I’ve been watching Voyager for the first time and just got to the episode. I think I agree with the decision (as a lever-puller) but it does raise some interesting questions. As Janeway mentions, if they’d been able to do it immediately, she’d have done it without question, but after two weeks of Tuvix integrating with the crew it’s a more difficult question. If Tuvix had been around for say 5 years I think I’d disagree with separating him. I think the way I look at it is that the social bonds possessed by Tuvok and Neelix are more important than the mere two week old bonds of Tuvix, but if Tuvok and Neelix were long dead and their loved ones had already mourned them, while Tuvix had had more time to become a fixture in people’s lives, then the circumstances would be different. Tbh I disagree with the idea that Tuvok and Neelix get the biggest say - I think that the input of Kes and the rest of the crew is valuable, and Kes pleads to get Neelix back while none of the crew back Tuvix.
Does that mean the worth of lives is based on popularity? Not generally, but I do think that social connections are a relevant thing to consider. Part of what makes murder bad is not just the loss of the individual’s life, but also what it means for everyone else. If you could press a button to create a life then press another to end it, would you have made the world a worse place by doing so? I don’t think so. But if you press a button to create a life then go out and murder someone who already existed, then I think you have.
I’d also say that the captain’s responsibilities in her role as captain are relevant and also support the decision.
The fact that it is still widely discussed even after so many years, proves is such a great episode with a great moral dilemma.
Whether they chose is the right choice or not, I can not say.
But from a story perspective, all I can say is that I didn’t really like the character of Tuvix, too whiney and weird. While Neelix may not be everyone’s favourite, Tuvok definitely was an excellent addition to the team. So for my enjoyment, they did make the right choice.
I figured I’d throw my opinion in the mix. “Star Trek: Voyager” might have missed an opportunity to address the Tuvix dilemma by not considering a solution presented in “Star Trek: The Next Generation.” Specifically, given the transporter’s ability to duplicate individuals as seen in Second Chances" where the incident produced two Rikers. Captain Janeway could have potentially cloned Tuvix (with his knowledge and consent of course) and then reversed the merging process on one of them. This would allow both Tuvix and the separated Tuvok and Neelix to coexist.
Thomas Riker was created through a complete freak accident involving a distortion field that reflected a transporter beam in the exact right way to duplicate Will Riker. It’s not something that be done easily at will.
Now cloning and memory implantation are completely possible as well, like that one TNG episode where they make a clone of Kahless or that one very dumb ENT episode where there’s a clone of Trip. I’m not sure, but cloning is probably illegal by the time of Voyager, since genetic augmentation is completely illegal throughout the Federation.
But the main problem is that nothing other than killing Tuvix would have satiated Janeway’s bloodlust. For real, she’s like the most evil person in that entire show.
That Riker example you’re using wasn’t something they could easily duplicate though. It was an accident involving too many variables for Voyager to re-create. But let’s say that they do manage to create two Tuvixs.
Which one do you kill? The new one? The old one? By what criteria? Both don’t want to die. You’ve cloned them, sure, but now you’re still sentencing a sentient being to death. The only thing you’ve done is make the decision twice as hard. Before it was just “Tuvix or Tuvok/Neelix?” Now it’s “Tuvix and Tuvix? Or Tuvix and Tuvok/Neelix? Or Tuvok/Neelix and Tuvix?”
Exactly, the transporter beam bounced back off the atmosphere and made a copy of Riker if I remember correctly. It was a unique trait of that particular planet.
Basically, yeah. There was a disruptive distortion field around the planet. Transporter chief used two confinement beams to try and grab Riker but only one was needed so he shut the second down. The second beam had the same ‘phase differential’ as the distortion field so it reflected inside the atmosphere and ‘beamed’ Riker back to the ground, creating a split.
Voyager would have had to find a planet with this type of distortion field and adjust their confinement beam to match that of the planet. Good luck.
The Riker example was just one of many wasn’t it? The “transporter clone” trope has been around since StarTrek: The Original Series when Captain Kirk was replicated by accident. As well as recent trek canon when Boimler was replicated on StarTrek: Lower Decks.
From an in-universe perspective, given the numerous transporter accidents throughout Starfleet’s history, it would seem logical that Starfleet would invest resources into understanding these anomalies to prevent unintended duplications or other mishaps. Transporter technology is complex and interacts with a myriad of environmental conditions, which might explain why these accidents, while rare in the context of all transport operations, still happen occasionally.
Voyager could have taken the next steps and introduced a new level of control over the technology by relying on Starfleet, had it thoroughly investigated and understood these incidents. I don’t see why they might not have developed protocols or technologies to recreate such anomalies intentionally. This could have provided Captain Janeway with an additional solution to the Tuvix dilemma.
Also as for which to kill, that would of course be up to Tuvix - which without his consent this would be moot. The logical one I suppose would be the original Tuvix only to lower the number of possible variables in the “separation.”
The Riker example was just one of many wasn’t it? The “transporter clone” trope has been around since StarTrek: The Original Series when Captain Kirk was replicated by accident. As well as recent trek canon when Boimler was replicated on StarTrek: Lower Decks.
Kirk wasn’t cloned, he was split into two different versions of himself that contained different parts of his personality/ego. A clone needs to be a copy, not a lower resolution version of the character. Also Boimler was re-created through the same fashion that Riker was. It also happened 20ish years after Voyager left for the Delta Quadrant.
From an in-universe perspective, given the numerous transporter accidents throughout Starfleet’s history, it would seem logical that Starfleet would invest resources into understanding these anomalies to prevent unintended duplications or other mishaps. Transporter technology is complex and interacts with a myriad of environmental conditions, which might explain why these accidents, while rare in the context of all transport operations, still happen occasionally.
They do. Starfleets whole thing is exploration and study. During the episodes where there have been clones you see a vast amount of information that’s uncovered. Testing is done to see what happened and how to prevent it from happening again in the future.
Voyager could have taken the next steps and introduced a new level of control over the technology by relying on Starfleet, had it thoroughly investigated and understood these incidents. I don’t see why they might not have developed protocols or technologies to recreate such anomalies intentionally. This could have provided Captain Janeway with an additional solution to the Tuvix dilemma.
This doesn’t make sense. You’re asking Voyager, who is tens of thousands of lightyears from known space, to somehow recreate an anomaly. They do not have the level of study of each planet that would be required to find a suitable testbed. They also do not have the time. They’re looking for ways to get home. The anomalies they’ve stopped and encountered along the way (without being pushed into investigating by aliens) have been overwhelmingly to either further the goal of getting home faster or to supply the ship with necessities for the trip. Moreover, there’s the fact that the transporter cloning incidents were pure anomalies. Just because Starfleet studied them and knows what happens does not mean that they’re able to recreate it. We’ve seen numerous times that Starfleet can understand a phenomena but can’t replicate it. You’re asking way too much of a small science vessel stranded in the Delta Quadrant.
Also as for which to kill, that would of course be up to Tuvix - which without his consent this would be moot.
That’s the pint I am trying to make. You will not get his consent. Ever. He doesn’t want to die. Just because you clone someone doesn’t mean that logically they’re going to go “Oh, well I guess, I can die if it means that another version of me lives.” He was acting on a survival instinct. He’s not going to override that just because there’s a clone. Which means you must still make the decision that Janeway made. You STILL MUST decide whether to kill Tuvix or let him live. Your cloning idea might be a nice idea but that’s all it is. An idea. When put into practice it immediately falls apart because you’re back to the same argument that was made at the start. Do you have the right to execute one man to save the lives of two others? The issue of the episode isn’t “Tuvix is a unique lifeform and then must be saved”. It’s “Do you have the right to kill someone in order to save others?” If you add a transporter clone into that mix the question doesn’t change.
The transporter clone option is a nice idea but that’s all it is. An idea. There is no situation in which you can put it into practice and have it be a solution to the problem.
No, I’m saying by the time of Voyager this teleporter clone technology could very well have been figured out. It seems a wasted opportunity to not take advantage of that storyline and open up anyone more ethical dilemmas.
There is no situation in which you can put it into practice and have it be a solution to the problem.
I see absolutely no reason why not.
You will not get his consent. Ever. He doesn’t want to die.
I can’t imagine why he wouldn’t be in favor of the plan, especially since he is half Vulcan. It’s a very logical solution to the issue.
Just because you clone someone doesn’t mean that logically they’re going to go “Oh, well I guess, I can die if it means that another version of me lives.”
Again I see absolutely no reason not to.
He was acting on a survival instinct. He’s not going to override that just because there’s a clone.
There’s no reason he’d have to…
Which means you must still make the decision that Janeway made. You STILL MUST decide whether to kill Tuvix or let him live.
Of course, but this way they can all coexist. I see it as an absolute win win for everyone.
apart because you’re back to the same argument that was made at the start.
I definitely disagree. The argument/dilemma is inclusive of the cost of Tuvix, my solution preserves Tuvix. I’m not sure you understand what I’m proposing or are just not accepting that in this case there is no real death of anyone.
Simply sedate Tuvix, do the clone, do the split and revive whichever Tuvix is left. And now all three exist simultaneously and all that’s lost to all of them is a case of missing time.
Do you have the right to execute one man to save the lives of two others?
When you can simultaneously preserve the life, absolutely!
No, I’m saying by the time of Voyager this teleporter clone technology could very well have been figured out. It seems a wasted opportunity to not take advantage of that storyline and open up anyone more ethical dilemmas.
Transporter clones are not that simple. When they occur it’s because of a strange anomaly. Just because something does happen doesn’t mean that they’ll be able to recreate it. Everytime they’ve happened it’s been either because of situations beyond their control or due to a complete accident.
I see absolutely no reason why not.
I have literally told you why. You keep ignoring it. You cannot use transporter clones to solve this problem when the problem is “do you have the right to kill them”. A transporter clone does NOTHING other than add another person to kill. Just because you have a backup doesn’t mean you suddenly are granted free murder rights.
I can’t imagine why he wouldn’t be in favor of the plan, especially since he is half Vulcan. It’s a very logical solution to the issue.
He was also half-vulcan during his freakout on the bridge. Logic dictates to get your crewmen back. You are in stranded space. You are now relying on one individual to take the responsibilities of two roles. It is logical to separate Tuvix. Loved ones got their loved ones back, the responsibilities were no longer collated into a single person, and a lack of complex/new biology makes it easier for Sick Bay. It is not logical to run around on the bridge screaming for people to not kill you. Logic doesn’t seem to make much difference to Tuvix. That was also established in the episode itself where he acted based off of hunches and thoughts, not facts and opinion. Moreover, this is a survival mechanism. HE doesn’t want to die. Just because someone else is going to live his life doesn’t mean anything. He isn’t the one who is going to live that life. You are not giving the emotional situation here the weight it overwhelmingly deserves. Especially when the character never acted logical.
Of course, but this way they can all coexist. I see it as an absolute win win for everyone.
You know, except for the Tuvix that you have to kill. A decision that is now made WAY more cold by using a transporter clone. Janeway was put in a tough decision and had to make a rough call. The option you’re providing turns Janeway into a coldblooded killer who has already pre-emptively decided to kill but wants to have her cake and eat it too. I find it way more fucked up to have her resigned to already killing a man instead of being choked up making that decision.
I definitely disagree. The argument is the cost of Tuvix, my solution preserves Tuvix. I’m not sure you understand what I’m proposing or are just not accepting that in this case there is no real death of anyone.
No, that is not the argument and has never been the argument. The argument has always been “Does Janeway have the right to kill Tuvix?” That is literally the argument that’s made in the episode. Just because you’re cloning one and being able to keep Tuvix doesn’t suddenly mean that you’re still not killing a sentient creature.
When you can simultaneously preserve the life, absolutely!
Then, even though there wasn’t a clone, Janeway was in the right.
Then, even though there wasn’t a clone, Janeway was in the right.
100% she was perfectly justified.
As far as killing a sentient being - I’m not sure a sedated existence counts as an existence much less a sentient one.
No, that is not the argument and has never been the argument.
We simply disagree on this. The argument is exactly whether or not the life of Tuvix is worth the cost of two lives… sure other arguments are presented as with any dilemma but it boils down to the value of the two crew mates. Janeway absolutely has every right to ensure the lives of her crew. So while it was addressed directly in the episode it was one of the weaker dilemmas of the show. As captiaiher priority is always her crew, Tuvix was not her crew. I am not sure why you seem to disagree but we will have to end it there.
Yeah, we will have to end it there because you’re just ignoring half of what I’m saying and ignoring the episode itself.
I disagree because you’re just objectively wrong. The literal argument made in the episode is that what Janeway is doing is wrong. It has nothing to do with wiping out his unique experience. It’s the fact that he doesn’t want to die. That’s the literal words he uses. “I don’t want to die.” Both Tuvix and Kes talk to Janeway about whether or not he should die. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not a version of him will continue to exist.
Take care, wish you the best, but I am beyond done.
I never said it was about wiping out his own uniquely existence. And I didn’t ignore half of what you said I agree with most of it and didn’t feel the need to repeatedly agree.
If I’m so objectively wrong then you’re very much just as wrong since we agreed so much. Heck I even agree it’s his desire to live that would convince him to consent, because he does in my scenario.
It almost like your wanted to argue. You need to relax it’s a show meant to be enjoyed. I simply made the case that a new avenue was available and it could have opened the doors to more. I get you disagree. But no reason to be upset.
I don’t think I’ll be crossing paths with you again, this reminded me too much of reddit so I’ll be leaving this server. Thank you.
When you read the script for the episode Tuvix, or when you watched the show, what was your conclusion on the ethical problem? I thought it was wrong of them to kill Tuvix. Nelix and Tuvok were dead, killing Tuvix to bring them back was murder. Im interested in your opinion.
There was a small voice inside of me that agrees with you but I also knew that if I had two loved ones that would disappear forever, I might have to make an unpleasant but necessary choice. It remains an interesting dilemma.
I will not stand for this Neelix slander. He is a loved one and is wonderful. Maybe too colorful at times, maybe tried too hard at times, but did his best and was a fabulous addition to the crew.
Janeway leads with focus on her mission - to get her crew home
I don’t believe that AOC has seen more than about three episodes of Voyager. If she had seen at least three, the statistical likelihood that she would have seen one where Janeway yanks the crew into some conflict they have absolutely no business involving themselves in would approach 100%
Poor statement of her mission. IIRC Janeway says pretty clearly in one of the first episodes that they’re still going to carry out their duty as a Starfleet ship to seek out new life and new civilizations, boldly go, etc. That’s their mission, and getting home is an important part but not all of it.
Further to the link. Tuvix is a character in star trek voyager. There is a transporter accident that ends up welding 2 other characters (Lieutenant Tuvok, Neelix) into 1 individual. The episode is spent trying to resolve this issue.
By the end, Captain Janeway is given a solution. They can reverse the process and recover Tuvok and Neelix. Unfortunately this will destroy Tuvix. Tuvix, meanwhile has developed on his own. He doesn’t want to die and makes that clear. Janeway has the dilemma. She can do nothing, and let Tuvix live, or kill him to bring Tuvok and Neelix back.
Basically, it’s the trolley problem. Do nothing, and 2 people die, or kill 1 yourself, to save them.
To give some context, if I remember correctly, Tuvix wasn’t just “clearly against the split”. He was desperately trying to save his own life, crying out “doesn’t anyone see that this is wrong??”, before they essentially killed him.
Tuvok and Neelix were individuals but merged into one being, Tuvix. Tuvix had the knowledge and memories of both individuals but existed in one body. One mind. He knew everything the other two did but had his own opinions and reasonings and individuality. The Doctor onboard attempts to find a fix but is unable. He promises to find a solution.
A couple of weeks pass and Tuvix has taken over the duties of both Tuvok and Neelix. He’s developing some friendships and relationships. He’s even more effective in certain situations than his counterpart would have been due to the unique perspective he has. He’s settled in. Then the Doctor informs Captain Janeway and Tuvix that he’s discovered a solution and a way to split Tuvix back into Tuvok and Neelix. Everyone is on board except Tuvix who announces he doesn’t want to die after gaining his own identity.
Janeway is forced into a horrible position. She wants her friends back but also she wants to respect this lifeform and unique person. She hears from Tuvix and other crew members on what their opinion is. Tuvix obviously is against it. Heavily. Kes, Neelix’s girlfriend, desperately wants Neelix back. Tuvok also happens to be Janeways close advisor and close personal friend. After some time, Janeway comes out and asks Tuvix to come with her to sickbay. She is ordering that he undergo the procedure.
Tuvix immediately rebels and starts pleading for his life from various crew members on the bridge. All ignore him and look away. He then attempts to run away but Security officers stop him. Janeway leads him to Sick Bay where he more or less shuts down and just silently judges everyone. The Doctor, aware of Tuvix refusal to undergo the procedure, also refuses to do the procedure. However the procedure is relatively simple to perform. Janeway does the procedure herself, asking the Doctor to step aside. Tuvix is sat down on a bed and Janeway stares him in the eyes. She then splits him back into Tuvok and Neelix. Janeway welcomes the men back and then leaves Sick Bay with a look of self doubt and horror on her face, deeply shaken.
Here’s the scene. It’s a little edited (a couple moments cut and a weird sound effect added when Tuvix is killed) but you see the broadstrokes.
What I don't get is why they didn't do some technofoolery with the transporters to make a copy of Tuvix and then just split that one. In a universe where there's two William Rikers there's gotta be a way to use transporters to clone.
Not really. The Doctor wasn’t really as advanced as chat gpt. Just an emergency tool. Voyager was stranded without a doctor so they used it full time and he grew sentience along the way.
You kinda have to accept the bounds of the problem as stated in order for it to be worth thinking about. It undercuts the value of the experiment if you just say “I find a solution other than those presented which denied the central conflict entirely”.
My personal headcanon is that they would have had they had the full resources of Starfleet at their disposal. The Riker incident was, as far as we know, non-reproducible, or someone somewhere would have found a way to weaponize it.
Then you’d have two Tuvixes that both don’t want to die. Actually I had an entire day of one philosophy class to discuss this, however it was very specific that “teletransportation” absolutely kills you and replicates you. My professor specifically said that having an understanding of star trek was necessary that day.
Just keep one in the transporter buffer and repolarize the Heisenberg compensator to split it apart before materialization. It wouldn't ever know it existed. Like unzipping a file in a temporary directory.
Terrible idea. Any time a transporter duplicates somebody, one of them turns evil. (See the DS9 episode where Tom Riker pretends to be Will Riker and hijacks the Defiant, or the reason Harry Kim, who was replaced by his own duplicate early on in the series, never got a promotion).
So now you have to decide to kill Good Tuvix, or kill the other one, which will just give you Evil Tuvok and Evil Neelix.
Trek has no true multiverse in the modern sense of the concept. It’s more of a single-timeline with occasional aberrations. It has the occasional “alternate timeline”, but almost always uses the concept that those are temporary and collapse once the “real” timeline is restored - unless some important event or other metaphysical technobabble causes them to remain stable.
The only major examples of timelines that didn’t seem to vanish after the protagonists had left are the Mirror Universe and the Kelvin Timeline. There are little pocket loops here and there, but by and large it seems that there is One True Timeline that can be reshaped, but doesn’t branch endlessly.
That said, you gotta figure that the Mirror Universe version of Tuvix got wind of the plan to split him in half and did some splitting of his own.
I don’t even think that the Mirror Universe version of Tuvix could happen. The only reason that Voyager was stranded was Janeways insistence of not letting the Kazon control the Caretakers Array/Kill the Ocampans. In the Mirror Universe, would that even happen? Either Janeway takes everyone back or they use the Array to control that section of the Delta Quadrant.
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