The Democracy of the founding fathers was Greek Democracy, predicated upon a slave society, and restricted to only the elite. This is the society we live in today, even with our reforms towards direct representation. The system is inherently biased towards the election of elites and against the representation of the masses....
This is exactly why the dismantling of capitalism in a post authoritarian world has so far always resulted in starvation. You have no sufficient answer to this question that addresses actual human behavior. It inevitably results in forced labor and oppression in the name of humanity.
I don’t think you realize how quickly things devolved into starvation under the Soviet Union or early CCP. They then very quickly shifted to centralized planning. This isn’t a question of scale or perception. It was immediate and required a change very quickly.
Yes, take out the checks on power inherent within private corporatism and you get full on communism. It’s not better. Add in racism and you make genocide extremely efficient as the state controls all resources.
Imagine if Israel completely controlled the means of production over Palestine as would be your preferred system. Would that make the genocide less effective? We wouldn’t even be talking about it in the current tense regardless of how taken you are by the Hamas claims since 2006.
It appears to me that Israel did not have full economic power over the Gaza strip like they would under a command economy and the elected government of Hamas used that to prepare to kill over a thousand civilians in Israel. To bad they weren’t authoritarian like you would prefer and they could fully stamp out the Arabs in the region. Funny how it goes both ways sometimes.
I’m perfectly happy not spending 90% of my time and energy feeding my family. You may think that would be a better life but industrial farming does have a lot of benefits, through either command or liberal economics. It’s there that the liberal system shines bright as a command economy requires local production to motivate workers for the above reasons.
When you place economic decisions from a profit driven one into the hands of the politician, you get just as perverse incentives. What’s even worse is that the government cannot fail so the system just gets progressively worse until the entire system collapses. I’m good with a liberal system as is with some moderate reforms to account for externalities.
This is a conversation on left economics. Gaza has literally nothing to do with it except as a case study in power. You brought it up. You are the one projecting. I’m bringing us back on topic.
Sorry, I missed the part where they were planning production and redistributing the returns. I guess there’s still work to be done to complete control. I’m not sure why you think this would be better. Please address this point. You are bouncing around it. I don’t care about Israel in this discussion.
Political archives where there is an incentive to cover up your own actions and lie about production is not an inherently trustworthy source. There were no third party validation of the narratives that corroborate them but plenty that poke holes in them. The reason why the West seemed so untrustworthy relative to the East at the time was due to a relatively free press. Amazing how checks on power degrade trust in one faction but also keep it relatively honest.
Giving full economic power to the state does not make you less fascist. It actually makes it much worse.
Just a reminder to the true leftists who think they can force through their better society by giving society more power over the individual without changing the culture in the first place.
The true marxist based left is not woke. It never was. There’s a reason that the western left turned liberal in the 50s and 60s and focused on reform. The CCP killed any thought that decentralized communes could be self-sufficient and centralization killed any concept of liberalism and a responsive command economy. If the majority can vote their way into resources, minorities suffer. With no opposition checking the ruling party, corruption sets in.
If you are referring to the American Democratic party, they are liberal and not left.
Bosnia, Rwanda, and multiple acts carried out by the Janjaweed to name some of the more recent ones. Most of the other more recent ones were perpetrated by states against stateless peoples which also shouldn’t speak too kindly to your narrative.
Decentralization in true left states results in starvation every single time. Centralization results in oppression. The USSR and the CCP went through each of these phases but almost every smaller example does too. The negative relations between the USSR and the CCP even started out as a disagreement around the USSR not following true decentralization until the starvation started.
I don’t know what to tell you other than the fact that it has been tried. It is not a matter of states failing to follow Karl Marx’ best guidance around decentralization. It fails that quickly.
I think the point is that giving them full economic power would not make the situation better and once the politicians are solved, we wouldn’t need the economic change anyways.
I understand the definition of fascism. You are missing the portion by which corporations are not allowed to exist if they do not further the efforts of the state. Basically exactly the same as Marx advised towards the end of his writings. Nothing is allowed to exist in a socialist system if it is perceived to work against the needs of the people (state)
There is functionally no difference between corporations that do not control the means of production even if they are charged with running it and a state fully owning the means. It’s just middle management.
Government provided healthcare is not inherently communist or socialist. I’m not the moron here. You aren’t even talking on close to the same level. Also, the American Democratic party is not left. Not even close.
Yes, they were trying to build a state. Building systems is a natural progression within human nature. You can try to decentralize it all you want but it just enables optimism. Anything that counts that would require centralized education, aka requiring a state to function and enforce.
Just like the Soviets and CCP attempted to do before they learned how poor decentralized planning was without incentives. The CCP literally complained about how the Soviet Union wasn’t following the true path of decentralized communes as their people starved. This is literally history. You can argue all you want about how what the Soviet Union and CCP became wasn’t true anarchism but they literally tried it initially and it failed miserably.
Even Karl Marx said that his intent was more of a direction than blueprints because he didn’t have it all figured out. He also said that allowing opposition parties couldn’t be allowed within any socialist system which cements the concentration of power and eventually consultation.
All this is why the Western left turned to liberal reform approaches in the 50s.
That is a result of the perception that those groups work against the state, not a requirement for fascism. Communist systems have just as bad if not worse a track record in regards to minority oppression as fascist ones.
Your first step is to educate literally everyone on how a stateless society works for it to work. Next you have to convince them it will work. I’ve known a lot more anarchists than you think. If you cannot convince literally everyone to play along, anarchy fails. You’ve already failed because you cannot convince me and likely will always fail for roughly 30% of the population about any topic. Counter culture will always exist. If your system does not allow for it, you have set yourself up for failure. You have set us all up for failure.
The USSR attempted to decentralize initially and it failed miserably by their own metrics. The CCP looked at what they became and said they didn’t do it right because they centralized. They starved and then centralized planning. Now you are telling me that there’s never been an attempt. I’m good thanks.
You are actively hurting people by sabotaging liberal systems that do work in favor of radical change towards a system that has absolutely literally been tried at scale. It fails and then becomes oppressive against minorities and inefficient due to not allowing dissent.
I’m perfectly happy in a liberal mixed system where capital is owned privately and profits are shared amongst those who buy in. If you want to start an organization that shares value equally, start a co-op. Unlike anarchist systems, liberal ones allow for you to do that. Just don’t expect to use the power of the state to force it on everyone else.
I am sure that is why the Ukrainians starved during the Holodomor and the Russians did not. The tyranny of the majority still exists. It becomes far worse in a less efficient system with no economic outs for the state oppressed.
Communism is the exact opposite of egalitarianism. It puts more power into the hands of those who control the government/decision making. There is nothing inherently less prejudiced about said government than any other but it does provide a documented incentive to oppress the opposition and the ultimate economic means to do so.
Theoretically, a liberal economic order with the only central government mandate being protections for equality and justice is the only truly egalitarian solution that is not fascism.
What happens when the governing core says no? For this system to work, you need an almost perfect level of education and reprogramming. That same level of education and reprogramming would also theoretically solve all problems in the current system and power structure. You have the same power to help people now as you magically would under your proposed system. You just refuse to play by the same rules because you think they are rigged against you when they aren’t. You just refuse to play.
The examples I mentioned were minorities within their current societies. Socialism didn’t prevent Stalin from banning abortion in 1939. Socialism is not inherently better for women’s rights. It does provide more state power which means changes, good and bad can be more thoroughly implemented. This sometimes results in more thoroughly implemented social policy but often results in more effective genocide or no recourse for the oppressed at all.
Anarchism does absolutely nothing to oppose oppressive systems of power but hopes and dreams. Good luck changing people’s minds when communications are restricted in non-liberal societies. Your core tenants are that you reject the power structures required to defend against them. The only difference between you and the original communist revolutions is that you reject the soviets that allowed them to organize a revolution and consolidate power.
This is not the first time I have been sent that source. Your source only proves that it can work in addition to existing power structures or at a smaller scale. If you cannot convince the majority to shift, a couple people are not going to lead a general strike which is commonly held to be a requirement for societal change towards anarchism. You are not arguing the actual ideology of anarchism.
There’s so much that anarchism fails at but ultimately its inability to sustain itself as an ideology means that it will always fail, regardless of if it could work at scale(It cannot) Thus, you are only hurting people with attempts at radical change because the only societies that allow it are liberal ones. What naturally results is opposition in the forms of fascism or a shift to actual communism and oppression. All this while less liberal societies take advantage of free peoples. It is either an unethical ideology or you are proposing it with malicious intent.
Yep, by the definitions of food security capitalist countries have always done better than communist ones. In the USSR, only Ukraine, Belorussia, and Kazakhstan produced a surplus. Famines resulted when food was forcibly taken from them to feed the rest. By the above definition, the 70% of the USSR was food insecure.
China didn’t look much better and the less centralized they were, the worse it got. (before folks come out of the woodwork to claim that it wasn’t true socialism or anarchism) All non capitalist systems we have ever seen including feudalism and socialism have required violence to force production. That’s just slavery with extra steps.
Correct, once they shifted from smaller communes where people were free to do what they wanted and shifted to directed labor, they solved their productivity problem. Slaves do make for greater production.
An improvement on capitalism because surplus production was enjoyed by the political elites instead of the capital owners with no chance to gain it without gaining the favor of the party. This cronyism still survived in the largely centralized Russian and Chinese corporate systems to this day. The initial years were attempts to achieve that idealized form of decentralized communism which is why it resulted in famine. The centralization under a single party made it fascism without the corporations, aka totalitarianism. The primary burdens of a centrally dictated economic system is not suffered by the majority but minority regions. This is why Russians look back fondly on communism and every border partner in the union cannot get away from them fast enough. They were able to control not only the means of production, but the goods and surplus produced for their benefit. A system where the means of production are privately owned has a natural resistance to that.
Totalitarian slavery of the minority is what ultimately results from even a democratic socialist system. Any sufficiently decentralized system is eventually forced to centralize and locals lose their power to determine what they produce and where it goes. True socialism and communism at scale has been tried and it fails to take care of its people at the smaller level.
Centralization results in centralized autocracy, militarism, forced suppression of opposition, and the subordination of individual interests to that of the state every time. Yes, it’s literally the definition of fascism and it’s a powerful thing. Terrible, but powerful.
I’m happy in a liberal society that accounts for capitalist externalities with social programs. I’m quite happy owning my tiny portion of the means of production as things rapidly become more decentralized and artisanal these past few decades. Most people are okay leaving a little on the table for people that make things possible instead of everything on the table to be wasted by the state or for corrupt bureaucrats. We have enough of an issue with them in their limited capacity now. You won’t make them better by giving them more power.
I found it to be exactly the opposite. Everyone in DC is doing interesting things. There is a lot of passion and hard work as well. They mostly shy away from direct politics in a town that is incredibly political by its very nature. I’ve been helped on the street more by average people than I ever was around Atlanta, New Orleans, or the spaces between.
Literally none of the rest is true and I challenge you to prove it. We are not in a recession. Rent grifting as a perceived problem causing the above effects regardless of being able to put any numbers towards it one way or another.
That has literally nothing to do with what the above poster claimed so you can cool your jets and consider that your landlord was only able to do that because they have a scarce resource, made more scarce by the above policies. I will not fuck right off while you folks make the situation literally worse. You can fuck off and let educated folks solve problems with real economic policies.
I’m referring to policies. You apparently didn’t. I’m curious as to how you think your situation has any impact on the overall housing supply and accessibility to new renters? I’m not seeing the link but maybe I and every other housing policy expert are the dumb ones here.
And rent control was literally not mentioned anywhere in this thread so it is your turn to fuck right off.
Rent control also hurts supply which hurts everyone trying to get housing except the lucky few who get in. It also locks in a steady rate of rent increase regardless of the market.
Building more housing gives people options which decreases landlord power.
You obviously don’t understand the basics of the housing market and let your personal opinions and anecdotes cloud your perspectives on effective housing policies for everyone.
I would say that ignorance is bliss for you but it’s obvious that yours has also caused you hardship.
Also, I am not a landlord so you can take your prejudice and apply your initial uncalled for insult of fucking right off.
Supply and demand applies to all privately owned markets regardless of what you think of a market system. You cannot escape it on an island and it is actually exacerbated the smaller the market.
Blocking me doesn’t make your opinion any more fact; it just closes you off in your ignorance.
The suffering is inherent, and intentional to RULE system (lemmy.tf)
The Democracy of the founding fathers was Greek Democracy, predicated upon a slave society, and restricted to only the elite. This is the society we live in today, even with our reforms towards direct representation. The system is inherently biased towards the election of elites and against the representation of the masses....
Defederation from Lemmygrad.ml
Hello World,...
Your big brain conservtive/capitalist takes will be laughed at (lemmy.world)
deleted_by_author
Capitalism is when 1 in 10 people don't eat (lemmygrad.ml)
cross-posted from: lemmygrad.ml/post/1962901...
Why is a dish that originated in the rich arostocracy now being extolled on lemmy in memes and posts?
Somebody explain please. I for one never had that stuff growing up. Strogan f**ck off
Hell freezes over, MS Paint adds support for layers and PNG transparency (arstechnica.com)
Automated background removal was also added recently.
What are the cultural regions of USA?
How did they form? What are their specific traits? Stereotypes (even untrue, if marked as such)?...
Landlords Throw Party to Celebrate Being Able to Evict People Again (www.vice.com)
The Berkeley Property Owners Association’s fall mixer is called “Celebrating the End of the Eviction Moratorium.”...