Taiwan is a province of China. This is a well documented fact, and Taiwan’s legal standing is not in question. This is the position held by the UN as well as practically all the countries in the world. This is also the fundamental basis for having diplomatic relations between US and China per Potsdam Proclamation that was signed 77 years ago between China, the US & the UK. This position has never officially changed. You can also read about it on the US state department site:
It states that Taiwan is part of the Republic of China. Chiang Kai-shek signed it, not Mao. You can’t just revise history the way you see fit. Communist states are pretty big on that admittedly.
It states that US has a one China policy and the government of China happens to be PRC as recognized by the UN and practically every nation on earth. If you still can’t understand this basic fact what else is there to tell you.
Are we looking at the same Potsdam Declaration from 1945? Nowhere does it mention a one China policy. It does reference the Cairo Declaration but that also did not talk about a one China policy. That one started that Japan needs to give back the territories it took from the Republic of China including Manchuria and Taiwan. I guess Manchuria should be under control of the Republic of China instead of the People’s Republic of China.
One China policy is an internal US policy, and acknowledgement that Taiwan is part of China. In terms of international law, the only thing that matters is the fact that UN recognizes Taiwan being part of China. You keep on doing your mental gymnastics though.
Then why even mention the Potsdam Declaration as if that had anything to do with your point? You made multiple claims about it that simply don’t exist.
It has zilch to do with any sort of one China policy. You made a link that is not there. The Potsdam Declaration does not even deal with the Allies’ relationship with the Republic of China. It simply states that Japan will surrender and retreat from the territories they invaded. Please point out what lines in either the Potsdam Declaration or the Cairo Declaration that have anything to do with the Allies’ relationship with the Republic of China. Both deal with the Allies’ relationship and demands from Japan at the time.
You continue to be confused here. Postdam Declaration and One China policy are simply the basis for the dialogue between China and US, and that is the basis on which US acknowledges that Taiwan is indeed part of China. In terms of international law, the only thing that matters is the UN stance which is that Taiwan is part of China. This is in no way ambiguous.
You seem to be the one who is confused. The Potsdam Declaration is not the basis for any sort of dialog between China and the US. That deals with Japan’s surrender. It was also signed by a representative for the Republic of China. Please where in the very short declaration that it is the basis for dialog between the US and the People’s Republic of China:
We, the President of the United States, the President of the National Government of the Republic of China and the Prime Minister of Great Britain, representing the hundreds of millions of our countrymen, have conferred and agree that Japan shall be given an opportunity to end this war.
(2) The prodigious land, sea and air forces of the United States, the British Empire and of China, many times reinforced by their armies and air fleets from the west are poised to strike the final blows upon Japan. This military power is sustained and inspired by the determination of all the Allied nations to prosecute the war against Japan until she ceases to resist.
(3) The result of the futile and senseless German resistance to the might of the aroused free peoples of the world stands forth in awful clarity as an example to the people of Japan. The might that now converges on Japan is immeasurably greater than that which, when applied to the resisting Nazis, necessarily laid waste to the lands, the industry and the method of life of the whole German people. The full application of our military power, backed by our resolve, will 3 mean the inevitable and complete destruction of the Japanese armed forces and just as inevitably the utter devastation of the Japanese homeland.
(4) The time has come for Japan to decide whether she will continue to be controlled by those self-willed milita[r]istic advisers whose unintelligent calculations have brought the Empire of Japan to the threshold of annihilation, or whether she will follow the path of reason.
(5) Following are our terms. We will not deviate from them. There are no alternatives. We shall brook no delay.
(6) There must be eliminated for all time the authority and influence of those who have deceived and misled the people of Japan into embarking on world conquest, for we insist that a new order of peace, security and justice will be impossible until irresponsible militarism is driven from the world.
(7) Until such a new order is established and until there is convincing proof that Japan’s war-making power is destroyed, points in Japanese territory to be designated by the Allies shall be occupied to secure the achievement of the basic objectives we are here setting forth.
(8) The terms of the Cairo Declaration4 shall be carried out and Japanese sovereignty shall be limited to the islands of Honshu, Hokkaido, Kyushu, Shikoku and such minor islands as we determine.
(9) The Japanese military forces, after being completely disarmed, shall be permitted to return to their homes with the opportunity to lead peaceful and productive lives.
(10) We do not intend that the Japanese shall be enslaved as a race or destroyed as [a] nation, but stern justice shall be meted out to all war criminals, including those who have visited cruelties upon our prisoners. The Japanese government shall remove all obstacles to the revival and strength[en]ing of democratic tendencies among the Japanese people. Freedom of speech, of religion, and of thought, as well as respect for the fundamental human rights shall be established.
(11) Japan shall be permitted to maintain such industries as will sustain her economy and permit the exaction of just reparations in kind, but not those industries which would enable her to re-arm for war. To this end, access to, as distinguished from control of raw materials shall be permitted. Eventual Japanese participation in world trade relations shall be permitted.
(12) The occupying forces of the Allies shall be withdrawn from Japan as soon as these objectives have been accomplished and there has been established in accordance with the freely expressed will of the Japanese people a peacefully inclined and responsible government.
(13) We call upon the Government of Japan to proclaim now the unconditional surrender of all the Japanese armed forces, and to provide proper and adequate assurances of their good faith in such action. The alternative for Japan is prompt and utter destruction.
You might have a point with the one China policy but mentioning the Potsdam Declaration makes no fucking sense.
How many times do I have to explain to you that it’s the UN stance that matters in terms of international law. The only reason I mentioned Postdam is as the basis for dialog. It’s clear that you’re just not reading what I’m writing. Bye.
Thanks for finally admitting that this comment you made in reference to the Potsdam Declaration is simply wrong:
It (Potsdam Declaration) states that US has a one China policy and the government of China happens to be PRC as recognized by the UN and practically every nation on earth. If you still can’t understand this basic fact what else is there to tell you.
That comment says precisely what I’ve been telling you here. Postdam Declaration is the basis for the US one China policy, but UN recognition of PRC as the legitimate government is what matters internationally. It’s absolutely hilarious that you’ve literally spent days perseverating over this. Get a life.
The governments of Texas and Hawaii don’t pretend to control the entire United States.
The China/Taiwan thing is downright silly. They can pretend all day long and make all the claims they want, but at the end of the day it’s just make-believe. The PRC doesn’t control Taiwan, and Taiwan doesn’t control the PRC. The rest of the world will smile and nod and say whatever we have to in order to get what we want, in the same way you’d smile and nod until your crazy neighbor stops ranting and goes back in his house.
US has basically committing a genocide in Hawaii, having annexed it after WW2. Here are just some of the atrocities US is committing there. There is an independence movement there that very much deserves support from the world.
China/Taiwan thing is silly only because Taiwan independence is a complete joke given that it’s entirely reliant on mainland China economically. China is going along with the farce simply because they expect to end it in a peaceful way. In fact, that almost happened back in 2014 when KMT was about to officially repatriate. The deal was that Taiwan would be allowed to keep an autonomous government and have a representative on the mainland. US ran a color revolution in response that put the current DPP government in power. However, their popularity has recently plummeted and it’s very likely that KMT will get back into power in the elections next year. At that point the talks of resolving the independence issue peacefully will likely restart. KMT officials have already travelled to the mainland this year for talks.
And the Hawaii stuff has exactly what to do with China? Oh wait, it doesn’t. The US being “nice” isn’t even part of this discussion. And really, neither the PRC or ROC have any leg to stand on when it comes to accusations of atrocities.
As far as the rest, none of that matters. Does the PRC control Taiwain now? No, no it doesn’t. Has the PRC controlled Taiwan for all these decades it’s played this game of pretend? No, no, it hasn’t. Until the PRC has actual control over Taiwan, its claims of ownership are meaningless.
My point was that China should start actively supporting independence in Hawaii, start doing freedom of navigation drills around there, fund political parties in Hawaii that promote independence, and fly native Hawaiian politicians to China for training.
And you can keep doing whatever mental gymnastics you like, but the reality is that that Taiwan is internationally recognized as being a part of China, and if China decided that it wanted to end the farce by force it could do that any time it likes. That’s the real world that you should try engaging with.
If the people of Hawai’i had a completely different form of government and separate foreign relations and the public popularly supported independence, why would they not be allowed that? None of those are true though. Independence is not popular in Hawai’i. The Native population would like more autonomy and recognition which they should get but that is a fast cry from wanting independence.
Well, to be fair, they wouldn’t be allowed that. We had a bit of a war about that sort of thing, and the supreme court maintains that a state has no right to leave the union. But you’re exactly right that independence isn’t popular in Hawaii.
And that would make no sense at all, since the Hawaiian independence movement is so tiny as to be nonexistent. But again, that has nothing to do with this discussion.
You’re back to repeating yourself. I’m not the one doing mental gymnastics here. Riddle me this, Batman: if Taiwan is de facto part of the ROC, then why do we get our chips - the irreplaceable ones, not the 555 timer knockoffs - from Taiwan and not the mainland? Why aren’t semiconductors produced in the PRC common in the global supply chain? Why do US companies invest so much money in Taiwanese fabs? Why does only Taiwan and South Korea have the ability to make chips at a 5nm process or smaller?
In short, why can we live without the PRC’s fabs but not Taiwan’s? It’s because for all intents and purposes, they’re different countries. They just share a fantasy that they’re not, and we go along with it because it’s not worth the trouble. Until one of them quits dreaming and actually takes the other one over, they’re going to be two different countries.
I love how you argument is, well we actually slaughtered most of the indigenous population, so it’s not a problem anymore. Quintessentially American thing to say.
When did I ever claim that? When did I ever justify the actions of the US in Hawaii? You are making a lot of assumptions about my opinions and have nothing to back them up with.
I stated that it was irrelevant to the actual discussion about Taiwan. Remember the topic we were actually discussing? If you want to talk about Hawaiian history, then make a separate post about it.
You literally just said that Hawaiian independence movement is so tiny as to be nonexistent, why do you think that is, where did you think all the people go?
Meanwhile, it’s relevant to the discussion of Taiwan because US is the sole reason there is a problem in Taiwan. If you can’t understand how China funding and supporting and independence movement in Hawaii would be analogous to what US is doing in Taiwan, then what else is there to say to you.
The people didn’t “go” anywhere. They’re still there. Their descendants make up around 10% of the population. They’re US citizens and the majority of them aren’t part of any independence movement. Did some die during the period where the US overthrew their monarchy? Of course! It was an armed conflict, after all. Did we slaughter all or even a significant percentage of the natives? No, we didn’t.
We have slaughtered native populations elsewhere. You want to point fingers at the US, there’s plenty of places to point. But your Hawaiian argument reeks of ignorance.
And again, that has nothing in common with the PRC/ROC division.
You claim that the US is the only reason Taiwan doesn’t want to be part of the PRC. Is that what the PRC government tells its people? That the Taiwanese desperately want to dissolve their government and submit to the PRC but us evil Americans won’t let them? Why not ask some Taiwanese people about that?
You admit that there is a “problem in Taiwan,” but maintain the illusion that the PRC controls Taiwan? You can’t have it both ways. Either you control it, or you don’t.
There is nothing else you can say to me, because you ran out of arguments a while ago and keep trying to push some narrative about Hawaii. You haven’t answered any of the questions from my last comment. You haven’t given me any reasons why Taiwan is really part of the PRC in any practical sense, because there isn’t one.
Should really read that link I gave you up there from an actual native person in Hawaii.
The only thing that reeks of ignorance is claiming that US isn’t the only reason Taiwan issue exists. Where did the money for separatist movement come from exactly, who created the sunflower movement, and props up the DPP excatly?
US is the problem in Taiwan, after the civil war in China, US decided to prop up the side that lost and actually referred to Taiwan as an unsinkable carrier. That’s the problem in Taiwan.
There is nothing else I can say to you because it’s pretty clear that you’re either woefully uninformed on the subject you’re attempting to debate or just a shill for your empire.
Why? I’ve spent a good deal of time in Hawaii, know quite a few native people personally, and have read up on Hawaii’s history. Yet some link from someone that searches out and posts nothing but anti-US articles all the time is supposed to change my mind? I don’t think so.
Going back to the actual topic (Remember the topic? About chip availability and Taiwan being the source of chips, and how Taiwan is de facto its own country? Yeah, that one.):
You claim that the US is the reason for Taiwan not being part of the PRC. You also say Taiwan is part of the PRC. So what is it? You can’t have it both ways.
Oh well, since you’re so well informed on Hawaii, are you denying anything the link says or do you think that’s just normal stuff happening there that you endorse?
The actual topic is that Taiwan is not its own country, and you continuing to repeat that over and over here isn’t going to change reality. The issue isn’t between Taiwan and the rest of China, that can be resolved any time. The issue is between China and US. Right now China expects that it will be able to push US influence out of Taiwan in a peaceful way, and as I’ve earlier explained, that’s precisely where things are likely to go next year when KMT gets in power. However, if China decides they’ve had enough of US messing around in their country and violating their sovereignty then they will resolve the issue militarily. These are the only two possible outcomes here.
No, I’m not denying anything about Hawaii because it’s irrelevant to the topic.
I don’t argue that the PRC says it owns Taiwan. My argument is that, in reality, it’s just words. I could walk down the main street of Taipei today with my pants down and the PRC could do nothing to stop me. The ROC, on the other hand, can.
Your civil war isn’t over yet. You can blame us for that all you like, but it doesn’t change the fact that the PRC does not, in fact, control Taiwan. And take this from an evil imperialist: if you don’t control it, it’s not yours.
I love how I’ve explained three separate times how this is relevant to the topic, and you just ignored that. It’s like when you talk to a telemarketer with a script they have to follow. 😂
Again, your argument is nonsensical and I explained in detail why it’s nonsensical. China will either let people of Taiwan kick US out the way people did in Hong Kong, or they will take action to kick US out. Either way, the end result will be that US is going to lose its unsinkable carrier.
And I’ve explained several times why Hawaii is irrelevant to the topic, yet you keep yammering on about it and wanting me to “condone” the US’ actions in Hawaii. What I condone or not condone has no bearing on the PRC and Taiwan situation. What the US did in Hawaii has no bearing on the PRC and Taiwan situation. You’re just trying to deflect the actual argument.
Again, your argument is nonsensical and I explained in detail why it’s nonsensical.
No, you didn’t. You sidestepped the topic altogether and tried to turn the discussion into something else.
China will either let people of Taiwan kick US out the way people did in Hong Kong, or they will take action to kick US out. Either way, the end result will be that US is going to lose its unsinkable carrier.
And when that day happens, the PRC will finally own Taiwan. Until then, it’s just hand waving and words. Feel free to send me a “I told you so” message when it happens.
And I’ve explained several times why I think China should start doing all the things US is doing in Taiwan in Hawaii. Of course, you’re correct that making parallels between the two is at best superficial. Taiwan is rogue province of China, while Hawaii is an independent country US occupied by force.
Meanwhile, I don’t know what argument you claim I’m trying to deflect given that I’ve repeatedly addressed yours directly.
And when that day happens, the PRC will finally own Taiwan. Until then, it’s just hand waving and words. Feel free to send me a “I told you so” message when it happens.
If you genuinely believe that then really don’t know what else to tell you. It’s pretty obvious that China is allowing Taiwan to play these games, but the reality is there is no substance behind them. Claiming Taiwan is independent is like claiming that CHAZ was independent before cops cleared it out.
That part of Cap Hill still received government services and laws still applied there. Police could go in and arrest people. The police chose to ignore calls on the area.
The two situations have jack shit to do with each other and are not similar at all.
Taiwan is likewise entirely dependent on mainland China economically, and Chinese military could go in and put an end to the farce any time as well. They’re choosing to let the situation be. It’s basically exactly the same situation.
Taiwan is absolutely not entirely dependent on the mainland. The PRC also does not have the ability put any successful military force on the island otherwise they would have done it. It is delusional to think otherwise.
Oh and potato chips? Forget about it. Dill pickle, salt and vinegar, ketchup… We can’t be expected to go on without ketchup chips. Looks like big red has got us this time boys. 😋
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