I am going to use this thread to make a continuation of what I’ve posted in the first megathread where I shared a plethora of related links that share insight on the nature of this conflict.
^At 1:43:50, Finklestein asserts that Israel would bomb a residential area, wait for people to come out and call an ambulance, and then bomb the ambulance.
^At 00:24:15, Ali asserts that Israel is willing to shoot their own civilians as evidenced by the Hannibal Directive, verifiable events, and testimonies such as Yasmin Porat’s where the IDF was shooting indiscriminately and even fired tank shells into Israeli homes.
They migrated from North Arabia and took Jewish land every time the Jews were forcefully removed by a long line of oppressors. Then, when every Arab country started kicking out Jews, thy had nowhere to go but their homeland. When they arrived in the early 40’s en masse, the Palestinian leader met with Hitler to see about exterminating them. You got the colonizer/colonized dynamic backwards. This is what happens when you get your info from Facebook.
I saw this YouTube comment where people were arguing whether the Palestinians or Jewish people were there first. Does anyone know how accurate this comment is?
Second, up until the colonial era, when the Jews were being persecuted by European nations, they sought refuge under Arab and Muslim rule. One notable example would be the Muslim Sultan, Salah ad-Din, allowing Jews to resettle in Jerusalem after the European Crusaders brutally kicked them out. Another example would be the treatment of Jews under the Ottoman Empire.
Third, even if all of this was not true, that does not justify the ongoing oppression, atrocities, ethnic cleansing, genocide of the indigenous people for the past 75 years, nor does it change who is and isn’t a colonizer and the colonized. This video gives a good explanation on why.
Thanks! You seemed very informed about the conflict so yours felt like a good comment to ask that question under, which had been on my mind since I saw it under an old Abby Martin video of her interviews with Israelis. That video looks like it will probably take some time to watch but it gives me a place to start.
Here will be a compiled list of 972 magazine articles related to this conflict, continually updated as I delve into this harrowing treasure trove of information:
What’s the educated opinion of how could this been handled by Israel? Honest question. (Ignoring the fact that Israel failed with intel)
To me it seems like Gaza had no intention to get rid of Hamas though at the same time bombing is unnecessary as the culprits can’t really leave other than the secret tunnels to Egypt which can’t really be bombed.
So the only real alternative is a full Blockade and ultimatum or something? Clearly Gaza doesn’t stand a chance against IDF too so Israel had all of the cards to conjure any response they wanted.
I’ve tried to Google similar modern scenarios and couldn’t find anything.
To me it seems like Gaza had no intention to get rid of Hamas though at the same time bombing is unnecessary.
There hasn’t been elections for 16 or 17 iirc so how can Palestinians “get rid of” Hamas?
Hamas was supported & funded by Netanyahus likud party specifically because it drove a wedge between those in Gaza and in the West Bank. Classic divide and conquer technique.
As for what Israel can do? They can get rid of the genocidal crook that’s running their government and his two murderous far right henchmen and grasp that he had concocted this situation for several reasons:
To divert attention away from his corruption and fraud indictments
To quell the protests that have been going on for months against him because of the corruption and legislation he has passed to curtail the supreme courts ability to hold the executive to account.
It sounds like you just put everything you don’t like about Israel in that answer, but without actually giving an answer how this actually could be handled. “Just don’t to bad stuff, do good stuff” How would that have been an appropriate response to the terrorist attack?
You’re talking as though the attacks happened in a vacuum, without intelligence from several sources pre-warning of it and without a certain level of collusion from the Israeli executive to allow it to happen and bring capitalised by then for it’s maximum effect.
When you can genuinely approach the subject not from such a disingenuous perspective then my response may well be perceived by you as a bit more than "If you don’t want to be taken for a cunt then don’t act like one "
That would be the exact reactionary response I would expect from someone with no grasp of the history, its complexity or even a miniscule amount of knowledge of the atrocities that have been carried out against civilians by both sides
I did. Replacing the government with one less bad would be good, but what should such a theoretical good government do in response to the Hamas attack? For example, I think more fewer air strikes and more ground combat would be better for minimizing civilian casualties, though more Israeli soldiers would die as a result.
Restore Palestine to the 1917 borders. Grant all Palestinians equal rights within those borders. All zionists who were involved in perpetrating war crimes either directly, or indirectly via policy, to face trial at the Hague
I really don’t care whats tenable for a state born out of terrorism that has been carrying out ethnic cleansing and genocide against the indigenous people for the last 70 plus years.
They have no fucking legitimacy and as much right to continue to exist as the NSDAP government after WW2.
To clarify, are you saying give the West Bank and Gaza strip statehood as a Nation of Palisade separate from Israel, or give the people there citizenship as Israelis?
Stop using the phrase “terrorist attack” to mean “unspeakable evil that can never ever be justified by anyone for anything and can never be questioned and must be responded to with all possible violence means necessary”.
Terrorism is an act of political resistance, by definition. It is any violence used to inspire fear and bring about political change.
The political change being sought is the end to slow genocide, the end to apartheid, the end to violent displacement, the end to violent neglect, the end to subjugation. When analyzing the situation, the decision was made by the resistance fighters that this action would lead to political change, and so far that possibility is still there.
Israel’s response should have been ages ago. It has no legitimacy anymore. It exists purely through violent domination. There is no way for Israel to respond correctly except to begin the political process of dissolving itself and ceding power to the Palestinians. They won’t do this, so literally anything else is just going to be a continuation of the last 80 years of violent oppression. There’s no way for Israel to act correctly because it hasn’t been acting correctly for decades and responding to this attack isn’t going to change that.
What might change it is their military being bested by the resistance, their missile defense shield being shown to not protect anyone, fear on the part of settlers causing them to abandon settlements, and internal rebellion demanding justice and ending the illegal occupation.
Dealing with this situation logically doesn’t work, because it’s not logic that got it started.
Both sides have majority support for essentially exterminating the other side.
Add to the fact that both sides are receiving massive external support in order for those external nations to wage a proxy war against each other, and it’s just a shit show all around.
You’re right, logic didn’t start the current conflict. The British did when they disarmed Palestinians and armed and trained Zionist paramilitaries. This enabled the Zionists to forcibly evict hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from their homes in a brutal ethnic cleansing campaign. The pace at which Palestinians are being displaced has slowed but it has never stopped. While Palestinian resistance movements have received outside support it pales in comparison to the military support Israel receives from the US and other western countries. This conflict is unfortunately very one sided.
“Got control” is doing a lot of work in that sentence. You can’t just paper over British involvement and the hundreds of Palestinian villages that were destroyed in a mass ethnic cleansing campaign by Zionists. This was clearly a dramatic escalation in any religious or ethnic violence that occurred in the region as compared to years prior. You can’t just ignore that and expect anyone to think you’re discussing the issue in good faith.
Speaking of which, Palestine under Ottoman rule was more peaceful. The wiki articles you linked don’t even reference massacres happening in Palestine. So your point is moot.
The British didn’t start this shit. Not even close.
Who started it is moot though, neither side wants to peacefully end this so they’re going to keep fighting.
You think that if the west stops supporting Israel that Hamas is just going to stop attacking? That’s naïve as fuck. Hamas with Iran’s support will just push into Israel and the table will just be tilted the other way instead.
That’s all you can come up with? An event that happened 288 years before the events of 1948? That’s supposed to disprove what I said about relative peace in the region for hundreds of years? You have to be kidding me.
Also saying the British had no role to play is just an outright lie. Who controlled Palestine from 1920-1948 I wonder? Could it have been an empire know for stoking sectarian conflict in order to further their own agenda, most famously in 1947 with the partitioning of India? This isn’t rocket science. It’s historical fact.
That said, the war crimes Israel is committing, the children they are killing, the collective punishment they are enforcing right now are not a rational response to Hamas. You can’t tried to murder and ethnically cleanse a people from their land and expect them to not be radicalized in the process. What Israel has been doing, what it is currently doing, will only make things worse for everyone including their own citizens.
If you can’t see that then you’re either blinded by propaganda or your own bloodlust.
Whats the rational response to Hamas then? Overwhelm them with aid?
If either side eliminates the other, peace will happen. That’s generally how wars have worked through history. Even the ottomans didn’t expand without conquering.
We act all morally enlightened these days, but we really aren’t. We’re just talking from the comfort of far away.
What you’re describing is genocide plain and simple. If I really have to explain to you why genocide is not a solution there really is no hope for you.
Yes it is Genocide, from both sides. That tends to happen in wars.
From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_and_genocide: The War and Genocide school of thought encompasses the vast majority of scholars and contends that those killed in war can be considered victims of genocide. Scholars in this school reference the genocidal capacities of certain methods of war, such as nuclear weapons, pattern-, fire-, and carpet-bombing, or other indiscriminate strategies, as the use of genocidal violence.
War may not be the best solution, but given that both sides want to exterminate the other, I’m not sure what compromise you expect until one side is weakened enough that they are forced to give up.
People like the person you responded to are so funny because they wrap around and become racist. They actually believe that people have no agency and that they need to be told what to do and how to do things. It was the big bad British teaching them bad things that they can’t think for themselves. Smh.
I was thinking this too but now I’m wondering if it’s a winnable situation at all. The only way to stop it is to give up and admit failure in stopping the attack in the first place and doing better in the future. More iron dome, more border security, whatever. I know it stings but truly it’s the best option with the least loss of life, otherwise Israel ends up with their own version of the Iraq war and for every terrorist killed they’ll be creating more when the inevitable civilians are caught up in it.
The plan is for there to eventually be no people left to become terrorists. It’s not the stupidest plan, it has worked throughout history.
They are on the path of doing this, the more they kill, the more will join the resistance. New acts of resistance (terrorism) will be committed. Then they have an excuse to kill even more. Rinse and repeat, until genocide complete.
Ideally Israel wouldn’t have been oppressing Palestinians in the first place so that Hamas would never have come to power. They could have engaged in dialogue and diplomacy with Hamas and the Palestinians to figure out something that would work for everyone. They could have negotiated a prisoner swap or something for the hostages.
But Israel, specifically Likud and the right-wing parties, have no interest in this. They want all of Palestine gone, and to control it all themselves.
They can also currently stop protecting murderers in the west bank. So we don't have to ask how did a radical movement take power there a couple of years from now.
Not to mention that Hamas had accepted the 1967 borders back in 2017 and it was Netanyahu who rejected it. Hamas is a pet project by Netanyahu to divide Palestinians in Gaza from the West Bank. He’s helped nurture and support them as a means to do more land grabs and expand Israel’s territorial grip. So the starting point has to be a full withdrawal of the occupation, the ability for Palestinians to have a democratic government that is free from Israeli influence, and the restoration of the 1967 borders. The withdrawal of all Israeli settlers from within Palestinian borders.
You leave out that in the same statement, Hamas denied the statehood of Israel, indicating that they wanted Israel to make huge one-sided concessions, without making any concessions of their own.
Get a peace-keeping force made up of Iranians. If missiles are still being shot from Gaza after that, Israel can go to war with Iran and cut out the middle-man.
Israel could stop being an apartheid state and stop illegally occupying Palestinian land and imprisoning millions of gazans and hamas would no longer be a political force. Because hamas is a violent reaction to colonial violence after nonviolent reactions failed for decades.
Yeah but seriously though and also it’s not that long ago that the land the concert was on was part of Gaza / Palestine. Seriously the compression of the space over the last couple decades has been shocking. It’s like hosting a concert in no man’s land between North and South Korea.
I get it. It’s cheap farmland now to people that are willing to get killed for cheap land to farm and sell to the cities and someone thought perfect cheap and out of the way to do designer drugs… I hate it. But it doesn’t mean they should have died but it does make what happened stupid and tragic.
I highly recommend Beau of the Fifth Column for more informal news about the conflict. He only ever reports when something can be verified, and has a team helping him do research.
It took me a looooong time to warm up to him and even understand his position on the world. I just didn’t understand what his angle was… But then it sort of just happened.
He’s a very intelligent dude with excellent views.
Never heard of this guy before your post. He is a YouTuber who may have done time for human smuggling? Why would he be a better reporter than the actual news orgs on the ground?
He’s a secondary source that independently verifies facts. He has connections with people like Chelsea Manning and many other sources of information and knowledge. He is a part of several mutual aid groups that also provide him with information. He served in the military for 20 years. He’s not just “a guy in a basement”, that’s a studio set made to look like his shed. He specializes in deprogramming MAGA conservatives by making his videos appear like a MAGA “news” source (as a consequence, finding a specific video from him is difficult)
He made a mistake a long time ago, served his time, and outside of his channel, is also heavily involved in disaster relief work, political advocacy for leftist causes, etc.
But, clearly you’re someone who believes our justice system is too lax. Could probably use some scarlet letters, or even better, we can brand their foreheads with “FELON”. That sound good to you?
Because when they’re arguing in mega threads, IDF propagandists can’t 404 the post when you checkmate their bullshit. They can’t be as unhinged as they’d like to be.
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