You mean during this war or before? If during, then yeah probably (although Hamas won’t release the numbers of terrorists/civilians killed) But again, that’s just war, and war is horrible. We can all agree on that.
And about 2023 being the deadliest one - it’s so much more nuanced than this - it’s indeed the Israeli government’s fault that things escalated since it’s one of the most right-wing governments Israel has ever seen - and their lack of competence should and is blamed for the escalation and for allowing such a major attack to happen. Israel’s government has a lot to answer after this war, to a lot of people - especially to Israelis.
That is to say, the escalation in violence was in the west bank, not in Gaza. Gaza was a relatively quiet area for months up until the attack (except for disturbenceses on the fence which Israel stupidly disregarded)
obviously when people say cease fire they mean a real one
Then by that standard there have been 0 cease fires in Gaza since Hamas took over. Rockets are fired from Gaza at least once a year - is that peace in your eyes? Calling for it now after all those years is just ridiculous. Maybe a pause for humanitarian aid, but ceasefire? Basically giving Gaza back to Hamas? What sane Israeli would live in one of the slaughtered Kibutz while Hamas is still in power?
A failure. That doesn’t justify genocide of people
War != Genocide. They both have massive civilian deaths - but it’s an important distinction. The 7/10 attack does indeed justify entering a war - where sadly lots of civilians are killed. Poor Gazans have both Israel and Hamas to blame for allowing this war to happen.
On 6/10 there was a cease fire - that didn’t prevent Israelis from being slaughtered. Hamas showed no* indication of stopping their massacares. In fact, they did the opposite - they only talk about how glad they are with the massacare and how they intend to do that again.
Israel is perfectly capable of defending itself without comitting genocide
Then what was the 7/10 attack? Even with oppressing the region they can’t defend against such terror acts without their air force.
Dude when have I equated all Palestinians to Hamas exactly?? I said that war is horrible and that innocents die in it, and that’s how it always has been. That doesn’t equate to me saying all Palestinians are Hamas. Heck, I think Palestinians are the biggest victims of Hamas, being the main reason for thousands of deaths on innocent Palestinians.
And taking the side of no civilian casualty is just a very privileged position you can say only from thousands of kms away - when your life is threatened, some civilian casualty is justified under war. That’s what I meant when I said war is horrible, and that’s why everyone no matter who you are should try and prevent it always. But saying a side who has pretty rightfully opened a war, and saying they should stop because you’re against all civilian lives lost, is just not helpful and not gonna do anything, since it really is just privileged, having not experienced any part of the conflict yourself. Saying “from my point of view it’s bad so don’t do it” while not looking at it from the point of view of the other party is really just not helpful in understanding or doing anything.
And about the Apartheid, my bad, I talked about Gaza, not the West bank, where the Israelis are actually entering the region and oppressing Palestinians. I still don’t compare it to south africa where it was oppression of your own citizens, but it’s still really horrible and the right wing government of Israel needs to fall. For that I’ll protest all day.
But again, I really see the people of Gaza as prisoners not of Israel, but Hamas. Israel willingly just fell back from the region in 2005, and from then onwards Palestinian civilians were truly doomed by Hamas (Israel literally physically just walked away) to a constant state of war.
You keep repeating over and over hoping for your point to be true, while it’s just not. Keep crying and keep turning a blind eye to the fact that there are 2 sides here who both have valid goals and disregard one of them just because they’re bigger and pretty much achieved their goal is bullshit or straight up racism.
History is and forever was on the side of the bigger powers, so no. Looks like history would not be on the side of terrorists.
Classifying Israel as Apartheid is valid if and only if Israel and Palestinians in the west bank define themselves as Israelis and treat themselves as part of the Israeli national. Surprise surprise - they don’t. Neither. Israel classifies Palestinians as basically foreigners, hence no citizen right. And Palestinians don’t try to push against it because all they want is a country of their own. Now, providing a Palestinian state is a whole subject in itself, but basically it’s hard. And not enough foreign power is used to make it happen - that’s the real disservice done to the Palestinians. They never ever talked about Israel accepting them to Israeli society, and no one expects that of them. They’re literal foreigners to Israel, with work permits. Of course they won’t have a government vote.
Another point was the jewish nature of Israel and how it discriminates - and that’s just true. There’s indeed a case to be made of Israel needing to be some part jewish, but Israel politics and laws are fucked up, especially regarding settlements. Let’s hope they get their shit together and have a working government who actually does good.
And lastly, Gazans moving south. Does anybody in this world remember what war’s like? Does anybody remember how many German civilian homes were bombed by the brits in WW2? Does anyone remember the civilian casualties Germany suffered?
War is war. And war is horrible. But expecting a country who just had its worst attack on its land ever to not fight the ones responsible, is extremely privileged by the world. Any state encountering such a big threat on civilian lives would do everything to destroy that threat. And that’s what they’re doing. The war won’t end when all Gazans are dead - it’ll end when Hamas has 0 armed terrorists, and 0 threatening capabilities. And that’s a goal no one can criticize Israel for pursuing. (Obviously you can criticize their methods - but relative to all recent conflicts - they really are avoiding civilian lives as much as possible considering their enemy.)
I mean there’s a whole wikipedia page on the camps china built for them…
My point is that there are so many more wrongdoings and innocent people being prosecuted way more harshly than Palestinians in the world, and the world is only focusing on Palestinians since it’s the frontline of the west vs iranian arab society. Those magnitudes of protests weren’t around when china put muslims in camps or killed thousands of protestors.
This whole thing is an assault on western ideology. hamas is Iran2.0 and would massacre those same left-wing europeans or Americans who protest for them, in the name of Islam.
Okay buddy, sure. Really easy to talk from a peaceful state without constant threats pointed at you. How about providing actual real solutions to conflicts instead of waiting around, doing nothing then yelling when a war breaks out because of what everyone ignored.
The rest of the world did nothing to provide peace in the region - so those same foreigners to the conflicts shouldn’t point a finger and be surprised when war happens. Either leave the region alone (just like most disputes happening in Africa for example) or actually do something when it’s not wartime. Trying to do something when everything is broken to the point of no return is nothing but virtue signaling.
Those protest should’ve happened when Hamas won elections. Those protests should’ve happened when right wing Israeli government came to power. Those protests should’ve happened when no one did anything about Hamas arming themselves, preparing for war.
Protesting now is doing nothing. Both sides are so fed up with the other that no peaceful resolution, no ceasefire could happen. And screaming about it now is not gonna change that.
It’s not just whataboutism, I talked about how Israel did literally everything they could considering they’re at war. It’s like ya’ll forgot how wars worked.
Just imagine the allied forces telling germans “hey yo things are about to get ugly here please leave to this area where we’ll bomb way less”. There’s no other country who treats war with such careful hands, and Israel is still getting shit over it.
War is evil. Israel’s wars are the least evil in the world.
Dude what? I guess ya’ll are really just supporting anything which is against the west, no matter how hypocritical it is. Next thing I’ll hear on Lemmy how Ukraine had it coming from Russia.
And what lack of knowledge about this conflict do I have? Please enlighten me. Did Israelis not tell every possible Gazan “hey, leave this area, your terrorist leaders are hiding here and we don’t like killing civilians”?
It’s like ya’ll leave in a fantasy world where no wrong could ever be done towards a side in a conflict which is weaker. It’s like you forgot how war actually works.
Not doing any of this stuff would’ve meant a Palestinian state in Gaza led by Hamas.
Such a state would’ve killed many more jews.
Is it really that hard to see such obvious facts? What action has Palestinian ever done to warrant faith from the Israeli side that they wouldn’t get massacres if Palestinians had a state.
It’s as simple as that. Make Israelis not feel threatened, make a state. Do make Israelis feel threatened, get oppression.
And no other country in the world would do differently when feeling threatened. Some would do actual genocide and have 2 million dead.