It’s a waste of time. These types of people are as thick as mince, you’re not gonna change their mind because they have zero interest or incentive to do so. It’s a fucking cult of morons.
You are not wrong, but you stop short. These types are also very weak emotionally. As Adam Kinzinger said, MAGAs are too terrified to leave the tribe. They believe the lies because their tribe tells them to.
1000% this. You can break most of the red pill mentality if you can make the person understand that each woman is their own individual, and that the whole “us vs them” mentality will not get them very far.
I think you will also have a greater chance of changing their mentality if you manage to understand what drove them into the “red pill path” to begin with.
There are books about how to manipulate women. I read one of those and felt sick. No normal man can write stuff like that, publish it, and feel good about himself. Jesus.
Normal men don't read it either. We're potentially raising more broken young men than we've seen in the last hundred years. And when the aftershocks arrive, people will act surprised like they always do.
Women are not some single homogenous group. Every woman is a unique person, just like men are.
Actually I think you’ll find that all women everywhere can be extrapolated from 5 shit takes on Twitter, one of which was a joke and one of which was a far-right LARPer /s
The first step to changing someone's mind is acknowledging that you probably won't be able to. The other commenters are right, the red pill is stupid, it's annoying to argue with them, and you'll probably fail the delicate act of ideological conversion. Still want to give it a shot? Great!
Depending on how deep down the rabbit hole they are, the answer is it could either be impossible or it's a long term dedicated effort. First you should learn a bit about cult deprogramming techniques, as while the red pill isn't really a cult it is an echo chamber ie. a mostly comprehensive view of the world that has built in answers that insulate from external dissent. The red pill tends to provide community, some degree of lifestyle improvement, and a feeling of secret insights into society / the world, and it's very rare an individual will give those things up for the sake of something as abstract as logical consistency.
You need to slowly provide alternatives to whatever positives the red pill provides, which while annoying is possible because the red pill sucks. The online sense of community is tenuous at best, so be their friend and connect them to other friends that'll entirely replace that aspect. Additionally, the lifestyle improvement aspect is rather generic and can come from anywhere. Ask them what specific red pill people they follow and provide a gym / motivation YouTuber that better provides whatever motivation the red pill gives.
The final element is the feeling of insight into the world that the red pill gives. This one is ironically the least important to changing someone's mind and the most difficult, as in order to successfully provide alternatives you likely need to understand the red pill ideology better than they do. Nothing a red pill person says should stump you, you should have heard it beforehand and researched it and thought of better counter arguments. If they mention hypergamy, you should have annecdotal, theoretical, and statistical answers ready to go. You should know their ideology well so you can make annoying jokes about how ridiculous it is when applied to real life.
If you do these things, over enough time and done diplomatically enough so they don't leave you for a friend that doesn't annoy them, you can probably depeogram a red pill person.
Yeah it's incredibly difficult, that's why the majority of people never change their ideology past their early 20s when they first flirt with several. Add in the fact that you'll likely be socially ostracized from your old community if you ever do change your mind and the evolutionary pressure to be accepted over being logical, and it's quite frankly impressive anyone ever does.
Thing I don’t get is where people are finding this sense of community. I understand that it’s rough to feel like you belong in America, but are red pill Internet communities really enough for some people to give them a sense of belonging? Every Internet “community” I’ve ever been a part of just feels like a bunch of strangers arguing about things and trying to pile into some ranking order.
I’ve heard it said (by a sociologist) that unwinding conspiratorial thinking requires approaching someone with compassion. Rather than tell them that they are wrong, ask them to explain why they think a particular thing.
Honestly, I don’t have the patience or compassion to try to do this. I gave up trying to talk my mother out of her Fox News beliefs and instituted a “no politics” rule in our relationship in order to save it. Best move that was available for me.
Yeah it's 90% compassion and 10% argumentation. Seeing things from their perspective, seeing the aspects they like and not immediately placing those aspects into the good and bad buckets, but instead truly appreciating how those aspects work for them. Of course, then you need to figure out how to advance your position over theirs, but that exhaustingly starts in compassion.
I’ve always had a bone to pick with that expression.
What experience? If it’s an old fart with outdated views, yeah maybe they can keep complaining about shit that doesn’t matter anymore, but dumbshit people my age or younger? What experience?
It works better in context, the quote is "don't argue with idiots: they'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience." I've always taken that as "experience at being an idiot". The "yeah, well, muh wisdom/experience" copout is unrelated.
You don’t. See the first (introduction) video from the Alt-Right Playbook. Basically, there is a real risk that even if you “win” the argument, the red-pill derp just gets angry and takes it out on a convenient female target. The energy is better spent finding ways to counter red-pill ideology that don’t involve engaging directly with these people.
My mother threw out a statistic about police killings that she got from Fox that I was able to counter in five seconds with a Google search and a WaPo article. She said she still believed Fox. Our relationship had already been strained due to politics (summer 2020) and I nearly cut the relationship off because I was so appalled by her politics. The solution was to stop discussing those topics. It’s not as straight forward bad to reject discussion as you are suggesting.
It’s not an easy thing to employ in the moment. A lot of ‘red pill’ types actually try to employ this method, unfortunately for them they do it very clumsily and are often visibly just JAQing off (“Just asking questions, bro”). But, when this technique is used to genuinely understand and break down someone’s position (instead of a cult conversion / ‘argument winner’ tool), it’s quite effective.
you just described all the conversations i had with my ex. blah blah blah “you know i think desantis has some good points”
“NO HE DOES NOT DONT SAY THAT” cue argument about what hes actually doing and that one policy that only kind of makes sense doesnt make desantis anything anyone should be listening to
no its about the kids not trans erasure. MAYBE FOR YOU ITS ABOUT KIDS OR SMTH but for the majority of the conservatives its about trans erasure WHICH IS NOT A GOOD THING.
don’t even get me started on fucking covid vaccines. “this study says… myocarditis, autism, mrna blah blah” “which study” “they exist theres data” “ok i believe you show me these studies” “well i cant find the studies now i feel stupid gets upset but doesnt think shes wrong still”
once she brought me a “study” and the results said “THE DATA IS INCONCLUSIVE AND FURTHERS PROVES THE BENEFITS OUTWEIGHT THE NEGATIVES” and im like i dont know what to tell you this wasnt the study you think it is.
i don’t get how people can just be wrong and proven wrong over and over but still think theyre right. her parents shove right wing propaganda down her throat sadly.
…
The way that I met her was on tour at a concert
She had long hair and a short miniskirt
I just got onstage drippin’, pourin’ with sweat
I was walkin’ through the crowd and gues who I met
I whispered in her ear, “Come to the picture booth
So I can ask you some questions to see if you are a hundred proof”
I asked her her name, she said blah-blah-blah
I took a couple of flicks and she was enthused
I said, “How do you like the show?”
She said, “I was very amused”
…
I’m starting to think that the correct way to address these types of things is with a simple, possibly even loving, “that’s the dumbest thing I’ve heard”.
A lot of poorly reasoned opinions and ideas come from socially validated sources, they parrot the opinions of people they identify with. Showing that you won’t agree to get along, might work as a counter both to their spewing the shit as well as maybe letting them question why they hold that belief.
Might also make them stop coming to you with these types of opinions, which may or may not be what you want.
Works quite well in person unless the person is literally beyond logic and saving
It’s really hard for people to completely deny close friends with hard evidence in person (usually saying your line results in them asking why and then you can search stuff up on your phone or something), much easier with the distance of social media
The Wachowskis, who directed the Matrix and transitioned, have admitted that the Matrix is actually in large part a trans allegory. Apparently one the pills used to transition was literally a red pill.
Which is why, if I remember correctly, when at one point Ivanka Trump and Elon Musk tweeted about taking the red pill, one of the Wachowskis replied that they should go fuck themselves.
The Matrix is a 'trans metaphor', Lilly Wachowski says ... The Matrix first hit screens in 1999, when Lilly says "the corporate world wasn't ready" for an allegory - a story that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning - about transgender people.
“I’m the best, I’m gonna be the best at everything, fuck feminists, worship millionaires because they are rich” That sort of stuff. The funny thing is that 90% of people who think like that don’t even know what the word feminist actually means…
Somebody has recommended you street epistemology already. An important part of it is to talk using the same concepts.
I say this because my understanding of the red pill comes from the documentary The Red Pill. It roughly means that you are aware of the issues men face in modern societies and care about them. That caring about men’s rights does not mean that you hate women.
And because of that I initially thought that trying to convince someone that “red pill mentality is stupid” was the stupid thing.
You can’t reason someone out of a position that they didn’t reason themselves into.
Fascists and other Frauds tell the Little Man that he is a loser; that he is being ripped off by the Bad People; that his whole class or gender or race are being taken advantage of by their inferiors. They play to the Little Man’s anxieties, making him feel littler and more stepped-upon.
This is all a lead-in to telling the Little Man to sign up for the Big Lie.
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