When I’m having a barbecue And I ask, “Do you have any dietary restrictions” I’m really just asking do I need to use separate implements and surfaces to handle your food, not your philosophy of human nutrition.
Guilty conscience meat eaters use concern trolling to salvage their own self-esteem. In my experience, those expressions of worry are back handed compliments at best. They never come from people who are in better shape than I am and they don’t come from people with better nutrition either.
I lost 58kg and the only things I ever heard was concern trolling from my friends that resented me for doing what they could not.
Never heard word one about my body while I was unhealthy and unhappy, and the shitty remarks started as soon as the weight reduction became noticeable.
“Woah slow down, don’t want you to disappear!” “You’ve proven your point! You can eat a donut!” “Why do you want to be miserable and only eat seeds?” “Fuck dude you’re vanishing! Eat a hamburger!” “You think you’re better than everyone now!” “It’s actually really unhealthy to be as lean as you’ve become.” “Don’t like hanging out anymore, you make me think about every molecule I put in my damned mouth!” “You look like a skeleton now.”
Wow those are shitty people. Good on you for losing that weight, as a hefty fellow it’s fucking haaaaard work and you should be proud of the effort you put in!
I made so many changes in my journey. I taught myself to cook and made every meal from scratch ingredients… for 6 months. I’m reminiscing now thinking about how many tortillas I’ve pressed, sauces I’ve made, things I’ve fermented, and hundreds of hours on the cutting board. How many times I ordered a “kid size” pizza or sundae on my “cheat” days lol
I ran (poorly), swam, rode, lifted and burned so many calories. I meditated every day and did monthly therapy to help with the mental stress of the physical and lifestyle changes. That is all time, effort, pain, money, and sacrifice.
Every day without wavering I made a hundred difficult little choices that prioritized my goals vs my desires/old patterns. Food everywhere and people genuinely insulted when I wouldn’t partake with them or in their way. Watching my friends literally not enjoy their meal from their own shame, just because my serving was conspicuously smaller. Dealing with my biology compelling me to eat one way while I was consciously reprogramming myself to eat another way. Massive social pressures from all sides.
I never really even told anybody of my goals or changes. I didn’t make it my personality or a thing. Never spoke of it once or advocated anything to my friends. Only spoke about being slimmer when specifically asked.
That’s why it was so hurtful to undertake such tremendous responsibility for my own personal transformation, and then have people internalize it, make my journey about how them and how they feel shitty when they look at me, then make a snide or sinister comment. Only my best friend of 30 years gave me any positive feedback.
The whole thing was kind of a rough ride. Worth it in the end, but wow it was so much more than just eating less.
Thanks for listening. I really appreciate your comment a lot!
Good on you, yeah you can’t downplay the fortitude required to make such life altering changes. It’s so easy to slip back into the status quo. That being said for anyone else reading, if you’ve tried, and failed, remember that you got further along than if you never tried at all. Keep at it, don’t beat yourself up, you can do it!
Wow this is the truth of the post. Not just that it ia demeaning that vegans get harassed but why it’s counter to the reality of the effort being made.
Such and interesting read and I hope you found it worth it in the end…! You’ve verbalised a lot of my experiences with quitting alcohol. It was the hardest thing I’ve done and lost a lot of ‘friends’ along the way. But ended up happier, healthier, and genuinely enjoying life again.
Good for you my friend! Yes it was the same thing when I quit alcohol 8 years ago! Quickly find out that people are happy for you to quit drinking until you actually do it, then it’s like … what you think you’re better than me? Come on have a drink!
Ah that’s interesting and something I hadn’t considered. I wasn’t really on any meds except Nexium at the time. Is your heart medication dose dependent on weight? I genuinely don’t know anything about the conditions or treatment.
What do you credit for the 12kg regaining? Just wondering, my weight still swings about 8kg this way and that but I seem to have generally stabilized in a range.
Is your heart medication dose dependent on weight?
It’s somewhat interesting, because the main heart meds are metabolic blockers (ramipril and bisoprolol, respectively an angiotensin-converting enzime inhibitor, and a beta1-selective blocker that inhibits cAMP phosphorylation), so they can only block certain metabolic paths and once that’s done, they can’t have more effect no matter the dose (they’re basically non-overdoseable).
But… at the same time, I had a diuretic added on (dapagliflozin) as part of a combined diabetes treatment, that used to work fine at the top weight, but at the bottom weight turned out to both reduce blood volume, impacting blood pressure, and lower blood sugar by too much, so that one had to go.
What do you credit for the 12kg regaining?
Reduction in stress (an extreme stress peak is what made me lose most of the weight), along with depression, and general despair due to a double back hernia that left me barely able to walk. I’m slightly better now after some physiotherapy, but still moving way less than before, so it’s anyone’s guess how it will go. It also made me switch to a worse diet, since I can’t stay up long enough to prepare healthier stuff.
Virtually nobody who eats meat feels guilty about it. Animals are there to be food. If there was a life form that could eat me it would, and I’d have to accept that.
Actually every human has some E. Coli in their gut - it's one of the many flora that inhabit our digestive tracts. And what's so bad about cannibalism? Those people in the Andes only survived because they ate their dead teammates, and some of them even said they'd do it again because it's the only thing that prevented them from starvation.
We bred them to be like that tho there were wild versions of chickens. Ever seen a wild turkey? Fuuuuck. Talk about risk if you miss that things taking an eye out. Bovines were easier prey but in the wild would have been protected by bulls, I think?
Okay, let someone murder you and eat you if they are hungry then. Plenty of people go hungry each year, why don’t we eat each other? Or why won’t you capture and eat my dog?
This, ladies, gentlemen, and nonbinaries in finery, is what fascism looks like. “I’m biologically superior”, “I can do whatever I want with lesser beings”, “the whole world exists to serve me”, “I can create an industrial machine of killing for my pleasure”. That’s called fascism. And we don’t tolerate fascists.
Virtually nobody who eats meat feels guilty about it
I felt guilty about it and became a vegetarian and, once I leaned about how milk and eggs lead to death and suffering, a vegan. I have been so for 10 years plus now.
Animals are there to be food.
Yes, but only in the same sense that woman are there for the plesure and serving of men. It’s a social construction and is, as it thankfully has with the perception of woman, changing.
If there was a life form that could eat me it would, and I’d have to accept that.
I don’t think so. I think you’d ramble in about how unethical it is to eat a sentient beeing and how cruel this hypothetical lifeform is. Because that’s how we are build. It’s easiest for us to feel empathie towards our own sorry asses.
You can learn to expand your empathie tough. Start here. Watch it completely. No skipping. Then we can talk:
If there was a life form that could eat me it would
Yeah, it’s called COVID-19. It wants to use your cell nuclei to grow its children from your body’s energy stores, and it doesn’t mind if it shuts down your respiratory system until you can’t breathe. And there are a hundred deadly diseases like it.
Every time you wash your hands, blow your nose with a tissue, or cover your mouth to cough, you are showing you value life above the supposed right of predators to eat you. And that’s okay. Everything has a right to live and that’s okay.
I’m gonna be honest, I wanted to argue against this, but I can’t deny it. I’m part of a relatively overweight family (actually mostly because of immune system problems that thankfully I didn’t inherit) and all I get from my parents are “You’re looking skinny” or “You’re worrying too much about weight” just because I want to exercise and eat well. Even then, I’m ~20lbs over weight. To be devil’s advocate, I think part of it is that overweight people have struggled with problems of being too hard on themselves before, and so don’t want to you fall into that, but go too far the other way. The conversation of overweight/vegans doesn’t exactly overlap perfectly, but it made me think of it.
I'm being facetious. I'm sure as hell not a vegan, I eat steak or chicken every night. And I love to eat meat off the bone feel the flesh and veins wiggling back into my throat. People - you all need to grow a sense of humor and learn to tolerate other points of view.
Keto excludes high-carb foods like bread which almost never contribute to a person’s essential vitamin, mineral, and protein intake. Vegan, on the other hand, excludes plenty of foods that are common sources of essential nutrients and especially protein.
It’s obviously possible to be malnourished on any diet, but if you take a normal healthy diet and exclude keto-unfriendly items, it will almost certainly still be a healthy diet. If you did the same for vegan-unfriendly items, on the other hand, you’d almost certainly have an unhealthy diet without consciously finding suitable vegan replacements.
Vegan is fine if you’re replacing the stuff you take out, not just skip it. It’s easier now, but when vegan was just gaining traction, the alternatives weren’t as plentyful as they are now.
You have a lot of bad information about keto. It certainly doesn’t make you lethargic or miserable, and definitely doesn’t starve your brain. Quite the opposite… it’s being used therapeutically for Parkinson’s disease One of the studies referenced in that article, found here is summarized this way
“More specifically, the symptoms that improved most after keto dieting were urinary problems, pain and other unpleasant sensations, fatigue, daytime sleepiness, and cognitive impairment. These findings are particularly profound because nonmotor symptoms ultimately represent the most disabling aspect of Parkinson’s disease.”
Regarding energy levels most people report having much more energy, and I suspect your friends issue while in the army doing PT was related to electrolytes. People going on any kind of whole food diet, which keto tends to be, often find they get very little salt in their new diet since they’re not eating processed food. People who work out or are otherwise very active often find they have to be intentional about adding salt to their diet or they will in fact find themselves tired and fatigued. Easy to remedy, and again a typical problem for anyone transitioning from a diet with lots of processed foods to one without.
There’s been a lot more un-biased study of keto diets in recent years and a lot better science. It’s not for everybody, but it’s not intrinsically unhealthy and way better than the traditional high-carb, high-sugar, high-processed food diet.
Also, a keto diet does not specifically include or exclude red meat. That’s an individuals choice, just like with virtually any other diet that includes animal protein.
Vegan, on the other hand, excludes plenty of foods that are common sources of essential nutrients and especially protein.
Like what??? Seriously, except for B12 theres nothing a vegan diet doesnt have.
Pistachios are a full protein. Lentils Peas and Veggies make full proteins. What are you on about?
I think they mean if you were just to take your usual diet and remove certain items so as to make your diet keto friendly, you might be fine. But if you took a usual meat/dairy/egg diet and just stopped eating those fortified foods (without finding a substitution for those nutrients), you would be worse off.
Okay, i see what you mean. But i also see that that’s a dumb way to think about it? Who changes their diet by just not eating certain foods anymore without incorporating something else.
Some of the most nutritionally complete foods we can eat like spinach and other such veggies are limited (though not excluded) on a keto diet, meanwhile there is no limit to how much of these you can eat as a vegan. But also food isn’t just medicine or energy, it can also be poison, and other than refined junk it’s going to be the animal foods that are some of the deadliest.
I’ll agree with you that foods like wheat and rice are not very nutritious, but also they aren’t likely to be the foods that kill you, and you can easily not eat them. Meanwhile keto is very hard to do without animal foods, for many people it’s very hard to do even with animal foods. Keto doesn’t just require you to exclude a list of foods like you sell it, it has very strict macro requirements which requires monitoring your intake of many of the allowed foods.
Assuming you’re asking about things like impossible and beyond meat. They are generally not “healthy” but one stark difference is they don’t have cholesterol.
Whether something is healthy or not is very contentious in the first place, especially with how much misinformation there is out there.
I just try to read the labels on the replacements I buy, and most of them just have many random vegetables and stuff, with a seemingly good balance in nutrients and so on. Maybe there is stuff I’m missing, but I don’t see much bad that can be in there.
I think the most important thing is to just have a relatively balanced diet.
I’d say that they are as healthy as the burger king meat they are substituting. I wouldn’t eat either but if you are there, picking either is equally bad so whatever.
The unhealthiest part about them is just gonna be that they’re salty, fried and greasy, just like other fast food. It’s just a lump of plant fibres (usually peas or wheat these days, I find) thrown in a frier.
I assure you these people are not eating healthy meals lol, it’s all bad faith because the idea of them not eating meat makes them feel threatened about the size of their peepee.
To be fair, meat eaters who come into a vegan community to be whiny little dicks because their masculinity is threatened don’t represent the majority of normal people.
Anyone who eats meat is a murderer. I eat meat but only what’s hunted myself so I can be sure that animal wasn’t raised to die or all the other animal rights violations that come with the farming industry. I wouldn’t mind being hunted by a human or a bear aslong as I had a decent life and was able to experience things like freedom and they didn’t use any tools that I consider to be unfair like guns (knives and bows are okay but I prefer handmaking them on site) so the argument of “but what if u were the animal” doesn’t work for me because that’s how I got to this position.
I’m writing this mainly cause I’m curious abt your thoughts on my position. Do u think I’m as bad as farm industry users because I don’t mind eating meat, do u think I’m just a bit depressed and/or psychopathic because I wouldnt mind dying and killing or do u think my position is actually reasonable but its just not how u personally view the issue.
Well I wouldn’t mind dying even by a human if it was in the same way I hunt. So r u telling me its fine? I’d very much doubt that’s what u mean from the (perceived) tone, but ur acc words are saying that cause I did mention before I don’t really mind dying like that yk it’s fair and I had a chance to survive it’s just natural selection at that point. I wouldn’t enjoy it for sure and def not in the moment but I wouldn’t care all that much either infact I’d probably prefer to be killed by an animal so that my body can be eaten and reused as fuel for plants and animals rather than wasted.
I know how to make and use a knife, stake and bow. Bows are a bit fuckey because u have to use intestine. Stakes are the easiest to make albeit they’re a bit difficult to use emotionally. I prefer knives and I try to make them as sharp as possible to minimise pain.
If some type of tool using primate used tools to murder me for food that would feel fair to me even if I didn’t have tools on hand. They would have an advantage in that situation however it was by better utilising using the same environment that I am in against me. I don’t consider that unfair even if they dont have the capabilities to use the environment in that way as I wouldn’t consider a bear smashing my head with a rock heavier than I could lift as unfair.
Edit: I just noticed that u likened me to animal abusers and wtf bro I know my opinions can come off as a bit psychopathic at first but I do genuinely care abt the suffering and try to minimise as much as possible. I have tried vegan protein alternatives but they don’t give you enough to be healthy or I would rather starve than eat them which is most likely caused by my sensory issues and autism which I can’t control
Also before your invalidate my sensory issues and autism by extension like everyone else has. I’ve starved myself for weeks before, the only food I’ve eaten in the past few weeks is bread sometimes with tomato so yk im not starving myself entirely now but I don’t get enough of some essential nutrients. I pass out whenever I stand up most likely because my diet is so restrictive. My nails are all brittle af most likely from a combination of nail biting and various deficiencies. I look like a stick even tho I work out because I’m just not eating well enough to reap those benefits from it and this effects my self image quite a bit althought its certainly not the main thing. Nutrients are what your body fuels itself on and I’ve been running on empty my whole life and not by my own fucking choice so don’t say it is when u very obviously haven’t experienced what it’s like
I can’t without killing animals It’s quite hard for me to do so tho because I want to make sure that I feel the full weight of that act so I usually just don’t eat meat which is pretty much essential in my case for decent protein intake
Edit: I have found a new potential solution. Grinding pumpkin seeds into powder and baking them into bread I’m actually feeling quite optimistic abt this one
I don’t like most meat textures and from the sounds of it that imitates meat. I do think the pumpkin seed is the best option as its incorporating it into a food I already eat hopefully without much change in its taste or texture. It also gives me a reason to grow yeast which may not seem like a positive to you however I love fungi so it is to me.
Well, I'm not murdering it personally, I could never do that, but you're right about them having every right to live their life. But if we didn't slaughter some animals for meat, there'd be no room on earth for us humans, we'd be standing atop stacks of sheep and cows. And besides, they're contributing to my well being and nutrition so I imagine they get a gold star in pig heaven for that.
Veganism isn’t about farming animals, it is about treating not them like property and exploiting them. Stop fucking killing animals you are cruel and evil.
I don’t treat them like property except for my dog ig but I also doubt I’d murder my dog because of the emotional bong the same way a bear wouldn’t murder its cub. I’m only okay with murdering them whenever they have a fair chance (e.g. no guns or other weapons you can’t make on site), they’re adults and they’re wild born and haven’t been held in captivity. I’d be okay with being murdered on those terms so I assume animals would be too
I’m a bit depressed yk haven’t lived the happiest life so maybe I don’t care abt death as much as other but I am genuinely okay with being murdered like that atleast I had a fair chance. I also think you should avoid it where possible but if u have sensory issues like I do and u haven’t found a food that works as a protein intake source then yea go for it. If someine came to me and I could tell they were emotionally distraught about how they can’t eat anything other than meat for a decent source of protein I’d be okay with them eating me and i wouldnt want to die solely for it but it would feel noble in a way so I’d prefer that death to a random one. I’d also be okay with a bear eating me for sustenance even tho I assume it doesnt feel bad abt it so I assume others would feel the same too including animals. Id prefer to eat human meat if there wasnt any health risks and it consented and was legal however its not. My position is solely based on “what would I want done to me?” It’s just my opinions of that are obviously very different from the average vegans. I don’t really eat meat often because I’m able to recognise the suffering that comes with it because of my practices around it.
That's incorrect and unfair. By their physiology and biology, humans are meant to be omnivores. Our digestive tracts and tooth design are for carnivorous and vegetarian consuming, not just one or the other. I've known a lot of vegans and they all seem very judgment like you - unwilling to see any other side of an argument. But it's really childish to call people cruel and evil who are just living according to their god-given needs.
God isn’t real and you don’t need meat. The only argument is whether or not you’re fine with murdering others for your taste pleasure. It’s a yes or a no, very simple.
I also have autism and have tried alot of vegan products. I’m not lying when I say I would starve if only given those to eat. Nuts do work for protein but I sorta binge eat them because they taste incredibly good and I think I developed a mild allergy so I don’t wanna eat them too often in case it gets worse
That's the contradiction you have to live with as an omnivore. I'm not a hunter, I can't stand the thought of hurting another animal for any reason (human or otherwise). But, I refuse to give up chicken, pork, and beef consumption, I just love those things too much and I feel unhealthy when I DON'T have meat in my diet. So - brand me a murderer if you must. But at least I will go down as such with a full and happy belly.
And accusing people of murder for being carnivorous animals doesn't make you sound particularly intelligent. You sound not just silly but very self-righteous. You think plants don't have nervous systems or communities? Wake up, knucklehead - anyway you look at it, we humans are killing living things in order to feed ourselves. Get over yourself.
Imma preface this by saying I’m talking abt a very small section of the population.
I don’t think we could really get rid of meat eating entirely. I mean 100% all the people who do it because its the “best” source of protein or just because they prefer it over other things however there is actual medical conditions like arfid and autism that could cause people to have the only logical source of protein be meat. I myself am autistic and I try to avoid meat where I can because I wouldnt enjoy dying and know animals wouldnt however none of the other solutions ive tried could work long term hence why ive tried finding ways to minimise the harm. My diet is just overall very restrictive in the past few weeks ive basically just eaten various bread products sometimes plain sometimes with tomato. I’m not saying you are cause u honestly come off as quite civil but I’ve noticed a tendency for online vegans to get quite aggressive over the issue which feels (this is a very strong word but I can’t think of a better one) almost ableistic to me as if some autistic people could never be morally correct. If u listened to the end of my wee rant, thank you.
I have autism and arfid. And I fundamentally do not believe in the premise that there exists any disability that forces you to harm or kill others. Except for vampirism. But we all know that Dracula deserves to die for being a bloodsucking rapey murderer, regardless of whether he has a choice. If I believed a disability could force someone to be evil, then I would be forced to believe in treating those people like Dracula. Thankfully, I reject the premise, and believe that powerful technologies of the physical and mental can overcome anything.
Well fundamentally sure I agree but realistically nah. I can’t really spend all day just researching and trying new foods for time and financial reasons. If I could I would but the only logical option I’ve found so far is meat. I haven’t eaten it in months and I almost definitely do need protein but it is hard for me to kill animals so I do try and avoid it but its stopping me from eating healthy. I’d genuinely rather just not get enough protein and expeirence protein deficiency than eat the vegan alternatives for it because all the ones I’ve tried r that bad to me.
Are potatoes and ramen not safe foods for you? I love them. Also, I recently tried Tofu out, and it is the blandest thing I have tasted in my life, which means it’s perfect. I just slap on whatever sauces and spices I want, and the texture is so so inoffensive.
The recommended amount of protein per meal is 15-30g. Potatoes have 3.1 grams of protein per serving. Ramen has 8 grams per serving so its better however every source I find even vegans ones warn against using solely ramen noodles for protein. The vegan ones say to add things ik i dont like including tofu which was too chewy. I don’t eat most meats becsuse of the chewiness too.
I don’t like the texture although I could see it working if I blended them, sieved it to get powder and then baked it into bread. The only potential issue I see there is if it makes the bread powdery but I doubt it would considering bread includes alot of powder already so I’ll try that.
Addiction is a form of slavery - people who sell drugs are selling others into the slavery of addiction and dependency. I only mention that because there are many types of slavery that people tend to overlook.
I just want to chime in and say it is interesting to find a hunter in every vegan thread like this, even though i have not met one irl (i guess because i live in a huge ass city).
also it’s totally not scalable to our large populations. we need to find solutions that are good for the environment and also can be applied to everyone.
(yes, a very small minority of people can only eat meat)
Edit: I’ve starved myself for weeks before on things like school trips simply because there wasn’t any food I could eat so when I say couldn’t I’m not exaggerating
Edit 2: I tried eating nuts for protein because I don’t eat enough but I think I developed some form of allergy because I binge ate them because I liked them so much. I’ve tried other solutions just a heads up
I have sensory issues. Autism is a sensory disability which can cause sensory overload from things like bright lights, loud sounds or even certain textures like baked beans. I literally cannot live a normal life and just do things like eat baked beans in the same way a depressed person can’t just be happy
The only foods I’ve eaten in the past few weeks is bread sometimes I have it with tomato. I am an extremely picky eater and not by choice
Edit: I’m actually curious abt this because I struggle to believe someone doesn’t know what autism is especially on lemmy but would u rather me starve because of a condition that I have no control over?
I know what autism is and I of course don’t want you to starve, I just had no idea what you meant when you said that you couldn’t eat beans because of it.
FWIW I don’t like eating baked beans by themselves, either. Are you okay with beans as an ingredient, like in soup, chili, or burritos?
I don’t like soup or chilli, I haven’t tried burritos. I’d imagine I’d like just the bread bit and with tomatoes but the more ingredients added the less likely I’d be able to eat it. Tbh I don’t like complex foods in general they “confuse” my taste buds if that makes sense. Adding food to mask the flavours and textures of another food is more likely to make me associate the liked food with the disliked food and begin disliking the previously liked one rather than make it tolerable
It’s fine to eat meat you hunted in the wild. If you have the guts to do it, go for it. It’s not fine to have animals rise in awful conditions and then have someone else commit the murder and processing of the dead body, which directly ruins their mental health. You should consider different means of killing though, as I sincerely doubt old type of weapons are good for quick dispatching of an animal, and choosing means which cause unncesessary suffering is wrong.
I also support indigenous communities who farm animals in places they’re native to where normal farming isn’t possible, so they depend on animal protein.
But regular humans living in convinient locations who buy meat from other people? Hell no.
Yea this is basically my current position on meat eating. In the most likely far future I’d probably rather animal farming everywhere to be banned however ud need to ensure the people who depend on it can still eat which could be hard to do in the present for various reasons. Same with hunting I’d prolly rather that be banned and have specialised dieticians for people with sensory issues who would be able to dedicate time to finding a food that works for people rather than the other person having to interrupt their life for it.
I have ADHD which causes me to have sensory issues as well. When I was a child I could only eat highly processed meat. I went vegan at 17, I’m 25 now. There’s still things I literally cannot eat, i.e. oranges, even though I love orange juice, but the orange texture completely closes off my throat and causes me immense anxiety, which neurotypical people will never understand. I hope for you to be able to find another food you can deal with. I was never into meat, because the taste and unprocessed texture also cause same reaction like oranges in me, but the lingering taste also makes me want to puke, so not eating meat is very easy to me. I have similar response to other animal products, where the taste and/or texture, especially the lingering taste, cause extreme disgust in me. I cannot eat some products mimicking them because of this. What “helped me” personally was becoming so poor I was only eating pasta with tomato sauce, which I’d put through a thin-eyed sieve to make it smoother. I still sometimes get overwhelmed by textures of leafy things which cannot be properly broken apart, but that’s why I try to juggle what I eat. I cannot do meal prep where I’d eat the same thing every day, least I get sensory overload. I’m sorry for what you’re going through and for insensitive neurotypical people mocking you for what they didn’t experience and cannot muster sympathy for.
The problem is regardless of how or when you take an animal’s life you’re still taking an animal’s life. You clearly view them as less than human instead of viewing them as having the same right to life as anyone/anything else.
You can and do choose to eat meat when it isn’t required to sustain you.
I wouldn’t mind dying under those circumstances. I’m treating the animal as I’d want to be treated myself. How am I viewing them as sub-human? I personally wouldn’t kill even a consenting human because of laws but I’d rather eat consenting human meat assuming it was safe ans ethically sourced (e.g. not a company that gets you to sign a misleading agreement).
Edit: Infact when I die I want to be thrown in a forest and eaten by animals and absorbed by the ground though I imagine there’s laws preventing this
If they consented, sure. I wouldn’t care abt someone killing me if I consented to the act and method and they didn’t like manipulate into consenting.
Edit: I’d include depressed people as predatory like the way child sex is
Edit 2: I’d also feel emotions for sure but morally it’s better than killing animals because Idk whether the animal consented so I’d push through it because its the better option even if it is harder
Do u normally armchair diagnose people because I’m curious abt whether you’ve thought abt the harmful effects of telling people “you don’t have X, in reality you have Y” although I guess I wouldn’t care abt harming people becsuse I’m a sociopath
So do u just not care abt the harmful effects saying things like that can have? Now these examples didnt happen because I know I’m autistic and not a sociopath theyre also quite extreme but theyre still possible and theyre more likely for people with mental illness which u requested i get checked for.
Say I had taken your message to heart because I didn’t want to accept myself as autistic because of the social stigma around it and decided to stop getting any support at all because it meant I had to accept I was autistic. Would u feel okay abt that?
Say I had taken your message to heart and I really started believing I was a sociopath and went around to different doctors begging them for a sociopath diagnosis until they either give me one or I die. Would u feel okay abt that? Because you just implied you would be
You expect me to feel bad for saying something to you about a worry I have about how you view life while also having posted that you have no issues with legal murder and killing animals? Hmm… maybe you’ve had enough Internet for today.
Yea I have had enough Internet today but I dont have any friends in real life and doing activities doesn’t really take my mind of the loneliness so here I am talking to strangers. Therapy hasn’t helped with this because they can’t magically make friends appear and according to them it’s not anything I’m doing so yea idk I’m not expecting u to feel bad ig I just want someone to talk to but I dont expect u to do that either I honestly dk why I’m typing this cause I don’t expect u to reply after and if u do i doubt it’ll be trying to help me. Anyway bye
Alright look… I’m sorry our discussion got heated. I’m sure you’re doing the best you can just like me. Let’s agree to disagree about the meat stuff and I’m sorry for insinuating you might be a sociopath. That was wrong of me to say. I hope things get better for you.
that’s how I feel about pro choice communities. a lot of mumbling that just serves to justify their murderous tendencies. except murdering a baby is worse than murdering an animal.
Scrolling down half i the comments has give me a true headache. Why do you guys feel the need to explain your consumption to vegans? Not like we have not heard your “arguments” a thousand times before.
Oh wait, you arent trying to justify your actions to us but to yourself?
Reddit has a huge meat propaganda problem. For a second I thought it’s toxic American culture but basically every single American I’ve met, even non-vegan ones, are sympathetic to no-meat movements.
So, I’m sure reddit has been captured by anti vegan astroturf. Every time animal welfare pops up (like vegan food or PETA it’s just filled with the exact same jokes and inaccurate talk points.
I’ve noticed this everytime new social network launches. Tiktok used to be super vegan friendly even by non vegan creators. Now there’s so much shit being spread there are dedicated vegan channels that debunk stuff full time.
I don’t think Lemmy is big enough yet for the propaganda to make it here but loads of people have been brainwashed already.
All those immoral lions relying on killing for their food. Just unnatural and immoral. If humans were meant to eat meat, we’d have teeth specifically adapted for it and digestive systems designed for omnivorous diets. Oh wait…
You’ll have to take that one up with Jonathan Swift. He makes some pretty convincing (obviously satirical) arguments.
Obviously it’s not 1:1 and there are plenty of carnivorous/omnivorous animals you might find less objectionable, but the point is that there has to be some acceptance of nuance on both sides or neither can ever be “right.” The claim that veganism can’t be healthy is obviously BS, but so is the claim that there’s nothing at all that can make meat eating acceptable.
Tbh though, I was scrolling “all” and didn’t notice this was posted to the vegan community. I wouldn’t have interjected just to say this if so, cuz I think going out of your way to be combative on any side of an argument tends to be counterproductive and more about oneself than the actual issue. So my apologies for that, but I stand by the point that there are ethical ways to eat meat that both omnivores and vegans would benefit from recognizing. If its a black and white issue, factory farming is no worse than raising your own livestock sustainably or hunting invasive species for meat. Rather than push people towards better habits, the all or nothing murder argument encourages an acceptance of the status quo by saying “meat is meat and it’s all equally murderous according to vegans, so I might as well go for the cheapest stuff that is easiest to find if I am going to continue eating it.” In any case, this isn’t the place for a two-sided debate as a community by and for only one side of that debate. Zero judgment there, just didn’t mean to start one in that context.
If lions were able to eat predominantly plants and fruits they would do so because it’s easier and requires less energy.
If humans were meant to eat meat, we’d have teeth specifically adapted for it and digestive systems designed for omnivorous diets. Oh wait…
Since we’re the product of evolution we’re not meant to do anything. Evolution is reactive to changing environments. In terms of what our physiology is most suitable for is predominantly hunting and gathering, with a bit of meat from hunting occasionally.
The fact that we have some sharp teeth and can digest meat doesn’t mean that we have to consume the enormous amount of meat that we’re currently eating. The health department of pretty much every Western Country says that its population eats unhealthy amounts of meat.
Because this loser mentality of “it needs killing”. Yeah it’s called the circle of life. I guess we morally shame owls for hunting the mice that hunted the insects. If you want to make a statement on factory farms and torturous methodology, that’s one thing. But death is a part of life, and having meaning in death to provide nutrition for continuation of life is just a reality.
death is a part of life, and having meaning in death to provide nutrition for continuation of life is just a reality.
You’re missing something pretty important here. Death is part of life is an argument that you’d use to try and justify hunting. Farming also means breeding more animals that will be raised for their meat and killed after a few years.
Globally, 60% of all large mammals are livestock. It’s a crazy number and there is nothing natural about this. The killing isn’t the root problem, producing/breeding huge numbers of animals is.
Death might be a natural part of the circle of life, but we’re artificially starting this circle for many farm animals. If we’d stop doing this at such an insane scale, we wouldn’t need to discuss their death (or quality of life)
Importantly, this is something that we choose to do even though we don’t have to. The owl has to hunt for mice and isn’t able to choose not to. This makes our moral position not comparable to owls or any other animal.
This makes it easy to argument against and if arguments start, information is lost. Someone could say crop death, eating more vegan food than absolutely necessary to survive.
Vegan candy, tasty but all the crop death. I’d recommend simple arguments like, I love animals and only want to hurt them as little as reasonably possible.
It’s not as flashy as “the least amount of harm possible” I know, but it’s at least the Truth. I think the difference between a vegan and others is only the level of harm they’re willing to cause. But then again it was always like that. You’re just lower than others in that animal-harm spectrum and not the absolute bottom. But still a lot lower.
Eating cats and dogs is controversial. So is eating sharks or whale. Some diets are unnecessarily harmful. Since we all live on the same planet, that affects others and it makes sense to have an opinion on this.
Outside of the US, it’s not controversial to say the average meat intake in the US is too high: for health reasons and for the environment. I think it’s okay to judge people when they eat abnormal amounts of meat.
I find it kind of funny that you’re sitting there and arbitrarily deciding the rights of different species based on what brain you think they have. The truth is, at this point in time, no one knows to an exact science how any species thinks, or feels for that matter regarding pain, and so the idea that you’re taking a scientific approach here should be met with skepticism at best.
I don’t really understand what’s so hard to understand about “cause no animal harm”. The act of segregating species and giving different ones different rights because you maybe feel like eating insects isn’t any different to why people aren’t vegan today. I mean look at how religion justifies eating fish when no other meat should be eaten for example.
My god, your post history is fucking tragic. I’m not going to engage with you, you sad sorry little man all im going do is block you. So take your weird right wing troll bullshit to twitter or truth social or even reddit. Because just like every other aspect of your life, the people here don’t want you around because you gleefully make everything worse for everyone else.
Humans are capable of eating an extremely broad variety of plants. Vegetarian diet is perfectly healthy for people. Vegan diet has only a few problems, which have already been solved. You can be vegan and live a very healthy life, but you have to supplement a few necessary nutrients. Meat has never been off the menu. It is possible to chose not to eat it, if you prefer that.
It’s not about getting cancelled or politics, it’s about living up to the ideal that humans are actually better than that, that we can feel empathy and sadness for other creatures suffering, and it’s in our power to do something about it.
As someone who regularly works with registered dietitians in clinical settings, some of which hold PhDs, please stop spreading misinformation from a place of hate and prejudice.
They posted peer-reviewed papers from medical nutrition research groups, what exactly would be these researchers incentive for pushing misinformation about diets?
Dude, just do us all a favour and go back to twitter. You’re like the drunk homeless guy at the bar that brings the mood down for everyone else. And I get that you’re the kind of person that enjoys ruining things for other people, but can you just not? Just go outside or do something productive with your life instead?
Racialising penises is some fucking pathetic shit. Men who are confident in their masculinity don’t need to tie it or their penis to notions of race. They love their penises (or lack thereof) no matter what their colour, because masculinity comes from within, and it is embodied by strength of independent will. Whether you abandon your own strength and rest your masculinity on the social construct of supremacy, or think that another man’s race can overshadow your own independent manhood, you are pathetic, and unworthy to call yourself a man. The only identity you have succeeded in embodying is cowardice.
m8 just cause you Work with them. doesn’t make you a dietician and registered dieticians are jokes. there is no PHD for telling people how to diet and if there is, holy christ. i spent all my time and money on a computer science masters and legal bachelors for no fucking reason then…get out.
I’ve done both vegan and keto for over a year at some point during my life and what I will say is that I naturally cover my nutrition bases through preferences and desires, while vegan though I had to hunt down (forgive the pun) b12 and complete proteins combinations a little more diligently to cover my nutrition needs.
Or put differently, I think it’s easier to mess up a vegan diet than a keto one.
I think it’s easier to mess up a vegan diet than a keto one.
People often worry more about vegan diets than other diets. But somehow people’s concerns aren’t proportional to the risk of messing up your nutrition needs.
It’s not about health risks; it’s more about their personal feelings. Most people don’t like that animals are killed for food, but giving up tasty meat and cheese is tough. Instead of supporting vegans, they question them. This might be because admitting they eat meat just for its taste feels wrong. So, they deflect by questioning veganism. It’d be great if there were more understanding and supportive and less defensiveness about food choices.
I’d be nice to occasionally hear “Good for you! I’m happy that you make choices that are in line with your values!” But alas, most responses tend to be “But aren’t you barely allowed to eat anything now!?”
So much time and effort online and on TV is expended arguing against eating plant based food. It’s hard not to see through this.
Vegans should honestly just take a B12 pill. B12 is naturally produced by bacteria, but most good natural sources amount to using an animal gut as a fermenter. Pills just cut out the middleman and use an industrial fermenter rather than one that moos.
You could eat dirt or drink unclean water instead, but the pills are cheap, easy and natural.
Protein combining is an old myth. You don’t need to eat a complete protein at each meal. It’s fine if they average out to be complete over the course of a day or two, which is quite easy. If you have a sandwich for lunch and lentil soup over cauliflower rice for dinner you’ve eaten a complete protein.
9 of them are “essential” because your body can’t make them from other amino acids.
Protein is complete when it has enough of all of the essential amino acids. It’s incomplete when it’s missing at least one of them.
Rice, for example, doesn’t quite have enough lysine in it. If you live on only rice, you’ll eventually run into a lysine deficiency. Chickpeas, though, have plenty of lysine but not enough methionine.
Rice and chickpeas individually are incomplete. A bowl of chickpeas and rice is complete, though.
The problem with this, like I said, is that if you have cucumber sushi for lunch and falafel dipped in hummus for dinner it’ll average out to be complete. Almost no one has to actually care about this, it’s really just an interesting factoid.
I remember now that you say it, that the body cannot create all proteins we need. Makes sense to call it “complete” when your diet includes all the amino acids that you need.
Many people start with the troll. it’s nothing most vegans have not dealt with a lot.
the best part is though, the troll gets exposed to the arguments for being vegan. there is probably a reason why they are so concerned with belittling and debasing.
Long story short, they often convert. Keep trolling bro.
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