1st time house buyer, potentially serious structural issues found... anyone have advice re negotiating price reduction / if I should pull out?

Hey all.

Finally in my 40s I’m fortunate enough (with a lot of family help & a mortgage) to be buying a home. It’s end-of-terrace; just spoke to the surveyor today after he’s done most of the inspection and he’s found a lot of structural problems.

Feeling a bit defeated, it’s taken so long to get to this stage of having an offer accepted, and being close to exchanging contracts. It’s an old house so while I wasn’t expecting it to be fault-free, I’m quite disappointed and I guess looking for some advice / reassurance.

Not got the report in text yet but he mentioned potential subsidence; rising damp; cracked walls; problem with the chimney stack; window frames; and others. Said it’s all stuff that can be fixed, but potentially expensive. My plan is to wait for the text report next week, then contact the estate agent and attempt to negotiate a price reduction in line with the cost of the repairs, which imo will run into at least £15k. Considering it’s on the market for £85k, and the owner wouldn’t even put the electric on for viewing because she didn’t want to pay £1 a day standing charge, I’m anticipating some pushback.

But, should I even bother? Is this ‘sunk cost fallacy’ at play? I certainly feel like if they’re not prepared to negotiate re repairs then I have to walk away as I could buy a well-maintained property round here for the total cost of around £100k!

Any advice much appreciated.

xkforce,

Op… their transparent lie about not wanting to pay 1 pound a day to turn the electricity on should have told you to walk away let alone the structural issues.

Transcendant,

Yeah I took the explanation at face value, at first… but the more I think about it, in conjunction with not turning the water on it feels very much like they’re trying to pull a fast one.

ohlaph,

Walk away. If they’re cheap on electricity, they’re probably cheap on maintenance.

Transcendant,

Agreed. I’d already had some thoughts that it wasn’t the one but after all the advice I’ve gotten here, there’s no way I can buy this house.

randomTingler,

When you buy something that’s going to be with you till your last day, it should give happiness. You shouldn’t be anxious and sleepless at night because of that.

Crashumbc,

Foundation/structural issues are ALWAYS walk away.

Unless it’s cheap to basically rebuild. Or absolutely must have that particular house.

Transcendant,

Neither applies, I’m doing a Craig David and Walking Away for sure.

Telstarado,

Personally, unless you really love the house or location I’d walk away. I’d also be super surprised if issues found by a structural engineer can be fixed, particularly if you have to hire someone for a significant amount of that work, for just 15k, as after the structure is correct there’s a bunch of other aspects of the building’s construction that will have been disrupted and need fixing. If you need to hire a contractor for repairs it’d probably be more realistic to budget 50-80k for repairs.

If nearby homes exist in turnkey condition for 100k that’s your better bet. Not being willing to turn the electricity on in order to help a prospective buyer check out the place is a huge red flag with sirens attached as well. Structural problems can be very bad, electrical problems can burn the place down and kill everyone inside.

Walk away would be my suggestion.

Transcendant,

There’s nearby homes in turnkey condition for £90k, forget £100k! Like I said I have to wait until I have the full report in my inbox but it kinda feels like they’re trying to pull a fast one, especially with regard to the electrics / unsigned electrical cert. What company gives an electrical certificate but doesn’t bother to sign it? I don’t see how either the estate agent nor the seller had no idea it’s in such a bad state.

someguy3,

Walk away. Seriously.

CmdrShepard,

I’d just recommend not settling for something in poor condition just because you feel beat down or overwhelmed by the grind.

You will be filled with constant regret if you wind up buying some dilapidated property simply because you’re tired of the back and forth because once you sign the papers, you’re stuck with it. The process isn’t enjoyable, but try not to let that get to you.

Not sure what the exact condition of house is nor what contractors charge for work in your area, but in my area of the US, $15k isn’t going to get you very far on most projects. One of my coworkers just spent $27k to have an HVAC system installed and $40k for new windows. I think he got fleeced, but even halving those prices, you’re still being given a rough quote equivalent to these somewhat basic tasks for what sounds like serious structural work.

Transcendant,

Good advice re constant regret of being stuck with a lemon. I checked the prices for subsidence repair and the average in my area is £12500.

Nollij,

Ok, I have to ask- what the hell kind of place do they live where HVAC costs $27k and windows cost $40k? Were these new installations where there had never been ductwork or windows before? Because those are way, WAY out of line for replacements in a typical single family home. By about an order of magnitude.

But to your larger point, yes, structural work can very easily (and quickly) hit 6 digits. I wouldn’t accept it unless the terms are that the original owner makes the repairs first.

griefreeze,

As someone who just replaced all his downstairs windows for under $4k I also would like to know where this is so I can avoid it at all costs. Literally an order of magnitude difference is wild

CmdrShepard,

Yes the HVAC was a full install as he had an oil burning furnace with radiant floor heating prior to this. They installed an AC/furnace and ducting. The windows were through one of those sleazy companies like Renewal by Anderson and like I said I think he got fleeced on both jobs.

Silic0n_Alph4, (edited )

Walk away NOW. If the issues are known ahead of purchase insurance won’t cover them. You do NOT want to have to declare subsidence on your insurance quotes - most brokers just won’t cover you. Almost everything you said is a huge red flag and there are probably more “nice surprises” to come. If you have a mortgage approved already then go and find another property.

If this is your dream house, at least get a building & contents insurance quote before you go any further. You don’t want any further surprises.

Edit: source: bought a money-pit house, thought we had subsidence, we didn’t but it was a huge hassle and a lot of stress regardless. We got a bonus moth infestation out of it, though!

Transcendant,

The mortgage offer is until Aprl 2024, so there is still 5 or 6 months left. These responses are exactly the kind of experienced advice I was looking for, thanks

Silic0n_Alph4,

Happy to help! I wish I’d had as much foresight as you before buying my place…

Transcendant,

Sometimes overthinking everything can be a curse, in this scenario it seems to be more of a blessing for sure!

Emperor,
@Emperor@feddit.uk avatar

I bought my current place a year and a half ago - it was the fourth one I’d had an offer in on and the previous three had major structural issues (turns out 100+ year old houses built on same are a nightmare), at least two had subsidence. I have friends and family in the building trade and they reckon they’d be wary - houses like a that reach a point where, to continue for another century, they either need to get snapped up by a builder who can get the work done and flip it or someone highly motivated who can take on a project like this.

Your mileage might differ but I’d just spent 6 months and 50 grand putting the previous house on a raft of concrete that would outlast the next I’ve Age which was then used as a stick to beat us down on the price. So I was not in the right frame of mind to undertake another building project. And that’s what you should ask yourself - are you the kind of person that thrives on camping in their new house for months getting work done (and getting builders is trickier after the pandemic and more expensive)? What’s your budget like because this is the stuff the survey found but tearing into the place could reveal more? It has clearly not been well-maintained for a long time and there’s likely to be all sorts of other issues.

What level of survey did you have done? Have you had a structural engineer look it over?

I certainly feel like if they’re not prepared to negotiate re repairs then I have to walk away as I could buy a well-maintained property round here for the total cost of around £100k!

You’re clearly up north! If they aren’t prepared to negotiate then everyone should walk, if they weren’t prepared to come down closer to £50-60k then I’d definitely consider walking, as the modest savings don’t outweigh the stress. To be honest, if it were me, I’d be long gone already. Just reading this is giving me flashbacks.

Transcendant,

What level of survey did you have done? Have you had a structural engineer look it over?

We went for a full survey, the guy is RICS-registered but fairly young so assume he’s pricing cheap to get plenty of jobs and reviews under his belt. He did recommend a specific separate cavity inspection but at this point it feels like I’m probably going to be chucking more money down the drain considering all the other issues.

You’re clearly up north! If they aren’t prepared to negotiate then everyone should walk, if they weren’t prepared to come down closer to £50-60k then I’d definitely consider walking

Correct haha. Someone else said that a reduction of 15k is almost unheard of. Tbh I already was having a bad feeling, and reading all these responses has really crystalised that I simply cannot buy this house without a massive reduction… and even then it’s going to be a shitload of hassle, potentially more expenses that haven’t yet been uncovered. Will see what they say once we have the full report in writing. I don’t mind roughing it a bit, but managing a project like this I would think isn’t really in my wheelhouse and will be very stressful.

Thanks for your advice.

Emperor,
@Emperor@feddit.uk avatar

We went for a full survey, the guy is RICS-registered

Yeah, they’re chartered surveyors, you’d be wise to get a structural engineer to look it over if you were thinking of having underpinning and they might spot other things. I stopped getting chartered surveyors and asked a structural engineer I know to do the surveys - they a lot harsher.

Someone else said that a reduction of 15k is almost unheard of.

Percentage wise it’s a big chunk of change but, depending on the amount of underpinning required, it might not be enough.

even then it’s going to be a shitload of hassle

If the underpinning is not accessible from outside the floors will have to come up. Cracks in the walls may have to be dealt with by removing the plaster and tying the bricks back together then replastering. Depending on where the damp is coming from you might need a new roof - did they get up there or use a drone?

I don’t mind roughing it a bit, but managing a project like this I would think isn’t really in my wheelhouse and will be very stressful.

And money aside, this should be your deciding factor.

Transcendant,

The surveyor said he was actually surprised to find the roof in quite good condition… seems like at least one area where it’s either been properly maintained, or had very high-quality work performed.

I’ll definitely do some shopping around for structural engineers in the area for future surveys, might as well go in deep for the most expensive & important issues before moving forward with any future potential purchase. Great advice, thanks.

ballskicker,

Sounds like it comes down to your approach on risk management. Others have pretty clearly laid out the risks and frustrations of living in a house that’s being fixed/renovated, but if the seller is as negligent as they sound then I’d expect to find even more issues. If the inspection couldn’t cover anything pertaining to electricity then that’d be a huge red flag for me, that stuff can get real expensive real fast. Follow your gut and try not to fall for the sunk cost fallacy, it can be hard when you focus on how many hundreds of dollars and hours of time you’ve spent so far but it sounds like you’re looking at at least another several thousand dollars in repairs, and that’s only for the problems you’re currently aware of. Everybody’s situation is different so maybe this whole thing is right for you, but don’t ignore the red flags just because of how much you’ve already invested

Transcendant,

Follow your gut and try not to fall for the sunk cost fallacy

Have to say my gut is saying to walk away. Of course it’s me that has to make the decision end of the day, but the responses I’ve gotten here have clarified all the subconscious worries I had and given me a lot more to think about. Much appreciated, glad I made this post.

SHITPOSTING_ACCOUNT,

owner wouldn’t even put the electric on for viewing because she didn’t want to pay £1 a day standing charge

I bet the real reason is that turning on the power would reveal more trouble.

ericbomb,

Like power not being able to turn on.

Or circuits trip like crazy.

Transcendant,

I’m often told I can be negative with regards to the intentions of others but this definitely crossed my mind. I’ve reiterated many times the importance of the electrics being sorted because I write music, I’ll have ~£15k of equipment in one room and do not want my new home burning down or my kit damaged due to faulty wiring.

Interestingly / worryingly, the electrical cert they handed over at the start of this process hadn’t even been signed (though the company appears to exist).

Buddahriffic,

Not sure how the laws work in the UK for informing people about potential problems, but you might be doing someone else a solid if you forward the inspection report to the current owner and their agent with clear documentation proving you did even if you just plan on walking away at this point (which I would also suggest because even all the things the inspection found might only be scratching the surface).

Where I am, if you aren’t aware of a problem (and aren’t completely negligent to be unaware), you aren’t guilty of fraud for not declaring it. But if you do know about it and neglect to inform a buyer…

Transcendant,

This is a really good idea. My dad and I were saying yesterday it’s such a waste of resources for each buyer to have to get a survey done, especially where the property has hidden issues. Would be great to have some sort of national register, where the first person to pay for a survey can then give access to subsequent buyers for a nominal fee.

I’m definitely going to give the estate agent a politely-worded email stating clearly that the seller is being at best neglectful and at worst, deceptive. I’m sure they won’t be happy either about having their time wasted. I’ll also pass a copy of the survey on.

Buddahriffic,

The whole field is riddled with conflicts of interest. Everyone other than the buyer (and maybe their lawyer?) has an interest in a sale going through for as much money as possible, including the buyer’s agent. They should be flat fee rather than % of total price commission, or even better paid over time based on how satisfied the buyer is (though admittedly this might put too much power in the buyer’s hands because it’s also abusable).

Insurance might be able to help here, actually. Have a policy that covers everything that isn’t made clear before purchase. Then the insurance company sends an inspector and draws up a policy where they list everything they find as not covered, but any other surprise repairs or issues they will cover. Then it’s not up to the seller to declare or hide anything, they can just try to get the best price without any conflict of interest and one of the parties has a vested interest in informing the buyer about everything possible.

Transcendant,

I’ve done a bit of digging around into UK case law. Not sure whether it’s worth the hassle, but there’s a legal term ‘negligent misstatement’ which may be applicable. The tricky part is proving intent, if I can demonstrate that the seller has deliberately concealed pertinent information and massively overvalued the property… they might be liable for my costs.

Lots of ‘might’ in there though, and proving intent can be difficult. I’ve instructed solicitor to cease work on the exchange of contracts; wondering if I should say anything to the seller / estate agent. They wasted my time and probably £1000+ of my money, and I definitely feel a petty impulse to waste theirs in turn.

Buddahriffic,

Yeah, you probably won’t be able to get your money back but you can screw them out of being able to avoid declaring those issues your inspection found. Just pass the inspection on in a way that can be proven, then follow up by sending the same inspection to that address if a sale does happen along with information that you sent it to the sellers and your contact info.

Transcendant,

Yep I was in touch with solicitor today, and they confirmed it’s not worth the hassle pursuing. Though, they did seem to be misinformed re the need for a contract; a contract is required to ‘negligent misrepresentation’ but not for ‘negligent misstatement’.

Excellent idea about passing on the details of the survey to the estate agent, that way they at least have an established obligation for future potential buyers. And I’ll definitely keep an eye on it with a mind to informing the eventual poor sod who takes it on.

Skotimusj,

We need more information. Structural issues can be small or very big. Remember, the person doing an inspection has to over report everything possible because if they don’t , and something major happens after the sale, they can be sued. For me, I would take a look at how serious the issues are and decide if working on them is worth the time/effort/investment. I wouldn’t buy a car that had the front end crushed in an accident because, even after the repair, the final product is not something I would want to drive or have to deal with.

Transcendant,

I guess I can do an update once I have the report in writing. Someone has made the point that the surveyor will ‘over-survey’ to cover their arse, but for sure I’m very much leaning into the possibility that this purchase isn’t viable. Thanks.

Demonmariner,

You say it’s priced at 85K, repairs 15K. Would you buy it if it was in perfect condition for 100K? If so, buy it. If not, walk.

I don’t know what your local market is like, but in most places a seller won’t entertain that much price reduction.

Transcendant,

This is very sage advice. I mentioned this comment to my dad and we both didn’t take a heartbeat before responding “Definitely not” to the question of if we’d buy it in perfect condition for 100k.

DestroyerOfWorlds,

Walk away unless you plan on doing a large, time consuming, and expensive renovation. Don’t fall in love with the idea of what the property could be. Make sure it suits your needs now and the seller is much more transparent.

Bluefruit,

Yea unless you’re ready to fix (or more likely redo /replace) a lot of existing things while you live there, I’d walk unless they make a really compelling offer.

Renovations are really time consuming especially when you have a job, family, etc. And living in a renovation can be exhausting as you have to work around all the fixes until theyre done or at least usable. I speak from experience unfortunately.

That said, if the place is liveable and you can break things down into more manageable parts, could be worth it if again, they make a really compelling offer.

Transcendant,

Renovations are really time consuming especially when you have a job, family, etc. And living in a renovation can be exhausting as you have to work around all the fixes until theyre done or at least usable. I speak from experience unfortunately.

Am self employed, single so I guess that’s going for me in this respect. Writing music would be pretty difficult though with drilling and hammering going on through the rest of the house! Thanks for your advice.

Bluefruit,

As a fellow music maker i feel that. And absolutely, happy to help. Best of luck to you.

Transcendant,

the seller is much more transparent.

Am trying to take the attitude of not taking it personally, it’s just business and the seller is trying to maximise what they get for the house… but it’s hard not to feel deceived. They surely must have known there are serious issues and clearly have not priced the house accordingly. It’s frustrating to have to dig out these issues, every buyer is going to pay for a survey and waste money finding out things that should really have been disclosed by the seller.

Apparently in Norway, the seller pays for and provides a survey to all prospective buyers. Seems a much more efficient and fair way of doing things.

DestroyerOfWorlds,

In the US there are some things covered in the survey and some not. We paid for an independent home inspector to go top to bottom of ours before purchase. I tested the water, had the most recent electrician go over our system, and talked to the neighbors about the history of the property. It was very good to have all that information and worth the money to pay for. It greatly reduced the worry and I got to know the property before buying it.

Transcendant,

Yeah peace of mind is priceless. Plus as I’m buying via a mortgage, there’s no question about getting surveys done… iirc the provider would be content with a ‘basic’ survey but I felt like it was worth the extra ~£80 to go for a more in-depth one!

Am trying to look at it not as £500 wasted, but a £500 expense that’s saved me from potentially making a very bad purchase.

ryathal,

If you aren’t comfortable with managing repairs, walk away. The repairs will likely take months and can be very disruptive.

It sounds like there are some very pricey repairs, chimneys are generally expensive and require specialized masons. Replacing windows can be expensive, but if the house doesn’t have double pane windows, the insulation benefits can offset the cost.

The biggest worry is the moisture issues, rising damp and bad window frames could mean significant water damage is discovered as part of repairs. Cracked walls can also be a big deal depending on the root cause, foundation issues are really bad.

Transcendant,

I do have somewhere within walking distance where I can stay while works are being completed. Windows I’m not so much worried about, as estate agent said she had similar issues and just did the windows one at a time as budget allowed. The damp / potential subsidence though is my biggest concern. It’s likely the provider would pull the mortgage offer based on that, and there’s no way I’d get building insurance with issues like this.

ryathal,

If you really like the location you might consider trying to negotiate a vastly reduced price for the land and do a demo and rebuild.

Transcendant,

Am not sure I’d be able to do that, it’s attached to another house; planning permissions I imagine would be a nightmare; it’s likely they’ll balk at any reductions in price let alone a massive reduction; and iirc the terms of my mortgage are specifically for a house purchase not a house build.

Dream idea though, I was looking at land the other day thinking how cool it would be to be able to just buy some land and build a house on it. Potentially cheaper than buying, just a huge project to manage.

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