Ask them what they hope to win. You can sit there and make endless arguments to defend your view that half of humanity is awful. Until eventually everyone just gives up arguing. Now what? There is a next day. The victim mentality is not even self-serving. At most it lets you know how badly your life went, but far more often it skews your view of the events and gives you nothing to work with moving forward except a desire to hurt others.
Tell them they won and ask them what they want to do next.
You have to pull the reverse red pill card, to red pilled them out of being red pilled. It takes a next level pillmaster to achieve this and I’m not sure it’s ever even been done on record.
The first step to changing someone's mind is acknowledging that you probably won't be able to. The other commenters are right, the red pill is stupid, it's annoying to argue with them, and you'll probably fail the delicate act of ideological conversion. Still want to give it a shot? Great!
Depending on how deep down the rabbit hole they are, the answer is it could either be impossible or it's a long term dedicated effort. First you should learn a bit about cult deprogramming techniques, as while the red pill isn't really a cult it is an echo chamber ie. a mostly comprehensive view of the world that has built in answers that insulate from external dissent. The red pill tends to provide community, some degree of lifestyle improvement, and a feeling of secret insights into society / the world, and it's very rare an individual will give those things up for the sake of something as abstract as logical consistency.
You need to slowly provide alternatives to whatever positives the red pill provides, which while annoying is possible because the red pill sucks. The online sense of community is tenuous at best, so be their friend and connect them to other friends that'll entirely replace that aspect. Additionally, the lifestyle improvement aspect is rather generic and can come from anywhere. Ask them what specific red pill people they follow and provide a gym / motivation YouTuber that better provides whatever motivation the red pill gives.
The final element is the feeling of insight into the world that the red pill gives. This one is ironically the least important to changing someone's mind and the most difficult, as in order to successfully provide alternatives you likely need to understand the red pill ideology better than they do. Nothing a red pill person says should stump you, you should have heard it beforehand and researched it and thought of better counter arguments. If they mention hypergamy, you should have annecdotal, theoretical, and statistical answers ready to go. You should know their ideology well so you can make annoying jokes about how ridiculous it is when applied to real life.
If you do these things, over enough time and done diplomatically enough so they don't leave you for a friend that doesn't annoy them, you can probably depeogram a red pill person.
Yeah it's incredibly difficult, that's why the majority of people never change their ideology past their early 20s when they first flirt with several. Add in the fact that you'll likely be socially ostracized from your old community if you ever do change your mind and the evolutionary pressure to be accepted over being logical, and it's quite frankly impressive anyone ever does.
Thing I don’t get is where people are finding this sense of community. I understand that it’s rough to feel like you belong in America, but are red pill Internet communities really enough for some people to give them a sense of belonging? Every Internet “community” I’ve ever been a part of just feels like a bunch of strangers arguing about things and trying to pile into some ranking order.
I’ve heard it said (by a sociologist) that unwinding conspiratorial thinking requires approaching someone with compassion. Rather than tell them that they are wrong, ask them to explain why they think a particular thing.
Honestly, I don’t have the patience or compassion to try to do this. I gave up trying to talk my mother out of her Fox News beliefs and instituted a “no politics” rule in our relationship in order to save it. Best move that was available for me.
Yeah it's 90% compassion and 10% argumentation. Seeing things from their perspective, seeing the aspects they like and not immediately placing those aspects into the good and bad buckets, but instead truly appreciating how those aspects work for them. Of course, then you need to figure out how to advance your position over theirs, but that exhaustingly starts in compassion.
you just described all the conversations i had with my ex. blah blah blah “you know i think desantis has some good points”
“NO HE DOES NOT DONT SAY THAT” cue argument about what hes actually doing and that one policy that only kind of makes sense doesnt make desantis anything anyone should be listening to
no its about the kids not trans erasure. MAYBE FOR YOU ITS ABOUT KIDS OR SMTH but for the majority of the conservatives its about trans erasure WHICH IS NOT A GOOD THING.
don’t even get me started on fucking covid vaccines. “this study says… myocarditis, autism, mrna blah blah” “which study” “they exist theres data” “ok i believe you show me these studies” “well i cant find the studies now i feel stupid gets upset but doesnt think shes wrong still”
once she brought me a “study” and the results said “THE DATA IS INCONCLUSIVE AND FURTHERS PROVES THE BENEFITS OUTWEIGHT THE NEGATIVES” and im like i dont know what to tell you this wasnt the study you think it is.
i don’t get how people can just be wrong and proven wrong over and over but still think theyre right. her parents shove right wing propaganda down her throat sadly.
…
The way that I met her was on tour at a concert
She had long hair and a short miniskirt
I just got onstage drippin’, pourin’ with sweat
I was walkin’ through the crowd and gues who I met
I whispered in her ear, “Come to the picture booth
So I can ask you some questions to see if you are a hundred proof”
I asked her her name, she said blah-blah-blah
I took a couple of flicks and she was enthused
I said, “How do you like the show?”
She said, “I was very amused”
…
You don’t. See the first (introduction) video from the Alt-Right Playbook. Basically, there is a real risk that even if you “win” the argument, the red-pill derp just gets angry and takes it out on a convenient female target. The energy is better spent finding ways to counter red-pill ideology that don’t involve engaging directly with these people.
My mother threw out a statistic about police killings that she got from Fox that I was able to counter in five seconds with a Google search and a WaPo article. She said she still believed Fox. Our relationship had already been strained due to politics (summer 2020) and I nearly cut the relationship off because I was so appalled by her politics. The solution was to stop discussing those topics. It’s not as straight forward bad to reject discussion as you are suggesting.
Even if you assumed a goal of reproductive success, it's idiotic to think there is a single best strategy that is unchanging. Humans evolved over tens of thousands of years, and they evolved to be adaptable. It's like trying to play a football game with the same play every time... People will catch on quickly.
1000% this. You can break most of the red pill mentality if you can make the person understand that each woman is their own individual, and that the whole “us vs them” mentality will not get them very far.
I think you will also have a greater chance of changing their mentality if you manage to understand what drove them into the “red pill path” to begin with.
There are books about how to manipulate women. I read one of those and felt sick. No normal man can write stuff like that, publish it, and feel good about himself. Jesus.
Normal men don't read it either. We're potentially raising more broken young men than we've seen in the last hundred years. And when the aftershocks arrive, people will act surprised like they always do.
Women are not some single homogenous group. Every woman is a unique person, just like men are.
Actually I think you’ll find that all women everywhere can be extrapolated from 5 shit takes on Twitter, one of which was a joke and one of which was a far-right LARPer /s
Red pill mentality isn't stupid. If it was, you'd be able to come up with your own counterarguments rather than relying on asking random people on the web.
Now while the red pill mentality does make a lot of valid points, there are some extremists out there that take it too far and are simply woman-haters. And those people are stuck in their ways and not worth arguing with.
The thing is, I have a lot of valid counter-arguments, the problem is that every time I state one, the “red pills” have such a stupid comeback that I just can’t say anything back… Like I’ve heard things with mind-blowing levels of idiocy. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not against self improvement, far from it. I just don’t think that dropping all your hobbies, interests and personality to be “big muscle guy who defends Andrew Tates at all cost” is “self improvement”.
You don't need that to be a man. Masculinity is changing, and truly manly men accept and adapt to change; not cower from or reject it. You'll make it through, but if you want anyone to enjoy spending time with you, you gotta drop the act and find your true self, and realize that while improvements are always welcomed, that you are enough as you are.
It’s not an easy thing to employ in the moment. A lot of ‘red pill’ types actually try to employ this method, unfortunately for them they do it very clumsily and are often visibly just JAQing off (“Just asking questions, bro”). But, when this technique is used to genuinely understand and break down someone’s position (instead of a cult conversion / ‘argument winner’ tool), it’s quite effective.
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