Help me choose automatic espresso machine

LebruhJame, 10 months ago

Take a look a the Decent Espresso V1 from Seattle or splurge for a La Marzocco

rambos, 10 months ago

Thanks, but seems like they are not available where I live. Also looks expensive 🫣

coffeewithalex, 10 months ago

Consider a compromise between traditional espresso machines and button to cup ones, in the form of Breville Oracle. It’s only a bit more effort than just a button, but what you get is better coffee than similarly priced automated machines, the opportunity to use it as a traditional machine if you wanna, and the ease of cleaning.

rambos, 10 months ago

Thank you, but I’m bit confused tbh. When I google Breville Oracle I only see 2k $ or more

namelessdread, 10 months ago

They might be talking about the Breville Bambino, which I think is the smallest of the Breville machines and is more like $300. I can’t speak for that one specifically, but I have a Breville Barista Express and I absolutely love it. Having the grinder built in makes it so easy to use.

rambos, 10 months ago

Thank you. I just found its called Sage in Europe. Barista Express looks powerful. More expensive, but Ill take a look. Bambino is ~350€, but then Id need a grinder as well. Might be better, but I think I’ll stick with automatic machine this time. Will see myself Philips, Delonghi and hopefully Breville as well on Wednesday in store.

rambos, 10 months ago

I’d like to replay to each of you but, but don’t want to type 5 messages :D

Thank you all for input. I understand that I have to sacrifice some quality, but automatic machine would be an upgrade and best coffee experience will still be in my favorite coffee shop anyway. I think I want reliable machine for my daily fresh brew that can save tiny amount of time every morning for more chill before work. All models I linked look the same and they probably are, now I see you have positive experience with similar machines so I hope I can’t go wrong with any of them.

Its nice to read only good things about delonghi. Ill check Philips and Gaggia as well. I might consider semi-automatic + grinder when I move again hehe, it takes time to gain more room on kitchen tabletop hehe.

I’m super excited, thx a bunch <3

aitmanga, 10 months ago

I'm not familiar with that particular model, but I've had a Phillips Saeco 2200 for nearly three years and I love the convenience of it. It's easy to clean and the espressos it makes are pretty consistent.

Astroturfed, 10 months ago

Super automatic coffee machines are not going to be quiet as good. I own one, I made peace with that before I bought one. Making coffee with the push of a couple buttons is just worth it. I work from home and the time is saves in the morning, every morning is amazing. I bought a Phillips 4300 over 2 years ago and haven’t had a single issue with it. The latte go piece makes a decent enough zero effort latte, espresso is pretty decent. Easy to clean and maintain.

Nick, 10 months ago

First, congratulations on moving into a new, larger place!

I have no personal experience with these machines, but might offer a word of caution. All-in-one espresso machines tend to make sacrifices in final cup quality in pursuit of convenience. This is perfectly fine if you want an easy to use machine that makes passable coffee, but if you think you’ll ever end up wanting something more from your setup (at the cost of a more involved brew process), having a separate semi-automatic machine + grinder will make it easier to do so in the future. If you fall into the latter category, I’d be happy to make some recommendations tailored to your budget and continent. If you favor convenience, I’m sure the De’Longhi or other superautomatic machines will be very well-suited to you.

Edited to add: I’m by no means an expert on coffee machines and have no industry experience, just an enthusiast who has tinkered with a couple different espresso machines for personal enjoyment and on behalf of friends and family.

fullflyermokoko, 10 months ago

True, you have to sacrifice some cup quality and fine tuning with automatic espresso machines, but I still love my Delonghi Magnífica XS. It gives me pretty decent espresso, is fast, reliable, easy to maintain and easy to use; sometimes even, stars align and it brings a delicious cup.

I work from home and had to decide between this and a entry level “real” espresso machine and had to accept that I really needed a fast work flow to get my coffee fix during work hours and to get a nice fast latte or cappuccino for breakfast. If I have the time to prepare a outstanding cup, I turn to my V60. If I have even more time, I go to some coffee shop to get a great espresso.

Nick, 10 months ago

Absolutely! Picking a coffee machine is a lot of personal preference, and I hope I didn’t come across as an all-in-one hater. I think lots of people will be perfectly happy with an all-in-one machine, especially for the result you get with almost no effort. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve daydreamed about a more automatic setup after 45 minutes of playing barista at family gatherings.

Urist, 10 months ago

I recently graduated and have been thinking about getting a coffee machine as a present to myself. I have a filter coffee machine (this might be herecy, but former me needed quantity over quality). Both me and my gf enjoy coffee very much, so I think we will be able to make space for it. I think she would be really happy being able to make cappuccino and similar brews, while I myself just want the pure dark gold. Could you give any pointers on where to start looking and/or specific suggestions?

Nick, 10 months ago

Congratulations on graduating! I’d be happy to make some suggestions, and I’ll try to provide a little bit of the reasoning behind them so you can see if they match your/your girlfriend’s use case. I’m also going to make mostly entry level recommendations, but feel free to let me know if you’re looking for something more involved.

Filter CoffeeAs far as just the black filter coffee for you, I don’t think you’re going to get a better result from a machine than you would from a very basic pour over setup. You do not need a gooseneck kettle for these brewers, but they will really improve the experience. My personal favorite is the Hario V60, but it does have a bit of a learning curve as opposed to flat-bottom brewers like the Kalita Wave, Fellow Stagg [X] Dripper, or Blue Bottle Dripper. I would pick a conical (V60 or otherwise) if you wanted more clarity and complexity from your brews (greater separation of flavors in the coffee) and a flat-bottom brewer if you want a more rounded flavor and more consistency. These distinctions will only really matter if you start to get deeper into the rabbit hole, but it’s worth mentioning now. If you’re looking to splurge for a more aesthetic brewer, the Chemex is gorgeous, but also takes up a lot more space than the other brewers, which I like for their more compact size and ability to store them in a drawer. A slightly cheaper option that has a similar profile to the Chemex but a bit cheaper would be the Hario V60 Drip Coffee Decanter.

You could also consider getting something like the Hario Switch or Clever Dripper if you’re looking for something a bit easier. The big benefit of this route is that they’re extremely compatible with the standard kettles found in most homes. They’re like an in between of a pour over and a french press, and you could actually just use them as pour over brewers if you leave their draining mechanism open. It being an immersion brew makes it much more forgiving for good results, and also won’t be as dependent on a grinder. The Hario Switch uses V60 filters, which are relatively easy to find at coffee shops. The Clever Dripper uses the even more common Melitta #4 style filters, which you should be able to find in practically any grocery store. You really can’t go wrong with either one in my opinion, but I’m biased towards the V60 since I enjoy conical brewers so much.

Of course, you could always go for a for a french press, if you enjoy the thicker mouthfeel that this style of brew provides by virtue of not filtering quite so much out. However, I think the lack of a filter makes it a bit more troublesome to clean up, especially since coffee isn’t really ideal for the drain. I like being able to scoop out a filter and dump it into the compost for the garden.

Espresso MachinesSage/Breville Bambino Plus - $500/£400/530€ at time of commentingThis is probably the most easy recommendation that I could make for someone who is looking to just dip their toes into espresso. Sage/Breville did a lot right with this machine, and it’s actually the machine I got for my mother. It comes with both single and double walled baskets, so you can use them with pre-ground coffee if you do not have a grinder suitable for espresso. It’s got a decent amount of space between the drip tray and the group head, so you can fit even taller mugs down there. The steam wand is remarkable at the price point that it’s at, and the automatic milk steaming does a pretty decent job if you decide that you don’t want to learn to steam milk. You can control the temperature level and the amount of air introduced to the milk, so your gf can pick between cappuccinos, lattes, and flat whites depending on her mood. The boiler does some magic when it comes to warming up, which is great for mornings where you’re in a rush.

If I had to identify some shortcomings of the Bambino Plus, it’s gotta be the drip tray. It’s a really small drip tray, so you’ll be cleaning it out often. Further, the 53mm portafilter can feel a bit restrictive, even if it’s a great space saving measure for the countertop, it means you will not be able to fit as much into the basket. The manual shot mode does feel a bit tacked on, but it’s understandable for a beginner machine, and I don’t think you’d use it too much. I also would not recommend this machine if you plan on making a lot of drinks back to back. A shortcoming of the extremely quick boiler is that you’re probably putting a decent amount of strain on the part if you’re consistently making 5-6 drinks before giving it a bit of a break. I haven’t had the chance to open up my mother’s and take a look inside, so I also can’t speak to its repairability. It shouldn’t be too much of an issue though, as Sage/Breville is pretty good about out of warranty repairs in my own experience, so long as you’re willing to pay. Further, my mom has had it going on two years without any issues whatsoever.

This is unequivocally the choice that I would make for a total beginner to espresso who wants to feel a bit like a barista as well as have some room for growth as they improve. You can opt for the cheaper Bambino without sacrificing much at all, mostly just the automatic steaming capabilities, but I think that learning to texture milk does take a bit of work. However, if your gf is fine with dedicating some time to learning to steam milk, opting for the regular Bambino as opposed to the Bambino Plus is a good way to save some money as well.

*Gaggia Classic Pro - $500/£430-500/€479 New (Prices will vary if you can find a used one)*This is the machine that I would recommend if you either don’t mind or think that you would like tinkering around with an espresso machine. One big perk of these machines is that they really are completely user serviceable, so you can find a fixer upper on secondhand sites or thrift stores and completely restore it. You can pretty consistently find these machines in working condition for 100-200 $/£/€ online. There’s a dedicated Gaggia community with plenty of guides for every repair that you could possibly make. The interior of the Gaggia even has room for upgrades if you feel up to it, and the community is constantly developing mods to improve the capability of this entry level device. The Gaggia was my first espresso machine, and I was the third owner of a decade old machine when I got my hands on it. I had it for two years before upgrading, and handed it down to my cousin who is still using it to this day. I think that if it weren’t for the Gaggia, I would not have the bravery to tinker with machines like I do now. I’m by no means trained in any sort of mechanical or electrical field, and I was able to use the guides to figure out how to rewire, repair, and modify my Gaggia. It gave me a great understanding and appreciation for the inner workings of an espresso machine, and I’m extremely grateful for the experience. Like the Bambino, it comes with single and double-walled baskets.

However, this machine is definitely not without its shortcomings, and since I’m intimately familiar with them, it might sound like I’m being a bit harsh on the Gaggia. I wouldn’t say that this machine isn’t beginner friendly, but you will not get as good a result as you would from the Bambino right out of the box (unless you’re much more of a natural than I am). It only has a manual shot mode, so you’ll have to stop the shot on your own after determining that the size is right. This isn’t an issue if you have a scale to weigh your shots or if you’re good at judging volume if that’s how you choose to do it, but the use of a scale makes another issue apparent. The drip tray is very spacious, which is lovely, but that comes at the cost of being able to fit taller diner style mugs under the group head. I know that you can buy aftermarket drip trays that give more room for mugs, and some people have designed their own, so this issue can be dealt with. If you get an older secondhand Gaggia, I would go so far as to say that the older panarello-style steam wand is unusable. It’s a mere $10 to replace it with a Rancilio Silvia v2 style steam wand, but it’s worth noting that it’s something you may end up needing to do. The steam wand is also not as powerful as the Sage/Breville Bambino’s steam wand. It is capable of steaming milk to a nice glossy texture, but it’s definitely more challenging than premium machines. The included tamp is also nearly unusable. The shape is awkward and the weight makes it even worse to use. I would recommend getting almost any other 58mm tamp for it.

If you do choose to get a Gaggia, there is a clear separation between older models and newer models (I believe “new” means anything past 2018). Gaggia released a revamped version of the Gaggia Classic Pro, with more options for color and an improved steam wand. However, this came at the cost of a change in how the OPV springs work. If you wanted to change the pressure of the newer Gaggia classics, you would have to purchase springs online to replace them. When I modified my pressure, I simply used a hex tool after opening it up. I would happily get a Gaggia again, but that’s because I really value the repairability, and I know parts are available for me to do my own repairs

Final ThoughtsI’m brushing up on the character limit, so I’ll try to round off my comment cleanly, but feel free to ask any further questions or request clarification/elaboration. I personally would not buy a superautomatic machine unless I had a very large budget. Cheaper espresso machines with built in grinders that promise to do it all are generally not very capable. They do not actually reach 15 bars of pressure (which is way too much anyways) and they will not texture milk nicely or grind coffee well. If you want milk drinks on a budget (relatively speaking), look into the semiautos I recommended or others. If those are too expensive, please let me know and I can try to think of suitable alternatives :)

Urist, 10 months ago

Thanks so much for the detailed answer! I think a semiauto would be a good fit for me and the Bambino does look quite nice :) How big is the effect of freshly ground vs preground beans? I have no grinder at the moment, but am not opposed to getting a dedicated one. However, if I were to say go to my local coffee roastery and buy some fresh ground beans, would I be missing out on the experience?

Nick, 10 months ago

I think the Bambino fits a lot into a pretty compact machine, making it great if you have limited space. As far as preground vs. fresh beans, I really think that you’ll be alright with just preground as long as you drink it fast enough. Especially if space is a concern, since an electric grinder takes up a pretty large amount of space. I’d say that if you’re comfortable going through the bag of beans in about a week, getting them preground at the shop is a totally fine option until you decide you want/need a grinder. This will vary based on your preferred roast level (darker roasts will offgas more quickly, which means their flavor will peak sooner, but also stale more quickly), but as long as you store it in an airtight container I’m sure this won’t have too much of an impact.

There is one excellent case for preground that might actually make the experience better: the quality of the grinder at the coffee shop. Even a basic shop should have a Mazzer Super Jolly, and a nice third-wave shop in the area will have a grinder that costs thousands. If you go through the coffee fast enough, these grinders will outperform any entry level grinder when it comes to espresso. You would only be missing out on the experience of dialing in a coffee, but I don’t think that’s necessarily worth the money it’d cost to buy a grinder. I’d explore the free option first, but once again I’d be more than happy to make some grinder recommendations if you’d like.

Urist, 10 months ago

Great! That is sort of what I had hoped you would say. Having the option to start without taking grinders into consideration makes everything a little easier. However, since you are now officially my coffee guru, if you have any tips for grinders I would welcome them as well. One thing I am a little unsure of is what ranges of fine to coarse it is possible to get in a single grinder, without affecting the overall quality of an espresso grind in particular. If I could have a bag of beans that I could grind appropriate for filter, french press and espresso at the same time, that would be really neat.

Nick, 10 months ago

Many grinders can go from extremely coarse to extremely fine, but the important mark of an espresso capable grinder is the ability to make miniscule adjustments to the grind size. The difference in grind size between a perfectly extracted shot and a passable one is pretty marginal. This is not the case for filter and french press coffee, where there’s not as much need for fine adjustments. You might also find that what you prefer in a grind profile for an espresso is different from what you’d like in a filter coffee. People who prefer traditional espresso with a silky texture and stronger mouthfeel to it will probably like burrs that produce more fines, which give the shot more body. In filter coffee though, this will just lead to a muddy, overextracted brew. This difference is so stark that some people buy aftermarket burrs to swap out for their preferred brew method. A company called Niche recently released a grinder called the Niche Duo that has an almost hotswapping system for the grinder to make this process easier. You probably won’t find an electric grinder capable of doing both espresso and filter for under a thousand without some work on your part.

The alternative though is to use hand grinders. There are multiple premium hand grinders that produce amazing coffee for much cheaper than their electric counterparts. Relatively upstart brands like 1zpresso have multiple different hand grinders targeted at specific brew methods, but the 1zpresso JX Pro is really capable of doing both brew methods to a surprisingly good degree. There’s also established titans like the Comandante, which is featured in many barista competitions. Hand grinding for espresso isn’t too hard, but it will definitely work out your forearms, and I wouldn’t really recommend it for people who have arm/wrist issues. I can grind enough for my morning shot in about 30 seconds.

If you really wanted to get a grinder, I would focus on just getting one for now, and potentially picking up another to supplement the original grinder later. I went with a hand grinder to start with, but now I use both a hand grinder and an electric grinder. I hand grind for espresso, since I pull fewer espresso shots and have an espresso-focused hand grinder, and I use my electric grinder for filter brews. It was just a bit of a pain to swap back between grind settings for espresso and filter, especially when espresso requires such careful adjustments to it. This was really just a quick rundown on grinders, and was by no means exhaustive. If you’re interested in going down the rabbit hole, Lance Hedrick on YouTube has numerous videos on the topic of hand grinders, and is far more knowledgeable about the topic than I could ever be. His full reviews are lengthy and nerdy deep dives, but it’s useful to have this repository before spending money.

Urist, 10 months ago

I’ve watched through a few of his videos and they seem like a good resource for deep dives. Will definitively keep watching while pondering some of these questions. Thanks so much for all the tips and guidance! :)

Nick, 10 months ago

Absolutely! Always happy to help someone get into the hobby :) feel free to reach out anytime

hystericallymad, 10 months ago

I’m pretty content with my Gaggia Velasca. I will admit it is not a traditional espresso machine, but it fulfills the need. With it, and the collection of syrups, I can make anything you can get at a coffee house which is nice.