German energy giant RWE has begun dismantling a wind farm to make way for a further expansion of an open-pit lignite coal mine in the western region of North Rhine Westphalia.
I thought renewables were cheaper than coal. How is this possible?
German energy giant RWE has begun dismantling a wind farm to make way for a further expansion of an open-pit lignite coal mine in the western region of North Rhine Westphalia.
The text written by the OP is a rhetorical question about what I quoted, not a description. To read it you had to read the quoted text too, or decide to skip it for some reason.
Just shows how green capitalism is just a waste of time. You’d think a country as geographically small and vulnerable as Germany would take this into account but guess not.
Literally fucking why. The energy consumption of Germany is hanging by this like geopolitical shoestring. Renewables could make next winter or the winter after mildly affordable for Germans. Yet instead, the German state is expanding this dystopian arm that digs a massive pit in the earth… to burn the most pollutant fuel that we have. Like what? What an incredible act of defiance against the wishes and needs of its people. And that’s coming from an American.
I’ve been schooled as to why this article is a misdirection and propoganda rather than serious need for concern.
I think the problem is that people really don’t like freezing to death in winter when there just happens to not be enough sun or wind. So you need something as a backup. But we’re afraid of nuclear and just happen to have all this coal lying around. That’s the sad why.
Why? Because you all want to hear that lie. That's the whole reason they tell it. Because you pay in clicks for it. Germany bad always sells no matter how braindead the desinformation being poushed is.
Germany is going for a complete coal phase-out by 2030. For this the new government (in office since Dec 2021) renegotiated the already contracted and approved increase of the area coal is digged for, so the last one happened earlier this year. But you have probably heard the story about the viallage of Lützerath "being demolished because stupid Germany started to increase coal digging again" in the media. That's desinformation because in reality they stopped coal digging there, btw saving half a dozen equally small villages scheduled for destruction more than a decade ago already.
Germany has also shut down it's remaining nuclear reactors that combined -up to their shutdown- produced the miniscule share of ~2% of electricity. In the same time they build up wind- and solarpower. In fact Germany's complete nuclear power (and even at it's peak it was not that much but only looks bigger because electricity demand in the early 1990s was much lower) was replaced with much more capacities in renewable power, so much indeed that they also decreased coal by nearly the same capacity at the same time. Yet, you have probably read dozens of times how "insane Germans think coal is clean energy and shut down all their nuclear to burn more of it".
Wind turbines run about a decade before gear boxes, blades etc. need to be replaced. The whole thing (with replacements) can probably run 25-30 years, but this is rarely done because the improvements in tech make it more worthwhile to completely replace them with more efficient (and nowadays often bigger) models. With that in mind a company build wind turbines next to the digging site knowing that they will need to disassemble them a decade later again (side note: those particular wind mills were also quite problematic and the company went out of business a few years ago), which is shown in the picture. Again, framing this as dismantling wind for more coal power as negotiated by the German Green party is blatant desinformation.
Long story, short. Lobbyists pay good money to push story of insane Greens destroying the country and nature, too. Lobbyists pay good money to push the story of how it's all hopeless to try to get rid of coal as big industry countries like Germany are increasing coal instead. And people love to hate on Germany and eat up that bullshit so for publications it's a double win as this kind of crap also generated clicks like crazy.
PS: And you can also see how the propaganda is working as right here in this thread there's lots of "they are lying about renewables and just plan to continue burning coal forever" and at this point in time I'm not even sure anymore if it's just the usual paid trolls or the brain-washing really is that successful.
I’m afraid that at least partly it’s that successful. I have heard a lot of complaints about how germany manages these, but I never heard this side of the story before.
Because the entire economy of that region depends on coal mining and coal miners. You are aware that closing the mine down tomorrow would instantly land a fairly large group of people into poverty because they have no other marketable job skills other than coal mining, right?
The former government killed 100k jobs in the solar industry when solar power became too cheap for others to compete while whining non-stop about the poor 10k workers in coal mining. They did the same later for wind power and so even now some companies are in trouble as they had to size down so heavily that they can't even get full use out of the boom in wind power now.
Jobs in coal mining are basically an issue for 2-3 local politicians, for everyone else of that former government it's corruption lobbyism and jobs as board members and advisors.
As for why they keep increasing the dig site: It's actually jsut logical. They need coal for another few years and can either increase the area or dig deeper. And the latter is massively more damaging for the environment as it involves a lot of ground water manipulation.
The contract to expand the coal mine was signed a long time ago, it wouldnt be signed now. RWE, who mines the coal there, would have to be compensated if they werent allowed to mine there.
The compensation would probably be so high that its cheaper to just build renewable energy elsewhere, and the wind turbines are at the end of their lifespan anyway.
I just hope that we dont get a right wing government anytime soon that gives out the next stupid contract to mine even more coal there.
Because, in the end we have more coal underground than we ever need or should use, its not a question of finding coal, but instead of how or if we should mine it.
They’re implemented on the EU level but Germany isn’t exactly unknown for pushing for them. The EP also likes to do it, the commission has more an eye on competition, sometimes those things overlap e.g. pushing train operators to finally implement a unified ticket shop (buying a trip from a single provider, even if the trains are run by different ones, has the consumer benefit that if a train is delayed and you miss a connection you can then take pretty much whatever train to reach your goal. And from the commission’s perspective they want train operators to compete, but not by building walled gardens)
As far as Germany specifically, I think one I heard about ISPs being required to discount customers who fall victim to low bandwidth. In other words, they can’t sell you a 50mb/s contract and then say “sorry, bandwidth is bad here so you will only get 20mb/s.”
Yeah, little online test about it, too, but in the end even that took years and there isn’t really any feasible way to get what you want other than suing the company
The contract for RWE to expand the mine there goes back decades and the wind farm operator knew it would be demolished before they build it. It’s at the end of its life cycle now and had to be demolished one way or another.
German government could either breach their contract with RWE and pay them compensation or allow the destruction of a derelict wind park in exchange of RWE stopping coal extraction 8 years earlier then planned. It’s a job well done by the government.
They are the Government, they can just shut down coal immediately by law. Make all coal extraction immediately illegal, sue RWE for climate destruction, throw the executives in jail. Save the planet.
Is that legal? I’ll tell you the answer, it’s not. They would need to pay massive payouts to RWE for breach of contract. What you’re describing is rule of emotion, not rule of law.
Oh it’s absolutely possible to do it legally in Germany: Land, natural resources and means of productions can be socialised without even having to show that it’s for the common good, and compensation wouldn’t be what RWE is hoping for as the amount will not only take their interests into account but also that of the public. Article 15 GG.
But that article has never been used and I indeed would very much prefer if the first time it’s used it’s expropriating landlords in Berlin.
Another interesting approach would be to take Article 14 (2) seriously and demand that RWE buys carbon credits for every single ton of coal they pull out of there. Sure it’s their coal noone is disputing that but using it comes with an obligation to not hurt, if not serve, the common good.
You're disregarding Art.15 III GG then. Particularly Art. 15 III s. 2,3 GG (of the German version), which regulate reimbursement in the case of nationalisation. Which, again, make it a fairly difficult thing to do. Especially as we all know that Art. 20a GG, which is the only logical argument to base this all on, is just a way of getting out of actually doing something. Pretty much everyone has agreed that it means nothing except for a vague sense of 'direction'.
As for your last point, that could just as easily be interpreted as the energy they produce being in the service of energy production for the entire country, as well as ensuring that coal miners continue to have a job. If that's not a socially beneficial use of coal reserves, not sure what to tell you. Energy self sufficiency is important.
As for your landlord comment, which honestly is an entirely different matter in and of itself, that basically won't fall under 'land, natural resources or means of production', unless one of those Berlin judges decides to do Berlin things.
EDIT (because I forgot the context of what I was replying to)
None of this even takes into account that what the guy above me wrote was about simply 'shutting down coal' tomorrow. Which is a very different thing from taking public ownership, and then running the business into the ground overnight.
which regulate reimbursement in the case of nationalisation.
Which is to be equitable between the interest of the owners and society. That is, in a nutshell, below market value.
that could just as easily be interpreted as the energy they produce being in the service of energy production for the entire country
Yeah no that’s not how externalities work. They’re creating damage with that coal, even to break even it has to be curbed in some way, much less for them to do good. If you want to mount that defence don’t create externalities.
As for your landlord comment, which honestly is an entirely different matter in and of itself, that basically won’t fall under ‘land, natural resources or means of production’,
For those big landlords those apartments are means of production of rent. Wouldn’t work for smaller investors or even private abodes but we’re talking about companies with 2000+ (IIRC) apartments, here.
It’s legal if the Government of Germany makes it legal, and as other posters have pointed out, there are already ways that it could be done legally. Stop supporting fossil fuels.
RWE has no conscience left at all (doubt they ever had one). Coal is scheduled to be faded out by 2030 (recently rescheduled from 2038) and I do wonder if there really was no other option than to demolish those 8 windmills (and the nearby village).
That being said: This is a singular incident caused by long-time contracts of the fading industry. It’s not some paradigm shift in Germany. Coal will be gone soon and new windmills will be build.
Realistically speaking they need to get coal another 5 years. Which means either widening the pit or digging deeper. And the latter is massively more damaging, just for the management of ground water levels needed (also more expensive).
The demolitions are part of a deal brokered last year between Robert Habeck, the Green party's minister for economy and climate action and Mona Neubaur, who is the economy minister for North Rhine Westphalia, to allow the expansion of the mine.
In return, RWE had to agree to phase out coal in 2030, eight years before the previous deadline. "It's a good day for climate protection," Habeck said at the time.
What’s the timeline for getting this expansion built? And what’s the lifecycle of the plant? I understand there are energy scarcity concerns, but how is this the most economical option when it’s ~7 years until they’re supposed to phase out coal?
I mean, that’s probably actually it. Short term profits are all shareholders care about. We’ve seen that time and time again where businesses will absolutely mutilate themselves just so shareholders can enjoy a short term price spike. This is just a pump and dump but for the energy industry.
The wind turbines are already at the end of their lifespan and they knew RWE had the license to expand the mine there when the wind turbines where build.
Of course it’s economical for RWE, they are not building a new mine. Just continuing their mining operation there for another 7 years.
That’s possible, particularly if different parties are in power at that time. However the article also notes that lignite is becoming less economically viable and may need to be wound up anyway in 2030.
I’m guessing their bracing for winter without Russian oil. Which will hopefully be transitory, but also sort of delays the inevitable. If they can’t survive a winter without fossil fuels they need to figure it out quick.
I suspect that they have no intention of phasing out coal, or there are certain unrealistic requirements that have to be met before the “agreement” to end coal is enforced. It’s just pageantry, Germany has no intention of ending coal dependence.
This expansion is the last one although actually many more in the next decades were already approved and contracted, which got renegotiated with the energy companies. But of course this was already mispresented earlier this year when everyone reported on Germany destroying the village of Lützerath for their newly started coal digging when it was actually the last one (with half a dozen more similiar small villages originally scheduled for destruction more than a decade ago). But lobbyists pay to push lies and publications love the clicks for the popular outrage about evil Germans. Who cares for facts, anyway...
Those wind power plants were originally build with the knowledge that they have to be disassembeled in less than a decade again. Also those models proved to be very problematic and the company building them went out of business after only 4 years (since then there was only some auxiliary technical support from other companies).
Counter question: How economical is it to stop digging up coal today when the phase-out is 7 years away. They can either increase the pit or dig deeper. The latter is not only more expensive but also more damaging (pumping groundwater away from the hole etc.).
PS: A decade is also the usual life time of a wind power plant nowadays... After that time the gear boxes and blades need to be replaced and the foundation needs to be checked because of constant micro vibrations... In theory the installation itself could run up to 30 years but the technical development is still moving ahead so fast that replacing the whole thing with a newer and more efficient (also often bigger) model usually makes more sense than replacing parts to keep them running. So for now wind turbines are rather short-lived as their replacements see constant substantial improvements.
This is a small site. The owner of the wind turbines had to phase them out due to them being at the end of their lifespan. As there is coal under them. A deal was stipulated a VERY long time ago where when the wind turbines would have had to be removed, an expansion of a coal mine would be built there at the agreement that it will be dismantled by 2030. We are talking about “multiple years” time ago, before the 2030 deadline.
The actual reality of replacing nuclear and reducing coal with renewables.
Also the historic low of fossil fuels after nuclear shutdown (those old reactors not able to react well to changes in supply/demand actually got already existing renewables shut down at times and indirectly increased fossil fuel use slightly...)
The "costly" renewables that are actually so dirt cheap that nothing else can really compete and so lobbyists pay a lot of money to push a lie? Those renewables?
The problem is, Senvion went out of business in 2019, and customers have been struggling to support their turbines. Apparently the Senvion design is exceptionally dependent on software access. Siemens and others have stepped in to offer support contracts to Senvion turbines in good working order, but with the opportunity to mine more lignite at the site, maybe RWE felt that it was time to spin down the Senvion turbines.
It seems like there may be many factors in this decision.
Thanks for providing this context. From what you say it sounds like a bad initial decision from RWE - tieing themselves in to 'wind turbine as a service’doesn’t seem sensible.
We should be using open source solutions for things like energy security. It’s not like our civilization can run without energy generation. The control ought to be in the hands of people, not corporations.
I’m not sure if that is the wind farm. Looking at the article photos, there are a lot of turbines in the area, so there is probably more than one wind farm adjacent to the coal mine. Even with Senvion out of business, it still feels far too early for them to be pulling down turbines - normally they have about 30 years’ life in them before they’re sold on to another country. However, the article also says they’re only pulling down 7 turbines, so even if it is the same wind farm they’re not fully dismantling it.
Edit: Actually I think you’re right about the site. It looks like it might be these turbines they’re pulling down, and I imagine the motorcross site could be included in the project also.
Yeah, but look up the story on the Senvion turbines. Basically, Senvion operators have had to pay big money for service contracts with 3rd parties since Senvion went out of business.
I’m not sure that’s the right wind farm. According to this guardian article, it’s actually the Keyenberg wind farm that’s being dismantled, a retired site from 2001.
Apparently the site is retired because the operator’s permit ends in 2023. Making way eventually for the mine expansion was part of the original deal allowing the land to be used for wind turbines, and so it’s not indicative of any change in climate policy from the German government. Additionally the turbines are somewhat outdated, having only a sixth of the power output of a modern one. They would have to tear down and modernise the turbines anyway even if not for the mine.
However from a publicity standpoint it’s not an ideal move. Could have given up on the lignite and put new wind turbines in instead, perhaps.
The bombing of the Nordstream pipeline upended germany-cool 's energy plan and necessitated a quick replacement because Europe doesn’t have much other sources of fuel in itself.
It really isn’t Germany is subsidizing coal by 1.7bn € every year. Like all currently coal producing countries give huge subsidies to their coal industry because they’d just immediately shut down.
Eco fanatics when they read this: “this is info war bullshit!” ; meanwhile the same eco fanatics : “chernobyl is still killing thousands of people and will do for millenia!”
That’s an old wind farm that would be due being taken down. Wind turbines have a finite life span, they oscillate slightly and this loosens the ground around the base, so after around 30 years they’re taken down. Typically they end up being sold to poorer countries where they’re installed on a new base.
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