Shadows on the Forest Floor - an interview with Mason Winfield on the Little People of the Six Nations ( theobservermagazine.substack.com )

You’re walking in a thick forest, alone. It’s late afternoon, so it’s starting to get dark. The shadows are growing longer. Suddenly you notice that it’s eerily quiet. The birds have stopped singing, the bugs aren’t buzzing, and everything seems to be unnaturally still. Then you hear it. Or did you? Was that a footfall? A voice? A growl? Is your mind playing tricks on you? Did you hear someone (or something) moving around out there?

WAIT! The sounds are right behind you. How is that possible? You slowly turn around and come face-to-face with…OMG, WHAT IS THAT?!

Writer and researcher Mason Winfield has been trying to answer questions like these for over 25 years. But not just ones involving enigmatic and elusive forest dwellers like the Pukwudgie or little people. He also investigates hauntings, UFOs, strange beasts, Native American supernaturalism, ancient mysteries, and a myriad of other occult phenomena as he conducts his “supernatural safari” across the state of New York. When he’s not busily writing, conducting Haunted History Ghost tours, lecturing, or making media appearances, he’s deeply involved with East Aurora’s Arts & Crafts Movement Community, Roycroft.

After a recent lecture and intense Q&A session regarding the presence of Pukwudgies in New York, Mason kindly consented to an interview.

Bernie: Thank you for making time for The Observer’s readers. This is a topic I know they are very interested in and always want to learn more about.

Mason: No problem Bernie, glad to oblige. What would you like to know?

B: You began investigating ghosts, Native American spirituality, supernatural folklore, and general paranormal phenomenon in upper New York state back in the early nineties. Did you uncover reports of encounters with Pukwudgies and little people back then?

M: First of all, I live in Iroquois/Longhouse/Six Nations territory. Most of the material I come up with seems influenced by the Iroquoians. The Longhouse folk call their Little People either just that, or Jogao, nicknamed, “Jungies.” I did pick up a few Little People reports at the start, and they mystified me. It took awhile to recognize a pattern. I just thought each of the first few was a one- off. This is a rare apparition-category, and you simply need a lot of reports to establish a profile. It became one of the top surprises in my study of the upstate paranormal. The idea that contemporary, apparently sane witnesses, non-ghost-people, would report sightings and occasionally develop relationships with figures of mythology was a hard one to get my head around.

B: I was only familiar with reports of Pukwudgie encounters in what is called the Bridgewater Triangle and Hockomock Swamp area in Massachusetts. Are these the same individuals as they are in New York? Or are they different?

M: I presume you mean “the same species” rather than, “the same individuals.” I would rely on the insights of my Six Nations and Algonquin friends. Most of them believe that the Pukwudgies and Iroquoian Little People are the same thing. The variances in custom about their habits, nature, and appearance is pretty normal in folklore. If you believe they truly exist, it would also be normal for eyewitness reports to vary. It’s quite common for them to be reported in zones, though, and very often ones that were known for it to the earlier inhabitants.

B: Are the Algonquin Pukwudgies and the Iroquois Little People the same thing?

M: The lore and legends about them are quite similar in the big picture, and my contacts among the Six Longhouse Nations and the Algonquin people believe they are the same beings, merely witnessed in different cultural territory.
A sampling of Mason’s books

B: There are stories of little people from all over the world. Specifically, in Ireland where they are sometimes called “The Wee Folk.” Are there any similarities between this global phenomenon and western N.Y.’s little people? Could they be considered as a “lost race?”

M: The Little People are called a lot of things in Celtic countries. This is a very developed subject. There are many similarities in world tradition about the Little People. It’s one of the remarkable features of the phenomenon. I certainly wouldn’t call the Little People “a lost race,” or at least, not in any other sense than to say that one of the explanations for the existence of the Little People in folklore is that their legends are inspired by prior inhabitants of the land, perhaps marginalized populations driven out of the favorable territory to the remote areas. There they become mystery-figures and thence figures of storytelling that change over time. That, however, is only one of the handful of theories for the origin of the tradition. The true answer is probably part of all of them.

B: Are most encounters with the Pukwudgies dangerous? How do they react when they come face to face with people? And where do these run-ins most commonly take place?

M: None of the ones I’ve heard of are dangerous. Some of the folkloric encounters are potentially ill-intended. The Little People tend to be Healers and Tricksters, according to Edmund Wilson in his fine book, Apologies to the Iroquois (1969), which isn’t even focused on folklore. I confirm his observation. These diminutive supernaturals can be wrong-righters of any sort. If you need a lesson, you can get that, too. I would add this caveat: One of the customs of the Little People is that they have a fascination with human children. Sometimes they are thought to take them away. Some of the truly creepy stories in my files come from families whose children have encountered Little People. Most reported encounters take place in natural settings, though I’ve heard of a few reports of a tricky little friend who visits a child in the home. Others may be observed in a natural setting and continue to stalk the child in the dream-state.

B: Do the little people seek out interactions with humans, or do they avoid it? What would a typical, if there is a typical encounter, be like?

M: All encounters are different. Some seem to like to show themselves and even interact with humans. With most, the sighting is like that of a ghost: quick, quiet, and fleeting.

B: What about people who claim to have been “kidnapped” by these forest beings?

M: If you recall, a member of the audience asked me about the experiences of Six Nations folk who had spent time, as children or adults, in the presumed company of the Little People. “Do these people come back unharmed?” He asked. As I answered, in the storytelling of the Northeast, when adults go with the fairies, they often come back with a make-over, including new talents and sometimes dramatic physical improvement–healed, strengthened, or glamorized. In paranormal-style reports, sometimes those experiences are a little more sinister. Like not returning the child they abducted, or substituting a Changeling in its place. The rich folklore has many such tales.

I’ve never met anyone who had presumably been “taken” as a child or an adult and returned, but I’d met people who knew someone like that, often a departed family member. Some of the ones I’d heard about had happy-enough lives, but never normal ones.

B: As an investigator and writer, have you ever had a first hand experience with any of these beings? Or any other type of paranormal experiences? How about ghosts or UFOs?

M: I am not a paranormal investigator as such. I’m a writer and researcher. I do the work of a folklorist or historian in these fields, though I don’t claim either title. There’s a plague of false titles in the paranormal. The least I can do is not add to it. I have never had any personal encounter with Little People, cryptids, or UFOs. I do believe I’ve seen a few ghosts and observed some instances of other types of psychic phenomena. They were all subtle. Only after analysis did I reach the conclusion that they were more likely to be paranormal than natural.

B: To tell the truth, I am fascinated with reports of little people and Pukwudgies. Are these sightings only localized to the east coast, or do they occur in other parts of the U.S.A.? How closely associated are they with Native American tradition and beliefs?

M: Little People exist in the traditions of almost every indigenous culture of the Americas. They are common in many cultures in the European West, too. The Celtic and Germanic are perhaps the most familiar to the majority of people in the U.S. Traditions of the Little People are often very private in the cultures of many Native nations. I always tell people never to push their Native friends on this subject. You could inadvertently seriously offend them. It is still this way. I do occasionally encounter fairy-style reports coming from individuals whose ancestry is Celtic or Germanic. In those cases, the beings often correspond to the traditions of their ancestors’ part of the world. White people most often see white fairies–when they do report seeing them, of course. Likewise with indigenous Native Americans. I don’t know exactly what this says, but i’s a cultural phenomenon in itself.

B: Do you have any advice on how someone could go about searching out these beings? Do they favor certain areas over others? What should a person do if they encounter one of these races? Or would you be better off leaving them alone?

M: I don’t have any tips for spotting the Little People as I seriously doubt they or any other aspect of the paranormal come when they are called. There are traditional zones and regions in which the Little People figure in folklore about New York State and surely other parts of the world. The odds would seem to go up in one of those zones, but I can’t encourage the effort. Besides, most of these fabled zones are buried in the old records of the state, if even remembered anywhere at all in any form. We’ve displaced most of the Native Americans, in New York State, don’t forget. Few are still living on their ancestral turf, and site traditions have been lost forever. If you had a time machine and could go back to interview people–and get them talking to you–from earlier centuries, you might get somewhere.

There are several reasons for the mainstream not to accept psychic phenomena and other figments of the paranormal. One of them is that they are rarely experienced. The world overwhelmingly behaves according to material laws.

I believe incidents involving other types of psychic phenomena–ghosts, ESP, premonitions, poltergeist outbreaks–are rare, but still a Hell of a lot more common than reports of fairies. It goes that way in my files, for sure. I have hundreds of ghosts for every Little-People-story. When people ask me how they can see something paranormal, I just say to them, “Be very perceptive in your daily life.” Once in a while you may spot, hear, or feel something that shouldn’t be there. Maybe it will have a paranormal cause. You’ll seldom know. Life is not like TV.

B: Are you planning on writing a new book investigating these phantoms of the forest in greater detail?

M: I wouldn’t do a book on them in greater detail because I don’t think greater detail is there, at least not credibly. There’s only so far we can go with this stuff expecting it to be able to prove to people it exists.

B: Do you have any final thoughts on these unusual beings and our human relationship with them?

M: I have a host of them. I think I’d end by simply saying that my interest in the Little People is twofold, one pertaining to folklore and another to the psychic/paranormal. I’m interested in:

Most importantly, preserving a legacy of storytelling/folklore that I find beautiful, fascinating and unfortunately neglected.

Raising the speculation that the widespread phenomenon of Little People reports says, at the least, something profound about human perception and consciousness. There’s a pattern there, and that’s what we ought to be studying.

B: Do you have any final thoughts you'd like to share with our readers on how they can begin exploring their local lore and Native American mythologies?

M: The first step is always to go to the local historians. They will help you identify the Native nations that held the land you live on. They can guide you to whatever published material is available. One of the local colleges may hold a specialist who could guide you, too. Finally, don’t neglect the old county histories. Not many are detailed, but some hold nuggets that can really help your research. Try to track down all the references to the First Nations people in your area.

B: How can people get in touch with you to book a Haunted History Ghost Walk or speaking engagement?

M: They can visit masonwinfield.com, or message me on Facebook.

B: Thank you Mason, that was five stars all around!

M: My pleasure, Bernie. I hope readers enjoyed learning more about the little people of the Six Nations.

This article is based on Winfield’s standing room only lecture:
LITTLE PEOPLE AND PUKWUDGIES IN NEW YORK
Presented at the Pine Bush UFO and Paranormal Museum on May 2Oth, 2023.