Has India ever been free of corruption enough to actually be a democracy? I get that Modi is a fascist and all, but has the “world’s largest democracy” ever been anything but a sham for the average Indian?
But I would say that it was mainly the Chinese people who gave me that impression with their consistent and overwhelming approval of their government, and their majority view that it is indeed democratic. I know that any such heterodox claims will be dismissed out of hand, but I’ll still give you a shot.
In our modern age, it really doesn’t. We have the infrastructure to make direct democracy possible, we just lack the political will to take responsibility for our communities and vote and be informed as much as that would require. As humans, not as a nation in particular.
We have the technology, but not the social skills. Most of America doesn’t know their next door neighbors, let alone their community. We have a lot of steps to go before direct democracy is the best solution.
Of course not. India used to be secular. the far right Hindu extremism is taking over. Also it’s so good to be able to post this and not be trolled by pro Modi trolls. The amount of concentration of power due to lack of alternatives is so scary.
a form of government in which the people have the authority to deliberate and decide legislation (“direct democracy”), or to choose governing officials to do so (“representative democracy”).
Going by wikipedia, India fits in as a representative democracy. None of the elections are contested despite widespread corruptions. Its pretty much assumed all major parties do so and thus in a level field.
Where most have issue is:
Features of democracy often include freedom of assembly, association, property rights, freedom of religion and speech, citizenship, consent of the governed, voting rights, freedom from unwarranted governmental deprivation of the right to life and liberty, and minority rights.
India has some level of trouble with almost all of those. Both in past as well as some ongoing.
A large part of the reason is all available government choices are shitty in some sense or other. Modi is bad but so was their opposition. India didn’t start having these issues magically the day modi came to power. In that sense many blaming him ignore how deep rooted these problamatic views are in general soceity (at least in some areas and communities).
My point is that the many issues pointed here stems from a deeper problem and exists despite India being a democracy not because it isn’t. Infact if it was nearly as authoritarian as many claim, it would have plunged into greater chaos.
People in China say it’s a democratic country that represents their interests, but I’m sure a western chauvinist who’s never been to China knows a lot better than people living there.
Yogthos cited nine sources and summarised the main theme running through them. Those sources included esteemed Western outputs. How is that shilling for China?
You mean to say that the system that led to the Iraq war, the 2007-9 housing crisis, the unpreparedness for a predictable pandemic, and myriad other events of this kind – with no option for the 'represented' publics to prevent said events – is unstable? You might just be on to something.
In unrelated news, the Bank of England has raised interest rates with the stated intention of making homeowners poorer. About 20% poorer, I'm told. The board of the bank is unelected and the electorate have zero control over its decisions. The (unelected) Prime Minister appears to disagree with the decision but also has zero control over the board's decisions.
The bank hopes that by making people poorer, inflation will come down – after two years – and workers will become so desperate that they are too scared to go on strike for a pay rise! This is all public knowledge because several interested parties said the quiet part out loud.
Don't worry, though, Britain is a liberal democracy so the Brits can vote for different representatives in a year's time. Well, those who survive will be able to vote. And nobody will be able to vote for the Bank of England board. But it's still a democracy.
The board of the bank is unelected and the electorate have zero control over its decisions. The (unelected) Prime Minister appears to disagree with the decision but also has zero control over the board’s decisions.
This is more feature than bug in a central bank. Let’s say the US president had direct control over fiscal policy. The president says print money and drop the interest rate, the central bank says how much. It gets really tempting when reelection comes around to juice the economy. The negative consequences - inflation - take enough time to do their damage that people will already be going to the polls before they get hit.
The way the Bank of England gets its board does seem less than ideal, but not terrible as these things go. It’s kind of a run of the mill technocratic structure.
I'll upvote this as it's fair point, but my point was that liberal democracies cannot claim to be democratic if there is no real democratic oversight over such significant political decisions. The fact that this can be dismissed as part of a technocracy illustrates the point well, I think. So many people will lose their homes and hundreds of thousands/millions will see a dip in their living standards and no amount of the 'democracy' on offer (periodic voting) can change that. It makes a mockery of the concept and, as you say, it's a feature not a bug of liberal democracy. We're in full agreement about that!
Adorable that you think west isn’t authoritarian. Every government is fundamentally authoritarian because the government has the monopoly on violence, that’s where its authority comes from. And when people in western countries don’t behave the governments unleash their security forces on them as they did during George Floyd protests in US and they’re doing in France right now.
No, I mean it, they really have taken the models of the British Empire and the American Empires and expanded them in a way neither at their heights could ever justify nor imagine. Surveillance system sales to authoritarian governments? Selling surveillance in other countries?! Like the CIA look like idiots spending money to get surveillance in other countries on that one. Plus they get to support the dictators keeping the peasants sending raw resources to China!
Purposely loaning money to countries with bad credit histories for leverage to get them to build ports for the Chinese empire’s trade network?! Britten spent so much time and money fighting wars, and colonizing just to be our shined on that.
And let’s not even get to started on the levels of control business have over workers there. The US robber barons use the State here looks like child’s play to the anti-union, anti-solidarity work done by the CCP. A giant union ran by the largest capitalist in the country? With authorities able to crack down on grassroots organizing on the opposite side, and the ability to send slaves from regions in need of “reeducation” all around the country. Makes the US look practically socialist on some fronts (we aren’t and have a good way to go).
They aren’t loaning out money to have ports built? They don’t have a state run union? Their government isn’t filled with some of their richest? They don’t have a program reducate certain peoples that includes shipping them accross the country? Like come on, some of these are just established public facts that even the CCP doesn’t deny.
They aren’t loaning out money to have ports built?
The myth of Chinese debt trap has been thoroughly debunked, just a few examples
In Dec 2021, BBC Interviewed Dr. Deborah Bräutigam About the Debt-Trap Story in Africa. BBC Then Made It Look Like She Agreed With Them During the Broadcast. Corrections Were (Obscurely) Published Eight Months Later in July 2022 But Without Any Change to the Broadcast. archive.is/e0BYg
They don’t have a program reducate certain peoples that includes shipping them accross the country?
A weird framing for programs to provide people with jobs and education.
Like come on, some of these are just established public facts that even the CCP doesn’t deny.
As I said, every single claim you made is disinformation. Also, no idea what CCP is. It’s called the Communist Party of China, CPC. The fact that you can’t even get that straight says volumes.
Yes, these are actual sources. This whole narrative that official Chinese sources are somehow unreliable isn’t actually based on anything other than pure chauvinism. This is no different from linking about a US government site talking about US government. And it’s the height of absurdity to claim that National Congress or the Central Committee don’t hold any power. I love how you just make things up and state them confidently as a form of argument.
Official Chinese sources are unreliable when they spout bullshit like saying the rubberstamping meetup that happens once every blue moon that solely consists of party selected individuals is who holds the power instead of the much smaller group that actually actively controls legislation.
But I guess political science is also exclusively western propaganda so there’s no choice but to believe a choppy power point presentation.
Who told you that official Chinese sources are unreliable, was it the “reliable” western sources that continuously lie about everything regarding China by any chance? 😂
Do you think that the only choices are between Chinese and US state propaganda?
You don’t even need independent research to realize that a parliament that only meets once in a while to verify the work of a much smaller group can’t be the one that’s actually in power.
If you look a bit more into it, you see that the members are replaced in fixed time spans, are all part of the same party, are picked from the top down and so it goes on.
Who downvoted this? Conservatism has always been an ideology that's opposed to progress, democracy and freedom. It holds back society to preserve tradition and "family values" while promoting xenophobia, bigotry, and unquestioned submission to authority. The most conservative states in the United States are also some of the poorest, with the lowest standards of living, and also the most backwards. It isn't much different in other countries. The Nazis were conservative. Islamic countries with Sharia Law are conservative. And right now, American Conservatives are trying to implement a Christian-flavoured Sharia Law.
This isn't true, though; politics is in the driver's seat, and capital is at the mercy of government. We can see this even in the US where the Biden administration is pushing decoupling/deglobalization for geopolitical and domestic reasons, to the discomfort of US-based multinationals. On the other side of the aisle, the business-friendly cosmopolitan arm of the Republican party has lost ground to the Trumpian populist wing. You see a similar story elsewhere in the world. In the case of Russia, a lot of people thought that Putin was a tool of the oligarchs, so you can change his behavior by putting pressure on the oligarchs. Surprise, it turned out that the oligarchs have to do what Putin tells them, not the other way round.
I'm not really sure what you're trying to say, are the democrats not friendly with ANY big businesses? Is the extreme right wing of US conservatives not motivated by money (Donald Trump is often thought of as a successful venture capitalist, the amount of money funneled out during his presidency, etc...)?
Russia is one of the most inequal countries in the world in terms of wealth distribution, and for decades now oligarchs in Russia have gone hand in hand with the state in eroding any form of democracy and exploiting what freedom those citizens do have.
So, can you really say democracy can exist with money?
This is ridiculous. “Politics” cannot be in the driver’s seat because “politics” is not an entity. Domestic capital legally falls under the jurisdiction of the government, but that does not mean that it is actually at the mercy of the government. Capital since before the country was even founded has owned the vast majority of politicians and dictated the way that the government is organized and the laws it passes. That’s why people without land couldn’t even vote at first and why we still retain a senate, which is 100% just a body for checking the power of people who do not own land versus those who own a lot of land.
Speaking as a Marxist, this is false. Capitalism was once the historical progressive force against feudalism. This was already waning two centuries ago, but it was not always true.
Glad another Marxist said it. The problem isn't that capitalism was always the wrong choice, it's that we're clinging to it long beyond its best before date.
Yes, it did, though vestiges still remain. That’s what the French Revolution overwhelmingly was, the bourgeoisie claiming power over the old feudal nobility and the monarchy (as anything but a figurehead). Also the American revolution and many others.
They resemble each other because they are in all cases the “owning class” claiming the seat as the “ruling class”, just as the slaveholders of classical antiquity and the patriarchs of pre-historical agrarian/pastoral societies.
It’s kind of a tangent, but in explaining the concept of equality, Lenin discusses some of the differences between feudalism and liberal capitalism in a letter here.
There are places such as Thailand and Bhutan where the struggle is still alive between the two modes of production, but those are the very rare exceptions to the global order of liberal capitalism (in various forms) vs whatever you want to call the theocratic capitalism of Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc. vs the state socialism of the PRC, Cuba, etc.
Genuine question re: US conservative states, what came first, poverty or conservativism? As in, what caused the other? If not a little of column A and B…
There are a lot of conservatives here thanks to Reddit. Tankie hysteria allows them to speak in parallel to the radlibs and anarcho-bidenists without too much dispute, so they have blended in. Funny how that works.
Vaush claims the anarchist label (in contravention of any evidence that he practices anarchist principals in his daily life), he simped hard for Biden during the 2020 election, and disingenuous Marxists use that as a box to stick practicing anarchists in.
Not really. Every instance of fascism has been really good at adapting to a local culture and political environment. Just to cite the major ones from 1930s Europe, there are clear differences between nazism (German fascism), Francoism (Spanish fascism) and Italian fascism (the original).
It'd be absurd for fascism in the USA to parade with swastikas, pagan symbols and Hugo Boss uniforms. An American fascism would use stars and stripes, crosses and… red baseball caps, I guess. In the same way, Modi's Indian fascism uses Indian iconography to maintain power.
Fascism also exploits grievances, much like other populist movements. I’m not very familiar with Spanish and Italian fascism, but the Nazis had a whole stack of grievances. Many were complete nonsense, but that never stopped anyone.
Give Caste: The Origins of Our Discontents a look. Wilkerson’s got well researched links between India’s caste system, U.S. Slavery, and the German Nazis. I was really surprised to learn that the Nazis researched national policies to find out how to best institute ‘purity’. They ended up modeling theirs after the United States.
Fascims might not look the same every where, but it shares more than was obvious to me…
It sounds like they are utilizing symbolism in the same way. The rules for fascism are the same regardless of what apparel and branding they slap on it.
This doesn’t tell me anything. It all follows the same playbook. Nationalism, suppression of human rights, sexism, etc. It’s the same shit. Fascism isn’t something that has different versions for different countries. ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html
Well in any case, you shouldnt support Authoritarians, or those who rule through imposing long term centeralized control. They are the antithesis to freedom. Anyone can easily label themselves as supporting 'freedom'.
The true strength of democratic systems anyways is that it provides a buffer between people and out of control government entities. This government might have your approval but will the same people be leading in 40 years?? 60 years?? Will they have the same values??
They will have the same powers regardless of whether you agree with them or not.
If democracy is the enemy of freedom, either that means it's not working correctly, or the people have a skewed idea of what freedom is.
Who's freedom? Your freedom? my freedom? Freedom of what? Freedom without boundaries is just Anarchy. but who determines those boundaries - who determines what kinds of freedom constitutes "freedom"
The US definition in its constitution defines The five freedoms it protects: speech, religion, press, assembly, and the right to petition the government.
So to break those down
You can say what you like about the government, but likewise you can't silence anyone else on their opinion. This means they can state their opinion that you should get fucked when you say an opinion they disagree with - they can't actually make you get fucked though.
You can practice any recognised religion freely without persecution. (Note: persecution does not stop people from criticising religion, as that would violate the freedom of speech, it stops government persecution from practicing or not practicing religions)
It allows the press to report freely - the government can't dictate what the press can and cannot say, particularly when it comes to political and governmental matters
Assembly - the right to gather and peacefully protest. - the moment it becomes even the slightest bit violent is when they're allowed to step in.
The right for your opinion to be heard in government. You can post your opinions to government officials and have them be heard - likewise, other people can do the same. It doesn't mean the official has to act on it, just that they have to take it into account.
As to whether or not these freedoms are being honoured is up for debate. You'll have to read the lawbooks for the concrete legal definitions and decide for yourself if
the definition is wrong
the current situation fits the definition
how you would redefine it.
As an Aussie I have no say in how your country is run - and my own country has its own issues, but I do impore you to understand the position on the global stage your country has and why it affects us all.
Isn't democracy collapsing everywhere? The USA's electoral voting system means democracy doesn't exist. A vote in California is worth 27% of a vote in Wyoming in terms of representation. Add on blatant gerrymandering and you've got a rigged system.
The UK has introduced voter ID laws for a problem that never existed in the past. The UK has also had multiple unelected prime ministers due to the way that the parliamentary system works.
Haven't seen any indication of it being in danger in Switzerland. But we have proportional voting rather than first past the post and referenda are common.
I was going to say this. The older democratic systems (easily identified by 1st-past-the-post) are falling apart at the seams, but the rest of us is (relatively) fine. Places like the US and UK need to change their system, but politicians have an incentive not to change anything.
Places like the US and UK need to change their system, but politicians have an incentive not to change anything.
Fortunately with the US, its decentralized system allows experimentation at the state and local level. My city (Portland, OR) just switched to ranked choice voting for city council along with a host of other changes. Voters statewide will soon be able to vote on using RCV for state races. Meanwhile, ranked choice has been implemented in several other states and localities across the country. It will take a while, but I think ranked choice will become the norm within a few decades.
Unfortunately the form of RCV used everywhere in the US is Hare’s method, which eliminates candidates based only on voters’ first-choice rankings, which largely just perpetuates all the same problems as FPTP. There are many other better reforms. One of those should become the norm instead.
It has four main linguistic and cultural regions: German, French, Italian and Romansh. Although most Swiss are German-speaking, national identity is fairly cohesive, being rooted in a common historical background, shared values such as federalism and direct democracy,[15][page needed] and Alpine symbolism.[16][17] Swiss identity transcends language, ethnicity, and religion, leading to Switzerland being described as a Willensnation (“nation of volition”) rather than a nation state.[18]
Due to its linguistic diversity, Switzerland is known by multiple native names: Schweiz [ˈʃvaɪts] (German);[f][g] Suisse [sɥis(ə)] (French); Svizzera [ˈzvittsera] (Italian); and Svizra [ˈʒviːtsrɐ, ˈʒviːtsʁɐ] (Romansh).[h] On coins and stamps, the Latin name, Confoederatio Helvetica — frequently shortened to “Helvetia” — is used instead of the spoken languages.
I also think the local traditions differentiating down to single villages are more important and alive than in other countries.
But yes, “national identity is fairly cohesive”, maybe you meant that.
Seems like the problem isn’t with democracy, but with the western flavor of liberal parliamentary democracy. Democracy is working just fine in China according to people who live there. All the available studies, including ones coming from prominent western institutions such as Harvard, consistently show that China is democratic and that public satisfaction with the government is far higher than in any western country:
edit: amazing to see rediquette seep into Lemmy now with people downvoting anything that doesn’t fit with their preconceptions.
It’s also evident that a lot of people here don’t actually understand what democracy actually is. Democracy is when the government implements the will of the majority. What the links I’ve provided show is that the government in China consistently works in the interest of the people of China, and this is reflected in consistently high public satisfaction with the government. Furthermore, the links show that public participation in the governance of China is far higher than it is in the western countries. The party has 15 million members, and consists largely of working class people. Meanwhile, western parties are filled with rich career politicians with practically no working class representation.
The sheer amount of political illiteracy in the west is equal parts depressing and hilarious.
It’s like you don’t even have a passing familiarity with Chinese politics. The local councils which the average person can actually vote for are notoriously corrupt. Easily as bad as anything you’ll find in the west, and often far more so.
It’s like I linked a whole bunch of scholarly articles from institutions like Harvard explaining Chinese politics. The reality is that people in China have seen their lives consistently improve with each and every decade. Countless studies show that the standard of living in China is improving at an incredible rate, and that people see the government work in their interest.
And yes, China isn’t perfect, there’s corruption, but that’s missing the point entirely. Corruption exists in every human society, the discussion is whose interest the government is working in. In the west the government works in the interest of the capital owning class, in China it works in the interest of the working majority.
Bro, I have family in China and have lived there for a few years. You are completely delusional about how this works in practice. I’ve also seen the real terror on the real face of a real person when you so much as utter some controversial political language in the wrong company.
It’s actually insane to me that you will call the west brainwashed, and then quote satisfaction surveys of the CCP without a hint of self awareness. Come on. You want actual data? China is ranked lower than basically every other developed nation on the global corruption perception index.
Bro I have friends from China, and lots of my friends moved back to China after university. Weird how Chinese students keep returning to China because it’s such a hell right. What’s insane is that somebody could live in the west and not see the brainwashing.
Meanwhile, it’s absolutely hilarious how you keep going on about corruption when countries like US have an entire government owned by the oligarchs.
Again, the fact you keep dancing around is that quality of life in China has been improving dramatically by practically every measure, meanwhile the opposite is happening in the west. That’s the elephant in the room mr. transparency index.
So what you are saying is that you suddenly aren’t interested in data? Because I was really looking forward to comparing stuff like rural educational attainment, PPP, various human development indices, freedom, democracy indices. There’s like a bunch of stuff which basically backs up what is plainly visible to anyone - that the west has been raising people out of poverty for 200 years and is still doing a pretty decent job of it.
Look, we all know that western liberalism has a lot of really fucking dumb shit about it in the current iteration. And I will definitely acknowledge that there are a lot of good ideas in China. China’s economic miracle is laudable, but - and I say this as a person with an actual stake in Chinese society - it’s time for China to do better, and China doesn’t get better when delusional tankies defend its many clear and obvious problems.
Western liberalism has resulted in some of the worst crimes against humanity in the past 200 years such as the slave trade and the genocide of the native population in America to name a couple.
Look, we all know that western liberalism has a lot of really fucking dumb shit about it in the current iteration. And I will definitely acknowledge that there are a lot of good ideas in China. China’s economic miracle is laudable, but - and I say this as a person with an actual stake in Chinese society - it’s time for China to do better, and China doesn’t get better when delusional tankies defend its many clear and obvious problems.
Nobody said China couldn’t and shouldn’t do better or that China doesn’t have problems. This is literally the case for every human society. However, what’s being argued is that China is demonstrably producing better material outcomes than western liberal democracies are.
Again, compared to the west, China is still a poor country. Yes it is growing, and that growth has been very impressive, and there is much we can all learn from it. But to claim that China has surpassed the west in terms of eliminating poverty is simply incorrect.
You are making a moral argument, to which I am marginally sympathetic, and backing it up with bad information.
The numbers say that people in China are now better off than people in Europe. And this is with China having to rebuild itself after a civil war and the destruction in WW2. Meanwhile, the reason the west is rich is because the west colonized the rest of humanity and has been brutally exploiting it. Claiming that the west is rich because of liberalism is factually wrong. The west is rich because it enslaved billions of people across the globe plundering their labour and resources.
You are making a moral argument, to which I am marginally sympathetic, and backing it up with bad information.
What specifically is the bad information you’re referring to. I’ve provided you with the actual numbers here.
So far you have provided a survey about government satisfaction. When presented with data which shows that China is quite a bit more corrupt than the west, you changed the subject to argue prosperity and wealth.
And on those topics, you are wrong as well. China trails the west considerably on:
We could keep going here. You are very clearly the one who is cherry picking data. Like many people who make these ridiculous claim, you seem to be under the impression that everyone in China lives in tier 1 cities, and ignore things like China’s hukou caste system, or the fact that the average rural Chinese person does not even attempt a high school education.
Again, I acknowledge that China has made miraculous advancements in many of these areas, and will likely be on par or even surpass the west in many of these this century. However, you are clearly arguing in bad faith, moving goalposts and ranting about a bunch of things you seem to have quite a poor grasp of.
Again, you Wikipedia is not exactly the most reliable source for these things, and I’ve provided you with very different numbers from other sources. Pretty much every source that accounts for stuff like PPP shows that China is doing quite well compared to the west. However, you once again ignore the fact that the west had a head start, and that the wealth in the west comes from colonialism. China’s growth doesn’t come at the cost of impoverishment of other countries the way western growth does. Finally, the really important part is the trajectory. Life in China is improving, life in the west is getting worse.
And claiming that when I’m arguing in bad faith or moving goal posts when I’ve been consistently saying the same thing and backing up with sources says everything I need to know about you. Bye.
I’m not going to waste more time on you. It’s pretty clear you’re just going to keep ignoring everything I say and repeating the same thing like a broken record. You don’t want to have an honest discussion here.
On the contrary, I am trying to have a conversation. I have attempted to address every premise you’ve offered with a combination of history, data and personal experience. I don’t believe you have offered sources for many of your claim, but in case I missed them, it would be helpful if you provided a summary.
If you are trying to have a conversation then we’re clearly talking past each other. My points are as follows.
We see consistent and steady improvement in the quality of life of people in China. I’ve provided many sources demonstrating this.
China has a stable economy that does not see constant crashes the way western economies do.
The government of China is working in the interest of the public, and has popular support from the vast majority of people who live in China. This is again supported by the numerous resources I’ve provided.
The government of China predominantly consists of working class people.
The economy of China is directed towards the interests of the majority, and all the core economy, such as energy production, is publicly owned.
The disparity in wealth with the west comes from the west brutally exploiting the global south to enrich western nations. Despite this, the standards of living in the west continue to decline.
Practically all the improvements in the standard of living have come from China in the past decades, meanwhile the standard of living globally has actually declined.
A major difference between China and the West re: corruption is that it's institutionalized in the West and called "lobbying." Because of this, it's easy for Westerners to point at China and say local councils are "notoriously corrupt" but not bat an eye at lobbyists, rich donors, and [super]pacs swaying Congressional votes.
I'm surprised to see a narrative like this in some of the links, especially the Harvard ones. But I suppose the children of the ruling class need to be taught what the world is actually like if they are to have any hope of continuing to rule it.
It won't serve a Harvard graduate very well to be lied to about what China is like – once their uncle gets them a cushy job, they'll be expected to negotiate with Chinese businesses and diplomats, and that won't go well if all they can repeat is the propaganda line.
It’s amazing how much factual information you can find in western sources when you know where to look. The genius of western propaganda though is that majority of people will not read these sources, and will react the way we see a lot of people in this thread reacting when presented with them. There’s no need for censorship because people censor themselves collectively. This is the ultimate brainwashing the west managed to achieve.
I'm not interested in any political system where I can't criticize the ruling party without fearing for my or my family's safety or permanently becoming unable to find employment anywhere except coal/steel plants working 12-14/hours straight 6 days a week for piss wages...
Don't get me wrong, I'm an anarchist, I'm against the USA model as much as the Chinese model.
But lol, yeah sorry, not interested in being forced to conform by a hierarchy of "leaders" who have no inherent right to do so in the name of "society" or some vague idea of the greater good/social contract.
Fallacious argument. Just because something hasn't been successful before or people don't see how to make it work doesn't justify an existing unethical/immoral system. Plenty of people thought it was crazy to imagine a world where slavery wasn't a thing. That didn't justify continuing that system though.
There are many of examples of anarchist or pseudo-anarchist communities that exist. Many Shaolin monastic communities are anarchistic, and egalitarian depending on the sect. Some Mennonite and old world Amish communities are anarchistic also, having only collective property and some personal property, no privatization.
Some first nations tribes were pseudo-anarchist, operating as a collective with egalitarian leadership based largely on life experience and wisdom, they maintained completely voluntary relationships with other tribes in the region and had no private property.
It’s not a fallacious argument at all. When people keep trying to do something for over a century and have nothing to show for it, then the onus is on them to demonstrate that it can work. If you tell me that walking sucks because you can flap your arms and fly much faster, then you have to demonstrate that it’s actually possible to do.
Communists have built successful communist states that liberated millions of people from capitalist oppression, provided them with education, food, housing, and jobs. These are real tangible improvements that are possible following the communist model.
Anarchists have never achieved any sort of liberation at scale, and these pseudo-anarchist communities don’t translate into systemic change in society.
What communists accomplished in USSR, China, Cuba, Laos, and Vietnam are all successes of communism, even if they don’t fit with your ideals. All of these revolutions have resulted in huge tangible improvements in the standard of living for the people, and created far more egalitarian societies than anything seen under capitalism.
Not really successes at all if you’ve read your Marx.
All of them followed in Stalins ‘leninistic’ (how ironic) approach. With a single ruler that reeks of old fashioned monarchism rather then the rule of the prolitariat. Some of them even renouncing communism and embracing blatant capitalism (some only embracing capitalism but staying communist in name only).
The only thing they do for pure marxism is accelerating the revolution to come, but actualy condoning repression in other places just for that sake is quite fin de siecle type of marxist thought.
Having read my Marx, I know that Marx realized that Leninistic approach would be necessary to create a socialist state. This is the key disagreement Marx had with anarchists. Furthermore, it’s obvious that when the world is dominated by a capitalist hegemon, socialist states exist under siege. The fact that you equate socialist states with monarchism shows profound lack of understanding of the subject you’re debating.
It’s pretty clear that the proletariat very much do the ruling in Vietnam, China, Cuba. Again, it’s not some uptopian society, but it is one where the government represents the interests of the majority. This is clearly demonstrated by the differing outcomes from capitalist states where the governments serve the interests of the capital owning class. Even in case of DPRK, productive forces are still largely turned towards the interests of the people as opposed to enriching oligarchs through exploitation of the working class.
Core industry of the country being publicly owned is the first step towards communism, and that’s what socialist states accomplish. The current fight is to overthrow global capitalism as the dominant system. Only once that’s achieved will anything better be possible. It’s not possible to get to some utopian society from where the world is today, and this is what Marxists realize. Change is a process, and we look for tangible material improvements in the conditions of the majority. Focusing on maximizing personal freedoms before basic needs are met is simply a case of putting the cart before the horse.
Well I think it depends on your interpretation. I personally think the post Stalin brands of communism are doing the movement a disservice as in my view they misrepresent the communist ideology.
For instance i don’t see much immigration from people in capitalist nations to any of the countries you mentioned, even not people who embrace that brand of socialism. If there’s any talk about migrating from capitalist countries to more socialist ones, is usually people from the states to (slightly more) socialist places like Germany or Scandinavia.
Therefore my opinion is that communist ideas are better propagated through that manner. Armed uprisings tend to leave the most ruthless competitor in charge to get corrupted by the power and not actually following through with the communist plan and devise a brand of socialism in which them being in charge is also communist.
But i think we fundamentally disagree on that. That’s not bad, though. I can see some reason to some of the brand of socialism that is general on lemmygrad. The only thing I fail to comprehend is the support of the current Russian leadership as they don’t even pretend to have anything to do with socialist ideology.
Until somebody shows how to do better, I’ll go with what actually works. Meanwhile, immigration argument is not sound because people who would immigrate to these countries don’t have the means to do so. People with the means to immigrate are the ones largely benefiting from the exploitation happening under capitalism.
I’d also say that it’s also incorrect to call places like Germany or Scandinavia socialist in a Marxist sense. These are capitalist countries with a social safety net. In Marxist theory, socialism is the transitional period between capitalism and communism where the proletariat holds power, but capitalist relations have not been fully abolished. This is clearly not the case in these countries.
Finally, I don’t think anybody would argue that Russia today is socialist in any sense. It’s a capitalist country with an oligarchy ruling over it much as we see in the west. However, Russia is actively helping break US domination over the world. This is a necessary step in order for socialism to flourish anywhere. I also see Russia falling into Chinese sphere of influence as a net positive. Majority of older people in Russia still have fond memories of USSR, and young people are now increasingly looking at Chinese model as the way forward. Putin won’t be around forever, and once he is gone there will be opportunity for positive change.
Of the countries in discussion, I’ve only ever been to Cuba. Well it seems like a posterchild for succesful socialism and even a non-dynastic ruler. There are two currencies, one that you can use in basic shops and one for tourists (KUK). The thing is that everyone is trying their damdest to get their hands on the KUK’s as you can only use that to buy luxury products. It’s not even weird if you see what you can buy in the governement stores. It doesnt keep capitalism out, it fetishises it.
I did call European countries slightly more socialist, from an American pov, which is undeniable. There were and are ‘socialist’ regimes where they had trouble keeping their own people from leaving their country, just for w whiff of the sweet soma of capitalism. The priority, I think, is to first build a state where people are longing to live. And considering global migration the majority of economic refugees seeks capitalis countries. The power of money seems the driving problem, because it gets people what they want. You have to find a system that works better than money, that is the hard nut to crack, because it works harder the more of it you own.
Russia is actively helping break US domination over the world
Aha, that’s the angle I missed, that makes sense in a way, thanks. I really woudn’t underestimate the ability of unfettered captitalism and cronyism to break US domination on it’s own. China seems to step up to the plate quite forcefully, not through arms, but through, quite literally, owning the means of production. I do only fear their power of surveillance, and I do not condone it, too orwellian for me.
Have your considered that Cuba’s development may be impacted by the fact that the global hegemon has spent decades finding new and creative ways to fuck Cuba over. It’s basically this problem that every existing socialist state has right now cym.ie/…/left-anti-communism-the-unkindest-cut-by…
Yet, despite all the problems Cuba has, it has higher life expectancy than US, higher literacy, and it’s one of the most sustainable countries in the world. Cuba also managed to effectively protect its population during covid and develop its own vaccines. All while being a tiny island under siege. These are the material tangible benefits that are a direct result of the socialist system Cuba has.
Meanwhile, if the west ever does become socialist then the flavor of socialism it will have will necessarily be rooted in the conditions of the west, its culture, history, and all other factors that are unique to the west. This is why I think there isn’t much value in worrying about how China or other socialist countries developed. Each country has its own unique circumstances, and no two are exactly alike. China is different from Cuba, or Vietnam, or what USSR was. The only key principle is that the core of the economy is publicly owned and that the working class holds power as opposed to capitalists. How that’s accomplished is up to the people of each country to figure out.
The UK has also had multiple unelected prime ministers due to the way that the parliamentary system works.
That's... not any indicator democracy is "on the wane". In most Western European countries we don't directly vote for the one man/woman, we vote for MPs because the legislative power is in the hands of the Parliament. As long as the Parliament is made of elected MPs then democracy is working just fine.
The US’s system is unbalanced and unfair, but it’s far from “doesn’t exist”. And while you have listed a pair of blue/red state pairs, look at the 2nd and next to last state and you see a red/blue state pair. So it’s unfair, but it’s not uniformly unfair.
Absolutely a good point. Californians get fucked in senate voting power compared to some dickhead religious voter from a small red state. It's a travesty that California and New York have the same amount of Senate representation as North and South Dakota.
Then you have lifetime judicial appointments. Trumpf was able to get 3 Supreme Court judges in during his 4 years. The impact will last a generation or two at least.
The corruption at the highest levels is open and astounding. PACs can basically buy elections. Insider trading is also normalized in Congress by both sides.
Religious fundamentalists have infiltrated all levels of government and are pushing for a Christian Theocracy. Very similar to what is happening in India. Religion has NO place in politics.
The US is not a good example of a democracy. There are Conservative Republicans (far right), Maga Republicans (Fascist) and Democrats (Center right). Nothing much in between as the system is designed for only 2 parties.
Also, when was the last time a republican won the popular vote? This is proof enough the US is a poor democracy as the will of the people is ignored because of the electoral college.
Vote weight is fairly common as it provides minority groups a bit more control of their areas. I find that reasonable. There is no such thing as perfect democracy unless you voted on every single issue regardless of importance and that is simply not practical. Sure things could be designed a bit better but the majority of democratic countries have systems that are working quite well. The biggest destabilizes now likely comes more from social media that spreads every dissatisfaction because it sells and makes people think the world is coming to an end. It’s not. Or at least not because of failing democracies.
International commentators can't seem to wrap their minds around the idea that Modi's BJP is having so much success because Indians, on the whole, like them and think they're doing a pretty good job.
Americans in particular tend to think that if you don't have two equally strong parties duking it out over 50/50 nailbiter elections, it's not democracy. But plenty of postwar and postcolonial democracies end up with dominant parties, without falling into dictatorship. In Japan, for example, the LDP has held power for something like 95% of the time since WWII, and it's a pretty healthy democracy.
The LDP has never had opposition leaders arrested. Just because they are popular doesn't mean that they aren't anti-democratic. Democracy requires free elections, which cannot exist if a significant minority is being actively suppressed.
Dictators can also be popular, but that doesn’t make their systems of government democratic. I would suggest you read the article if you haven’t because it discusses both Modi’s popularity and the specific actions he has taken that undermine Indian democracy.
Yeah literally, this same thing can be said about every country on earth. The only places where corporations haven't infected the government are ones like Afghanistan that have no strong corporations.
Haha true that. This was inevitable btw, the further capitalism develops the more its will absorb everything. Religion is done for, community is done for, bourgie democracy is dying, next come nationality I guess, the environment is already compromised. It truly is a vampiric black hole.
This is not because of capitalism. Religion has been used as a justification to extort money - look at the Catholic church in the Medieval times. If capitalists could make you believe that giving them money had any correlation with the afterlife they would gladly do so.
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