NoneOfUrBusiness

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NoneOfUrBusiness,

Bruuuh Shaoki being 少奇 is brilliant. That aside don't, it ain't worth it.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

The Gaza Health Ministry's numbers are trusted by the whole world, including organizations like UNICEF.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

Hamas isn't exaggerating, because the Gaza Health Ministry isn't Hamas except by virtue of Hamas being the government of Gaza. The whole world trusts and uses the GHM's numbers, because they're accurate. Also the real number is more than 19000, because there are people still buried under rubble or otherwise missing.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

Their only mistake here was shooting the guy who spoke Hebrew. Everything else is just Tuesday for the IDF.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

TBF there's a reason for the devaluation. In countries like Argentina the government sets the price of the dollar, but that doesn't affect the real price, so in the end the government pays the difference. In the case of Argentina the government basically made the dollar half its real value, so say for every 100 dollars an Argentinian bought the government needed to pay 50.

It's a bad situation all around and there are no good solutions, but just leaving it be is unsustainable.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

Yeah. That's the challenge in situations like these: How do you get to a free-floating currency without the people starving to death.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

I mean maybe not data but it's telling that almost every successful movement goes beyond the "quietly protest on the side of the road" step.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

Just gonna say: Reagan stopped the bombing of Beirut with a phone call.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

After the what? We're talking about Israel's invasion of Lebanon in 1982 here.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

He didn't stop the conflict as a whole, but he stopped the bombing of west Beirut itself.

That bombing was followed by a protest to the Israeli government by President Ronald Reagan. Within 20 minutes of a phone call between Reagan and Begin, in which the former said the bombings were going too far and needed to stop, Begin ordered the bombings stopped.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

These news to some degree justify the attack the Israeli doing.

How so? It explains the role of the tunnels in Gazans' lives, which I think counters the popular idea that they're a malicious tool for terrorism.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

Not really. Look at their site; they have a list of major victories. They need more people before they can do something decisive, but they've been isolating Israel economically over the years.

New Yorkers march on Wall St. to demand an end to US funding of Israel : Peoples Dispatch (peoplesdispatch.org)

People in New York City once again took to the streets to demand a permanent ceasefire in Israel’s war on Gaza and an end US aid to Israel. Protesters marched from Foley Square to NYC City Hall, Wall Street, and Washington Square Park to raise their demands. The protest took place as the United Nations Security Council was...

NoneOfUrBusiness,

About the Hamas part: AFAIK October 7th was mainly a military attack against legitimate military targets with military goals, with the (very much undeniable, don't get me wrong) atrocities committed being individual action that hasn't been proven to come from the top, If I'm not wrong about that understanding I don't see how Hamas and Israel can be put in the same position here.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

Yes. Unless you have hard numbers or evidence Hamas leadership intended to cause civilian casualties we go with innocent until proven guilty. I mean hell why would the leadership want innocents killed? That's just bad press, and they're more useful as hostages.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

You can not deny that, if Hamas actually had a problem with it, then they should surrender everyone who killed innocents.

Yeah they probably don't have a problem with it, that's true enough and can't be defended. But they didn't go "we should go there and kill civilians", is what I mean. Some people have that impression about the attack and that's playing right into Israel's hands. Unfortunately punishing soldiers who commit warcrimes is a standard neither side is trying to reach.

Also, from what we know the music festival wasn't a one-sided Hamas massacre; there was combat with the IDF and many of the people who died died in the crossfire. Not saying there weren't people who killed innocents (particularly the guy who threw that one grenade should be hanged), but the image that Hamas went in guns blazing and killed a bunch of people is at this point in time plain Israeli propaganda that spread before the details were known.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

Evidence like what?

NoneOfUrBusiness,

I was talking about the current attack. And the music festival is still strictly in fog of war territory. There are people Hamas soldiers killed, that's undeniable, but there are also people who were killed by reckless IDF fire and people who simply died in the crossfire.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

I meant civilians people who were intentionally killed by Hamas (there's a significant number people who died in the crossfire or to reckless IDF fire), but yeah this too.

Also the death toll topped 18k.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

That's true, but honestly anybody is better than Netanyahu. This guy is the reason the conflict didn't end in the 90s.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

The UN has already condemned Israel for committing war crimes in Gaza.

NoneOfUrBusiness, (edited )

If this is how you really think, you need to study the conflict more. There's plenty of evidence of Israel intentionally targeting civilians in this "war" (genocide is a more appropriate term) alone. And don't get me started how you condemned October 7th as a terrorist attack even though it's perfectly legal to take a military action against a foreign occupier.

And about the Gaza disengagement: The rocket attacks started after the blockade, which BTW started in 2005, not 2007.

You need to take a look at the conflict again, and examine your biases if you actually care about the truth.

Edit: What it feels like reading this is that you're creating nuance where none exists. Not saying there's no nuance in the conflict, but it's generally pretty clear-cut with a clear cause and effect chain dating back to the Nakba, or if we take it further to the Balfour declaration.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

Because Israel is committing genocide, Apartheid and a whole new, Israel-brand crime against humanity. Usually you don't need to pass this many resolutions against a single problem. Israel's brutal occupation and genocide of Palestine has the whole world's eyes, so they get more international attention. Not to mention it's been going on for 74 years. If you start counting from 1945 when the UN was made, that's the world's longest-lasting series of crimes against humanity and it's not close.

Also even if you disregard the UN, many reputable human rights organizations have condemned Israel for war crimes and crimes against humanity for ages. If you think all those are biased against poor old Israel, then you should check your biases.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

Where? Why would they do this if they were intentionally targeting civilians?

So there are many examples, but stuff like this has happened a lot in the past 2 months.

Not the numbers, not the intent, not the way Israel conducts itself.

Genocide isn't just killing everyone. The Armenian genocide was a genocide, even though it was "just" forced relocation. And we have this and this, among more, as proof of intent.

That is a truly despicable thing to say. Hamas terrorists went from house to house, murdering, torturing, raping and abducting predominately civilians.

So, you're now taking IDF propaganda at face value. We're not sure of everything that happened on October 7th, but we do know that from 1200 people who died 600-500 were civilians. And those include people who were actually killed by the IDF, intentionally or otherwise (and yes, some were killed intentionally), and those who were killed in the crossfire. Did some Hamas soldiers commit atrocities in October 7th? Yes. Was October 7th one big terrorist attack? Absolutely not. It was a military attack with clear military goals.

i.imgur.com/6ZaCNWi.png

I meant rocket attacks as a large-scale Hamas policy. I thought that was obvious, but maybe it wasn't. Rocket attacks as a whole started with the second intifada, went down with the disengagement (which had marked the end of the second Intifada), went up again because of the blockade that happened immediately after and from there it just follows the general trends of the Gaza side of the conflict. I'm, not sure what you wanna prove here. I said the blockade happened immediately after the disengagement, and you didn't offer any evidence stating otherwise.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

That is an outrageous claim that requires hard evidence. So far, the only ones I’ve seen spread it are Hamas. Where on Earth did you pick it up?

Yeah it's a thing. You can find it if you look it up, but there.

To elaborate on the "intentionally" thing, after the attack itself Hamas soldiers holed up in Israeli homes with the hostages, thinking they'd be able to retreat because of course Israel wouldn't bomb them. Then the IDF bombed Hamas along with the hostages. You'll find this in the article, but just to sum up.

I'm honestly surprised you haven't heard of this; I thought it would be common knowledge on this site by now.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

Most recently, Nir Hasson returned to Be’eri and interviewed a local resident named Tuval, who was lucky to be away from the kibbutz at the time of the attack but whose partner was killed. In Hasson’s October 20 Haaretz article, he reports:

“His voice trembles when his partner, who was besieged in her home shelter at the time, comes to mind. According to him, only on Monday night and only after the commanders in the field made difficult decisions — including shelling houses with all their occupants inside in order to eliminate the terrorists along with the hostages — did the IDF complete the takeover of the kibbutz. The price was terrible: at least 112 Be’eri people were killed. Others were kidnapped. Yesterday, 11 days after the massacre, the bodies of a mother and her son were discovered in one of the destroyed houses. It is believed that more bodies are still lying in the rubble.”

I guess you can verify from the Haaretz article whether this is correct or not.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

They bombed Hamas soldiers who were holing up in hostages' homes. Intentionally.

According to him, only on Monday night and only after the commanders in the field made difficult decisions — including shelling houses with all their occupants inside in order to eliminate the terrorists along with the hostages — did the IDF complete the takeover of the kibbutz.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

This is exactly what I said at first. The hostages were in their homes when they were bombed, if that part wasn't clear.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

Honestly the fact that this is even a controversial issue is fucking dumb. Setting aside the whole problem of not letting people wear whatever they want, Japan can get fucking cold.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

Biden is a bigger supporter of this war than like half of Israel.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

So, the idea that peace is unattainable because both sides don't want it is basically Israeli propaganda. That hasn't been true since at least 1993. Even Hamas has accepted permanent ceasefires (specifically one in 2008 and another in 2012) before, which stipulated that Israel would lift the blockade. Well that didn't happen, and Gaza kept getting airstriked at the same frequency (even though due to Hamas's efforts rocket attacks went down to next to nothing), so after a long time (over a year in the 2012 case) hostilities resumed from the Hamas side. I'm saying from the Hamas side because in both cases after signing ceasefires Israel just... Didn't cease firing, let alone lift the blockade.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

AFAIK it got a bit less extreme in 2017 (still calling for the destruction of Israel, but that's calling for a one-state solution, not the genocide of Israel).

NoneOfUrBusiness,

So this interpretation is naive in several aspects:

1-The only time Israel seriously took part in peace negotiations was in the Oslo accords (everything that came after, including Camp David 2000, was farces), and the PM was assassinated for it. It's Israeli fundamentalists who ruined it for everyone.

2-Israel actively funded Hamas, and keeps supporting them (they also knowingly created the current status quo) because they don't want Palestinians to have a representative who can negotiate for peace and a Palestinian state. The current division of Palestinian between Palestinian Israelis, East Jerusalemites, West Bankers and Gazans is an intentional part of Israel's Apartheid (or brutal occupation, take your pick) system, and they're not about to let it go away.

3-The West Bank, where Hamas has barely any presence, is currently being genocided (or ethnically cleansed, again take your pick). If the West Bank can't have peace, then everything about the continuance of the conflict being Hamas's fault is nonsense, also known as Israeli propaganda.

Also BTW, the blockade of Gaza started in 2005. That's before Hamas was elected.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

Israel's role model is the US in the 1800s.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

I mean Gaza is a one big extermination camp.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

This is how ceasefires (or in this case operational pauses) with Israel look like. Or, to rephrase, this is why ceasefires with Israel don't hold for long.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

What? Their agreement states they won't bomb Gaza for five days.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

Given that Israel can't do anything without at least tacit American support (given in the form of weapons and aid), pressure on the US government accomplishes a lot.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

So because this is a common misunderstanding, Hamas isn't trying to genocide Israel (that's just impossible). Hamas is fighting the Israel occupation, and accepted Israeli ceasefires multiple times (which Israel then proceeded to not follow). This is important because the idea that both sides don't want peace plays right into the hands of Israel, who wants to maintain the status quo until they can fully ethnically cleanse Palestine (or at least the West Bank).

NoneOfUrBusiness,

The fact that Hamas continues to hold hostages makes me question this point.

How so? Since Israel never takes peaceful discussion seriously, negotiating for the release of hostages is one of the only ways Hamas can get any concessions out of Israel. Compare to the PNA which just can't get any concessions out of Israel. Believing that the Israeli attack on Gaza is meant to free the hostages is playing right into Israel's hands; if it was they'd have negotiated for a ceasefire and ended the whole thing within a week.

An official, Ghazi Hammad told a Lebanese news channel that they would repeat attacks similar to the al-Aqsa Flood until Isreal is finished. Unless it’s a major translation error in which case I’d like a correct version for.

It is a sort of vague statement even in Arabic, but Israel being finished (the Arabic word is literally "removed") doesn't necessarily mean genocide of Israelis. While he's mostly unrelated to Hamas, Yasser Arafat used the same rhetoric, with the clarification that he meant Israel as a state not Israelis, in the 90s so it's not unprecedented.

Anyway that aside, Hamas's vague stated motivations aside, their actions aren't the actions of someone who wants to remain an aggressor. I've mentioned this before, but they've participated in ceasefires in good faith, so they've got that going for them. While it doesn't excuse the leadership if they're actually talking about genocide (I don't believe so because of their updated 2017 charter, but that aside), it does mean the idea that Hamas rejects peace as much as Israel does is wrong. Hamas hasn't rejected peace offers from Israel since at least 2005 (I'm not sure of their positions before 2005, but I doubt any offers were directed at Hamas). See also: the 2013 attempt at a united government.

If Israel came tomorrow and said they'd represent lift the blockade if Hamas stopped attacking it it'd happen within the same week. I'm repeating myself, but this isn't my guess; this has happened twice before.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

The rhetoric, however vague or a minority a view it may be, is still difficult to ignore.

Yeah that makes sense.. I'm mostly saying this because there's a view that even if Israel wanted they can't get it because of Hamas, or worse, that Israel wants peace but can't get it because of Hamas.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

While plain direct translation might be automated (though not necessarily because some things just don't translate), localization is a whole different deal. Can't speak much for Cantonese because I can't speak it, but as an Arabic speaker I can't see an AI being able to translate from Arabic to English as well as a human can anytime soon.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

A "democracy" flashbacks to hundreds of people being arrested for criticizing Israel after Oct 7.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

Bruh at least ask for a source before claiming it's made up.

https://mondoweiss.net/2023/11/haifa-university-students-face-day-in-israeli-court-over-social-media-posts/

You're defending the democracy of a country where the word "facebook detainee" can be accurately used. Think about that.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

I was never under the illusion that Israel was an equal democratic society, but I guess they've finally started going after their own.

Israeli army executes an elderly Palestinian after using him in propaganda campaign about its ‘safe corridor’ in Gaza (euromedmonitor.org)

Geneva – The Israeli army’s execution of an elderly Palestinian after using him in a propaganda campaign promoting its “safe corridor” in Gaza was strongly condemned in a statement released by Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor today....

NoneOfUrBusiness,

Welcome to Palestine.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

I mean they're biased; that's normal. The thing is: Does that bias get in the way of the factuality of their reporting? Given that they have a pretty long track record, there needs to be a source that proves they're unreliable.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

This is a decently reputable organization whose source is apparently the man's granddaughter.

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