Is it okay to support Israel?

Hello I just created this Account for this Question. Is it okay to support Israel in the middle east conflict? I’m from Europe and have no ties at all to any Side. Its just that I lean more to the Side of Israel then any other. Is this okay? Is it up to debate which Side is to support or is one of them clearly in the Wrong? (Like Russia is in the Wrong attacking Ukraine or Germany attacking Polland 1939).

EDIT: For clarification: Im talking about their Settlements and their military campaigns NOT about their government.

If this Post is too political please remove and I’m deeply sorry for that.

Barley_Man,

When it comes to Israel vs Palestine then I absolutely think it’s alright to support either side. Both sides have valid reasons to exist and both sides have done horrible things to each other. But remember this is not Israel vs the Palestinian authority (the west bank). This is Israel vs Hamas (Gaza). That makes a world of a difference. In this conflict I believe Hamas is in the wrong.

Many people accuse Israel to be an apartheid state. I would argue Israeli arabs have it much better than blacks in south Africa did (polling even shows arab-isrealis (the ones who ended up in isreals side of the border in 1948) prefer living in Israel instead of Palestine because of their quality of life) however they are certainly not equal to the Jewish isrealies. But now ask yourself. How would a Jew be treated in Gaza? There are none and there is a reason for that. They would get killed on the street immediately. If isreal is an apartheid state then Gaza is a puristic ehnostate. Both are racist but Gaza is infinitely worse. They don’t want to coexist with Jews at all, no they want them all dead.

Hamas is one of the worst organisations on earth. They don’t even care for their own people. When western nations give Gaza free fertilizer to feed their people and reduce starvation then Hamas used it to build bombs to fire at Israel. When western charities gave Gaza money to feed their people, they bought guns instead. This is a regime ruled by nothing else than hate and does not even have a concern for their own people. Isreal supplies Gaza with water and electricity and has done so for decades. Gaza would never do something like that for isreal. I believe there is no case for Hamas at all. They are in the wrong here quite definitely. Just look who they are attacking. First target was a music festival by the border where they raped, kidnapped and murdered all the participants. This music festival was a music festival for peace. That’s why it was right by the border fence. Hamas didn’t believe in peace.

StupidQuestionGuy,

Okay so there is a difference between Hamas and Palestine? ( The more i read in this thread, the more i realize i’m stupid and uniformed q_q ).

I don’t want to accuse you but can you provide sources for your claims about fertilizer, money and the music festival?

Omega_Haxors, (edited )

There’s a pretty big asymmetry between the shit the Illegal Occupation of Palestine does, and the limited resistance attempts of Hamas.

Also, Hamas would have never existed if their people weren’t constantly under genocide, so fuck everyone here both-sidesing this.

sailingbythelee,

You are attempting to make a notoriously difficult and nuanced conflict into a simplistic black-and-white issue with your useless and insulting virtue signaling. So, what can one say to your comment? Fuck you, too, I guess? Grow up. There are two sides here, each with their legitimate interests and concerns. Geopolitics is hard, dumb-ass.

Omega_Haxors,

“Lets have some nuance” people on their way to defend nazi war criminals

RIotingPacifist,

You ever wonder what it would be like if you had self-esteem & were proud of your values instead of complaining about others having virtues?

half_built_pyramids,

psaltery

noun

an ancient and medieval musical instrument like a dulcimer but played by plucking the strings with the fingers or a plectrum.

Omega_Haxors,

yeah idk what happened there chief.

RIotingPacifist,

Also Hamas was empowered by the Israeli state by the distruction of secular opposition.

Not disimilar to how the US armed the Taliban & created a power vacuum for them to fill

samus12345,
@samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

But whatabout the US??

RIotingPacifist,

It’s an apt comparison, there aren’t many examples so on the nose about deliberately destabilizing secular groups and Islamist groups filling the power vacuum, only to become a more violent threat.

If you want you could compare it to the allied powers starving the Spanish Republic of resources, enabling the rise of the Nazis, but it’s a bit of a stretch.

samus12345,
@samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

Sure, but so what? Nobody was talking about the US here.

RIotingPacifist,

Ok do you understand what an analogue is?

Perhaps Lemmy needs a “translate to simple English feature for you”

h3mlocke,

🤦‍♀️

nandeEbisu,

If you are comfortable with your understanding of the situation and arguing for whichever side you choose to support instead of just refusing to hear anything to the contrary then support whoever you want.

Just know this isn’t like a sports team where there’s only superficial differences. It’s also ok to say I’m not informed enough to take one side or the other, or maybe only lean one way. You can point to unethical behavior on both sides, but I think it’s not unreasonable for people to hold one side more at blame than the other. Look into the history of the region and the ongoing discussion.

clothes,

Thanks for being perhaps the only comment here trying to be helpful to those who aren’t deeply familiar with the conflict.

I think an important emphasis here is that people shouldn’t accept explanations of the situation that make things easy to understand.

doktorseven,

Support peace. It is the only correct stance. There is zero reason for conflict, find a peaceful resolution.

CrypticFawn,
@CrypticFawn@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Peace can only be achieved once one side has been destroyed, for the simple fact that neither can tolerate the others existence.

I wish peace was a viable option, but it just isn’t.

bouh,

Yet if you’re not part of the conflict there’s no reason to support one side over the other.

spiderplant,

Yeah there is. If you’re antifascist and anti-imperialist you should support the oppressed people.

If you don’t side explicitly against fascist states and American imperialism then you support it.

bouh,

And support terrorism? Tell me how will these large scale attack make life better for Palestinians?

spiderplant,

Terrorism or liberation?

How will the opposite help?

Injustice can happen under peace, so peace is not the answer. Peace is the language of the oppressor, liberation and justice is the language of the oppressed.

Also if America backs someone and calls their opponents terrorists even through they funded them, does that mean the opponents are actually terrorists?

bouh,

What liberation will there be here? Do you expect the hamas to win anything against Israel? They would fight actual military targets if they could win anything.

Can you tell what this show of violence from the hamas will bring to Palestine? What will Palestine earn from this?

I’m all for fighting oppression. But I’m skeptical of sacrificing people for nothing.

Yes Israel is a fascist and terrorist country. And the US are hypocrite to support them. That being said, will a shower of rockets on civilians change any of that? No, on the contrary.

If any, Israel is the only one that will win from this new war.

spiderplant,

The US aren’t hypocrites when they support fascist states its what they’ve always done unless public support hasn’t let them.

Hamas isn’t Palestine. I expect when the people rise up together they will win. There are way more organisations than Hama’s currently in this fight btw.

Last I’ve seen is that the Palestinian offensive is 10 km away from splitting Israel in two. We’ll see what the situation is when the dust settles.

For the moment I will continue to uncritically support the Palestinian struggle and call out those that don’t because they support genocide as the status quo.

Ataraxia,

It’s terrorism when you attack civilians. It’s liberation when you attack the military. I mean they must not give a shit about getting any kind of support because it looks really bad when you murder and kidnap people from a music festival especially when many of them were foreigners. That passes everyone off. And the Palestinians are gonna get murdered for it. I’m sure the ireaeli government is just giddy to have a huge excuse for their current invasion… the Gaza strip really needs to become a neutral zone at this point lol…

spiderplant,

Even if they only hit military targets they would still be labeled as terrorists. You need a different word that hasn’t been massively overused.

If the support is conditional its not really support.

Did you even do any research before you came up with this bulshit liberal stance? The Gaza Strip a neutral zone? That’s like saying Israel needs to become a neutral zone.

nandeEbisu, (edited )

I think that’s good advice for social situations, but if you truly believe there is genocide occurring, or exploitation, then there is nothing wrong with supporting one side over the other.

Dkarma,

It is. If Israel moves.

SpicyLizards, (edited )

Damn, should have told them sooner!

I think everyone loves hummus however.

fkn,

This is a hard question.

Israel was magicked into existence not very long ago(1948), immediately started breaking agreements and compacts… Displaced millions of people from their homes and has killed thousands upon thousands more… Many innocents. It is run by an extremist religious military organization.

Hamas is a brutal, far right religious extremist movement that kills indiscriminately, even it’s own people.

Objectively they are both in the wrong.

Israel has stolen and murdered the Palestinian land and people for decades while continuously lying about their intentions.

Hamas is a shit show of an organization that is probably objectively worse… But their actions make sense when you realize that their families and property have been stolen when murdered for the last several generations. The only life most Palestine people know is one of suffering and loss… And this is directly Israels fault.

In your Russia/Ukraine scenario, Israel is Russia (mostly foreign invaders) and Ukraine is Palestine(natives fighting for their land and freedom). But it’s not quite as simple because Hamas is so objectively horrible…

StupidQuestionGuy,

Thank you for your answer! You seem to understand my Problem. I dont wanted to spark such a huge Discussion. ._.

fkn,

The British fucked up a bunch of things when they divided up political power as they abandoned their territories… Israel/Palestine and India/Pakistan…

VentraSqwal,

Don’t forget basically all the country lines in Africa, although that was Europe’s fault as a whole.

otter,
@otter@lemmy.ca avatar

I dont wanted to spark such a huge Discussion

Discussion can be good, it’s how we can all learn more :)

pinchcramp,
@pinchcramp@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

I think with a topic like this, you can’t NOT spark a huge discussion. I hope you still got some useful answers out of it :)

FuglyDuck,
@FuglyDuck@lemmy.world avatar

It’s perfectly acceptable to support civilians, and support peace- we can and should be critical of the Israeli government and Hamas- both have inflicted horrible wrongs on the other.

In fact that’s really the only way out of this, I think. This conflict has gone on long enough into history that… there’s really no side that’s justified; and it’s mired in a lot of violence and hatred to the point that it won’t be a simple path forward.

Delphia,

Allow me to preface this by saying that I think both sides act like enormous cunts at times and I am also eternally grateful that it is not my life.

The only problem I have with the “Its Palestinian land” argument is that 1948 was 75 years ago. Its very important to the macro view of the sutuation but do you think a 3rd generation Israeli born citizen who is now strapping up his body armor to fight so that people stop trying to kill his family gives much of a fuck about how young his country is? Or who traditionally owned the land? Its his town, his city, his little brother who was just kidnapped.

I dont think anyone seriously thinks if Israel gave Hamas/Palestine the whole west bank, no more arguments about borders, leaving the settlements alone and trying to make peace that Hamas would become all about peace, hugs and understanding.

I think its absolutely impossible to defend either side with a straight face. Ask both of them about the worst 10 things the other side did and both of them are monsters.

drekly, (edited )

But surely that person has to appreciate that it’s only happening because his country is killing and stealing the land of another and has been for 75 years, and has essentially kettled them into a literal corner with giant walls and no escape where they have to rely on aid to survive, while killing and injuring huge amounts more of their people. (20x more killed in the last 15 years)

.https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/33efd8de-fd80-4a16-a4ac-a9747a9028b5.jpeg

Acting in self defence or in anger is pretty understandable given what’s happened.

It’s like condemning Ukraine for attacking Russia, if Russia had been attacking for almost a century. Russia also claims that Ukrainian land belongs to their country historically. Blows my mind anyone can “both sides” it, and supporting Ukraine whilst condemning Palestine is especially hypocritical. The BBC especially surprised me how blatant the hypocrisy is with their one sided reporting

CaptObvious,

Side note: the BBC has deeply disappointed in recent years with their Murdoch-esque reporting style. They’ve had to come off the list of trusted sources.

Zippy,

Jewish history in Palestine stretches back some 2000 years with a major purge about 1500 years earlier. What do you think about that claim on their land or does time negate that? Serious question that could argue rather the opposite in that they are fighting for land was taken from them.

drekly,

What do you think about the Russian claim to the land in Ukraine

Zippy,

False. Ukraine occupies it now and have for some time.

drekly,

But Russia say it’s theirs historically? So surely they should just be allowed to have it

Zippy,

Well if Ukraine doesn’t fight for it and Europe and the US allow it, then I suppose Russia can have it. But I don’t suspect that will happen. Russia is acting like terrorists and well they are paying the consequences. I suspect this will be the downfall of Putin. No loss there.

drekly,

Do you believe that Russia rightfully should be claiming the land by force?

Zippy,

I believe the believe they do. I won’t be sad when they loose. They are acting like a terrorist country with a government that, while acting like a democracy, is eliminating any opposition negating any real democracy. They don’t care about their people but power. Much like Hamas. So no I don’t believe they have any right to Ukraine. They don’t believe in real human rights.

drekly,

I just asked what you believe about that specific topic. You said they have no right to it.

But they say historically they were there long before Ukraine was ever a thing and it’s rightfully their land, so they’re taking it by force.

So do you believe that Israel has a right to the land in Palestine due to their historic ties?

Zippy,

No I believe they have a right to defend it due to the desire of those people on it. But furthermore to this, they also occupied and lived peacefully on it at one time in the past as well. Giving them as much right as anyone.

Russia on the other hand has tried to annex the Ukraine region in past but that does not mean it is owned by Russia. So no Russia can fuck off. Ukraine is owned by the people who have spoken. Same as Israel. Palestine has lands and is owned by the people there. They wish to expand thru the use of terror then those engaging in that tactic are subject to loss of their lives. Unfortunately these fuckers have no qualms about using their own people as shields.

Ideologies that use violence to gain power are as legitimate as entities that use violence to remove them from power. After all it is the rules they enacted. Ultimately it comes down to what entity would be the most fair to the people there and represent the majority of the wishes of the people there.

drekly, (edited )

“at one time in the past”

As did Russians on the land of Ukraine, in their opinion.

In the 17th/18th century, parts of what is now Ukraine were incorporated into the Russian Empire, especially after the partitions of Poland in the late 18th century. However, other parts remained under Polish or Ottoman rule. The Russian Empire did exert considerable influence over these territories, often implementing Russification policies.

Throughout the 19th century, the concept of a Ukrainian identity persisted, albeit under the umbrella of the Russian Empire for many regions. Some Ukrainians sought greater autonomy or even independence.

During the early 20th century, specifically after the Russian Revolution, Ukraine briefly declared independence but was soon incorporated into the Soviet Union as one of its constituent republics. While it was part of the USSR, Ukraine had its own Communist Party, constitution, and administrative structures, but Moscow held ultimate authority.

It wasn’t until 1991 that Ukraine was an independent country.

So is Russia allowed to take back the land they feel is theirs, and technically was, 30 years ago?

Meanwhile, “Israel” hadn’t existed since around 63 BCE when it fell under Roman control. It wasn’t until after WW1 and especially 1947 that Jewish people of the Zionist movement decided to reclaim their religious roots and move back to the area en masse.

So is Israel allowed to take back the land they feel is theirs, and technically was, 2086 years ago?

To be clear, I don’t support anyone here. I’m just pointing out the hypocrisy of allowing Israel to dismantle Palestine whilst fighting the russian dismantlement of Ukraine.

I don’t think Palestine should be killing civilians, I don’t think Russia should be, I don’t think Israel should be. But they all are. And the media in the UK and US is only really reporting one side of the Israel situation due to their historic involvement, which causes a very one sided view of the situation, where a nation is being slowly invaded and killed whilst blaming them for any retaliation in any form.

Zippy,

Did you read what I said? Who ruled what and when is pretty much negated and means little. You trying to use your bullshit argument that Russia at one time had interests in Ukraine this should be allowed to use force and terror to take back control pretty much is a losing argument all around.

It is the people who get to decide and to a lesser extent, who the rest of the world supports.

But if you try and use a false argument the Palestinians were there first, I will counter that will an earlier version when Jews occupied that lands.

drekly,

So you’re saying yes, Israel can forcefully remove Palestinians because they were there first?

Therefore Russia can forcefully remove Ukrainians because they were there first?

VentraSqwal,

On the other hand, that is within a human lifetime and they’re still expanding their settlements today. It’s not like the bad stuff just happened to people 75 years ago then stopped.

But I wish Israel didn’t help create Hamas. It would be much preferable for a more secular force to help Palestinians that I could put my support in. No one wants to support terrorists, but now Hamas is basically their only option, which sucks. I don’t even like reading about the stuff over there now, it’s all sad and there’s no good solution.

PopOfAfrica,

I know it was difficult to move a bunch of ethnic Jews to Israel to begin with, but I don’t see why it would be any more or less difficult to move them away in some sort of gigantic humanitarian effort to give the land back to Palestine now. It is equally as ridiculous now as it would have been back then.

Why not as an international community just guarantee a spot anywhere on the planet effectively for people to move out of Israel and into a country of their choice and give the land back most importantly.

letsroll,
@letsroll@kbin.social avatar

Ironically, the beginning was then England left and divided the land between them. Then all the surrounding countries attacked the Jews and as they defended themselves, created the borders.

darkdemize,

Even if you did find a place to move them, the Israeli people don’t want to leave. The area they currently occupy is sacred to all three Abrahamic religions, which is a motivating factor for the conflict.

PopOfAfrica,

They can stay, they’d just not be the defacto rulers of the land anymore

Stovetop, (edited )

Why not as an international community just guarantee a spot anywhere on the planet effectively for people to move out of Israel and into a country of their choice and give the land back most importantly.

That already happened once, and it is called Israel.

The core issue at the heart of all of this would be the generations of oppression and systemic genocide done to the Jews of Europe and the Middle East that necessitated the establishment of a sovereign Jewish state. And barring any better options, it was decided at that time that the best candidate was the ancestral homeland of the Jews. There was just the small problem of people who were living there for generations after the Jews were first pushed out centuries ago.

You can probably find countries willing to take in Jewish refugees if Israel were to dissolve, but no country on Earth is willing to cede land to enable the same degree of self-governance that Israel has today. If America or Germany were to cede land to create New Israel, that would only result in the same degree of resentment among the generational occupants of that territory that the Palestinians feel today.

Forcing another diaspora and relegating the Jews back to being just a minority group scattered across dozens of countries is asking for the same conditions that led to all of the forced migrations, pogroms, and holocaust which necessitated the establishment of Israel as a sovereign state in the first place.

PopOfAfrica,

But that’s the thing. What does Palestinian apartheid have to do with any of it? It was thrusted upon them. Just doesn’t seem fair.

shish_mish,
@shish_mish@lemmy.world avatar

I imagine Ukraine’s resistance would become objectively horrible if the Russians were still there after decades, claiming more and more land, bulldozing homes and creating an Apartheid. I once watched a documentary about Palestine (one of many) and the documentary maker was talking to a Palestinian woman while children were playing in the background. The children were playing a game of being suicide bombers. The reporter asked the woman about the children’s game. She said that t the children had no hope for the future, their only hope for a better life was after death.

That really stuck with me. The Palestinian people have been treated like animals for generations by Israel, lied to, robbed, kept in poverty and forced to live in apartheid. I am not surprised they are fighting back. Yes, HAMAS are definitely bad guys too, but Israel is worse and till they are held to account over their behaviour and made to return Palestinian land and homes that have been illegally annexed ,things will not get better.

SCB,

If Hamas didn’t exist, life in Palestine would be totally different, so this is a bit of a misleading conciliation you’re making.

Rejecting peace deals then acting as if your rights are violated because you don’t have a peace deal, which then justifies your terrorism, is not something that helps the people of your nation

TheDankHold,

So if the Israeli military hadn’t funneled resources to Hamas in the 80s and 90s it’d be pretty different, good point. Maybe the moderate coalition would’ve been comparatively powerful enough to gain leadership instead of literal terrorists.

SCB, (edited )

Yeah that would’ve been great. Ideal, even.

Unfortunately the only thing to do now is completely dismantle Hamas. Current Israelis did not make this bed, but they’re the ones stuck sleeping in it.

gravitas_deficiency, (edited )

Israel was magicked into existence not very long ago(1948), immediately started breaking agreements and compacts

This is not really an accurate portrayal of events. Literally on the day that Israel was founded, Egypt, Transjordan, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, and Yemen launched an invasion - for those keeping score at home, that’s all of their neighbors at the time, plus some of the larger countries in the region. This immediate and unflinching antagonism - very specifically on the heels of Jewish people being subjected to the Holocaust, and in combination with rhetoric from their neighbors calling for “the eradication of Israel” - seems to have largely set the tone of Israeli-Arab relations since then, and Israel has fought more than one existential conflict against its neighbors since then.

Now, I’m not saying Israel is blameless here, nor am I saying that the UK/UN was blameless in arbitrarily drawing some lines on a map in a very geopolitically fraught area. But I do find the narrative that Israel is solely responsible for the situation in entirety to be woefully naive at best, and maliciously disingenuous at worst. Sure, they’ve made a LOT of bad calls over the years, but the situation cannot be placed entirely at the feet of Israel.

fkn,

That is a fair critique. Israel isn’t solely at fault, but they do share blame. It’s difficult to fit the entirety of the history, but from the Palestinian point of view what I said isn’t wrong. There may be confounding external causes, but Israel has absolutely been in the wrong from nearly the beginning of its existence.

There are arguments about preventing genocide that are valid, but most of these arguments start from racist ethnostate positions that have very little moral credibility.

Jakdracula,
@Jakdracula@lemmy.world avatar

yup

S_204,

How on earth do you claim Israel immediately started ‘breaking agreements’ when they were attacked on multiple fronts as soon as they became a country?

That’s some wild revisionist history.

Israel not only defended themselves but took land in the war. They then returned that land later on as a gesture of goodwill. Only to be attacked again and again…

Neon,

they’re both absolutely awful pieces of shit.

but here are my thoughts:

  • They’re both awful religious theocracies that want to exterminate the other side
  • Israel tends to leave citizens from other countries in peace, whereas Hamas has shown no mercy to germans or british citizens they’ve captured
  • Israeli soldiers don’t rape and parade prisoners
  • Israel has however been brutalizing Palestinians, with evidence of individual soldiers killing Palestinian children at random. It doesn’t seem to be Doctrine though. Israel also has Apartheid Structures discriminating against Palestinians
  • The People captured by Hamas mostly were in a Zone that the UN has declared to be illegally occupied by Israel
  • There are Reports of Hamas Fighters going around and rounding up civilians for mass-executions

So yeah, it is a really really complicated Situation with no clear good or bad side. My personal stance on this is:

  1. I hope the Israeli Military can free the hostages taken by Hamas and bring the Perpetrators of the Massacres we hear about to justice (if the Reports of the Massacres are true)
  2. I am afraid that the hard-line anti-Palestinian Government of Israel will use this as an excuse to terrorize Palestinians and make them suffer
  3. I hope that in the End the internationally recognized and agreed-upon borders will be restored. I do hope however, that it will not happen as a Consequence of this military action, as it would embolden the use of Terrorism, Massacres and Hostage-Taking as a negotiation Tactic.
Anticorp,

You said they’re both pieces of shit and then went on to outline how one group doesn’t commit the atrocities of the other group, and generally just wants to exist. They’re not the same.

MolochAlter,

TBF they didn’t say they were equally shit, just that they both were.

I could be tall and be 6’2" or 7’, still tall in both cases, but one is taller.

olafurp,

People on both sides just want to exists. Palestinians are suffocating under the occupation and vote for the “fuck them” party. Palestinians bite on the hand that’s hitting them and then Israelis vote for the “fuck them” party. Israelis bomb everything from apartments to hospitals in Gaza every now and then and Palestinian women get harassed at check points when they have to open the trunk of their car for soldiers.

This thing happening is beneficial to both parties in power to maintain power so going back to the status quo is actually very likely after Israel carpet bombs Gaza and rolls over them with tanks.

I mean, this is bad. It’s bad for everyone. It’s going to make everything 10x more tense and break down trust that Palestinians have been building with Israelis over the last 20 years. Even 40% of the left of the Knesset said they would be open for a government with Palestinian parties, up from 10% in 2017.

Then Hamas is royally fucking over West Bank Palestinians since they closed the check points and people can’t get to work, meet friends and vice versa for Palestinians living under Israeli rule.

I personally it’s wrong to support either since both violate human rights but please, doing something bad one time over 3 days is absolutely nothing compared to doing the same over 3 months for 70 years.

needthosepylons,
@needthosepylons@lemmy.world avatar

It’s been a long time since I’ve read such a sensible comment from this situation.

To OP, I don’t know how to put it, but I feel there’s no real side to pick, expect for zealots and fanatics. A colonizing oppressive state is 150% wrong. Execution of civilians and exploiting your people misery to lead them to a theocratic disaster is 150% wrong.

I’m from a both jew and muslim family and… I’m glad they feel the same way.

bouh,

Israel bombed some building in Palestine. The whole towers were flattened. That’s a war crime. Just because you do it with a fighter jet doesn’t make it more humane.

The apartheid is also a slow murder. I’d be interested to see statistics for all the people who died because of the blocus and the apartheid.

Omega_Haxors, (edited )

It’s not complicated. One side is doing a genocide, the other is resisting it. Screw everyone saying this is a complicated issue, it’s not. The only thing complicated about it is trying to justify it when you’re on the side of the Illegal Occupation of Palestine, because yes, it’s really ‘complicated’ to try and spin that like they’re not overwhelmingly in the wrong.

yawn,

You’re right. There’s zero Jewish representation in the Arab world while Arabs make up about 20% of the Israeli population (and hold positions of power within the country). Israel is a tolerant society while saud, Qatar, etc. are largely intolerant of Jewish existence (they genocided their own Jewish populations).

negativeyoda, (edited )

When Isreal openly advocates for Jews of other nationalities to come illegally occupy land that has supposedly been set aside for Palestinians they’re doing so to displace and replace them. How many resolutions about Palestine have been vetoed by only the US and Isreal with the rest of the world unilaterally telling Israel to cut it out? Shit, this one is from 7 years ago and was one of 18(!!!) similar resolutions against Isreal that year…

What Isreal is doing is genocide. I don’t for a minute condone all the methods Hamas is employing, but what’s happening is a predictable response from an increasingly desperate people

JWayn596,

Morally, it’s a complicated situation.

Geopolitically, Israel probably has the support of most Western nations simply due to the fact that they engage in diplomacy and have proper decorem, with a government system that is a relatively modern system despite political leanings.

Additionally, Israel has a better human rights record DOMESTICALLY than Palestine and the Gaza region. It’s still dominated by religion, terrorist leaders, and its own population’s semi-justified bitterness. Freedom of expression and freedom of press is heavily restricted, just like any other Islamic religious state in the middle east.

The sole responsibility of the escalation and subsequent destabilization of the region lies with Hamas. The sole responsibility of the withdrawal of Palestinian aid from countries like Austria, lies with Hamas.

And with all the videos popping up over the treatment and killing of Israeli civilians, it’s hard for the Western world, and especially Western governments to garner the sympathy for the Palestinian people that they had 1 week ago.

Both sidesing isn’t correct, whataboutism isn’t correct, blindly supporting either side isn’t correct, supporting efforts to contain the conflict is correct. The best way to do that is to monitor Israel’s progress in containing Hamas.

We know that Hamas hides in schools and civilian buildings, using their own civilians as a shield. That’s a warcrime it itself. So it’s going to be messy as hell.

The US sent the USS Gerald Ford into the Mediterranean as a deterrent. If any country starts to try to 3rd party the conflict, oh shit oh fuck WW1 vibes. That’s how tender this situation is.

And with 1 other active conflict in the world, this is shaky ground.

SportsRulesOpinions,
@SportsRulesOpinions@lemmy.world avatar

The Israel and Palestine situation is way too complicated to be left to “I support Israel.” Support in what way? Their existence? Their military campaigns? Their government? Their settlements? Everything they’ve ever done ever?

Do you then oppose everything done by people from Palestine? Do you then oppose the existence of Palestine?

In my opinion it’s not okay to leave your opinion as that simple. If that’s all you’ve got your opinion is bad because it’s simplistic, not because it supports a particular side.

StupidQuestionGuy,

I support Israel ownership of the Land they won in the War, their Settlements and their military campaigns. I dont support their goverment. (Sorry I thought that might be clear because i was talking about the Conflict itself not just about Israel as a State)

breadsmasher,
@breadsmasher@lemmy.world avatar

Just as something to think about, would you support the nazi and soviet campaign into poland, and the land they won from that?

Or the british empire winning land all over the globe?

StupidQuestionGuy,

This is exactly my Question! I’ve never learnd anything about this conflict in School or elsewhere. Is it that simple like Russia/Ukraine or Nazi-Germany/Poland?

otter,
@otter@lemmy.ca avatar

I think a big part of this is being open to having your opinions changed. This is true for me, even on topics that I know about and have years of experience with.

As for your main point, I’d like to reiterate again: You don’t need to pick a side, and you especially shouldn’t feel forced to pick a side when you have yet to learn more about the issue.

StupidQuestionGuy,

I will try! It just came up and I wasn’t sure about anything ._. Maybe I will just say “I dont know enough to have a stance” in the future.

McJonalds,

I just wanna say no matter your opinion, as long as it is followed by the openmindedness you just showed, you’re gonna be fine

Izzgo,

Maybe I will just say “I don't know enough to have a stance”

This is an amazing attitude, one more of us would be wise to adopt.

RIPandTERROR,
@RIPandTERROR@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Anyone that is familiar with that sentence immediately garners my respect

dinckelman,

Nothing about the Ukrainian-Russian conflict is simple. This is based on decades of disagreements, and it’s only becoming more complicated, because history is written by the loudest asshole around

Hanabie,
@Hanabie@sh.itjust.works avatar

It’s very simple actually. Russia invaded a souvereign country. The end.

dinckelman,

That is a factually correct statement, I never said it isn’t

TWeaK,

I mean it’s pretty simple to say that Russia invaded Ukraine. Twice.

dinckelman,

That I can’t deny. They are very clearly known for agitating their neighbors, and their nationalists causing mass chaos in places that they think belong to them

TWeaK,

Yeah Russia are pretty good at kicking the dirt up and spreading a lot of propaganda, but if you look at the hard points it’s pretty clear cut.

The same isn’t true of Israel and Palestine. Going through what each side has done to the other and trying to weigh it and figure out which side is worse is a futile exercise that does nothing to stop further violence from happening.

Hyperreality, (edited )

People will claim it is, but it really isn't. Honestly, you'll read a lot of biased answers here.

The safest bet is to condemn the rape, murder and torture of civilians, but accept that there are no 'good' guys in this conflict.

To give you an idea:

You'll read a lot of comments about how Israelis stole land from the Palestinian Arabs. But Palestinains also stole land from Palestinian Jews.

Many middle-eastern countries had significant Jewish populations before that, but almost all were forced to flee to Israel. Something like a third of Israelis are 'Arab' Jews or Mizrahi as the prefer to be called. They're not 'foreign invaders'. They're (the family of) locals or refugees from neighbouring countries.

Hamas are horrible, and what the last few days have been deplorable, but arguably Israel helped create them.

Also, recent right-wing Israeli governments have consistently undermined any hope of a peace deal, meaning there's no real alternative for Palestinians.

But, back in 2000 Israel did offer far reaching concessions to the Palestinians, so much so that IRC the Saudi ambassador said it would be a crime not to accept them or at least continue negotiating. But Arafat, the Palestinian leader at the time, did just that.

Also, neighbouring Arab countries claim to support Palestine, but often only on paper. When they accepted Palestinian refugees this caused them huge issues. For example in Lebanon:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damour_massacre

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karantina_massacre

Also, a lot of arab nationalist groups, including Palestinian ones, are virulently anti-semitic and have actual historical ties to the nazis who supported them in their fight against the colonial powers (Britain, France, etc.):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mein_Kampf_in_Arabic#Mein_Kampf_and_Arab_nationalism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husseini#Ties_with_the_Axis_Powers_during_World_War_II

But then the current Israeli government contains ultra-nationalists. One of the ministers once belonged to a banned far right terrorist organisation, labeled as such by the US and Israel. They were openly racist and supported terrorist attacks against Palestinians.

fkn, (edited )

Most of Israeli immigration has been from the former Soviet Union, not the middle East… Unless you count the FSU as the Middle East… Which depending on how you want to count things for displaced peoples may be valid… And it really kicked off in the early 70s.

jewishvirtuallibrary.org/total-immigration-to-isr…

Hyperreality, (edited )

not the middle East…

If you re-read my comment, you'll note I said that something like a third of Israelis are (originally from) from the middle-east or arab countries.

Wikipedia:

Mizrahi Jews (Hebrew: יהודי המִזְרָח), also known as Mizrahim (מִזְרָחִים) or Mizrachi (מִזְרָחִי) and alternatively referred to as Oriental Jews or Edot HaMizrach (עֲדוֹת-הַמִּזְרָח, lit. 'Communities of the East'),[2] are a grouping of Jewish communities comprising those who remained in the Land of Israel and those who existed in diaspora throughout and around the Middle East and North Africa (MENA) from biblical times into the modern era. ... Regions with significant populations ... Israel ... 3,200,000

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahi_Jews

3.2 million / 9.5 million = 33.7%.

Most of Israeli immigration has been from the former Soviet Union

Wikipedia:

Russians in Israel or Russian Israelis are post-Soviet Russian citizens who immigrate to Israel and their descendants. As of 2022, Russian-speakers number around 1,300,000 people, or 15% of the Israeli population. This number, however, also includes immigrants from the Soviet Union and post-Soviet states other than Russia proper.

So 33% from the MENA.

15% Soviet.

Ashkenazi(mainly Europe): 2.8 million / 9.5 = 29.4%

IRC the rest are non-Jews.

That took far too long to google, which is why most people debating the whole conflict simply don't bother. Why would they when they've already come to a conclusion and chosen a side? Why let the facts get in the way?

Honestly, this is why I'd rather swim in a septic tank, than spend too long debating the whole thing.

captainlezbian,

It’s closer to United States vs indigenous Americans

letsroll,
@letsroll@kbin.social avatar

Israel’s wars have been defensive.

breadsmasher,
@breadsmasher@lemmy.world avatar

That wasn’t part of the question/example. I was responding to “land won in war”

NoneOfUrBusiness,

Uh... Since you seem new to the topic, I'd recommend you look up Israeli treatment of Palestinians in Gaza, the West Bank, East Palestine and Israel proper (they're all bad for different reasons, but the order of badness goes like this), and how the settlement process works. Note: It usually involves Palestinians being forced off their homes.

mxl,

Maybe think if by the same logic you also support Russia’s “ownership” of Crimea and Eastern Ukranine territory. If you don’t support that, then maybe you’ve been propaganded.

Gorgeous_Sloth,

People supporting a side like it’s a bloody football match

Frog-Brawler,
@Frog-Brawler@kbin.social avatar

They are both wrong and they are both right. Up until this past week, I tended to be more sympathetic towards Palestine. Unfortunately, the most recent terrorist attack by Hamas was against more than just Israel or its military. It was a terrorist attack at a music festival, and Hamas attacked citizens of multiple nations.

It’s a lot easier to support Israel right now. It sounds like they’re about to commit their own atrocities though, so you might have to flip your position tomorrow.

Kyrgizion,

Both sides suck. Any more elaboration is likely to piss off a lot of people, so let’s keep it simple.

madcaesar,

Both suck for different reasons.

But also both are doing damage on different scales…

The whole thing sucks.

AstridWipenaugh,

Israel responded by blowing up mosques and apartment buildings. They cut off power to everything, including hospitals. They’re blockading to prevent any supplies from entering Gaza. Both sides are committing war crimes and intentionally targeting civilians. Nobody is right here. Supporting either side is encouraging a religious war.

GBU_28,

The problem is hamas hides amongst the population, knowing that if Israel hits them, civilians will die too, further fanning the flames.

Those dead civilians obviously radicalize survivors, adding to the ranks. The uninvolved civilians have no power to remove hamas from their space, so their fate is coupled.

This is no comment on the demolitions or other general brutality Israel has been up to, just a discussion on how hamas operates

Azzu, (edited )

That’s mostly because of logistics, they have much less resources, Israel is supported majorly by the US, Israel has stuff like the Iron Dome. If Palestine/Hamas would set up any dedicated posts, they’d simply be bombed to oblivion, and that would be that. If they want to fight, being covert about it is their literal only choice.

Still shitty of course, but I’m pretty sure they don’t want to do it if there were any better alternatives to keep the fight up.

Neon,

The other Problem is that Israel is using Civilians as Settlers to establish a Claim in illegally occupied territories (determined so by the UN, not me)

just to be very clear: fuck Hamas and all the shit they did, and i hope that they pay very very heavily for all the atrocities they’ve committed. But i just wanted to show you, that noone in the Region really takes international law seriously

HaggierRapscallier,

Problem is Hamas is Israel’s own creation. They funnelled them money.

TheBananaKing,

Israel has been a huge crybully virtually since it was founded. It’s been annexing Palestinian land from the beginning, running a shitty apartheid state, committing ongoing slow genocide on the Palestinian people, then crying the innocent victim whenever they hit back - and guzzling unlimited billions in US military aid to do so.

Hurt people hurt people, and oppression breeds radicalism. Hamas are not nice people, but they’re from a place where nice people don’t live long enough to matter. As with any abusive relationship, there’s going to be toxic coping mechanisms as a result, and it’s important to acknowledge that it’s not okay to do those things.

But Israel (the country, not the people) sure as hell rakes in a lot of money and influence from being constantly under threat from the mean nasty baddies that they just have to keep oppressing and killing and oh look more money.

Hamas is awful. But still and all, fuck Israel.

MataVatnik,

This is the correct answer. Israel could end this tomorrow if they choose to, so it’s their prerogative to do it. But their supremacist and racist ideology with their expansionist goals they will never do what needs to be done, and while I get saying that the people are the victims here, there is a lot of support for the state of Israel coming not just from its citizens but from all Jewish communities around the word. If these people don’t take responsibility, reform their toxic, hateful, and extremist ideology, and don’t do what needs to be done to solve this problem, then I have a hard time drumming up sympathy. A lot of Israelites are western immigrants with money, they can leave whenever they want, people in Palestine are essentially in an open air prison where it’s really difficult to enter or leave.

atrielienz,

Israel wouldn’t have the means to do the massive amounts of damage it has done without help. Specifically help from the US. Who I blame for a good portion of the atrocities committed. It’s our weaponry being used in quite a lot of cases. And the death toll from that weaponry is significantly high. This is why I don’t want my government trying to “help”. And every single time I say that we should stay out of it people accuse me of somehow being for Israel or for the status quo. But in the long run, US war profiteering only helps people who commit atrocities.

CrypticFawn,
@CrypticFawn@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Fuck Hamas as well. 😉

Astroturfed,

deleted_by_moderator

    •
    MicrosoftSam,

    Israeli here: All we want is to live in peace. We welcome your support in this incredibly difficult time, after having suffered the most devastating attack our small nation has ever seen. Wishing everyone quiet, peaceful days as soon as possible.

    doublejay1999,
    @doublejay1999@lemmy.world avatar

    “All we want is to live in peace”.

    I’m sure you do, but the actions of your government tell a very different story.

    dumdum666, (edited )

    The actions of Israel’s government don’t give anyone the right to murder civilians and on top of that parading their broken and mutilated bodies through the streets while a crowd is loudly screaming and spitting at them.

    TheDankHold,

    And that’s how Palestinians feel about the decades of reprisals Israel has inflicted upon them because of Hamas.

    It doesn’t give them the right to bomb hospitals and apartment buildings. It doesn’t give them the right to gun down journalists and children. It doesn’t give them the right to evict Palestinians from their homes to send in colonists for replacement. It doesn’t give them the right to turn what should be a separate country like Gaza into a literal open air prison where they can cut their power and water and they need to have Israel approve an exit pass to leave their homes and go anywhere else in the world.

    Neither average citizen wants this bullshit to happen. But it’s not up to them, it’s up to a terrorist organization and a government that literally funded Hamas in the 80s and 90s so that the moderate coalition didn’t win. The one going into mosques to rough up and arrest random practitioners. I feel for every citizen in both territories, just know that war mongers in your government have contributed massively to these tragedies.

    The extremists in your government had a large hand in creating the group that’s now slaughtering innocents and giving them an excuse to glass the people they look down on.

    dumdum666,

    The extremists in your government had a large hand in creating the group that’s now slaughtering innocents and giving them an excuse to glass the people they look down on.

    What makes you think that I am from Israel? I am from Europe.

    My support for the people committing those murders AND those that cheer over broken and mutilated corpses is ZERO. I am pretty sure that I am not the only one outside the Middle East that feels this way, because of the terrorist attack.

    And on a sidenote: You can shove that „Israel had it coming“ where the sun don’t shine.

    TheDankHold,

    I mistook you for the original commenter, I apologize.

    With that out of the way. You’re right that people who murder innocents don’t deserve support, which is why I condemn Hamas and the Israeli government. Good attempt at conflating my criticism with Israel as a whole but that’s manipulative framing. The Israeli government has taken plenty of actions that directly prop up Hamas and even share responsibility for its initial rise.

    As an American, the Israeli government caused this in a similar way that the American government caused 9/11. Much like Israel and Hamas, American government invested in Al Qaeda in the 80s to accomplish a selfish geopolitical goal and it ended up with a massive terrorist attack on their home soil.

    It’s awful and reprehensible that innocent people are being killed, no caveat. I’m just not so easily blinded by shock and emotion that I can’t identify the underlying causes that drive this inhumane clusterfuck forward.

    I’m willing to keep talking if you’re willing to not assume the worst of my position instead of seeking clarification. What Hamas did was disgusting.

    doublejay1999,
    @doublejay1999@lemmy.world avatar

    Unles their action were murdering civilians , perhaps.

    dumdum666,

    This is not a fucking tit for tat situation you vile human being

    doublejay1999,
    @doublejay1999@lemmy.world avatar

    It would seem that is exactly what it is.

    FMT99,

    Well then perhaps you should tell Israel’s government to stop murdering civilians. Oh I know they say it’s all in self defense but you have to be pretty wilfully blind to accept that.

    dumdum666,

    This is not a fucking tit for tat situation you vile human being

    FMT99,

    That’s how Israel had been treating it for decades. I’m happy to agree that Hamas’ behavior is vile. Do you agree that Israel’s behavior is equally vile? Probably not. Israel’s violence is always “justified”, the enemy’s is always “vile”.

    bingbong,

    All we want is to live in peace.

    Every human being on the planet claims this. Actions speak louder though, and point in the opposite direction. Israel cannot systematically oppress an entire population and expect them to lay down and be slowly eradicated from the face of this planet.

    I’m not commenting on whether or not you as an individual want peace, but massive portions of the state of Israel demonstrably wants to control the entire state of Palestine, and have proven that they will engage in violence to ensure that goal is achieved.

    I commend you for wanting peace, but Israel cannot achieve peace when they are currently in the process of implementing collective punishment on all Palestinians in Gaza for the actions of Hamas, IJ, Iran, and Hezbollah. I’m sure there is a significant amount of Israelis that are against this, but I wouldn’t be surprised if a majority approve.

    Israeli here: All we want is to live in peace.

    I sincerely hope for that to be true, and hope that peace is achieved within our lifetime. However, it cannot be achieved with increasingly violent retributions from each side. Hamas made it very clear that their abhorrent behavior is a direct response to Israel and its settler’s abhorrent behavior. Israel can stop settlements and raiding Al-Aqsa at any time. Unless it does just that, it is obvious that it is not interested in peace.

    iridaniotter,
    @iridaniotter@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    No, it is not OK to support Israel. They’re a genocidal state. You should support Palestine or at least be a coward and stay out of talking about it.

    Sauvandu59,

    no.

    youtu.be/FhlUFPpXIVo

    Chocrates,

    I would encourage you to read up a little on it but some bullet points as I understand it:

    • Hamas is a terrorist group that has abducted and killed civilians
    • Israel is not Judeism
    • "the west" has been colonizing Palestine since the fall of the Ottomans post WW1 and displacing the indigenous Palestinians
    • it is accurate to call Gaza and “open air prison” and they get 4 hours of electricity a day during peacetime
    Epicurus0319, (edited )

    Dog shit vs. cat shit; neither Israel nor Hamas give a shit about the well-being, territorial integrity or human rights of the other’s people. Now, as for Ukraine and Russia the latter is obviously in the wrong- anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves.

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