You know, Robin Williams was the reason that I started doing stand-up comedy? My personal hero. Knowing that he did this for Neelix, especially when he was getting a lot of hate? Robin is a saint. Also just a small thing because I wanted to honor the man…
Adam Savage has a very similar story meeting Robin Williams on the set of Bicentennial Man and getting a essentially a private show from him for a few minutes. Robin Williams was an amazing human being, flaws and all.
I have a very dark sense of humor, and no problem making light of suicide. If that was meant to be a joke, it wasn’t a good one. It came off more as a dark insult than anything.
I don’t doubt there is a solid joke in there. But it needs work.
You’re using human standards and forcing them on an alien species. Two alien species actually. Kes started dating at 2, sure, but she also has an average life expectancy of 10. Meaning, in human terms, she started dating when she was 20-25. If anything she was late to the party.
That only means that Kes should probably not have a relationship with anyone from a longer lifespan species.
The same way a 200 year old Vulcan would look at a 20 year old human as an immature kid. Hell, I look at a 20 year old human as immature and I'm just in my thirties!
Biological maturity does not equal getting the life experience of an adult. Not enough life experience means more naive and easier to manipulate, even if the older being doesn't want to.
Hell, I look at a 20 year old human as immature and I’m just in my thirties!
Biological maturity does not equal getting the life experience of an adult. Not enough life experience means more naive and easier to manipulate, even if the older being doesn’t want to.
That’s some shit and you should judge people by their character instead of their age. I’ve known people in their fifties and sixties who were less mature than other people I’ve known in their twenties, and we’re not dealing with developmental issues here.
Some people have gone through way too much shit by the time they hit twenty and have moved well past being “naive and easy to manipulate”. I say this having been one and married another.
Maybe the real “immature kid” is the one making ageist judgements on people who really aren’t that much younger than they are.
It’s still weird in the context of humans made the show Star Trek. I actually like Neelix and Voyager but it was still a little weird. It felt like those times the writers want to inject their fetish into the script, or like in anime there will be a 10,000 year old vampire who looks 9.
Neelix tells Seven that he was around the planet for about a year before Voyager shows up. Kes wasn't even 2 at that point. He explicitly states that he and Kes were "getting close" during that year. At most, Kes was maybe 7 months old when she met Neelix. And he pursued a relationship, with a whole lot of jealously involved, in that year. In human terms, she was likely about 13 or 14 year old...maybe younger.
No. It is not even remotely a perfectly fair complaint and it has already been explained why.
You are using human standards and forcing them upon two aliens. The age that Kes and Neelix met and started to get to know one another are utterly irrelevant without information about Ocampan maturity rates.
Moreover, you are forcing human values on an alien relationship. For all you know the Ocampans are perfectly fine with relationships that young. That information was never fully elaborated on so any complaints about the age gap are functionally worthless because you don’t have the factual framework to build off of, only human comparison. As we’ve seen numerous times in Trek, human values are not universal.
Human or not, engaging in a relationship with someone that hasn't fully matured let alone reached age of procreation is a little creepy. We know enough about Ocampans to know they don't reach maturity by 6 months old, or even 1 year old. This should not be normalized...
Human or not, engaging in a relationship with someone that hasn’t fully matured let alone reached age of procreation is a little creepy.
For the third time, you are using human standards and forcing them upon two aliens. Your reaction is unfair. You are judging aliens by human standards. Human standards are not universal in the Star Trek universe. What humans think here is utterly irrelevant. Moreover, we know nothing about the Ocampan physiology to say she wasn’t mature at this point. Even if she wasn’t, that’s her decision as well as the decision of Neelix. She was an adult by Ocampan standards. I’m not using the standards of a human from earth in 2023 to judge an alien in the 2300s on the opposite end of the galaxy.
The real question should be why are you so offended by this entire idea of recognizing inappropriate relationships regardless of whether humans are involved or not? Yes, these are aliens. Yes, I'm applying human standards to aliens. That's what all of these TV shows are, allegories to human situations. The entire reason we have forums like this is to talk about these human situations.
You can upset and run away all you want. All it does is kill the conversation, which I guess is what you wanted anyways. But it still doesn't change the fact that this is humans writing stories about aliens, not actual aliens. Applying human standards is not a bad thing.
Edit: I goofed fucking HARD and I apologize for mentioning the age bit.
For like 9 episodes. On top of that, Kes directly addressed it with him and he stopped it. He realized it wasn’t cool, backed off and apologized to her and Paris. So… also not seeing the issue.
For what it’s worth, I see zero mentions of her age in the thread, so I think that was an assumption on your part
But I’m in complete agreement about the creepy and controlling comments. He wasn’t creepy, he was having anxiety over the relationship, and she addressed it herself, eventually choosing to end that relationship.
You’re right on the age. That was completely on me, I fucked up heavily there. I mistook another thread as being this one. I’ve edited the comment accordingly and apologized.
Text of the story for people with non-superhuman vision:
‘It was about the third season. They finished my makeup around 7. I was going over to Stage 16 where we shot the cave scenes. I walked down the long alley between the stages. As I turned the corner I could see way up the other end of the alley another person walking towards me. It was just sunrise. We got closer and closer. Were about 10 feet from each other, and I realized it’s Robin Williams, who was on the lot doing The Birdcage. He sees me and goes, ‘Oh my God, Mr Neelix!’ Then he does this whole routine about what it’s like to be a chef in outer space. The eggs are floating, the pancakes are getting too big!’ a Robin Williams shtick. I had a private performance for like a minute and it was really funny. Then he came up, gave me a big hug and said, 'I love your character, sir.’ Such a sweet, sweet man, I’ll never forget that.
Yeah when I was younger he was a bit cringy but now after realizing everything he’s gone through and keeps going through? There was no one better suited to be ships Morale Officer.
The problem, I think, is that people think Neelix is this vapid obnoxiously happy character.
Once you're a bit older or if you've been through shit, you realise he's suffering from severe trauma and mental illness, and that the whole jovial extroversion thing is often a coping mechanism. He's been through a lot, so he doesn't want others to be sad.
Far more complex than you initially think.
As someone with relatives who survived the holocaust, I recognise the type.
Exactly. I thought he was exactly that too for a long time until started seeing those cracks under the facade. He’s a really deep and, like you say, complex character. I love him. Honestly relate to him a little bit. Didn’t go through something as monumentally horrifying as watching my planet burn but I adopted the same defense mechanism. I feel for the dude.
Not me. The.older I get the more I think it’s creepy that when we meet him he’s dating a 2 year old. As a teenager I bought the “they develop faster” hand wave, but if you think about it regardless of how quickly kes’s species develops physically, they still only have a level of experience and knowledge you can learn in 2 years. Dating someone that naive is a very rapey power imbalance. I can’t believe they allowed him around Naomi. Should have thrown him out the airlock.
If people agree that Vulcans aren’t superior to humans because they live longer than us why are humans superior to ocampa because we live longer than them? No one has an issue with human Vulcan relationships even though the Vulcan can be several times their partner’s age. Humans might look just as naive to vulcans as ocampa do to humans
Vulcans may live longer, but they mature at about the same rate, reaching adulthood in their early to mid 20s. I’m not saying humans (or talaxians) are superior to kes’s race, only that there’s only so much you can learn in 2 years. It’s more like a 50 year old human dating a 17 year old human, it’s creepy and exploitative.
She’s not a human though. If we treat all people as equals it shouldn’t matter what their lifespan is. Humans aren’t better just because we live longer. If she’s not mature enough to decide her own relationships I don’t think she would be mature enough to make most of the decisions we see her make. Deciding to leave home, choosing to stay with Voyager, learning to control her telepathy with Tuvok, etc
It’s not about “better”, it’s about power imbalance. When we meet her, when neelix has already been dating her for quite a while, she has the life experience of a very small child whereas he is a full grown adult who served in tne army and ran a trading business. It’s a classic example of grooming.
I agree that you can’t really compare years to years here. They clearly mature mentally and physically faster. It is altogether weird still, but so is the basic concept of dating aliens from another species.
For me the problem isn’t so much in the concept itself, but rather how casually it’s treated by the writing. Almost nobody on the show ever delves deep at all into how strange it is from a human point of view. It’s taken as read, and the audience is just left to stew in their own notions.
On the surface, yeah, it’s pretty bad, and if Neelix was a human I wouldn’t excuse it (cough cough TOM), but Talaxians had much more cultural exchange and knowledge of the Ocampa. I can criticize the writers for not properly dealing with the squick factor, but in-universe I have to give characters the benefit of the doubt and take them at their word.
Ocampans really do mature and accumulate knowledge and understanding at over ten times the rate of humans. They have passed all galactic cultural standards for being able to consent, and are granted the ability to choose for themselves. They clearly also have some telepathic abilities, so it’s likely those come into play in passing on knowledge and understanding from one generation to the next, allowing them to progress through maturity exponentially faster than most other species.
And since Talaxians have cultural history with them, Neelix has enough of a rich understanding of that dynamic to make an informed choice that has nothing predatory about it.
Kes could out-maneuver almost anyone on board both intellectually and emotionally, but she also has enough gravity to not seem either fey or condescending about it. I don’t see any power imbalance there. If anything she’s the one taking advantage of Neelix in order to escape the drudgery of her own life. She cares for him, but it’s obvious from the eventual outcome that she doesn’t really see him as a life partner so much as an opportunity.
I do not enjoy watching Neelix very often, but I understand why the crew liked him so much. He’s just so unconditionally kind and always trying to make everyone smile. I bet it was really cool to try all his alien foods too
Thing a lot of people forget is that he’s the most traumatized one on board too except for maybe Seven of Nine. Having to abandon his homeworld because a weapon was used on it that coated it in fire. Then when he went back as part of a military rescue team, he had to look for survivors in a place where their flesh was melted into the pavement. Lost not just his planet and family but a huge amount of his species. No family or anyone left and became a drifter scavenger that gnawed on the bones left over by Kazon and others.
The poor man’s life is an utter tragedy but he keeps going.
Two of my fav VOY episodes are centered around Neelix. He’s one of the best characters on that show. No need to argue with me about it, because deep down we all know I’m right. ^^
Out of curiosity, which ones? I’m torn between Tuvok and Neelix for my favorite character. Hilariously, Tuvix is my least favorite character by a mile. I don’t agree with the whole “IT WAS MURDER” thing to begin with but I especially don’t care when Tuvix was trying to force himself in a bunch of situations that made everyone else uncomfortable.
Jetrel and Mortal Coil, of course. My fav Tuvok episode is probably Meld, but mainly because I loved the plot around Suder and the actor of Suder is great in general. I’ve got nothing against Tuvok, but I don’t really get Vulcans and their logic only attitude. It’s why I thought the arc around Tuvix was interesting, but agreed, the character made a lot of folks very uncomfortable. Still, I think they should’ve used the transporter to “duplicate” Tuvix and devide the copy instantly back to Neelix and Tuvok. ^^
Oooo good choices. The “You killed my family/committed genocide! Of course fuck your medical expertise” episode and the “The afterlife isn’t real?” episode. Fucking STUNNING episodes. I’ve been rewatching Voyager and Mortal Coil played a couple of days ago. Always utterly captivating. Especially with poor Naomi asking about the forest after Neelix didn’t see it. Truly a heartbreaking episode.
Meld is also a fascinating episode. I’m a big fan of Vulcans so that episode was really great to see. A Vulcan revert to a sort of basic level of Vulcan. Their logic only attitude is derived, primarily, from a pants shitting level of fear that they’ll repeat the mistakes of the past. Vulcans used to be hyper violent and barbaric but logic helped them realign. The entire species seems to be collectively terrified of sliding back into that so they hold onto logic like a life vest. It’s a little tragic to be honest.
Also, I love that duplicator option simply because it might actually make the problem worse. Duplication is extremely hard to pull off but lets say they do. Now you’ve got two Tuvix. Both of them with the equal level of “I don’t want to die.” Now you have to make the same question of “Do I kill him?” but with the added level of “Which one do I kill?”
By the way, I hope my bit about the transporter clone isn’t coming off as a “Fuck your thoughts!” situation. Just my view and a way to open up a discussion if you wanted one. I don’t wanna come across as a dick here but re-reading that I wasn’t sure when it came to tone.
Oh, I’m fully aware of the Vulcan “logic only” background, but to me watching them behave and act the way they do, I’d rather watch paint dry. ^^
Regarding the double Tuvix plot: It’s why you have to split the copy Tuvix the same second he’s being created. Not aware of wtf was going on, Tuvok and Neelix show up again and are like: “Who the hell is that lad?” :D
Edit: Nah, you’re grand and I liked your objection. I had to explain further how to avoid that problem in the first place.
Edit 2: I loved Spock’s brother Sybok. He had some spice in his jam.
Also sorry if that came off as annoying in explaining something you already knew on Vulcans. More meant from the way I understand the character, not trying to overexplain. He says. Overexplaining. Sorry, anxiety and worry this morning are burning bad.
Your picks are indeed stellar. My Tuvok episodes are tied between Meld and Gravity, the one where we see Tuvok as a kid for a hot minute. Then again I just like seeing the explanation from the warp-9-level of sass he usually carries.
I’m just imagining the entire Tuvix duplication/split process causing the rest of the Doctors hair to fall out.
Oh yeah, Sybok was dope. I got way too excited when they name dropped him in Strange New Worlds. NEED MORE!
Agreed, Vulcans do win all gold medals for sass! In that regard I’ve got to admit that my fav is probably T’Pol. But it’s hard to pick a winner with Spock and Tuvok participating in that race.
Had to laugh so hard trying to imagine how the Doctor’s hair would first turn grey and fall out a second later :D
Sybok returning in SNW would be epic!
Also, Gravity is a very good Tuvok episode. Stubborn lil snot, back in the day. ^^
Sudor’s arc is great. Have you seen Babylon 5? Because Brad Dourif plays a monk in ‘passing through Gethsemane’ and it’s also an excellent performance. Probably my favorite guest character in the series.
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