Reminder, Lemmy Kilmister collected nazi memorabilia. It might not be as deep as you think. Half the time metal with neo nazi themes just sounds like a bunch of dinosaures yelling.
There’s a difference between Motorhead, the Sex Pistols, and someone like Slayer who all used Nazi imagery to provoke in a problematic way and bands that claim to be part of the National Socialist Black Metal scene. I mean… I can’t understand the lyrics on an Absurd record without the lyric sheet, but the giant blank sun in their artwork is a dead giveaway
Imagine, not wanting to normalize Doxxing is tantamount to being a Nazi…
Y’all, at this point if Nazi’s start doxxing everyone else I’m just going to sit back with popcorn. This isn’t about defending anyone its about preventing an all-out dox war, which I’m VERY much not in the mood for.
But you know, that makes us Nazi simps now apparently?
According to the article, activists are already using the information to further their research. So, it’s not out of the question that innocent people’s information was released after buying material from this site for research. Doxxing is also not legal in every jurisdiction, which can lead to legal repercussions for the doxxer and the platform that hosts the information. It also encourages retaliation, which potentially puts the community at risk.
A report is just that, a report. I sent a heads up that this post contained doxxed information. If the mod team is not concerned by it, it’s obviously within your power to ignore my report. If you needed more information, it would have been easy to send a PM rather than trying to make some kind of statement by asking publicly.
I mean, lots of fascists seem to like RATM because they never thought about the lyrics. I don’t know if that phenomenon goes both ways, but I’d imagine there’s probably at least one Neo-Nazi song out there with a slappin bass line. It probably mostly sounds like bad metal or generic 90s grunge if I had to guess, though.
I think the crux of the issue is that these people bought and supported the nazi bands by buying products on the website which is clearly a nazi website with clear nazi symbolism being displayed.
I wouldn’t blame a rando not knowing they’re a nazi band but if that rando actively buys from a site that has nazi symbolism and isn’t hiding what it is then I’m a lil sus you know. At least I wouldn’t support that sort of stuff once I became aware of it.
See Unicorn Riot’s torrent of internal data stolen from Patriot Front, fascists in the US. Hey, I’m sharing that download on a perpetual basis. I have a gig link uploading, so grab that fucking data.
There are legitimately people here arguing that just because you don’t understand the language, you probably aren’t a fascist for liking clearly fascist music that you have to work hard to find, especially if you don’t natively speak the language.
Maybe they just vibe with hate and the fascist imagery is a comforting reminder of their favorite message boards? Just because the only music you listen too is made for Nazis doesn’t make you a Nazi. You being a Nazi means you enjoy Nazi music. Not exactly causation but nearly a one to one correlation. I don’t know what I meant by this. I started with a joke and now I’m just arguing logic semantics. This is a mess. I’m sorry, hitting post anyway though.
Hahaha, I gotchu. On an individual basis, it’s totally possible that a Japanese person may genuinely stumble upon it and like it purely for the tunes. At an aggregate, it becomes increasingly obvious that there are tendencies that lead people out of traditionally popular Japanese music and into obscure northern European Nazi music.
Come back after you type “Finnish metal” into youtube search bar, find a pretty good melodic powermetal song. It’s stuck in your head for days, so you download an entire album. You start to hum along as you listen, but it’s not enough. You find the lyrics in a language you never have spoken before, so you learn it phonetically. You share your discovery with friends and family. It’s fun AND educational! But that’s not enough, you often wonder what it all means, so one day as you listen, you open a new tab, type in “Terasbetoni - Orjatar, translated lyrics” to find…
ThisSlave woman Hard was the work in the midst of woods, Wearing the axe and play on the shoulders, heart burning with desire, Yearning will make you go through the snow, Knowledge of what shall become keeps you strong! Slave woman! Obey my quest, Know your place! Slave woman! Work my will, And you shall be rewarded! Divinely rewarded! There shall be battles in the fields of death. On stake is the life in disastrous times! Man with an ardor shall get what he deserves, So please and serve, or he shall punish you! Slave woman! Obey my quest, Know your place! Slave woman! Work my will, And you shall be rewarded! Divinely rewarded! Slave woman! Come to me, And work your magic! Slave woman! Heed my words, For that is your law! Slave woman! Obey my quest, Know your place! Slave woman! Work my will, And you shall be rewarded! Divinely rewarded!
Individually? Possible, totally. In aggregate? It’s not a secret that Japan has an uncomfortably large fascist subculture. Putting 2 and 2 together as an aggregate makes sense.
Of course, I wouldn’t go up and assume a random Japanese person listening to fascist northern European metal is necessarily a fascist, but if they also had the rising sun flag of Imperial Japan on their car, or hanging in their room? Absolutely.
Fuck nazis, but I have a friend who got into a lot of Russian techno artists because he watched livestreams of Russian women on OnlyFans playing that music during shows. He didn’t find nazi music (to my knowledge), but he did have to invent a cover story for his Ukrainian wife for how he discovered the artists.
However, if you can recognize the iconography in the bands’ merch and still listen, I don’t care how lit the music sounds, fuck you for listening.
This was sort of my reaction after seeing this again while looking for something new on Lemmy:
Just because you listen to rap about drugs and murder doesn’t mean you actually do drugs and murder. Nor does it necessarily mean the artist does, it could be their persona.
But I also know nothing of the band or their music, so idk whether anyone that listened to them would automatically be a hardcore Neo-Nazi or just an eccentric metalhead. Just like I don’t know rap, so I myself can’t pass judgement and it just feels weird to see others do so, I guess I can assume they are more informed than myself.
I was listening to a podcast that suggested the main reason the Nazis wanted to kill Jews is because they felt that the rise of Christianity, originating among the Jews, was what weakened the Roman Empire and caused it to crumble.
For their own empire, modeled along Roman lines, they didn’t want the same thing to happen.
ehh… I see a lot of ‘the nazis were pagan not christian’ apologism; their belt buckles say otherwise. the vast majorities were church going christians who had wildly varying records on which sects participated in persecution but overall none stepped up to stop the state’s genocide, so like catholics, they can protest but I’m not convinced.
Hitler hated Christianity for its worship of meekness, weakness, a dead man, etc, but used it very well politically. Nazi leadership ranged from full on Christians to pagan weirdos. Jews were associated with Bolshevism, and their hard antibolshevim especially appealed to people who had emigrated to the Weimar Republic during the Russian revolution. Communism and unions were the first targets and how they wedged themselves in to power in the first place. Hitlers first major political victory was the concordat with the Roman Catholic church, promising freedom of religion. In the late 30s Catholic pulpits were ordered to recite a condemnation of Hitler for betraying the concordat. The Nazis implemented a Christian denomination and sent pastors and priests who didn’t comply (many did of course) to the camps. One of these was the famous poet who wrote the “first they came” poem, at first a Hitler supporter who recanted when it was too late, like many of them.
They had all kinds of weird views about Aryans, a very fluid and subjective category in practice, and the history of Aryans. There were archeologists tasked with digging up the magnificent history of the Aryan race etc. Some people like Japanese were honorary Aryans etc. Down to weird specific traits of people based on the false premise of race being a real thing.
In many ways yes. Japan has its own brand of racial superiority which is why I just found it a bit weird they're going for nazi shit. It could also just be that they heard and liked a song, but I kinda doubt that this is the case.
Japan is conservative in the sense that anyone that isn’t Japanese can go get fucked. How many Japanese neo-nazis are also multilingual to understand the lyrics? This seems less like nazis in Japan and just people who found music they didn’t hate.
Japan literally has rising fascist movements that want to bring back Imperial Japan, I think it’s fair to say that they know what they’re listening to.
I understand that Japan’s youth displays a lot of Hitler and Nazi stuff. Not that they’re Nazis or haters, they just think it’s funny or something? Kinda like clueless American kids sporting Che Guevera shirts and posters?
Not really, it’s also seen as a weird thing done by loners to them. One of the most famous animes in recent times, Overlord, features a WW2-based german character with manerisms and speech reminiscent of a SS officer. Every time they’re on screen, the main character nearly dies of embarassment.
There’s actually a simple explanation for that. Much like the “conservative/christian entertainment” industry the alt-tech movement is primarily composed of failures and hacks who couldn’t cut it in the mainstream field.
A smart racist would have to be stupid in such a specific kind of way that it would be like a zyzygy of all the stars in the sky aligning at the same time.
No. There’s no plausible deniability here. These bands’ whole gimmick is that they’re Nazis. It’s not some catchy tune you randomly heard on the radio. There is nothing subtle about it. It’s racist songs with racist lyrics. You would have to seek it out to listen to this garbage.
In a country of 124m people that has every subculture you could imagine, I can absolutely guarantee you that there are Japanese nazis. (They were a part of the axis after all.)
Being smart is not a pre-requisite to being a nazi. It’s actually a hindrance.
Also, can we appreciate how desperate and nonsensical that entire argument was?
Okay, lots of them are Japanese. So… what about the ones that aren’t? Why isn’t that person concerned about the one who absolutely understand what it means?
And secondly… it’s still a huge red flag that Japanese customers were going so far out of their way to buy extremely obscure music from racist bands from an overtly Nazi music seller. If an American specifically imported music from a Japanese shop only racists know or care about, covered in Axis power imagery, that’d still point towards being a huge racist.
That user is seriously turning themselves in knots to defend people who buy Nazi music from the Nazi store.
This might surprise you, but Japan has very close ties with fascism. Ever seen the Japanese flag with the rays coming from the center red sun? That’s the flag of Imperial Japan, a fascist terror that scarred much of Asia. Japan refuses to denounce their war crimes, and there are an unfortunate number of reactionary fascists who use the flag of Imperial Japan as a symbol they support.
I’m absolutely not saying that every Japanese person is a fascist, not even close. I am, however, saying that I’m fairly confident that these particular Japanese fans are aware of the Nazi ideology of the bands they listen to, and listen precisely because of that.
You are defending the indefensible, would you give the benefit of the doubt to a p*do ring too? They are fucking Nazis, have been open about this for three decades they sell Nazi paraphernalia, they host Nazism bands. You accidentally listening to Celine Dion once doesn’t compare.
People are indeed becoming unhinged with all this misplaced tolerance: fascists need to be dealt with straight away, we have so many examples in history about what happens when you hive them the benefit of the doubt. I can’t believe this site’s been up since the 90s.
I’ve listened to songs with suicidal lyrics, I’m not suicidal
A song with “suicidal lyrics” is not even remotely comparable to the albums this site sells, which is why they don’t need a dedicated pro-suicide website to sell them on.
Would you rush to defend an album put out by ISIS, that pushed the agenda of ISIS, with all profits going to ISIS?
It’s getting exhausting seeing people become increasingly unhinged and justifying it because “well, they’re baddies.”
Then maybe you should explain your exhaustion to the group responsible for their overwhelming majority of mass shootings, who openly celebrate the killing of black and LGBT+ people, rather than someone you’ve decided isn’t appropriately sad that neo-nazis got exposed for doing a thing they did.
I like folk music and industrial music. The overlap of the two seems to also have a disproportionate overlap of … what’s the best way to put it?… fascist-adjacent music. Imagery, themes, etc.
Am I a fascist? No.
Are the artists fascist? I don’t know, Boyd Rice Douglas P/Death In June sure has had some controversies about him, but he’s not been banned from streaming services. But In some ways I don’t care, I don’t have the time to unpick every lyric, image and interview from the artists I listen to, to make a decision on their political views. I just like the music. Open a public playlist and listen.
None of the music I listen to appears to be sold on Midgard. But does that mean they’re not fascist?
Probably no need to worry. I like folk and especially nordic folk music (as in Wardruna, not Bob Dylan), which is very obviously something a neo-nazi would also probably like, if only for the superficial themes at play. I used to feel a bit afraid I might accidentally like and support someone I wouldn’t want to, but I’ve come to learn that these shops like midgard, they don’t have those kinds of “normal” releases usually, since they as a shop are often also banned on distributors’ side, so they couldn’t even get them if they wanted. At least eventually that’d kick in, as people report the shop to the bands or labels.
The music and merch these shops sell are… very obviously neo-nazi. I recommend you take a look at the shop just to get an idea, though obviously a content warning is necessary here.
This is all to say that unless the music you listen to is very obviously racist or neo-nazi or otherwise explicitly problematic, I wouldn’t worry.
Of course I might myself be wrong here, but I’ve tried to keep up and stay up to date as to which bands I like could be or turn out problematic.
None have so far, at least as far as I’m aware.
They’d have to be very explicit. I think you’d know for sure, if that was the case.
I listen to a lot of music like wardruna, I simply love the mysticism and the atmosphere of history, magic and rawness, but all of the ones I listen to are actively and publicly denouncing their music being used or approbiated by neo-nazis or other far-right movements or groups.
I think a lot of people would make a lot of noise, if one of the more popular ones would refuse to publicly denounce that. Or otherwise dodged these questions. Some, like Wardruna, are very actively and explicitly fighting those forces and are in a sense “reclaiming” some of the themes and fascinations that nazis and neo-nazis used to have, especially in norse mythology and history and their themes.
I am no longer anxious about being associated with wrong music. I think it’ll be very obvious if a band or a brand otherwise, takes a dodgy stance or especially very explicitly supports those dangerous ideals.
Which is to say, I wouldn’t worry, unless the lyrics, branding and themes are very explicit in their meaning.
Douglas P of Death in June (who I meant to reference in my original post) sells (sold?) Algiz Rune pins, and stickers of Totenkophs on rainbow backgrounds (but, he’s openly homosexual) as band merch.
Sol Invictus was formed by Tony Wakefield, who got kicked out of Death in June for being too right wing; and then he subsequently went on to create Above the Ruins for the National Front (interestingly, used to be banned but is back on Spotify), (but now regrets it).
Von Thronsthal use a logo very close to the Schwarze Sonne, and self-published under “Fasci-Nation Recordings”.
You don’t need to be a fascist to make excuses for fascists, but it’s bizarre that you read my comment about all the apologists the decided “he just hasn’t heard my brilliant apologise yet”.
You can drop the “it could happen to you” act because it almost certainly won’t. For this site and those albums, “I just didn’t have time to unpick what the lyric ‘until every kike is dead’ meant” isn’t even a remotely plausible excuse.
Fucking nazi’s taking Dead Kennedys satires as straight-faced and messing up the concert scene so they wrote this little song which left very little space for misunderstanding (even for nazi idiots).
I certainly wouldn’t listen to Neo-Nazi music no matter how nice the tunes are, because I personally couldn’t stand supporting literal fucking Nazis and listening to Nazi bullshit.
It’s not like the Nazis are the only ones making music, there are countless good, leftist bands out there. There aren’t slim pickings, there are oceans of good music out there.
Benefit of the doubt is a huge deal. It’s entirely possible to enjoy music and have NO idea of the message, themes, content, etc. source: Pumped Up Kicks.
Edit to add: Iced Earth. Really fun power metal band. Loved a ton of their stuff, and then found out the bands lead was arrested at the jan. 6 riot. That stuff doesn’t really bleed into their music, and I was avoiding them for a while because of it, but at the end of the day, the music is good, and that’s why we listen to music.
Pumped Up Kicks is explicit satire, not an actual call for school shootings.
Let me ask this: what makes more sense, a random, specifically Japanese group of people, enjoys northern European Neo-Nazi music for the tunes? Or, perhaps, the fact that Japan has legitimate fascist movements, and historical ties to fascism without heavily denouncing them like Germany, means fascists are likely to search out more fascist music?
I understand your point, but it’s incredibly hard to just randomly stumble upon fascist music and enjoy it for the vibes. This is a specific level of dedication in a country with higher than normal levels of support for fascism.
If people break the law, we restrict their freedom. Many seem to oppose that idea nowadays, or at least claim to. There’s a certain irony in that. But yes, if an individual breaks the social contract in a manner deemed “against the law”, then certain rights are removed from them.
The paradox of tolerance is about absolute/unlimited tolerance. One can set limits on tolerance and respect the human rights of the intolerant, it's not mutually exclusive.
Btw, the combination of "X people don't deserve human rights" and "those who don't support taking rights away from X are equal to X" is especially atrocious.
The tolerance paradox is bullshit. Source: Daryl Davis, the black dude who converted a ton (like over 80) KKK members by just being a tolerant human to them.
You have to tolerate the person, not the message. You can say “you’re a valid human being” and “the stuff that comes out of your mouth is actually terrible” at the same time. Doing anything else pushes all of those valid humans with bad ideas together and makes a big echo chamber.
He didn’t say we should just say gas them to death (like they’d do to some of us in a heartbeat), he just pointed out they deserve no right to be aggressive against minorities.
I see no issue there. If they want to be decent citizens there’s an easy solution to that; stop being a nazi.
Edit: I otherwise agree with your comment, as they probably need some deprogramming to actually achieve said solution.
So you’re saying for example a woman gets brought up in an environment where she’s raised as a nazi you think that it’d be acceptable for someone to rape and beat her?
I don’t really think you do, I’m not going to bother listing other examples but you get the point - what you’re saying is not only absurd but it’s clearly not what you actually believe.
All people are people, it’s that simple and there’s no more to it.
The first sentence you posted is exactly the thread that line of thought leads down. Disenfranchised people need to be talked to, met with empathy from the people they’ve been told are The Other. That’s the only way to destigmatize the two from each other.
No, I was saying Nazis have a history of death and destruction, while people leaning towards democracy tend to be a little more gentle with their fellow man.
Nobody deserves to be beaten or raped and I certainly didn’t imply that.
You literally said they should have no rights, I get that you hadn’t thought about what you were saying but I really think it’s important to think about the implications of things we say.
I’d link that clip everyone always uses about the law Vs satan but it’s overused, surfice to sau dehumanising humans isn’t a thing good people do - and yes I know it’s popular to at the moment but when I was a kid everyone thought calling things gay as an insult was a great thing and we as a society grew from that so we can grow from this.
I obviously meant they shouldn’t have any rights to practice their nazism or do harmful things to whomever they dislike so much, not that they shouldn’t have any human rights.
I feel like this should’ve been fairly obvious given the context of the conversation. Human rights should always be the first concern no matter who it concerns. Do you think nazis feel the same way?
With all due respect, with just how many people are literally calling for violence in this thread, no, I didn’t connect those dots either. If you’re actually truthful about not meaning they shouldn’t have human rights, I’d strongly consider editing your previous statement. If you leave it, you’re feeding into the hate echo chamber that you actually seem pretty opposed to. Words have got to be specific, if you’re going to speak in absolutes, or people WILL misunderstand or mischaracterize you.
They might, but from my point of view human rights are a given in every situation. I also feel strongly about every human being holding the same value regardless of their standing in society.
I thought we were discussing what could be done to curb nazism, and again, I didn’t mention any sort of violence anywhere. I thought it was clear that I meant that Nazis shouldn’t have rights to do harm to others, or do other hateful things. I was in no way advocating removing their human rights.
“they’d do that to us in a heartbeat” is both wrong (not every person who entertains these ideas actually wants to kill anyone) and also not even a good point. If you want to improve the world noticeably, you have to be BETTER THAN not the same as. Go talk to a nazi, actually understand what they think and feel, and figure out where that disconnect is.
There’s no paradox if you look at it as a social contract. If you don’t uphold your part of the contract (tolerating others) then you aren’t entitled to benefits from the contract (being tolerated by others).
I love that some of these idiots used their work email addresses. I wonder if Full Care landscaping out of Louisville, Kentucky cares that their VP of Operations is a neo-nazi?
Implying you couldn’t figure out by meeting them. I’m guessing just like people who listen to Christian music these people are loud and proud. Probably have SS tattoos on their neck. Unless it’s actually decent music and random listeners just got doxxed as Nazis.
Ok so when you compare things it doesn’t mean that you think they’re identical, for example if i compare the similarities between the number one with the number two I’m not saying that 1=2; they are both sigle digit integer values and someone can say that without equating them.
The statement made was that Christian music fans and nazi music fans share a trait, though the trait is expressed differently - that trait being that they are very easy to identify from outward appearances and that it would be hard to know one without knowing about their beliefs. People who listen to Christian music tend to wear crosses and talk about Jesus a lot, Nazis get swastikas tattooed and talk about Hitler.
That doesn’t mean they’re the same in every regard or morally equivalent, I have a lot of things in common with Hitler and so do you, if someone pointed out the fact we all have respiratory systems that doesn’t mean they think we’re culpable for genocidal war crimes.
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