating”? No sane person could ever cope with this. No amount of googling or even the fabled tech support genuis of “chatgpt” was able to help me. It just won’t work. This whole Internet is delusional, if they think that laptop computers are usable for the average Joe and I’m an Apple iPad expert so I know what I’m talking about. It’s too much hassle. I just want to get things done.” — Average Joe

Still thinking that 2023 is the year of the laptop computer? Think again. The Apple iPad is all the computing you will ever need.

h3ndrik, 8 months ago

🏆

TCB13, 8 months ago

The thing with what you posted is that… none of it is wrong if you value iPad-style user-friendly above all. In the say way I value productivity and not having waste time fixing stuff that works out of the box under Windows.

h3ndrik, 8 months ago

People who need MS Office because once you have to collaborate with others Open/Libre/OnlyOffice won’t cut it;

The average user doesn’t need specifically MS Office. But if they do, they do.

password manager via flatpak only

Use (always) your package manager. The trend of using Flatpak has severe downsides as you pointed out.

Virtualbox […] GNOME Boxes

Use libvirt and the virt-manager UI

Adobe apps won’t run properly

Might as well be the case. I haven’t tried.

Gamers because of the reasons above plus a flat 5-15% performance hit

My experience is the other way around.

old software / games because not even those will run properly on Wine

Old games don’t run on a recent Windows either. I’ve tried.

electrical engineers as typical toolsets

If you need specific proprietary tools, you might need Windows or Wine. Depends on the specific use-case. But the ‘average user’ we’re talking about isn’t an electrical engineer. If you’re a student, try KiCad it’s not Eagle but it is something.

specialized hardware

You need specialized software along with the specialized hardware. Again, more niche than ‘average user’.

AutoCAD isn’t available

Same. If you need special software, you need special software. It’s arguable if the ‘average user’ needs exactly that. Special needs might render Linux unusable in your situation.

Finding a properly working FTP/SFTP/FTPS desktop client

My file manager does this. And it’s more like the windows people do their webdev. I rarely work like this. I don’t have a need for WinSCP on my desktop but webdev works fine.

Why do most people use Linux instead of Windows to host their servers, then? Why is almost all of the web powered by Linux if Windows is better? All the devs and sysops wrong? AWS? Almost all cloud services?

Software runs fine, all vendors support whatever you’re trying to do and you’ll be productive from day zero.

Really? I need to throw away printers because people update their Windows and the printer has no drivers available for the new Windows version. Printers stop after a service pack got rolled out and need fixing. People have Ransomware sent to them. Graphics drivers and sound drivers sometimes do silly stuff and don’t detect the headphone plug properly. HDMI doesn’t switch over to the projector. All sorts of small annoyances and they happen regularly.

It all comes down to a question of how much time (days? months?) you want spend fixing things on Linux

Agree. If you learned Windows and have no idea of Linux, you’d have to learn this now. It takes time. If you had learned Linux, you’d know where the logfiles are and you’d struggle with Windows. Sometimes learning new things (properly) is a good things. Sometimes you can’t be bothered or lack time to do it.

TL:DR; the Linux experience might be great but it isn’t for everyone and anyone. If you need to do your job without small annoyances that will curb your productivity it isn’t, most likely, for you.

The ‘average user’ doesn’t need all the specific tools in exactly that version. The average user needs an office suite and a browser, not Eagle and Adobe. If you live in one ecosystem and have to share stuff with your colleagues, you live in that ecosystem. I agree. I have far less issues with my linux machines and debugging is so much easier with them than the Windows machines and servers I had. It’s sometimes been days of trial and error to tackle problems there while Linux usually has good debug messages available instead of ‘Error 33492, program closed.’

The average user needs a stable and user-respecting system that get’s out of the way. They need Office, a browser, E-Mail, a network-share and a working printer. All the specific tools and WinSCPs and so on are additional knowledge you learned during your times with Windows, while the average user struggles with their Antivirus. I agree, it’s more complicated for you if you have 10+ years of windows experience and now try to apply it 1:1 to Linux. It doesn’t work this way.

(My general advice is: If you want it 100% like Windows: Use Windows.)

qwesx, 8 months ago

try KiCad it’s not Eagle

And that's a good thing, according to my MSc. in Electronics colleague. We replaced EAGLE with KiCad a few years ago because it's just a better product ever since CERN essentially took over development.

TCB13, 8 months ago

Why do most people use Linux instead of Windows to host their servers, then?

Because Linux is good at that, well supported at that and the people use it. When it comes to the desktop is the exact same opposite. That’s kind of the point of the entire thing, Linux is great at certain things but certainly not as a desktop because it fails for all those use cases that compose the majority of what people do.

h3ndrik, 8 months ago

Linux is great at certain things but certainly not as a desktop because it fails for all those use cases that compose the majority of what people do.

I’d have to disagree. I use it exclusively and it’s awesome. My dad uses it and my mom has for quite some years. I know dozens of people who use wildly different distributions for all kinds of stuff. I think it’d be the same for the majority of people if it came with their Laptops and Chromebooks.

qwesx, 8 months ago

I like how the majority of the list is "stuff that doesn't exists on Linux can't be properly used on Linux". Yeah, no fucking shit, Sherlock.
I also like how it's supposed to be about the "average user" and then lists a ton of stuff that's only used in niche applications when put in relation to the entire desktop market.

Additionally:

People that run old software / games because not even those will run properly on Wine;

A good amount of old games won't run properly on Windows anymore, either.

I can't see any of the downvotes that DerisionConsulting mentioned, possibly because I'm on kbin, but I can absolutely understand why people would downvote this completely braindead article that doesn't mention a lot of the actual issues (i.e. hardware compatibility on laptops, friction from the slow transition from X to Wayland, inconsistent user interfaces, updates breaking stuff on some distros, ...).

Dariusmiles2123, 8 months ago

It may be true for some professional applications but Linux fits really fine in my life and would also fit really fine in most of my family’s life if they had the courage to get rid of windows.

About gaming, I don’t know, but most people just use their computer for browsing and administrative tasks so they should be okay.

BolexForSoup, 8 months ago

Those of us in media production simply can’t use Linux. We use too many complicated programs by major companies that are not native to Linux.

Corngood, 8 months ago

Linux desktop will, most likely, fail for: […]

• Developers and sysadmins, because not everyone is using Docker and Github actions to deploy applications to some proprietary cloud solution. Finding a properly working FTP/SFTP/FTPS desktop client (similar WinSCP or Cyberduck) is an impossible task as there a few, but they all fail even at basic stuff like dragging and dropping a file.

This can’t be serious.

giacomo, 8 months ago

It’s true, this has been an issue that has stumped developers and sysadmins for decades. They cannot function without WinSCP!

This author be trollin.

iHUNTcriminals, 8 months ago

Was it some being malicious with ai?

vzq, 8 months ago

I mean, sshfs is RIGHT THERE.

CrabAndBroom, 8 months ago

This one too:

Linux desktop will, most likely, fail for:

People that just installed a password manager (KeePassXC) and a browser (Firefox/Ungoogled) via flatpak only to find out that the KeePassXC app can’t communicate with the browser extension because people are “beating around the bush” on GitHub instead of fixing the issue;

Desktop Linux is a failure because this one specific thing doesn’t work right now in only the Flatpak version of this one specific application. Good thing every Windows app has 100% functionality and works perfectly as soon as it’s released lol.

huskypenguin, 8 months ago

What if you wanted to use 1pass or LastPass? They work flawlessly as browser extensions.

mercury, 8 months ago

+1 for bitwarden!

walthervonstolzing, 8 months ago

I was about to quote the same.

… I mean, when you’re this clueless, maybe don’t put out ‘articles’ for others to read – it’s wasting everyone’s time.

I thought the title of this article was intriguing; because in the Linux community certain aspects of the desktop experience do get hyped; & there’s a tendency in general to sweep various usability issues under the rug, with the unwarranted confidence that we’re already “better than everyone else” in every way; though the article doesn’t address any of those.

lolcatnip, 8 months ago

I’ve tried software development in Windows multiple times, last time for over a year. It feels like trying to code with broken fingers. WSL makes it tolerable, but I don’t think that counts as developing in Windows anymore.

Vendetta9076, 8 months ago

…Im in sysadmin and github actions are like, 90% of my job.

And filezilla works like a charm. The fuck are they talking about.

irmoz, 8 months ago

Yes this article is absolute trash

Not sure why my post was downvoted so much, just wanted us all to enjoy laughing at its absurdity

Jorgelino, 8 months ago

I’m pretty sure the average person wouldn’t even be able to tell the difference between something like mint and windows.

Linux is as user-friendly as the user wants it to be.

caseyweederman, 8 months ago

Sometimes Teams sends audio to the wrong device at work and I think “why am I so hard on Linux when Windows can’t get it right even with all of Microsoft’s resources”

DerisionConsulting, 8 months ago

Not sure why this is was down-voted.
I don’t agree with some points on the list, but if you need propriety software for your job, Linux may not be the easiest choice.

dotslashme, 8 months ago

Most likely because the term ‘Linux desktop’ is ambivalent. Are you talking about DE’s or WM’s? Are you looking at GNOME or KDE?

h3ndrik, 8 months ago

Mmmh. ‘Linux desktop’ means a computer powered by (GNU+)Linux that is used as a workstation. For example in an office or at home where someone sits in front of it and does something with it. In contrast to a server or an embedded device (or arguably a phone or a gaming console). It doen’t necessarily mean you need an GUI or a specific one.

h3ndrik, 8 months ago

Probably because this is the only claim with some substance to it. But there are like 15 more claims in the article that a just wrong.

TCB13, 8 months ago

I guess that 80% of the claims on the post are, in some way, that “only claim with some substance to it” in different contexts / people / workplaces.

TCB13, 8 months ago

Well who doesn’t require some kind of propriety software for their job? The big problem is collaboration and as someone said, if everyone is into a propriety solution and you’re on an alternative you’re going to have a bad time.