I just received my invite code today and took a quick look around the app. Like Mastodon I do not prefer microblogging platforms. And that’s all I know about Bluesky.
i joined beehaw and bluesky in the same week. i think it’s fun! lots of artists and indie game devs on there. i didn’t use twitter and don’t really like mastodon, so i don’t have any point of comparison. seems to me that moderation is lacking and/or apathetic. there’s been a heavy focus on US political issues. there’s a lot of stuff that i don’t want to see, but i mute often and that has improved my browsing experience. it’s been more friendly and welcoming than pretty much any other social media site i’ve tried so far. i also do not prefer microblogging platforms, but i’ve been having such a hard time with hateful comments across various platforms in the past few months, bluesky has been refreshing for me in that sense.
There was a mass migration of furries to Bluesky recently, they now have a sizable presence there. Enough so to make you wonder if that’s what it’s intended for, unless you just stick to the “For You” or "Discover* feed.
I’m sure Jack Dorsey had this envisioned the whole time
A few podcasts I listen to have switched to calling their bluesky handles out instead of their twitter handles in their outros. I’ll probably install it and delete ex/twitter when I get an invite.
They’re not cryptocurrency fanatics. None of the project relies on cryptocurrency tech. Even Jack himself deleted his account and ran off to nostr.
Bluesky uses a model with user identities based on cryptographic keypairs, posts held in a personal account repository (git-like), and posts use content addressing (hash ID of posts), and everything is portable so you can move your account between host servers without breaking any references.
Federation is up in the sandbox environment with 3rd party implementations participating.
It’s more robust against enshittification than your average Mastodon server
First of all, “enshittification” refers to monopolistic business practices, not… account portability or whatever you’re trying to say. It can’t be engineered away. Mastodon (the company) is nonprofit, BlueSky is for-profit. Furthermore, unlike Mastodon, there is no functional difference between BS servers, so the “freedom” to change is a moot point when bluesky (the company) controls everything.
Also the CEO cut her fintech teeth on cryptocurrency. Saying she’s not a fan of crypto is just plain wrong.
I’ve already explained how they have designed it so they can’t control it. Just use web-DID and your own domain handle on your own PDS, and then you can connect to a 3rd party relay (BGS, the CDN like cache) and whichever feeds and moderation tools and filter subscriptions you like. You don’t need to touch the official servers at all.
The network doesn’t use any cryptocurrency technology. There’s no blockchain, etc.
It’s more robust against enshittification than your average Mastodon server
I’m very skeptical of that. What makes Mastodon so robust against enshittification is that it’s hard for a single or small set of players to have so much control that they can act as gatekeeper to extract money from the user base.
Blue Sky is a for-profit corporation. How do they plan to make money? Who controls access to the network? These are genuine questions.
Blue Sky is a for-profit corporation. How do they plan to make money?
🤷
They use domain names for handles, they do have a partnership with one registrar for integration for users who want custom domains for handles (commission model). Other than that, to be seen.
Who controls access to the network?
Once full federation is live, nobody. Anybody could create a relay server (BGS, shared cache server like a CDN), and anybody can run a PDS (account hosting server).
3rd parties already run feeds on their own servers and 3rd party clients exists, and the sandbox network for federation testing has 3rd party PDS servers too.
For user account lookups, if you use the web-DID type then you’re not dependent on bluesky servers at all.
Account portability and the ability to mix and match services and switch quickly are the biggest enshittification protection mechanisms. You can’t really lock in users in this model. You can’t even prevent users from ditching your PDS account host if they kept a backup of their data and held their own keys.
@Natanael enshittification is about power, and ATproto is designed to look decentralized but enable secondary centralization where it matters for power dynamics in the network, in a way that the Fediverse very much doesn't: https://rys.io/en/167.html
(shameless plug, I wrote that, but it dives somewhat deep into the "why" of what I said above)
tl;dr it doesn't matter which PDS you use if everyone is still beholden to the same entity that controls the "reach" layer in BS.
The Mastodon fediverse have stronger network effects because big servers can enforce policies on other servers to stay federated. It’s complicated for users to move servers.
In Bluesky you have plenty more options, including using 3rd party moderation, using clients which can pull censored posts from other servers and cleanly render them into threads, and you can move servers much more easily even if the server operator don’t want to let you.
The “reach” layer is a mix of relay servers (BGS) and 3rd party feeds (which already are operated independently)
> The Mastodon fediverse have stronger network effects because big servers can enforce policies on other servers to stay federated. It’s complicated for users to move servers.
Well, I wrote about this as well, so I think I might not be missing these details: https://rys.io/en/168.html
In bluesky I think those effects mostly lie on the side of which client people use.
The protocol is extensible and you can add new post types and formatting options by creating a new schema/lexicon, but these would only be readable by other clients which supports it. I hope they’ll be able to add some general “category template” lexicons so a graceful degradation scheme can be implemented to support compatibility without hindering 3rd party development.
To protect against a PDS server going bad the client could assist with automated account migration (the new PDS doesn’t need to understand the lexicon of your posts to be able to migrate them intact), even if the old PDS won’t cooperate (the client could maintain backups for you to make migration quick). But if you don’t control your keys separately then a bad client update could make your account unrecoverable, similarly to a mastodon server going bad.
@Natanael you seem to continue to focus on PDSes even though I explicitly said it doesn't matter which PDS you're on, the secondary centralization (and thus control) happens in the "reach" layer, outside of what PDSes do in ATproto.
In other words, changing a PDS gives you way, way less agency in BS, compared to agency you get with changing an instance on Fedi.
BS is designed to make that secondary centralization happen, and to be where the real power in the system is.
I don’t see how that’s a negative, all the choices attached to Mastodon hosts are distributed to multiple services in bluesky which optionally could be served by the same entity, but doesn’t need to be. A PDS can run its own moderation services, or subscribe to another, or leave it to clients. A PDS can run their own feeds, or leave it to others. Clients can choose to use the services provided by the PDS, or to use others.
I don’t see where the centralizing forces are (other than economy of scale stuff). Having the most users doesn’t mean much when it’s trivial to substitute your service, regardless if that’s a moderation labeler service, a collection of feeds, or whatever else. It’s really just the most popular client apps which have disproportionate power, but that’s true for every protocol.
Edit: I also want to point out that the PDS by default controls a bunch of stuff for the client via the appview service, that’s the service which the client talks to and it assembles your home feed and assemble post views (where it control sorting, etc) and it apply blocks and mutes and applies the PDS’s own moderation, and it forwards moderation labels on posts (like NSFW tags) to the client.
Thank you for the response. Alas, the monetization question is key to enshittification. I’m left unassuaged.
Let’s take a concrete example. There are a bunch of neo-nazis inciting real violence on Blue Sky. People will die. Does anyone have the power to do anything about them? Or can the neo-nazis " mix and match services and switch quickly" to escape any consequences? It’s a dilemma either way. On one fork, BS has no control, which means bad actors run free. On the other fork, BS does have control, which suggests they’re not as enshittification resistant as it may seem.
I know and am happy with how Activity Pub (Lemmy/Mastodon) deals with both forks, as imperfect as the system is. What about Blue Sky?
Yeah, with no strong central control the best you can do is to persuade PDS account servers and client developers to put in good moderation filters by default, so that the average user won’t have to see that stuff assuming they land on a client/server which filter it. You can’t stop it from existing in the network, but you can coordinate ways to inhibit reach. And users who need even better tools can deploy them without having to move.
On the other hand, the work on private profiles haven’t started yet, and you can’t currently prevent yourself from getting visible to others.
On Mastodon the options are essentially just finding a server with a good moderation team and importing block list files manually, as well as keyword filters. And that’s pretty much it. The server features and moderation quality are part of the same bundle.
@pixelpop3@admin happy to send you an invite if you want one. Especially if it helps you leave the bird site. DM me
The fediverse is way better. Interesting to check out what people are building... at least a bit. I find myself wanting to come back here way more than any of the other options.
A twitter replacement made by one of Twitter’s founders that completely missed its shot to be relevant by not releasing during the early chaos of the muskrat’s rein. And then when they finally did release, it was iPhone only, so everyone shrugged and ignored it.
It’s alright, just basically Twitter 2. It’s useful for some things. A lot of creatives chose to migrate there, which is nice so that I can network with fellow Twitch streamers and keep up with news on the platform. As much as I like Mastodon, I just wasn’t getting that there. It’s also nice that a bunch of artists I used to follow are there.
All I know about Bluesky is what’s in the name. When you look at the Fediverse tree, every branch, leaves, and roots are labelled. But the sky isnt. Bluesky. I believe the intent is to be bigger and far more important than the Fediverse, smother it rather than let it grow. Jack is a businessman, after all. He really liked having a hugely important platform in Twitter and how much political power it was beginning to have.
A lot of people here are being cynical about it, and to be fair I totally get being suspicious of corporate platforms, but these places are at least half as much about the userbase than they are about the owners. So far it seems to be a much more chill place even compared to Lemmy. People there talk much more about things they are passionate about than having endless toxic arguments, and the general atmosphere there seems pretty open to diversity, as far as I see.
But if you don't care for microblogging I don't think that will change your mind.
Ugh so true. I frequently describe Mastodon as “community-led nonprofit” to help get it through to the people who think Threads or BlueSky will be different.
It depends what you’re using it for. If you want to old school mid to late 00s twitter that was just random anonymous people microblogging random thoughts and sharing links and pics then you’ll be happy to be back home.
If you followed twitter because it was a way to get direct contact and access to industry professionals, celebrities, reporters, breaking news, specific niche communities that just dont exist or barely do on mastodon, then you will be unhappy with it. Mastodon will get you uh, George Takei, Zach Weiner, and the technologyconnections guy.
For example of the difference and why many people just dont care for jumping into mastodon I’ll use My wrestling feed as an example. On mastodon it is mostly one guy who’s enthusiastic about womens wrestling(seriously if he stopped my feed would die), one news reposting site(which honestly isnt a bad thing cause wrestling news is awful), and a handful of other people. Twitter has lots of memes and clips from the fans after episodes air, lots of links to primary sources and news sites, and the actual wrestlers interacting cutting kayfabe online promos, promoting themselves, and interacting with fans.
This applies to a number of niches, hobbies, and fan interests on twitter. Bigger isnt necessarily better but the size and adoption of twitter is a huge strength.
i like bluesky a bit more because of the interface - it’s twitter without the anti trans harassment (so far) or elon. plus it’s where most of my romance book community ended up.
i do like the trans community on mastodon a bit more though, even though i think the mastodon interface is a bit lagging. and it wins in interface over threads but it loses in terms of the fact that threads got more of the mainstream users that i follow.
i like the ability to use your own domain name as a handle though. i wish threads and mastodon would take it.
and the lists feature on bluesky is fantastic. i still use all three though and i hate elon for making it so i have to now that he’s just made social media so fractured
It’s just Twitter run by the old CEO. There’s some promises that it’s going to be decentralized at some point, but no real motion towards that yet AFAIK. Anyone on the Fediverse should just pick Firefish or Mastodon over it.
I’d love to try it, if they’d ever give me an invite code. Twitter was pretty cool back in the day and I’d like something similar as a place to post what I’m working on.
Every Mastodon client I have tried to use is way too confusing. There are plenty of people using it, but it feels like a wasteland because connecting with people is too high friction. Maybe I’m using it wrong /:
I hear good things about the Mona app on iOS. Also consider the official app. On Android, the official app is good but is active in an enhanced version called Megalodon, which is what I use. All those I listed should be user friendly.
@vanderbilt try out Kbin, it integrates communities and microblogging under one web interface. Makes it easy to access Mastodon posts as well as threads like this one on Lemmy or native to Kbin. I am on Kbin.Run, which is pretty well run but less populated than kbin.social
Cool :) might take a while until you receive your own invites. Took me 3 weeks. It’s still kinda quiet but most of the people I had in my community on Twitter dropped mastodon for bluesky so I am sticking with it I guess.
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