@StrassenKatze@actuallyautistic I’m not autistic, and these all sound exactly like the thoughts of neurotypical people. Not sure why these are presented as particularly describing the thoughts of autistic people.
I've been through something similar, so maybe sharing my story will help.
Oh man, now I have big feelings, too! I just feel this so much!
Ooh, I know how to fix that! Maybe helping them solve their problem will make them feel better.
My favorite thing always calms me down, so maybe it'll help them too. I'll ask them to do it with me.
[all of the above are] misinterpreted as "making it all about you"
I'm not sure how to help, so I'll leave it to that person who looks like they do.
If I get involved, I'm gonna become overwhelmed myself, and that will take attention away from them, so it's best just to stay out of it.
When I'm upset or overwhelmed, I prefer to be left alone, so I'll bet they would like the same.
I'm not sure how to help, and I usually make it worse when I try but get it wrong, so it'll be better for everyone if I just do nothing.
[all of the above in this second section are] misinterpreted as cold and uncaring
Just because we don't show it the same doesn't mean we don't feel it.
@StrassenKatze@actuallyautistic Did you miss the bit about how that's misinterpreted, though? I wager the poster/meme creator was thinking of being judged by non-autistic ppl.
I don't see anything that I would relate to "autism" per see. Just very human, in our poor attempts at communication and being there for ourselves and each other.
In #NVC, none of these responses would be seen as "empathic". The top left is "sympathy".
See also e.g. Thomas Gordon's work about Communication Roadblocks:
What unites all of these strategies is that they are trying to get rid of emotions, storing them away. #NVC and trauma research shows that it's much better and more helpful to embrace and welcome them, be it one's own emotions, or the emotions of others. Create a shared space where they can just be.
"Feeling them too" is not compassion or empathy either, and it does not actually help anyone. It is a (mis)trained strategy, and again, it can be changed.
"Empathy" in #NVC is a process where you connect to the feelings and needs of the other without judgment or assumptions, and you relate that back to them in a way that makes them feel heard. It is not a trait or a magic skill, it can be practiced and developed.
"Sympathy" is "relating to their experience by comparing it to your own". In very few situations, sympathy can be empathic, but in most it is not. It disconnects you from the other.
"Sympathy" is something that I can "have" for something or somebody, regardless of whether I communicate it or not. Sometimes, it may be helpful to offer it, when people feel alone and left out in their experience.
"Empathy" only exists from the perspective of the recipient of it: Did they feel heard and understood by me, or not. It's not something I can "be".
A way to describe that kind of empathy would be: "With your permission, I will follow you into your world, and be there with you, without bringing my own stuff with me into it. I'm here to receive and hold the space for you to share whatever you feel comfortable, and I will not judge or pull or push into any direction".
"The ultimate aim is to develop societal relationships based on a restorative, "partnership" paradigm and mutual respect, rather than a retributive, fear-based, "domination" paradigm."
@gamambel@benetnasch @actuallyautistic
You know that the words empathy and sympathy predates NVC, which makes it obvious that it doesn't own the definition of that words?
What is your motivation to bring NVC up here in every post?
Aren't sympathy and empathy emotional processes that can't be observed directly? What justification do you have to assume that a certain behavior is symptom of one, but the other?
@gamambel@benetnasch@actuallyautistic
Crying is generally connected so sadness, but one can cry of joy. What you are doing feels like running to people who are crying of joy, telling them they are sad.
So if I can chime in at this point: my impression is that the chart at the top of this thread doesn't transport what it wants to say very well. The most important lines ("misinterpreted as..") are rather inconspicuous, colour-wise.
What they say is: "The autistic experience is that no matter how you react, it is seen as wrong."
And that definitely IS our experience. This is where non-autistic people could simply listen, take in and accept.
@gamambel@StrassenKatze@actuallyautistic It is lovely that you are enthusiastic about your new learning, but it feels like you are still processing it all, and seeing everything through that lens.
I did not mean to advertise NVC or be enthusiastic about it. I read "empathy", and mentioned that there are many different definitions and there is no one empathy. I mentioned one definition that I am aware of, as an illustrative example. There are many other ways to define empathy. You are reading something into a conversation that I did not mean to convey.
It's disorienting when a person does one thing and then insists in their narrative that no such thing ever happened.
Anecdotally, I have encountered a lot of self-described anarchists who are very bossy. Similarly, every sermon about NVC I experience feels like a combination of violence and smugness.
I respect that you think I did something. It is real in your experience, and I do not discredit your perspective on what I did or didn't say, imply, or did. I appreciate opportunities to clarify what I was meaning to say. I appreciate you sharing what you received, but that doesn't mean I actually meant to send that. I cannot be certain about what you mean, and you cannot know what I meant, until we ask. For me, misunderstandings are an expected part of any attempt to communicate.
Several people have pointed out to you that your presence and behaviour in this thread in the @actuallyautistic group has been received as inappropriate; I'll venture abusive.
It seems you have been saying one is not exercising empathy if what's being received is a violation.
In all service to good faith that you do have good intent toward us, put your NVC cock back in your pants and consider all this pushback might be a gift to you.
@StrassenKatze@actuallyautistic It can be great though when I get into a personal story sharing session with someone else who is not NT, and we go back and forth sharing our own stories and relating to each other. Probably would be confusing to an NT person.
The 4 at the top are reflecting empathy. The 4 at the bottom are as valid as the 4 at the top. Now, I see some lower 4 has trauma responses. The “usually make it worse” is like “I tried it, but it did go nice, so I will avoid doing it again”.
@StrassenKatze@actuallyautistic Has anyone else ever been accused of being self absorbed when you try to relate a persons situation with one you have experienced? I have lost friends for this because they say I always try to make the situation about myself. I'm only trying to connect our experiences! Needless to say, I'm always conscious of whether I am doing it.
@aproposnix@actuallyautistic yep, had my ex-boyfriend and ex-best friend gang up on, and in the end, drop me because of this. It made me seriously question myself and my capability for empathy, until I started hanging out with more ND people, who intuitively understand my intentions and don't get offended.
@StrassenKatze@actuallyautistic
I'm sure empathy expressed by autistic persons can look like this. But these manifestations don't seem exclusive to them.
I don't have strong reason to think I'm anything other than allistic. But most of those expressions describe my frequent reactions in various situations.
@StrassenKatze@actuallyautistic I was in the top half until I got called out about “making it all about me” once and got really self conscious, at which point I swapped to the bottom half.
Very accurate image
@StrassenKatze@actuallyautistic
I can relate to the top part too. Not so much to lower part. But it feels that the reasoning in the lower part is mostly related to learnings from negative experience. So maybe I am just lucky with that or learning resistant.
@caocancio@lilo@StrassenKatze@actuallyautistic I'm neurotypical (as far as I know) and the top half strikes me as a pretty normal reaction, actually. Sharing a similar story and finding common ground is one of the most common social interactions to relate to someone, I literally do it all the time. The bottom half, I'd say is less common, but people in my life with mental health problems have left me in that category too where I just don't know what to do or risk becoming overwhelmed myself.
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