We really need to change our culture to support mass transit and pedestrians more. I live in a town with fantastic bus service and extensive pedestrian infrastructure, and people in my apartment complex DRIVE THEIR CARS to a gas station/liquor store they could throw a snowball to. Hell, I’ve seen people make a longer walk to their car than it would’ve taken to get to their destination.
This is a huge point. The other considerations are: EVs are balls expensive compared to ICE counterparts and often require $500-2k worth of electrical work at your house (assuming you even own it) to put in a charger. If you live in an apartment, good luck.
And oh, btw, the chargers aren’t standard. Each charging site has different plugs, apps you have to download, etc. Then there is the lack of charging stations that highlights the range anxiety people have with EVs.
Adoption would be so much faster if EVs cost $15-25k and there were adequate standardized charging options available.
This is kind of true. A lot of the maintenance requirements for ICE vehicles is not needed for EVs. So you save money on things like oil changes and if you can charge at home then charging is probably cheaper than gas. But that battery probably needs to be replaced after about 5 years and that is a very expensive maintenance cost.
No oil, timing belt, transmission. EVs are incredibly simple vehicles. Many years ago Tesla wanted a million mile battery, they are constantly getting better.
My 5 year estimate may actually be outdated already fortunately. First article popup about it shows 8 to 12 years now depending on the company and battery type. This is actually fantastic to see that as I was quite worried the tech would stagnate eventually.
I have a 2015 leaf and while the estimated battery range has gone from 90’s to 60’s on mileage, it’s still kicking and gets me around the city just fine.
That might be true for older cars that didn’t have good thermal management systems (like the old Nissan leaf) but not true anymore. Electric car batteries now regularly reach over 100k miles with only small degradation. If you baby it, it seems that 200k miles with only 10% range loss is to be expected now
I have a 2016 leaf. I’ve changed the tires. That’s the maintenance. It’s like $3 to ‘fill’, and that’s about the same as three gallons of ICE distance.
The battery is around 90% of what I bought it at.
I have yet to hit any of the problems people are afraid of, but I might just be lucky.
Yep these are all true points, but not unexpected as with any innovation. Just like how computers were immensely expensive, and without standards for decades.
EVs are relatively new in the scope of technology. Capitalism just wants to make you think it’s an issue. In reality this is gonna take time and lack the profits every company is striving for, which to them is a failure.
Yeah so I looked into this little while ago and I own my own house so in theory I can put the box in. The problem is I only have on the street parking and the house is set back away from the road and there’s a garden between the road in the house.
So how the bleeding hell am I supposed to charge a car? I’d have to run a long cable through the garden, over the fence, over the pedestrian walkway, over the grass verge and to the car. Someone is going to trip over it and then think they can sue me.
Or the government could just install a street furniture like they do parking metres, but I have no way to force them to do that.
So how the bleeding hell am I supposed to charge a car? I’d have to run a long cable through the garden
Personally I’d replace part of the garden with a driveway and parking space. Sure, it’s ugly. But it’s what billions of people around the world have.
Or the government could just install a street furniture like they do parking metres, but I have no way to force them to do that.
Most cities have a plan to do that (though it might just be a plan, with no funding allocated yet)… But there are challenges - in particular vandalism. They have been more successful/cheaper to maintain (and more likely to actually work when you park there) at locations with 24/7 security guards and quick police response times.
They also prioritise short term daytime parking as it’s better to charge EVs when direct solar is available - far cheaper than other power source (except hydro, but hydro generally can’t produce enough power). And they prioritise somewhere like a shopping district where you might only park for 45 minutes allowing dozens of people to charger their car per day instead of just one overnight. Shopping districts are also setup to prevent vandalism as well (and prevention is cheaper than repairs).
Every shopping mall in my city already has a parking spaces where you can charge an EV. In fact it’s often free (or at least, included in the price of parking at the mall). It works well enough but it’s never going to be as convenient as charging at home… those parking spaces are nearly always empty in my city, even though they’re free people would rather pay for the convenience of charging overnight.
Personally I’d replace part of the garden with a driveway and parking space.
Well I don’t really want to have to do that if I can help it because if I did that I wouldn’t really have a garden anymore, but also I don’t think I can anyway because there’s a grass verge and I don’t think I own that, I think the city does, and I would have to pull that up to lay the driveway.
But also if I rented I wouldn’t be able to do any of that anyway so they still need to go the street furniture route. I don’t think vandalisms are particular problem because if they put down load of them they just become common and people would ignore them. Also it’s a housing street, it’s not a random street in the city so the only people around here are people who live around here and vandalising your own stuff seems pretty dumb. I’m sure it’ll happen but I don’t think it’ll be a major problem.
Every shopping mall in my city already has a parking spaces where you can charge an EV.
In my experiences usually some prick with a pickup truck in them. Apparently it’s actually a offence to park in them if you don’t have an electric vehicle, but have yet to see the law enforce. One time I saw a cop parked in one so, there you go.
Personally? I’d have an electrician install a standing charger by the curb. I might end up doing that if my wife switches to a plug in hybrid next year.
I’m not sure how that’ll work with the easement though. But that’s future me’s problem.
You can charge any of them off a standard socket, so no, just no faster rate charging at the house.
Having a dedicated circuit installed with materials for the wire, breaker fuse, and conduit was $600 including electrician labor.
There is a universal charging standard. The ONLY company that doesn’t follow it is Tesla, but they too can use the universal chargers which also have multiple plug heads to use at source or you can carry one in your vehicle.
As for the lack of charging stations, you obviously don’t own an EV. The sheer mass of stations makes it possible to drive from 29 palms to Manhattan without worry. The cars will auto-add and find them for you on your route, and tell you which you need to hit with what charge time. You can even filter on types and cheatgrass rates for them to calculate your trip. This of all the things you stated is a tribal non issue that only gets even less with time.
There is a huge problem with charging but electrical connections and smart circuit load balanced charging at various times on the grid is easily doable in the time ranges of adoption we are seeking. There is a current chicken and the egg problem where government doesn’t invest in massive infrastructure because private companies haven’t crossed the tipping point on making it their primary focus… who haven’t done so because their customers lack the charging infrastructure and so around around it goes.
Having governmental targets like California’s are ways to break that cycle and force investment that makes public infrastructure changes viable to due to economies of scale.
the chargers aren’t standard. Each charging site has different plugs
IDK where you’re from, but in europe it’s all standardized and all cars, regardless of brand, use the same plug for both AC and DC charging. The whole app/rfid tag mess is true though.
Very much this. Lithium batteries are the best battery we’ve got (at manufacturing scale) so far in terms of energy storage density, but the best we’ve got isn’t very good.
Gasoline has an energy storage density of around 13 MJ/kg. That’s a ton of energy, so much so that a vehicle can waste most of it generating so much heat that we have to bolt on a cooling system (with the associated weight) and still have enough to go highway speeds for hundreds of miles on a quantity of fuel weighing less than one of the passengers.
Toyota loves hydrogen because it’s got a storage density slightly higher than gasoline. Hydrogen has some serious volume and storage issues, but the density is there.
Contrast that with lithium ion batteries at ~0.7 MJ/kg (for the really good ones, which usually aren’t used in cars). Less waste heat, to be sure, but the bulk of the vehicles weight, the main factor in speed and travel distance, is the insane amount of material necessary to store the “fuel”.
Electric motors are far more efficient than ICE, but we need orders-of-magnitude improvements in battery storage density before EV can really take advantage of the greater efficiency. Until then manufacturers don’t have a choice, EV will be heavy and thus expensive.
Hydrogen cars are basically EVs without the giant battery. So it neatly avoids the huge cost and weight problem. Which is why Toyota thinks they are the future.
Trade shipping is incredibly efficient when it comes to moving large quantities of goods. Transportation, as a whole, consumes about a quarter of the world’s energy output. Meanwhile industry verges on near 60%. A large portion of that is refining and manufacturing coupled with new construction.
While I understand that people’s immediate reaction is that we need more EVs or, on the extreme end, somehow restrict cars. People also need to understand that’s not the sector that is going to have the most corrective impact on the coming climate disasters.
It’s already hard to convince people to use EVs, convincing them to use public transportation is even harder. It’s completely understandable why they don’t want to use public transportation tho: it kinda sucks in most countries. Here in germany it’s simply unreliable. If you use it to get to work, you can expect to get there late quite frequently and the same goes for the way home. Fixing the issues public transportation has and making cities less car dependent takes time and we don’t really have that much anymore. EVs aren’t perfect but it’s a compromise.
If you want to talk about real solutions to climate change I wouldn’t aim as consumer facing things like cars or household recycling. That’s all BS to make people focus on what their role in it is to distract from the fact that the vast majority of emissions come from things like:
Industrial and manufacturing processes Electricity and heat generation Transportation (with vast majority being bunker fueled chips, and agriculture.
Me getting 25mpg versus 30 ain’t moving the needle on the emissions numbers the same way moving to renewables for electricity generation and eliminating shipping emissions would. Or mitigating agricultural emissions which produces tons of the worst kinds of greenhouse gasses (methan and nitrous oxide).
And then we have fugative emissions from unintentional leaks or more accurately irresponsible processes and maintenance from things like fracking, oil/gas extraction and transport. Quite literally just drilling into gas and releasing it into the air.
But yea, my Honda is the problem.
I’m not saying everyone has a part to play, but don’t let the arguments and focus be on anything other than the big culprits of greenhouse gas emissions. We could pass meaningful regulations and provide meaningful incentives and actually move the needle on green house gasses.
Industrial and manufacturing processes Electricity and heat generation Transportation (with vast majority being bunker fueled chips, and agriculture.
Unfortunately I don’t run an industrial manufacturing process or shipping company… so there’s not much I can do there other than prefer to buy products/services that involve fewer emissions.
I’ve installed solar on my home… and some day I’ll probably add a battery (when they’re cheaper), but that’s about all I can do.
So for me at least, this stuff isn’t a huge priority. I’m already doing everything I can.
Me getting 25mpg versus 30 ain’t moving the needle on the emissions
Huh? That’s almost a 20% reduction in your vehicle emissions and private transport is a major contributor to greenhouse gasses. It’d definitely “move the needle”.
I’m not saying everyone has a part to play
I am. Might be a small part for some, but it’s a part. It could be as simple as using LED lighting instead of incandescents (10x lower emissions, and 10x lower power bill) or cooking with induction instead of gas (4x lower emissions, boils water 2x faster, and cheaper though how much depends on your gas prices).
Those two changes I suggested don’t even cost any money. They save money.
A lot of other changes also save money - green hydrogen, for example, was $4/kg two years ago and is $3/kg today… it was projected to be cheaper than gas some time between 2027 and 2040… but thanks to Russia’s war it’s already cheaper than gas now in some parts of the world. Suddenly the industry is scrambling to accelerate that transition.
The liquid natural gas industry has no long term future and not because of emissions - it’s just not going to be const competitive for much longer.
Well, one can attempt to make it easier going forward but this isn’t sim city where you can just demolish your entire infrastructure and remake it to suit your needs.
Doing so will take decades to even start to have an impact on personal vehicle usage. Decades we don’t really have.
I’m not really saying it can be done overnight. But imagine if all the money (heck even half the money) that went into trying to build electric cars went into building some good transit systems supported by strong transit oriented design. It would have done way more to tackle climate change than making cars EVs. It’s a long term process but one that far more likely to make a difference than EVs.
We used to lift cities up to support sewer systems and now adding relatively simple infrastructure seems out of reach. Neoliberalism has completely ruined our ability to invest in public infrastructure
Similar to a headline that says “Food products not working”, without mentioning escalating costs for the average person. Those that could afford and early adopters are limited.
It still hasn’t been ordered, because the manufacturer won’t permit the dealership to order any, and is barely shipping any to Canada, even though they advertise it as their flagship EV.
Meanwhile, lots in the US are full of unsold units.
Typical misleading headline from pro-profiteering Business Insider on an article about how charging too much while people are suffering extreme inflation isn’t a great idea but the self-serving execs are blaming the very concept of an alternative to killing millions of people a year 🤬
The problem is that small cars are unpopular in the US, they are available in Europe but the majority would not buy them in the US. Once you make the car bigger it gets heavier and you need more battery to give it the same range as a small car, and as the battery is one of the most expensive components on an EV its going to boost the price quite dramatically.
Europe has brand new EVs from £8k, but they are tiny city cars. Small hatchbacks are low £20ks now, and with the way finance works in Western Europe the monthly is not that much, starting at low £200 per month. Its not till you get to what would be a very large SUV in Europe do you start to get to the £1k+ mark per month, or what the US would call a mid sized SUV. That’s the penalty of demanding a 2.5 to 3 ton EV.
Used you can pick up small hatchbacks from £5k now, but there just isn’t the availability of large cars (or US mid sized) to make the used market viable for those on smaller budgets.
If they would sell in decent numbers they would sell them as the manufacturer makes the most on new and nearly new cars that are still being sold/serviced by a main dealer, this is also capitalism.
Once a cheap (ish) car hits a certain age the manufacturer makes diminishing amounts. In Europe they would rather sell you a brand new small car than you buy a used bigger car they will not make anywhere near a much on.
If Musk delivers on the Model 2 for the US market then I think we will see some real movement in the US, but till then things like the VW Golf just do not sell. I think they sold 2.5m Golfs in total in the US, UK has around a million still on the road, a country with about 20% of the population.
Nah dude, I’m seeing the same shit here in EU. they are not selling the small cars, like you cannot buy stuff that is supposedly on the catalogue. But you can finance this 3ton monstrosity that costs double of what you’re looking for easy peasy.
Somebody has one of those near me, its not actually that big, plus not all Yaris come as the crossover, at least in the UK. The crossover is 4.1m long and about 1.7m wide, its only 15cm longer and about 10cm wider than the standard Yaris, and again, optional.
If you want properly small then get a Citroen Ami. Otherwise the Fiat 500e is about 3.5m long and 1.5m wide, this is the same as its always been, this is still noticeably smaller than a Golf mark 1 from the 70s.
People have always hated small cars. They suck ass for families and I’m not sure where everyone forgot that. People did choose small cars, it’s what they could afford. Then for the last 7 years you could get basically free financing and it was suddenly affordable.
The Honda Accord, the most popular sedan of the sentry is only 4 inches shorter in 95 than my 21 outback. 188 vs 191.5 inches.
Its not till you get to what would be a very large SUV in Europe do you start to get to the £1k+ mark per month, or what the US would call a mid sized SUV
Driving a Mercedes EQB and paying ~£600 per month, due to banks here in Denmark making low interest car loans on EVs.
UK is particularly fucked at the moment for car loan pricing since Liz Truss massively accelerated interest rate rises they have become noticeably more expensive.
Bullshit. They make expensive electric cars because thats where the money was. Here in the eu tons of people want to drive electric, but at the prices they offer in this economy, they’ll only reach the wealthy.
The only reason these “c level” directors and managers are coming out and saying this is because the easy money is gone and now they really have to innovate. Which is expensive.
Poor people also can’t afford to buy brand new vehicles, so this is kind of a moot point, though something that will need to be addressed in the coming years.
Well I’m using the same designation of ‘poor’ as you were in the above comment. I’d say those with leased vehicles would definitely not fall into the category of poor.
Lots of people lease cars that they can’t afford and are basicly car poor. I was house poor when we bought our first house. Lots of low cost meals like pasta and bologna sandwiches so we could make payments while buying furniture and making repairs
In the usa the poor don’t really have anywhere to charge these cars even if they were cheap enough to afford.
You mean to tell me “the poor” don’t have access to electricity? How poor are we talking exactly? Because I’m thinking enough money to spend, say, $30k on a brand new car… which is still pretty well off.
I mean sure, if you live in a cheap inner city apartment, then you might not have a garage to park/charge in. But I bet a lot of people in that situation have access to public transit anyway - they’re not really the target market for cars in general.
It is impossible to compete with a less than five minute fill up for 300+ miles range.
Most people charge their EV overnight. It’d be even better to charge during the day though, when electricity (can be) cheaper thanks to solar power.
Not to mention that reports place charging on public charges to be more costly than gas.
Yeah you’re going to have to share a source for that. Sounds hard to believe.
In the UK, public fast chargers are mostly around the 80p/kwh Mark. With a decently light foot and getting 4 miles per kwh, that’s 20p a mile. With gas at £1.55 a litre, and a 60mpg (UK) hybrid, that’s about 12p a mile.
Home charging an ev on an appropriate tariff costs about 7p/kwh, or about 1.75p per mile.
Its normally only the very fastest chargers that are around 80p, but then there are alternative options that are cheaper if you want ultra high speed and not get robbed blind, such as Tesla that is almost half what Instavolt charge.
People who are barely making ends meet don’t usually buy new cars. They buy used. You can get something tolerable for a hell of a lot less than 30k.
Plus, if you’re poor, there’s a good chance you live in a shitty (maybe unsafe) neighborhood. You might not have a driveway, never mind a garage. If you leave your car to charge overnight, you have to worry about some asshole unplugging it, or even taking/vandalizing the extension cord.
Yeah, but that totally makes sense if no one is buying. It’s just, that no one is buying, because automakers aren’t really interested in EVs, since gas powered have bigger margins, meaning initial manufacturing cost is lower, so they can jack the prices. When they do it with EVs it’s getting very ridiculous very fast.
Well, the majority of Swiss people drives overpriced SUVs anyway… so I guess the margins are pretty good And people here see the saving potential if you use less than 0.35 CHF/kWh 🔋 power compared the often more than 2.0 CHF/L ⛽️ power 1L of ⛽️ has about 10kWh but energy going to the street is way less compared to EV
I hate the SUV trend as a whole, but especially in EVs it’s just so non-sensical. Trying to build more resourceconsious vehicles, but at the same time building them twice as big and heavy as they need to be, while trying to achieve range …
It’s an expensive problem to solve. Charging stations aren’t cheap nor is getting an electrician to come out and run wiring and panels for a hundred cars even if it’s just 120 then it eill take 8-12 hours for each car to charge.
I’ve lived in some places that have giant parking lots for the cars which means they have to dig it up to run wiring and create stations at each spot. That can reduce the amount of cars that can be parked which in some places would benillegal
Slow charging speeds at home/work are fine, nobody is burning 100% of their range daily on their commute. The people with 200 mile daily commutes are not buying EVs
I’ve spent time in the Midwest and most residential parking lots already have outlets all over the place for block hearers in the winter. If a tiny apartment complex in North Dakota can do it, so can everyone else.
No one said they couldn’t do it. It’s just that it isn’t done…so what happens when you buy an ev and move some where woth no charging ? I am in north jersey and I haven’t see a complex here condo or apartment that has outlets anywhere in the parking lot
Even still , unless they are 240v welcome to 2-3 miles per hour charging rate on a ev. Hope you don’t plan on traveling far.
I love these crazy comparisons you people make. Nobody gives a fuck if they have to stop 2 minutes to refuel. 5 minutes if there is a line. Nobody wants to take an hour long wait for a charge port.
It’s like none of you have ever traveled for the holidays.
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