How do I learn to detect logical fallacies in a conversation?

It is difficult for me to ascertain when the person I am communicating is using a logical fallacy to trick me into believing him or doubting my judgement, even when I realise it hours after the argument.

I have seen countless arguments in Reddit threads and I couldn’t figure out who was in the right or wrong unless I looked at the upvote counts. Even if the person is uttering a blatant lie, they somehow make it sound in a way that is completely believable to me. If it weren’t for those people that could exactly point out the irrationality behind these arguments, my mind would have been lobotomised long ago.

I do want to learn these critical thinking skills but I don’t know where to begin from. I could have all these tips and strategies memorised in theory, but they would be essentially useless if I am not able to think properly or remember them at the heat of the moment.

There could be many situations I could be unprepared for, like when the other person brings up a fact or statistic to support their claim and I have no way to verify it at the moment, or when someone I know personally to be wise or well-informed bring up about such fallacies, perhaps about a topic they are not well-versed with or misinformed of by some other unreliable source, and I don’t know whether to believe them or myself.

Could someone help me in this? I find this skill of distinguishing fallacies from facts to be an extremely important thing to have in this age of misinformation and would really wish to learn it well if possible. Maybe I could take inspiration from how you came about learning these critical thinking skills by your own.

Edit: I do not blindly trust the upvote count in a comment thread to determine who is right or wrong. It just helps me inform that the original opinion is not inherently acceptable by everyone. It is up to me decide who is actually correct or not, which I can do at my leisure unlike in a live conversation with someone where I don’t get the time to think rationally about what the other person is saying.

theneverfox,
@theneverfox@pawb.social avatar

So I’m not sure how applicable this is - I’m a programmer, and I’m not neurotypical - but here’s how it works for me

If this, then that. When a certain trigger happens, I’ve conditioned myself to stop my train of thought and reevaluate

When I realize I’m uncomfortable or agitated, I first ask myself “am I dehydrated? Am I overheated?”. If not, I look at the situation… If I’m talking to someone and feel agitated, is it because of something that happened earlier today, is it because I’m just in a mood, or is there any other reason this is a me thing, and snapping at them would be unfair.

It’s a lot of introspection, and I’m not sure it applies to someone who doesn’t need coping mechanisms like this… But here’s how it applies to logical fallacies:

If someone says something I feel is wrong, first I ask myself, why do I think that?

Maybe I’ve been taught wrong. I first heard the vaccines cause autism from a parent who said “I think he was susceptible, and the shock to his system from the vaccines triggered his autism”. On it’s face, that made sense - it wasn’t until a coworker sighed and walked away after a comment I made that I googled it, and there was evidence against it and none for it, so I changed my mind immediately. I had no facts, one opinion by someone with a personal stake in it, and so I was wrong.

So if I only “know” a thing because I was told or because I assumed it, I immediately pull out my phone and look for evidence. You can do it very quick with practice, and people generally respond well when you take them seriously - either you go “huh, I guess you’re right” and they’re all smiles, or you show them what you found and go into the conversation with sources - either they can refute the source or you know they’re ignoring the numbers

So now, let’s say you’re arguing something not so clear-cut, I have a reason to believe what I do based on facts, but the answer isn’t obvious.

So first off, I don’t care if you’re the surgeon general or an anonymous Lemmy poster - ideas matter, people don’t. The only time you trust authority is when you aren’t able to understand the issue - and that comes up plenty, but it has no place in a conversation about the issue - you should be trying to understand ideas if you’re talking about it. If they bring up a person, that’s not an actual argument… Just ignore the names and the titles.

Hitler was right about some things, George Washington was wrong about some things - pretending otherwise is dumb. I’m on Hitler’s side about interior design… Nazi stuff looks imposing and regal. I’m also Jewish, so I’m not exactly a fan of the guy. Ideas matter, where they come from has nothing to do with anything

Next, is “if I can’t understand why someone would do/think this, I’m missing facts”. If you can’t give me a solid argument for the other side, I take everything you say about the topic with a grain of salt. No one is evil in their own story, no one takes a hilariously bad stance just because they’re dumb… They have a reason to think that way, and if I can’t understand why, then I’m missing something.

And if I’m missing something, it’s foolish to make up my mind before I hear what that is.

Then you get to the actual arguments. I lay it out in my head. I break down the individual statements - do they make sense individually? Are they actually related to each other?

Most of all, it’s important to see the difference between winning the argument and making a point. I’m not a great speaker - i don’t remember specifics well, I remember my conclusions. I lose arguments all the time, and I pride myself on the fact that if I realize I’m wrong, I’ll turn on a dime and own up to it.

But winning an argument and being right are almost unrelated things.

Finally, go back and fact check. The argument might be long over, but the goal should always be to understand better and gain a deeper perspective - follow up for your own sake

So my advice is: stop, reevaluate, and refocus. Every time something doesn’t sound right to you, take a minute. Take a breath, remember your goal, and decide if what you’ve just been told changes that.

It’s easy to get buried in details or lost in the heat of the moment, so make a habit of taking yourself out of it

AlexWIWA, (edited )

You just have to read them like flash cards. Careful not to get caught in the fallacy fallacy though. A fallacious argument doesn’t mean someone is wrong, it just means they suck at arguing.

Logical fallacies and calling them out are just a tool in the tool box. They’re really only useful though when someone is being maliciously fallicious or their entire evidence base hangs on a fallacy. But even then, they may still be correct.

A good example is “the standard model is true because the pope said so.” This is an appeal to authority fallacy, but the stance that “the standard model is true” is correct anyway.

JoeClu,
@JoeClu@lemmy.world avatar

We learned to recognize a lot of them in college Philosophy 101.

teawrecks,

Probably learn first order logic (aka boolean algebra). But something important to keep in mind is: just because an argument contains a fallacy doesn’t mean the conclusion is wrong. There might be another logical argument that proves the same conclusion without using a fallacy. So it’s actually a fallacy to assume Fallacy -> Falsehood.

hoodlem,

Taking a logic course at a university would help.

nave,
@nave@lemmy.fmhy.ml avatar

This is a great (free) illustrated book about logical fallacies:

https://bookofbadarguments.com/

Xylight,
@Xylight@lemmy.xylight.dev avatar

This was a great read. Thanks!

Duamerthrax,

The Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan. Any other advice I might have given has already been said. There’s also the audio book version read by Sagan.

Azzu,

lesswrong.com/rationality is good to help you to think more rationally

GONADS125,

My recommendation is to take a Critical Thinking and/or other philosophy classes at your local community college (granted one exists near you).

JoMiran,
@JoMiran@lemmy.ml avatar

In my sophomore year at college I needed to add a “filler” class to have something to do in campus between my two “real” classes. I chose to take Logic and it was one of the best decisions I ever made. Not only was it interesting, it helped me think and analyze arguments. I am pretty sure there are universities that give you free access to the course but it wouldn’t surprise me if you can find logic courses for free on YouTube as well.

Wojwo,

Same here. I write software for a living, but my philosophy logic course was gave me a huge lead as the ability to deconstructe what people say into logic blocks is the first step of writing code.

prole,

I know it sounds dismissive, but I would get an Introduction to Logic and Reasoning textbook, and read it and attempt the problems. The internet is great, and you can get a lot from wikis, but you’re not going to beat the amount of useful info condensed into a book like that. The problems will also help you apply the knowledge. Also, since logic doesn’t generally change much over time, you don’t need to worry about getting the most up to date edition.

The only way to really get good at detecting fallacious arguments is practice.

Freeman, (edited )

What helped me: “Rationality Rules” on youtube had a video series (and even a tabletop game) about types of logical fallacies with the focus on religious apologetics.

And as you said: Upvotecount show whose opinion/argument is popular with the viewership. There can be a correlation with how sound the argument is logically.

thanevim,

Posts like this have me longing for a Save feature...

Steve,

There is a save feature.

subignition,
@subignition@kbin.social avatar

Not yet on kbin.social which is where that user is participating from.

Though there's always the good old bookmark.

Duamerthrax,

Just bookmark in your browser.

bionicjoey, (edited )

Generally a good approach is to try learning the rules of logic. Logic is all about proving things to be true using only facts. It can also be helpful to try some logic puzzles or riddles which can only be solved using hard logic. Note that this won’t automatically make you a better critical thinker, but it will help you exercise that muscle.

Also, it’s helpful to play devil’s advocate. If you hear someone making an argument, try to imagine how you would dispute that argument if you disagreed with it. It doesn’t matter if you actually agree or not, just imagine you did and think about what your counter argument would be. This is what high school debate teams have to do; they are given a topic and a position and have to defend their position.

It always helps to be aware of the facts, or at least of how to find facts. If you see a debate happening where you can’t tell who is right, do your own research on a site like Wikipedia and try to see what the truth is for yourself. Not every argument has a correct answer, but you will at least be able to see where each side is coming from.

NewNewAccount, (edited )

Logic is all about pricing things to be true using only facts.

I know it’s nit-picky but logic can be (and often is) decoupled from facts and truth. An argument can be logically valid and still untrue. For example:

  • all dogs are cats
  • this animal is a dog
  • therefore, this animal is a cat

An argument can be said to be sound when truth is factored in. Only both a valid and true argument is considered to be sound.

lvxferre,
@lvxferre@lemmy.ml avatar

An argument can be logically valid and still untrue.

Only if at least one premise is untrue. If however the premises are true and the argument is logically valid, the conclusion is also true.

Interesting to note that the opposite is not necessarily true - flawed premises and/or a flawed argument do not imply an untrue conclusion. Easy to show with an example:

  • P1 - whales are fish (wrong - they’re mammals)
  • P2 - fish live only in the sea (wrong - freshwater fish exist)
  • C - whales live only in the sea (true conclusion from bullshit premises)

…which leads to the “fallacy of fallacy” - "the proposition is backed up by a fallacious argument, thus it is false is on itself fallacious.

bouh,

The very first step is to know the fallacies. Find a list.

The second step is to familiarise yourself with them. Learn the fallacies. It can also be called sophism in some languages. Familiarising yourself with them will allow you to recognise them.

Third is to be vigilant during a conversation to detect them. Sometimes you will be the one to use them.

The easiest, and amont the most common, are fallacies tied to reputation: when you consider something right or wrong because of who made the statement. It’s sketchy because it can be used as a shortcut in conversation, but by itself the truth or wrongness of the argument doesn’t depend on who said it, never. But some people have demonstrated expertise or they habit of lying or manipulating. Other fallacies usually involve the language or the logic, so it’s harder to detect, but it’s a great mental exercise.

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