Dealers: We inflated the ever living shit out of the ALREADY inflated MSRP on all our EV’s during a global recession and now no one wants to buy any of them!!
Manufacturer: The customers have spoken, EV’s are dead.
Yearly income is less than 70k for most Europeans. In Denmark the average income is higher, but the rest of Europe is lower, average would probably be less than 40k.
Why does every new ev for the US have to be mega deluxe luxury SUV? No one in the US is buying your affordable EV because you only sell them in Europe!
Yeah, a surprising number of people don’t want these hyper complex cars with thousands of microchips and millions of lines of code operating them. Give me an electric 2012 Honda fit/Toyota matrix equivalent that just fucking works and costs $20k or less new.
I’m just refusing to buy a car newer than 2008. Really an arbitrary cutoff, but that seems to be about when every car started to get as many electronics into them as possible.
Yeah, I don’t care about color changing LEDs in the trim or talking computers, just give me a cheap android-auto-compatible head unit (replaceable please, none of that integrated bullshit), a cheap instrument cluster and a real handbrake.
It’s the batteries. They are the biggest cost in an EV. The margins on such a car would be too low. Even the new Volvo XC30 is 35k plus which is one of the cheapest and most barebones EV.
Good luck finding enough batteries for that many cars. That’s the entire problem right now. They can’t scale the production to the point that will make the production of econobox EVs reasonably profitable. Because the worldwide production capacity of lithium batteries is lagging behind the demand right now. Also why the cost of the batteries are high.
An EV at that price was always unrealistic the battery is 75% that cost. But an ICE under 20 is easy. People just want nicer shit when they see the vehicles or have to head to Mitsubishi.
Everyone’s super obsessed with 300-400 mi ranges though. 100mi would be totally fine for most people and would require a small fraction of the battery (bigger batteries give decreasing returns)
Until it’s not, and then it’s an expensive pain. I travel 500 + 700 miles three times a year and renting a car for a week isn’t viable. There are enough edge cases just like that for most people.
Nobody wants to stop for 25 minutes (if you are lucky and don’t have to wait in queue) on their longer trips.
The actual solution you agree looking for is PHEV. That’s the middle ground that’s perfect for most individuals.
The phev f150 is the most functional auto/tool for travel and work I’ve ever seen.
There’s no margins there. Just like in real estate, the best margins are at the high end. They won’t make affordable cars while they can make more money on expensive ones.
Because people are buying all the mid- and high-end EVs. If it's more profitable, there's some sense to it until that saturates (although it sounds like that's finally happening maybe)
GM tried real hard for the lower-end. And cars like the Bolt EUV ended up actually really good especially for the price. Then they cancelled it because they just weren't making enough money or volume or scaling like they wanted.
And at the moment ALL the carmakers have gone kinda nuts with pricing. And sales are still super strong overall. Just...softening. Apparently especially for EVs.
Also, people are paying way, way too much for cars. It's insane how many people making $60,000 a year or less are buying cars worth almost that much, and taking out these ridiculous loans. I guess the interest rate hikes are putting a little damper on it, but it's been just stupid.
The Bolt EUV is the only reason we have an electric car now (personally, I would have gotten the smaller and cheaper Bolt but it was a family decision to go with the EUV). It was reasonable for what you get. The only downside is the slower charging compared to other EVs but I don’t plan on taking it for longer trips. We have an ICE for that.
I currently lease a 2 years old Renault Zoe (very compact car) for 200€ a month (0€ upfront). It was a special deal in Germany for a few months. I charge at home with solar panels and rarely drive more than the 300-350km range.
It honestly feels like the holy grail of electro mobility.
And if you had an ICE car you would be spending around that 200 just on fuel, as it is with both my kids and their baby EVs, its like having a free car.
I went for a hoon in a BYD the other day, it was awesome fun. Not the dolphin, the other A*.* one that’s everywhere.
I believe they’re a cheap EV but it has all the bells and whistles, goes like the clappers, can do cool stuff like start the AC remotely so by the time you walk from work to your carpark it’s nice and comfortable, gets 450ish on a charge and can be topped up overnight on a standard power point for most people’s commute.
I’m so keen to own an EV, all I need is a justification… Right now I have a work vehicle that carries a tonne (literally) at all times which makes an EV less appealing.
Electric cars make zero sense for the less well off. No one wants to go and sit some where for 45 minutes for 80% of a charge when they can go tonangas station and fully gas up a car in less than Five minutes. Also that is if there isn’t a line to one of the few public charging. Imagine working a shit job for 40k a year and then having to go and sit and wait for wven an hour to get to charge your car that then takes an hour to charge it self
Imagine working 40 hours a week and having to breathe gas fumes while you bike to work because your homeowners insurance doubled and now you can’t afford your ICE car.
No one thinks the transition to electric will be fun but it’s necessary because we waited 30 years to even acknowledge climate change. If you want to drive an ICE, you should have to pay for the destruction you’re causing so we can subsidize public transport. But failing that, EVs are the bare minimum.
I guess you are walking around with your phone until it dies, charge it for 5mins and then repeat? … or do you just plug it in over night or when you are not using it? That’s really not a good point you are bringing up here. You could critisize, that there are only few public charging stations (with user friendly terms) or what the comment you answered to is critisizing or even that there are so few alternatives for (really) climate friendly transport, but your point is just ‘what if I am not able to think at all??’
If you own your own home with off street parking, this is established and known technology. Still kind of expensive, but for example, I just got a new circuit for a charger, for less than a new circuit for an induction range.
The place we need to put the most effort into is rental places or HOAs with off street parking. We have the technology, we know how to do it, but there’s a mismatch between who pays and who benefits. It’s a people problem. If the landlord/HOA pays, how can we help them see the benefit so they’ll be willing to? Eventually this will solve itself when EVs become popular enough that people will be unwilling to rent or live there, but now it’s an obstacle. A purely human obstacle
The less well of typically do bot own thier own homes.
More to the point people who rent in apartment complexes or own condos can’t just have a new breaker put in at thier condo or apartment complex. Some places have large parking lots and would require a lot of work to wire all the spaces woth thier own chargers. Also while it’s simple for you to get a 240v breaker put into your electrical box, what about an apartment complex that has a 100 cars ? It can require expensive work to support that much power drain and most people will commute during the day. That means all the load will happen after 6pm and before 9am.
Also in the mean time what do you do of you don’t own your own home? Buy an ev and hope the complex you are renting at will put in a charger or two ? What about all the hoa fighting adding chargers and so on.
Why does every new ev for the US have to be mega deluxe luxury SUV?
Because car manufacturers don't give two shits what people need, nor what's best for the environment, they're in the profit making business, and that's all that matters.
We're at the point now where this shouldn't need to be pointed out, the fact it does goes to show just how successful (from their viewpoint of course) their propaganda is..
At the root of this issue is dealership exclusivity. Otherwise new companies would make them cheaper sell them privately and dominate that market. Tesla did some of this but still wanted to be premium. We need generic Tesla to come out, and the other EV companies are obsessed with premium.
While it's a factor it probably isn't the root of the problem. The problem is car manufacturers are building the cars faster than the market is growing and at high price points than consumers want in a time of economic difficulty and inflation.
We're still seeing build out of electric infrastructure, expensive cars vs petrol cars, and a relatively small second hand market (which also drives infrastructure expansion). It also doesn't help that countries are pushing back promises to ban non-EV car sales. Dealership monopolies certainly exacerbate all those problems.
This story headline is nonsense though. EVs are working and are growing. The story is actually that car companies have made expensive attempts at grabbing market share which haven't worked and are now counting the costs. They're delaying the rate of growth in production, not reducing production - significant difference.
The problem is charging. Wven if you being out entry level ev chars people want. Where will people who don’t own a home charge them ?
Imagine working a 9 hour shift plus your commute and then having to drive out of your way for a public charging place. Then wait 45mins + for an 80% charge. Then imagine the few charging spots at the location being full so you have to wait even longer to charge it
I think the pricing is actually fine for the cars because people who are going to actually buy an ev would be shopping for an ice car in the same proce range. Those who would buy a lower price range would face way more hurdles while owning an ev
I have a buddy who does this and it’s not as bad as you make it seem. Once a week or so, he goes to a supercharger for an hour or so to top off. Obviously it all depends on your daily usage and the range of the vehicle but it’s just not this huge personal tragedy people describe it as. It’s a minor hassle to sit around for an hour once a week
It’s an hour I would have had to spend doing anything else though, and with limited time already I’d rather not spend an hour sat doing nothing waiting for my car to charge.
Yeah, but that totally makes sense if no one is buying. It’s just, that no one is buying, because automakers aren’t really interested in EVs, since gas powered have bigger margins, meaning initial manufacturing cost is lower, so they can jack the prices. When they do it with EVs it’s getting very ridiculous very fast.
Well, the majority of Swiss people drives overpriced SUVs anyway… so I guess the margins are pretty good And people here see the saving potential if you use less than 0.35 CHF/kWh 🔋 power compared the often more than 2.0 CHF/L ⛽️ power 1L of ⛽️ has about 10kWh but energy going to the street is way less compared to EV
I hate the SUV trend as a whole, but especially in EVs it’s just so non-sensical. Trying to build more resourceconsious vehicles, but at the same time building them twice as big and heavy as they need to be, while trying to achieve range …
It’s an expensive problem to solve. Charging stations aren’t cheap nor is getting an electrician to come out and run wiring and panels for a hundred cars even if it’s just 120 then it eill take 8-12 hours for each car to charge.
I’ve lived in some places that have giant parking lots for the cars which means they have to dig it up to run wiring and create stations at each spot. That can reduce the amount of cars that can be parked which in some places would benillegal
Slow charging speeds at home/work are fine, nobody is burning 100% of their range daily on their commute. The people with 200 mile daily commutes are not buying EVs
I’ve spent time in the Midwest and most residential parking lots already have outlets all over the place for block hearers in the winter. If a tiny apartment complex in North Dakota can do it, so can everyone else.
No one said they couldn’t do it. It’s just that it isn’t done…so what happens when you buy an ev and move some where woth no charging ? I am in north jersey and I haven’t see a complex here condo or apartment that has outlets anywhere in the parking lot
Even still , unless they are 240v welcome to 2-3 miles per hour charging rate on a ev. Hope you don’t plan on traveling far.
I love these crazy comparisons you people make. Nobody gives a fuck if they have to stop 2 minutes to refuel. 5 minutes if there is a line. Nobody wants to take an hour long wait for a charge port.
It’s like none of you have ever traveled for the holidays.
Bullshit. They make expensive electric cars because thats where the money was. Here in the eu tons of people want to drive electric, but at the prices they offer in this economy, they’ll only reach the wealthy.
The only reason these “c level” directors and managers are coming out and saying this is because the easy money is gone and now they really have to innovate. Which is expensive.
Poor people also can’t afford to buy brand new vehicles, so this is kind of a moot point, though something that will need to be addressed in the coming years.
Well I’m using the same designation of ‘poor’ as you were in the above comment. I’d say those with leased vehicles would definitely not fall into the category of poor.
Lots of people lease cars that they can’t afford and are basicly car poor. I was house poor when we bought our first house. Lots of low cost meals like pasta and bologna sandwiches so we could make payments while buying furniture and making repairs
In the usa the poor don’t really have anywhere to charge these cars even if they were cheap enough to afford.
You mean to tell me “the poor” don’t have access to electricity? How poor are we talking exactly? Because I’m thinking enough money to spend, say, $30k on a brand new car… which is still pretty well off.
I mean sure, if you live in a cheap inner city apartment, then you might not have a garage to park/charge in. But I bet a lot of people in that situation have access to public transit anyway - they’re not really the target market for cars in general.
It is impossible to compete with a less than five minute fill up for 300+ miles range.
Most people charge their EV overnight. It’d be even better to charge during the day though, when electricity (can be) cheaper thanks to solar power.
Not to mention that reports place charging on public charges to be more costly than gas.
Yeah you’re going to have to share a source for that. Sounds hard to believe.
In the UK, public fast chargers are mostly around the 80p/kwh Mark. With a decently light foot and getting 4 miles per kwh, that’s 20p a mile. With gas at £1.55 a litre, and a 60mpg (UK) hybrid, that’s about 12p a mile.
Home charging an ev on an appropriate tariff costs about 7p/kwh, or about 1.75p per mile.
Its normally only the very fastest chargers that are around 80p, but then there are alternative options that are cheaper if you want ultra high speed and not get robbed blind, such as Tesla that is almost half what Instavolt charge.
People who are barely making ends meet don’t usually buy new cars. They buy used. You can get something tolerable for a hell of a lot less than 30k.
Plus, if you’re poor, there’s a good chance you live in a shitty (maybe unsafe) neighborhood. You might not have a driveway, never mind a garage. If you leave your car to charge overnight, you have to worry about some asshole unplugging it, or even taking/vandalizing the extension cord.
The problem is that small cars are unpopular in the US, they are available in Europe but the majority would not buy them in the US. Once you make the car bigger it gets heavier and you need more battery to give it the same range as a small car, and as the battery is one of the most expensive components on an EV its going to boost the price quite dramatically.
Europe has brand new EVs from £8k, but they are tiny city cars. Small hatchbacks are low £20ks now, and with the way finance works in Western Europe the monthly is not that much, starting at low £200 per month. Its not till you get to what would be a very large SUV in Europe do you start to get to the £1k+ mark per month, or what the US would call a mid sized SUV. That’s the penalty of demanding a 2.5 to 3 ton EV.
Used you can pick up small hatchbacks from £5k now, but there just isn’t the availability of large cars (or US mid sized) to make the used market viable for those on smaller budgets.
If they would sell in decent numbers they would sell them as the manufacturer makes the most on new and nearly new cars that are still being sold/serviced by a main dealer, this is also capitalism.
Once a cheap (ish) car hits a certain age the manufacturer makes diminishing amounts. In Europe they would rather sell you a brand new small car than you buy a used bigger car they will not make anywhere near a much on.
If Musk delivers on the Model 2 for the US market then I think we will see some real movement in the US, but till then things like the VW Golf just do not sell. I think they sold 2.5m Golfs in total in the US, UK has around a million still on the road, a country with about 20% of the population.
Nah dude, I’m seeing the same shit here in EU. they are not selling the small cars, like you cannot buy stuff that is supposedly on the catalogue. But you can finance this 3ton monstrosity that costs double of what you’re looking for easy peasy.
Somebody has one of those near me, its not actually that big, plus not all Yaris come as the crossover, at least in the UK. The crossover is 4.1m long and about 1.7m wide, its only 15cm longer and about 10cm wider than the standard Yaris, and again, optional.
If you want properly small then get a Citroen Ami. Otherwise the Fiat 500e is about 3.5m long and 1.5m wide, this is the same as its always been, this is still noticeably smaller than a Golf mark 1 from the 70s.
People have always hated small cars. They suck ass for families and I’m not sure where everyone forgot that. People did choose small cars, it’s what they could afford. Then for the last 7 years you could get basically free financing and it was suddenly affordable.
The Honda Accord, the most popular sedan of the sentry is only 4 inches shorter in 95 than my 21 outback. 188 vs 191.5 inches.
Its not till you get to what would be a very large SUV in Europe do you start to get to the £1k+ mark per month, or what the US would call a mid sized SUV
Driving a Mercedes EQB and paying ~£600 per month, due to banks here in Denmark making low interest car loans on EVs.
UK is particularly fucked at the moment for car loan pricing since Liz Truss massively accelerated interest rate rises they have become noticeably more expensive.
Typical misleading headline from pro-profiteering Business Insider on an article about how charging too much while people are suffering extreme inflation isn’t a great idea but the self-serving execs are blaming the very concept of an alternative to killing millions of people a year 🤬
It still hasn’t been ordered, because the manufacturer won’t permit the dealership to order any, and is barely shipping any to Canada, even though they advertise it as their flagship EV.
Meanwhile, lots in the US are full of unsold units.
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