Is it okay to support Israel?

Hello I just created this Account for this Question. Is it okay to support Israel in the middle east conflict? I’m from Europe and have no ties at all to any Side. Its just that I lean more to the Side of Israel then any other. Is this okay? Is it up to debate which Side is to support or is one of them clearly in the Wrong? (Like Russia is in the Wrong attacking Ukraine or Germany attacking Polland 1939).

EDIT: For clarification: Im talking about their Settlements and their military campaigns NOT about their government.

If this Post is too political please remove and I’m deeply sorry for that.

HerbalGamer,

No.

Kissaki, (edited )
@Kissaki@feddit.de avatar

Why do you support them?

Why support them without disclosing reasons?

Isn’t it reasoning that would make it OK or not OK?

Im talking about their Settlements and their military campaigns NOT about their government.

What does that even mean? Both of those are inherently political and driven from government. I don’t see how you can separate them.

ikiru,

No.

MrNesser,

Copied from another post:

I’m done with both sides; I’ve sympathised with the Palestinian people in the past - to a large extent Hamas is not the Palestinian people but is still the goverment the people voted in. Both sides have committed atrocious acts of violence and its got them nowhere in 75 years.

The situation cannot continue as is and Hamas has burned bridges it couldn’t have afforded to burn.

Israel is very capable of walking over the Palestinian territories and occupying them indefinitely, the only thing holding them back has been international pressure - which has now been released due to the recent attacks.

I’m ready as is most of my generation I believe, to see the next iteration of the middle east however that turns out.

I just feel sorry for those who are going to be rolled over.

Delphia,

“For every action there is a reaction, and an Israeli reaction is quite a fucking thing”

Rocinante,

Yes. All I’ve learned from all this middle east stuff is that unless anyone is personally involved due to blood ties nobody makes a convincing argument to win over outsiders to their side. Pretty sure many people have constantly flip flopped going what the fuck and then saying they support X then another what the fuck happens and they flip.

Just stay out of it. Not like we are personally going to arm ourselves and shed blood for the cause. All I’ve learned is that all these arguments are nothing but a bunch of keyboard warriors advocating for a conflict they have absolutely no clue about, and people just flip flopping back and forth and end up not understanding anymore than when they started. That area is just a messed up place of anarchy and I’m not even going to try to make sense of that place anymore.

VentraSqwal,

The US does send something like billions in monetary and military aid over there which could be spent here so it does kind of affect us over here, but other than that, I agree.

Hillock,

I am not really sure what you mean with their settlement. If you just mean the existence of Israel, then yes it's fine to support that. If you are talking about their actual settlement policies, then no. I don't think supporting a system of displacing people you deem "inferior" or "unwanted" to make room for "superior" people should be supported.

How to feel about the military response to the attacks is purely a personal choice. A fight against terrorists is never clean. And whether or not the amount of "collateral damages" is acceptable is up to you. I personally think that the attack by Hamas were extreme enough to warrent the response by the IDF. I don't think you can expect someone to just turn the other cheek in this scenario. But I totally understand people who say any amount of civilian casualties is too much.

StupidQuestionGuy,

No the displacements, I mean when you came into possession of Land you want to use it and you want your people to live there. That its done by forcefully removing others is not okay.

MicrosoftSam,

Israeli here: All we want is to live in peace. We welcome your support in this incredibly difficult time, after having suffered the most devastating attack our small nation has ever seen. Wishing everyone quiet, peaceful days as soon as possible.

doublejay1999,
@doublejay1999@lemmy.world avatar

“All we want is to live in peace”.

I’m sure you do, but the actions of your government tell a very different story.

dumdum666, (edited )

The actions of Israel’s government don’t give anyone the right to murder civilians and on top of that parading their broken and mutilated bodies through the streets while a crowd is loudly screaming and spitting at them.

TheDankHold,

And that’s how Palestinians feel about the decades of reprisals Israel has inflicted upon them because of Hamas.

It doesn’t give them the right to bomb hospitals and apartment buildings. It doesn’t give them the right to gun down journalists and children. It doesn’t give them the right to evict Palestinians from their homes to send in colonists for replacement. It doesn’t give them the right to turn what should be a separate country like Gaza into a literal open air prison where they can cut their power and water and they need to have Israel approve an exit pass to leave their homes and go anywhere else in the world.

Neither average citizen wants this bullshit to happen. But it’s not up to them, it’s up to a terrorist organization and a government that literally funded Hamas in the 80s and 90s so that the moderate coalition didn’t win. The one going into mosques to rough up and arrest random practitioners. I feel for every citizen in both territories, just know that war mongers in your government have contributed massively to these tragedies.

The extremists in your government had a large hand in creating the group that’s now slaughtering innocents and giving them an excuse to glass the people they look down on.

dumdum666,

The extremists in your government had a large hand in creating the group that’s now slaughtering innocents and giving them an excuse to glass the people they look down on.

What makes you think that I am from Israel? I am from Europe.

My support for the people committing those murders AND those that cheer over broken and mutilated corpses is ZERO. I am pretty sure that I am not the only one outside the Middle East that feels this way, because of the terrorist attack.

And on a sidenote: You can shove that „Israel had it coming“ where the sun don’t shine.

TheDankHold,

I mistook you for the original commenter, I apologize.

With that out of the way. You’re right that people who murder innocents don’t deserve support, which is why I condemn Hamas and the Israeli government. Good attempt at conflating my criticism with Israel as a whole but that’s manipulative framing. The Israeli government has taken plenty of actions that directly prop up Hamas and even share responsibility for its initial rise.

As an American, the Israeli government caused this in a similar way that the American government caused 9/11. Much like Israel and Hamas, American government invested in Al Qaeda in the 80s to accomplish a selfish geopolitical goal and it ended up with a massive terrorist attack on their home soil.

It’s awful and reprehensible that innocent people are being killed, no caveat. I’m just not so easily blinded by shock and emotion that I can’t identify the underlying causes that drive this inhumane clusterfuck forward.

I’m willing to keep talking if you’re willing to not assume the worst of my position instead of seeking clarification. What Hamas did was disgusting.

doublejay1999,
@doublejay1999@lemmy.world avatar

Unles their action were murdering civilians , perhaps.

dumdum666,

This is not a fucking tit for tat situation you vile human being

doublejay1999,
@doublejay1999@lemmy.world avatar

It would seem that is exactly what it is.

FMT99,

Well then perhaps you should tell Israel’s government to stop murdering civilians. Oh I know they say it’s all in self defense but you have to be pretty wilfully blind to accept that.

dumdum666,

This is not a fucking tit for tat situation you vile human being

FMT99,

That’s how Israel had been treating it for decades. I’m happy to agree that Hamas’ behavior is vile. Do you agree that Israel’s behavior is equally vile? Probably not. Israel’s violence is always “justified”, the enemy’s is always “vile”.

bingbong,

All we want is to live in peace.

Every human being on the planet claims this. Actions speak louder though, and point in the opposite direction. Israel cannot systematically oppress an entire population and expect them to lay down and be slowly eradicated from the face of this planet.

I’m not commenting on whether or not you as an individual want peace, but massive portions of the state of Israel demonstrably wants to control the entire state of Palestine, and have proven that they will engage in violence to ensure that goal is achieved.

I commend you for wanting peace, but Israel cannot achieve peace when they are currently in the process of implementing collective punishment on all Palestinians in Gaza for the actions of Hamas, IJ, Iran, and Hezbollah. I’m sure there is a significant amount of Israelis that are against this, but I wouldn’t be surprised if a majority approve.

Israeli here: All we want is to live in peace.

I sincerely hope for that to be true, and hope that peace is achieved within our lifetime. However, it cannot be achieved with increasingly violent retributions from each side. Hamas made it very clear that their abhorrent behavior is a direct response to Israel and its settler’s abhorrent behavior. Israel can stop settlements and raiding Al-Aqsa at any time. Unless it does just that, it is obvious that it is not interested in peace.

fkn,

This is a hard question.

Israel was magicked into existence not very long ago(1948), immediately started breaking agreements and compacts… Displaced millions of people from their homes and has killed thousands upon thousands more… Many innocents. It is run by an extremist religious military organization.

Hamas is a brutal, far right religious extremist movement that kills indiscriminately, even it’s own people.

Objectively they are both in the wrong.

Israel has stolen and murdered the Palestinian land and people for decades while continuously lying about their intentions.

Hamas is a shit show of an organization that is probably objectively worse… But their actions make sense when you realize that their families and property have been stolen when murdered for the last several generations. The only life most Palestine people know is one of suffering and loss… And this is directly Israels fault.

In your Russia/Ukraine scenario, Israel is Russia (mostly foreign invaders) and Ukraine is Palestine(natives fighting for their land and freedom). But it’s not quite as simple because Hamas is so objectively horrible…

StupidQuestionGuy,

Thank you for your answer! You seem to understand my Problem. I dont wanted to spark such a huge Discussion. ._.

fkn,

The British fucked up a bunch of things when they divided up political power as they abandoned their territories… Israel/Palestine and India/Pakistan…

VentraSqwal,

Don’t forget basically all the country lines in Africa, although that was Europe’s fault as a whole.

otter,
@otter@lemmy.ca avatar

I dont wanted to spark such a huge Discussion

Discussion can be good, it’s how we can all learn more :)

pinchcramp,
@pinchcramp@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

I think with a topic like this, you can’t NOT spark a huge discussion. I hope you still got some useful answers out of it :)

FuglyDuck,
@FuglyDuck@lemmy.world avatar

It’s perfectly acceptable to support civilians, and support peace- we can and should be critical of the Israeli government and Hamas- both have inflicted horrible wrongs on the other.

In fact that’s really the only way out of this, I think. This conflict has gone on long enough into history that… there’s really no side that’s justified; and it’s mired in a lot of violence and hatred to the point that it won’t be a simple path forward.

Delphia,

Allow me to preface this by saying that I think both sides act like enormous cunts at times and I am also eternally grateful that it is not my life.

The only problem I have with the “Its Palestinian land” argument is that 1948 was 75 years ago. Its very important to the macro view of the sutuation but do you think a 3rd generation Israeli born citizen who is now strapping up his body armor to fight so that people stop trying to kill his family gives much of a fuck about how young his country is? Or who traditionally owned the land? Its his town, his city, his little brother who was just kidnapped.

I dont think anyone seriously thinks if Israel gave Hamas/Palestine the whole west bank, no more arguments about borders, leaving the settlements alone and trying to make peace that Hamas would become all about peace, hugs and understanding.

I think its absolutely impossible to defend either side with a straight face. Ask both of them about the worst 10 things the other side did and both of them are monsters.

drekly, (edited )

But surely that person has to appreciate that it’s only happening because his country is killing and stealing the land of another and has been for 75 years, and has essentially kettled them into a literal corner with giant walls and no escape where they have to rely on aid to survive, while killing and injuring huge amounts more of their people. (20x more killed in the last 15 years)

.https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/33efd8de-fd80-4a16-a4ac-a9747a9028b5.jpeg

Acting in self defence or in anger is pretty understandable given what’s happened.

It’s like condemning Ukraine for attacking Russia, if Russia had been attacking for almost a century. Russia also claims that Ukrainian land belongs to their country historically. Blows my mind anyone can “both sides” it, and supporting Ukraine whilst condemning Palestine is especially hypocritical. The BBC especially surprised me how blatant the hypocrisy is with their one sided reporting

CaptObvious,

Side note: the BBC has deeply disappointed in recent years with their Murdoch-esque reporting style. They’ve had to come off the list of trusted sources.

Zippy,

Jewish history in Palestine stretches back some 2000 years with a major purge about 1500 years earlier. What do you think about that claim on their land or does time negate that? Serious question that could argue rather the opposite in that they are fighting for land was taken from them.

drekly,

What do you think about the Russian claim to the land in Ukraine

Zippy,

False. Ukraine occupies it now and have for some time.

drekly,

But Russia say it’s theirs historically? So surely they should just be allowed to have it

Zippy,

Well if Ukraine doesn’t fight for it and Europe and the US allow it, then I suppose Russia can have it. But I don’t suspect that will happen. Russia is acting like terrorists and well they are paying the consequences. I suspect this will be the downfall of Putin. No loss there.

drekly,

Do you believe that Russia rightfully should be claiming the land by force?

Zippy,

I believe the believe they do. I won’t be sad when they loose. They are acting like a terrorist country with a government that, while acting like a democracy, is eliminating any opposition negating any real democracy. They don’t care about their people but power. Much like Hamas. So no I don’t believe they have any right to Ukraine. They don’t believe in real human rights.

drekly,

I just asked what you believe about that specific topic. You said they have no right to it.

But they say historically they were there long before Ukraine was ever a thing and it’s rightfully their land, so they’re taking it by force.

So do you believe that Israel has a right to the land in Palestine due to their historic ties?

Zippy,

No I believe they have a right to defend it due to the desire of those people on it. But furthermore to this, they also occupied and lived peacefully on it at one time in the past as well. Giving them as much right as anyone.

Russia on the other hand has tried to annex the Ukraine region in past but that does not mean it is owned by Russia. So no Russia can fuck off. Ukraine is owned by the people who have spoken. Same as Israel. Palestine has lands and is owned by the people there. They wish to expand thru the use of terror then those engaging in that tactic are subject to loss of their lives. Unfortunately these fuckers have no qualms about using their own people as shields.

Ideologies that use violence to gain power are as legitimate as entities that use violence to remove them from power. After all it is the rules they enacted. Ultimately it comes down to what entity would be the most fair to the people there and represent the majority of the wishes of the people there.

drekly, (edited )

“at one time in the past”

As did Russians on the land of Ukraine, in their opinion.

In the 17th/18th century, parts of what is now Ukraine were incorporated into the Russian Empire, especially after the partitions of Poland in the late 18th century. However, other parts remained under Polish or Ottoman rule. The Russian Empire did exert considerable influence over these territories, often implementing Russification policies.

Throughout the 19th century, the concept of a Ukrainian identity persisted, albeit under the umbrella of the Russian Empire for many regions. Some Ukrainians sought greater autonomy or even independence.

During the early 20th century, specifically after the Russian Revolution, Ukraine briefly declared independence but was soon incorporated into the Soviet Union as one of its constituent republics. While it was part of the USSR, Ukraine had its own Communist Party, constitution, and administrative structures, but Moscow held ultimate authority.

It wasn’t until 1991 that Ukraine was an independent country.

So is Russia allowed to take back the land they feel is theirs, and technically was, 30 years ago?

Meanwhile, “Israel” hadn’t existed since around 63 BCE when it fell under Roman control. It wasn’t until after WW1 and especially 1947 that Jewish people of the Zionist movement decided to reclaim their religious roots and move back to the area en masse.

So is Israel allowed to take back the land they feel is theirs, and technically was, 2086 years ago?

To be clear, I don’t support anyone here. I’m just pointing out the hypocrisy of allowing Israel to dismantle Palestine whilst fighting the russian dismantlement of Ukraine.

I don’t think Palestine should be killing civilians, I don’t think Russia should be, I don’t think Israel should be. But they all are. And the media in the UK and US is only really reporting one side of the Israel situation due to their historic involvement, which causes a very one sided view of the situation, where a nation is being slowly invaded and killed whilst blaming them for any retaliation in any form.

Zippy,

Did you read what I said? Who ruled what and when is pretty much negated and means little. You trying to use your bullshit argument that Russia at one time had interests in Ukraine this should be allowed to use force and terror to take back control pretty much is a losing argument all around.

It is the people who get to decide and to a lesser extent, who the rest of the world supports.

But if you try and use a false argument the Palestinians were there first, I will counter that will an earlier version when Jews occupied that lands.

drekly,

So you’re saying yes, Israel can forcefully remove Palestinians because they were there first?

Therefore Russia can forcefully remove Ukrainians because they were there first?

VentraSqwal,

On the other hand, that is within a human lifetime and they’re still expanding their settlements today. It’s not like the bad stuff just happened to people 75 years ago then stopped.

But I wish Israel didn’t help create Hamas. It would be much preferable for a more secular force to help Palestinians that I could put my support in. No one wants to support terrorists, but now Hamas is basically their only option, which sucks. I don’t even like reading about the stuff over there now, it’s all sad and there’s no good solution.

PopOfAfrica,

I know it was difficult to move a bunch of ethnic Jews to Israel to begin with, but I don’t see why it would be any more or less difficult to move them away in some sort of gigantic humanitarian effort to give the land back to Palestine now. It is equally as ridiculous now as it would have been back then.

Why not as an international community just guarantee a spot anywhere on the planet effectively for people to move out of Israel and into a country of their choice and give the land back most importantly.

letsroll,
@letsroll@kbin.social avatar

Ironically, the beginning was then England left and divided the land between them. Then all the surrounding countries attacked the Jews and as they defended themselves, created the borders.

darkdemize,

Even if you did find a place to move them, the Israeli people don’t want to leave. The area they currently occupy is sacred to all three Abrahamic religions, which is a motivating factor for the conflict.

PopOfAfrica,

They can stay, they’d just not be the defacto rulers of the land anymore

Stovetop, (edited )

Why not as an international community just guarantee a spot anywhere on the planet effectively for people to move out of Israel and into a country of their choice and give the land back most importantly.

That already happened once, and it is called Israel.

The core issue at the heart of all of this would be the generations of oppression and systemic genocide done to the Jews of Europe and the Middle East that necessitated the establishment of a sovereign Jewish state. And barring any better options, it was decided at that time that the best candidate was the ancestral homeland of the Jews. There was just the small problem of people who were living there for generations after the Jews were first pushed out centuries ago.

You can probably find countries willing to take in Jewish refugees if Israel were to dissolve, but no country on Earth is willing to cede land to enable the same degree of self-governance that Israel has today. If America or Germany were to cede land to create New Israel, that would only result in the same degree of resentment among the generational occupants of that territory that the Palestinians feel today.

Forcing another diaspora and relegating the Jews back to being just a minority group scattered across dozens of countries is asking for the same conditions that led to all of the forced migrations, pogroms, and holocaust which necessitated the establishment of Israel as a sovereign state in the first place.

PopOfAfrica,

But that’s the thing. What does Palestinian apartheid have to do with any of it? It was thrusted upon them. Just doesn’t seem fair.

shish_mish,
@shish_mish@lemmy.world avatar

I imagine Ukraine’s resistance would become objectively horrible if the Russians were still there after decades, claiming more and more land, bulldozing homes and creating an Apartheid. I once watched a documentary about Palestine (one of many) and the documentary maker was talking to a Palestinian woman while children were playing in the background. The children were playing a game of being suicide bombers. The reporter asked the woman about the children’s game. She said that t the children had no hope for the future, their only hope for a better life was after death.

That really stuck with me. The Palestinian people have been treated like animals for generations by Israel, lied to, robbed, kept in poverty and forced to live in apartheid. I am not surprised they are fighting back. Yes, HAMAS are definitely bad guys too, but Israel is worse and till they are held to account over their behaviour and made to return Palestinian land and homes that have been illegally annexed ,things will not get better.

SCB,

If Hamas didn’t exist, life in Palestine would be totally different, so this is a bit of a misleading conciliation you’re making.

Rejecting peace deals then acting as if your rights are violated because you don’t have a peace deal, which then justifies your terrorism, is not something that helps the people of your nation

TheDankHold,

So if the Israeli military hadn’t funneled resources to Hamas in the 80s and 90s it’d be pretty different, good point. Maybe the moderate coalition would’ve been comparatively powerful enough to gain leadership instead of literal terrorists.

SCB, (edited )

Yeah that would’ve been great. Ideal, even.

Unfortunately the only thing to do now is completely dismantle Hamas. Current Israelis did not make this bed, but they’re the ones stuck sleeping in it.

gravitas_deficiency, (edited )

Israel was magicked into existence not very long ago(1948), immediately started breaking agreements and compacts

This is not really an accurate portrayal of events. Literally on the day that Israel was founded, Egypt, Transjordan, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, and Yemen launched an invasion - for those keeping score at home, that’s all of their neighbors at the time, plus some of the larger countries in the region. This immediate and unflinching antagonism - very specifically on the heels of Jewish people being subjected to the Holocaust, and in combination with rhetoric from their neighbors calling for “the eradication of Israel” - seems to have largely set the tone of Israeli-Arab relations since then, and Israel has fought more than one existential conflict against its neighbors since then.

Now, I’m not saying Israel is blameless here, nor am I saying that the UK/UN was blameless in arbitrarily drawing some lines on a map in a very geopolitically fraught area. But I do find the narrative that Israel is solely responsible for the situation in entirety to be woefully naive at best, and maliciously disingenuous at worst. Sure, they’ve made a LOT of bad calls over the years, but the situation cannot be placed entirely at the feet of Israel.

fkn,

That is a fair critique. Israel isn’t solely at fault, but they do share blame. It’s difficult to fit the entirety of the history, but from the Palestinian point of view what I said isn’t wrong. There may be confounding external causes, but Israel has absolutely been in the wrong from nearly the beginning of its existence.

There are arguments about preventing genocide that are valid, but most of these arguments start from racist ethnostate positions that have very little moral credibility.

Jakdracula,
@Jakdracula@lemmy.world avatar

yup

S_204,

How on earth do you claim Israel immediately started ‘breaking agreements’ when they were attacked on multiple fronts as soon as they became a country?

That’s some wild revisionist history.

Israel not only defended themselves but took land in the war. They then returned that land later on as a gesture of goodwill. Only to be attacked again and again…

eatham,
@eatham@aussie.zone avatar

Yes, you can prefer either as long as you don’t be rude about it. Personally (as someone formerly from Israel) I want peace not war, but definitely prefer Israel as a country.

ThePyroPython,

You’re under no obligation to answer these questions, but I would like your opinion:

Before the recent attack, was there any chance of a long lasting agreement being reached between Israel and Palestine?

What are the chances of a peace deal being respected by both sides?

PupBiru,
@PupBiru@kbin.social avatar

also (somewhat ignorant myself), possibly useful to distinguish between palestine and hamas… palestine the state might be more amenable than hamas

… but idk

MicrosoftSam,

Different Israeli here, but I imagine most of us feel the same, and it’s best summed up by Golda Meir’s famous quote: “There will be peace in the Middle East only when the Arabs love their children more than they hate Israel.”

All we want is to live in peace.

eatham,
@eatham@aussie.zone avatar

I don’t really see a peace deal happening soon, haven’t heard of any recent attempts to make one.

betwixthewires,

No matter what you think of it, someone’s going to try to guilt and browbeat you. Support the Palestinians? You’re antisemitic and support terrorism. Support Israel? You’re supporting an oppressive apartheid state. So who cares whether you’re allowed, this is the world we live in, no matter what you think about anything there’s someone out there who’s going to call you a bad person for it. Just learn about things before you form an opinion, use your judgment and critical thinking and then figure out the truth of whatever it is.

Personally, I don’t support either side. I can see how they both kind of brought each other’s retaliation on themselves. I just lament innocent people dying and dislike how it affects me.

HardlightCereal,

Israeli people and Palestinian people both have a legitimate claim to live in the land surrounding Jerusalem. Palestinians are mostly muslim, and there are other muslim places to live. Israeli people are mostly jewish, and there are no other jewish places to live. That said, religion isn’t ethnicity. Palestinians may be the same religion as other muslims, but they’re not the same race. Just like black americans are mostly christian, but that doesn’t mean they’re the same race as white americans. Israeli people can’t be guaranteed fair treatment elsewhere. Palestinian people have a right to live in their homes.

Israeli and Palestianian people both have a valid and important need to live in the holy land. So the simple solution is, they should both live there. That’s a solution supported by a lot of Isreali and Palestinian people. But it’s not a solution supported by the government of Israel. The government of Israel wants political control over the whole region, and to be able to legally and systemically put jews first.

I don’t think the correct answer is “support” or “don’t support”, because that’s too broad. I think the correct answer is to support the people’s rights, and support the government’s desire for safety for its people, but not to support the government’s treatment of palestinians.

eatham,
@eatham@aussie.zone avatar

Also a lot of both Jews and Arabs just hate the other side so it’s not really the govt problem here.

NoneOfUrBusiness,

That’s a solution supported by a lot of Isreali and Palestinian people. But it’s not a solution supported by the government of Israel. The government of Israel wants political control over the whole region, and to be able to legally and systemically put jews first.

Bro/sis you took the words off my tongue.

HardlightCereal,

Nonbinary sib.

fkn,

there are no other Jewish places to live

This is such a weird stance. What even is this position that is nonchalantly thrown into the argument as if it even matters.

HardlightCereal,

It’s the position of zionists. I threw it in for completeness, and added a counterargument. If you want me to explain their position more thoroughly, zionists believe that Jewish safety can only be guaranteed by Jewish independence. In any democracy, minorities are only protected as long as the majority vote for their interests. Zionists desire a state with a jewish majority, to guarantee safety. I don’t believe in states because I’m an anarchist, but I empathise with wanting the protection of a state.

fkn,

In the United States, I find the Zionist argument to mostly be a racist Christian push to remove Jews from the US.

I recognize that people may believe it without that racism… But it’s just a crazy argument to me… And I think the way you originally presented it is the way that is normalized by extreme Christian organizations in the US which is why I called it out.

HardlightCereal,

I like to fight against my opponent’s strongest position. If I were to ignore my opponent’s best arguments, then those I educate could change their minds later when they run into those arguments. If I acknowledge their best argument and refute it, then there’s nothing more they can do in the debate. OP didn’t know the first thing about Israel when I made that first comment. They ought to know why Israel thinks it’s in the right. If I say Israel are bad and don’t explain why they’re being bad, then I’m not properly educating OP. Every hateful or evil group in the world has some kind of reason they think they’re in the right. Understanding these reasons is essential.

fkn,

Excellent.

StupidQuestionGuy,

Huh. Okay that makes Sense to me. Thank you!

fkn,

Which part?

StupidQuestionGuy,

I don’t think the correct answer is “support” or “don’t support”, because that’s too broad. I think the correct answer is to support the people’s rights, and support the government’s desire for safety for its people, but not to support the government’s treatment of palestinians.

PopOfAfrica,

I don’t think religion is just a justification for owning any land. That’s kind of a backwards take. Regressive, really.

FMT99,

So you’re saying disband both governments, replace with an international peace keeping force. That actually makes sense.

otter, (edited )
@otter@lemmy.ca avatar

Is it ok to

There’s no big authority on how you’re supposed to feel, especially on Lemmy. But there ARE usually rules on what kind of comments you can make, regardless of which “side” of a conflict you’re speaking about.

As for public sentiment, it really comes down to if you’re speaking in good faith or not. These are complex issues with many aspects to talk about, and discussion can be very productive, if you’re speaking in good faith.

As for my personal opinion: You don’t need to pick a side. It’s possible to have a pragmatic view of the issue rather than picking one side or the other.

Edit:

On the last point, I’m seeing a lot of comments (especially on other platforms) along the lines of “I supported X until today, but the actions today make me support Y”. It’s weird that I’m seeing it so often, but it’s a weird statement to begin with.

fkn,

I’m nearly positive that the “I supported X until…” Comments are bot farms trying to normalize the second position. It has been happening a lot in the past 5-7 years or so.

Noel_Skum,

Good luck debating this topic. Even on a sight such as this it is way too divisive a question. You don’t have to support either side - it’s not a sports contest. There is too much history and backstory to make a snap decision. It’s just more death and misery for innocent folk on both sides whilst the fanatics (Hardliners, extremists etc.) on both sides try to wipe each other out.

SportsRulesOpinions,
@SportsRulesOpinions@lemmy.world avatar

The Israel and Palestine situation is way too complicated to be left to “I support Israel.” Support in what way? Their existence? Their military campaigns? Their government? Their settlements? Everything they’ve ever done ever?

Do you then oppose everything done by people from Palestine? Do you then oppose the existence of Palestine?

In my opinion it’s not okay to leave your opinion as that simple. If that’s all you’ve got your opinion is bad because it’s simplistic, not because it supports a particular side.

StupidQuestionGuy,

I support Israel ownership of the Land they won in the War, their Settlements and their military campaigns. I dont support their goverment. (Sorry I thought that might be clear because i was talking about the Conflict itself not just about Israel as a State)

breadsmasher,
@breadsmasher@lemmy.world avatar

Just as something to think about, would you support the nazi and soviet campaign into poland, and the land they won from that?

Or the british empire winning land all over the globe?

StupidQuestionGuy,

This is exactly my Question! I’ve never learnd anything about this conflict in School or elsewhere. Is it that simple like Russia/Ukraine or Nazi-Germany/Poland?

otter,
@otter@lemmy.ca avatar

I think a big part of this is being open to having your opinions changed. This is true for me, even on topics that I know about and have years of experience with.

As for your main point, I’d like to reiterate again: You don’t need to pick a side, and you especially shouldn’t feel forced to pick a side when you have yet to learn more about the issue.

StupidQuestionGuy,

I will try! It just came up and I wasn’t sure about anything ._. Maybe I will just say “I dont know enough to have a stance” in the future.

McJonalds,

I just wanna say no matter your opinion, as long as it is followed by the openmindedness you just showed, you’re gonna be fine

Izzgo,

Maybe I will just say “I don't know enough to have a stance”

This is an amazing attitude, one more of us would be wise to adopt.

RIPandTERROR,
@RIPandTERROR@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Anyone that is familiar with that sentence immediately garners my respect

dinckelman,

Nothing about the Ukrainian-Russian conflict is simple. This is based on decades of disagreements, and it’s only becoming more complicated, because history is written by the loudest asshole around

Hanabie,
@Hanabie@sh.itjust.works avatar

It’s very simple actually. Russia invaded a souvereign country. The end.

dinckelman,

That is a factually correct statement, I never said it isn’t

TWeaK,

I mean it’s pretty simple to say that Russia invaded Ukraine. Twice.

dinckelman,

That I can’t deny. They are very clearly known for agitating their neighbors, and their nationalists causing mass chaos in places that they think belong to them

TWeaK,

Yeah Russia are pretty good at kicking the dirt up and spreading a lot of propaganda, but if you look at the hard points it’s pretty clear cut.

The same isn’t true of Israel and Palestine. Going through what each side has done to the other and trying to weigh it and figure out which side is worse is a futile exercise that does nothing to stop further violence from happening.

Hyperreality, (edited )

People will claim it is, but it really isn't. Honestly, you'll read a lot of biased answers here.

The safest bet is to condemn the rape, murder and torture of civilians, but accept that there are no 'good' guys in this conflict.

To give you an idea:

You'll read a lot of comments about how Israelis stole land from the Palestinian Arabs. But Palestinains also stole land from Palestinian Jews.

Many middle-eastern countries had significant Jewish populations before that, but almost all were forced to flee to Israel. Something like a third of Israelis are 'Arab' Jews or Mizrahi as the prefer to be called. They're not 'foreign invaders'. They're (the family of) locals or refugees from neighbouring countries.

Hamas are horrible, and what the last few days have been deplorable, but arguably Israel helped create them.

Also, recent right-wing Israeli governments have consistently undermined any hope of a peace deal, meaning there's no real alternative for Palestinians.

But, back in 2000 Israel did offer far reaching concessions to the Palestinians, so much so that IRC the Saudi ambassador said it would be a crime not to accept them or at least continue negotiating. But Arafat, the Palestinian leader at the time, did just that.

Also, neighbouring Arab countries claim to support Palestine, but often only on paper. When they accepted Palestinian refugees this caused them huge issues. For example in Lebanon:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damour_massacre

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karantina_massacre

Also, a lot of arab nationalist groups, including Palestinian ones, are virulently anti-semitic and have actual historical ties to the nazis who supported them in their fight against the colonial powers (Britain, France, etc.):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mein_Kampf_in_Arabic#Mein_Kampf_and_Arab_nationalism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husseini#Ties_with_the_Axis_Powers_during_World_War_II

But then the current Israeli government contains ultra-nationalists. One of the ministers once belonged to a banned far right terrorist organisation, labeled as such by the US and Israel. They were openly racist and supported terrorist attacks against Palestinians.

fkn, (edited )

Most of Israeli immigration has been from the former Soviet Union, not the middle East… Unless you count the FSU as the Middle East… Which depending on how you want to count things for displaced peoples may be valid… And it really kicked off in the early 70s.

jewishvirtuallibrary.org/total-immigration-to-isr…

Hyperreality, (edited )

not the middle East…

If you re-read my comment, you'll note I said that something like a third of Israelis are (originally from) from the middle-east or arab countries.

Wikipedia:

Mizrahi Jews (Hebrew: יהודי המִזְרָח), also known as Mizrahim (מִזְרָחִים) or Mizrachi (מִזְרָחִי) and alternatively referred to as Oriental Jews or Edot HaMizrach (עֲדוֹת-הַמִּזְרָח, lit. 'Communities of the East'),[2] are a grouping of Jewish communities comprising those who remained in the Land of Israel and those who existed in diaspora throughout and around the Middle East and North Africa (MENA) from biblical times into the modern era. ... Regions with significant populations ... Israel ... 3,200,000

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahi_Jews

3.2 million / 9.5 million = 33.7%.

Most of Israeli immigration has been from the former Soviet Union

Wikipedia:

Russians in Israel or Russian Israelis are post-Soviet Russian citizens who immigrate to Israel and their descendants. As of 2022, Russian-speakers number around 1,300,000 people, or 15% of the Israeli population. This number, however, also includes immigrants from the Soviet Union and post-Soviet states other than Russia proper.

So 33% from the MENA.

15% Soviet.

Ashkenazi(mainly Europe): 2.8 million / 9.5 = 29.4%

IRC the rest are non-Jews.

That took far too long to google, which is why most people debating the whole conflict simply don't bother. Why would they when they've already come to a conclusion and chosen a side? Why let the facts get in the way?

Honestly, this is why I'd rather swim in a septic tank, than spend too long debating the whole thing.

captainlezbian,

It’s closer to United States vs indigenous Americans

letsroll,
@letsroll@kbin.social avatar

Israel’s wars have been defensive.

breadsmasher,
@breadsmasher@lemmy.world avatar

That wasn’t part of the question/example. I was responding to “land won in war”

NoneOfUrBusiness,

Uh... Since you seem new to the topic, I'd recommend you look up Israeli treatment of Palestinians in Gaza, the West Bank, East Palestine and Israel proper (they're all bad for different reasons, but the order of badness goes like this), and how the settlement process works. Note: It usually involves Palestinians being forced off their homes.

mxl,

Maybe think if by the same logic you also support Russia’s “ownership” of Crimea and Eastern Ukranine territory. If you don’t support that, then maybe you’ve been propaganded.

Gorgeous_Sloth,

People supporting a side like it’s a bloody football match

NeoNachtwaechter,

This conflict is so old now that it is absolutely safe to say: both sides are somewhat right and somewhat wrong.

Having said that, and because we are in such a special sub here: if you support Israel, you get entitled for Jewish heaven later! :-)

Pea666,

Short answer: Sure, why would you need our approval anyway.

Longer answer: it’s a complicated conflict where shitty things are done by both sides and it’s probably not as simple as supporting one side over the other all the time.

I’d say a lot of it is politicians being political for their own gains and normal people (Israeli and Palestinian) getting fucked. But who am I eh?

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