Is it okay to support Israel?

Hello I just created this Account for this Question. Is it okay to support Israel in the middle east conflict? I’m from Europe and have no ties at all to any Side. Its just that I lean more to the Side of Israel then any other. Is this okay? Is it up to debate which Side is to support or is one of them clearly in the Wrong? (Like Russia is in the Wrong attacking Ukraine or Germany attacking Polland 1939).

EDIT: For clarification: Im talking about their Settlements and their military campaigns NOT about their government.

If this Post is too political please remove and I’m deeply sorry for that.

Astroturfed,

deleted_by_moderator

    •
    nandeEbisu,

    If you are comfortable with your understanding of the situation and arguing for whichever side you choose to support instead of just refusing to hear anything to the contrary then support whoever you want.

    Just know this isn’t like a sports team where there’s only superficial differences. It’s also ok to say I’m not informed enough to take one side or the other, or maybe only lean one way. You can point to unethical behavior on both sides, but I think it’s not unreasonable for people to hold one side more at blame than the other. Look into the history of the region and the ongoing discussion.

    clothes,

    Thanks for being perhaps the only comment here trying to be helpful to those who aren’t deeply familiar with the conflict.

    I think an important emphasis here is that people shouldn’t accept explanations of the situation that make things easy to understand.

    Omega_Haxors, (edited )

    There’s a pretty big asymmetry between the shit the Illegal Occupation of Palestine does, and the limited resistance attempts of Hamas.

    Also, Hamas would have never existed if their people weren’t constantly under genocide, so fuck everyone here both-sidesing this.

    sailingbythelee,

    You are attempting to make a notoriously difficult and nuanced conflict into a simplistic black-and-white issue with your useless and insulting virtue signaling. So, what can one say to your comment? Fuck you, too, I guess? Grow up. There are two sides here, each with their legitimate interests and concerns. Geopolitics is hard, dumb-ass.

    Omega_Haxors,

    “Lets have some nuance” people on their way to defend nazi war criminals

    RIotingPacifist,

    You ever wonder what it would be like if you had self-esteem & were proud of your values instead of complaining about others having virtues?

    half_built_pyramids,

    psaltery

    noun

    an ancient and medieval musical instrument like a dulcimer but played by plucking the strings with the fingers or a plectrum.

    Omega_Haxors,

    yeah idk what happened there chief.

    RIotingPacifist,

    Also Hamas was empowered by the Israeli state by the distruction of secular opposition.

    Not disimilar to how the US armed the Taliban & created a power vacuum for them to fill

    samus12345,
    @samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

    But whatabout the US??

    RIotingPacifist,

    It’s an apt comparison, there aren’t many examples so on the nose about deliberately destabilizing secular groups and Islamist groups filling the power vacuum, only to become a more violent threat.

    If you want you could compare it to the allied powers starving the Spanish Republic of resources, enabling the rise of the Nazis, but it’s a bit of a stretch.

    samus12345,
    @samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

    Sure, but so what? Nobody was talking about the US here.

    RIotingPacifist,

    Ok do you understand what an analogue is?

    Perhaps Lemmy needs a “translate to simple English feature for you”

    h3mlocke,

    🤦‍♀️

    doktorseven,

    Support peace. It is the only correct stance. There is zero reason for conflict, find a peaceful resolution.

    CrypticFawn,
    @CrypticFawn@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    Peace can only be achieved once one side has been destroyed, for the simple fact that neither can tolerate the others existence.

    I wish peace was a viable option, but it just isn’t.

    bouh,

    Yet if you’re not part of the conflict there’s no reason to support one side over the other.

    spiderplant,

    Yeah there is. If you’re antifascist and anti-imperialist you should support the oppressed people.

    If you don’t side explicitly against fascist states and American imperialism then you support it.

    bouh,

    And support terrorism? Tell me how will these large scale attack make life better for Palestinians?

    spiderplant,

    Terrorism or liberation?

    How will the opposite help?

    Injustice can happen under peace, so peace is not the answer. Peace is the language of the oppressor, liberation and justice is the language of the oppressed.

    Also if America backs someone and calls their opponents terrorists even through they funded them, does that mean the opponents are actually terrorists?

    bouh,

    What liberation will there be here? Do you expect the hamas to win anything against Israel? They would fight actual military targets if they could win anything.

    Can you tell what this show of violence from the hamas will bring to Palestine? What will Palestine earn from this?

    I’m all for fighting oppression. But I’m skeptical of sacrificing people for nothing.

    Yes Israel is a fascist and terrorist country. And the US are hypocrite to support them. That being said, will a shower of rockets on civilians change any of that? No, on the contrary.

    If any, Israel is the only one that will win from this new war.

    spiderplant,

    The US aren’t hypocrites when they support fascist states its what they’ve always done unless public support hasn’t let them.

    Hamas isn’t Palestine. I expect when the people rise up together they will win. There are way more organisations than Hama’s currently in this fight btw.

    Last I’ve seen is that the Palestinian offensive is 10 km away from splitting Israel in two. We’ll see what the situation is when the dust settles.

    For the moment I will continue to uncritically support the Palestinian struggle and call out those that don’t because they support genocide as the status quo.

    Ataraxia,

    It’s terrorism when you attack civilians. It’s liberation when you attack the military. I mean they must not give a shit about getting any kind of support because it looks really bad when you murder and kidnap people from a music festival especially when many of them were foreigners. That passes everyone off. And the Palestinians are gonna get murdered for it. I’m sure the ireaeli government is just giddy to have a huge excuse for their current invasion… the Gaza strip really needs to become a neutral zone at this point lol…

    spiderplant,

    Even if they only hit military targets they would still be labeled as terrorists. You need a different word that hasn’t been massively overused.

    If the support is conditional its not really support.

    Did you even do any research before you came up with this bulshit liberal stance? The Gaza Strip a neutral zone? That’s like saying Israel needs to become a neutral zone.

    nandeEbisu, (edited )

    I think that’s good advice for social situations, but if you truly believe there is genocide occurring, or exploitation, then there is nothing wrong with supporting one side over the other.

    Dkarma,

    It is. If Israel moves.

    SpicyLizards, (edited )

    Damn, should have told them sooner!

    I think everyone loves hummus however.

    iridaniotter,
    @iridaniotter@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    No, it is not OK to support Israel. They’re a genocidal state. You should support Palestine or at least be a coward and stay out of talking about it.

    Sauvandu59,

    no.

    youtu.be/FhlUFPpXIVo

    Chocrates,

    I would encourage you to read up a little on it but some bullet points as I understand it:

    • Hamas is a terrorist group that has abducted and killed civilians
    • Israel is not Judeism
    • "the west" has been colonizing Palestine since the fall of the Ottomans post WW1 and displacing the indigenous Palestinians
    • it is accurate to call Gaza and “open air prison” and they get 4 hours of electricity a day during peacetime
    Epicurus0319, (edited )

    Dog shit vs. cat shit; neither Israel nor Hamas give a shit about the well-being, territorial integrity or human rights of the other’s people. Now, as for Ukraine and Russia the latter is obviously in the wrong- anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves.

    Anticorp,

    Of course it’s okay to support Israel, unless you live under Sharia Law, in which case no, it’s probably a death sentence to do so. Israeli and foreign nationals who were attacked, kidnapped, raped, and killed were just living their lives. The Hamas is a fundamentalist extremist religious group dedicated to the destruction and eradication of an entire people who just want to exist in their own country.

    Neon,

    they’re both absolutely awful pieces of shit.

    but here are my thoughts:

    • They’re both awful religious theocracies that want to exterminate the other side
    • Israel tends to leave citizens from other countries in peace, whereas Hamas has shown no mercy to germans or british citizens they’ve captured
    • Israeli soldiers don’t rape and parade prisoners
    • Israel has however been brutalizing Palestinians, with evidence of individual soldiers killing Palestinian children at random. It doesn’t seem to be Doctrine though. Israel also has Apartheid Structures discriminating against Palestinians
    • The People captured by Hamas mostly were in a Zone that the UN has declared to be illegally occupied by Israel
    • There are Reports of Hamas Fighters going around and rounding up civilians for mass-executions

    So yeah, it is a really really complicated Situation with no clear good or bad side. My personal stance on this is:

    1. I hope the Israeli Military can free the hostages taken by Hamas and bring the Perpetrators of the Massacres we hear about to justice (if the Reports of the Massacres are true)
    2. I am afraid that the hard-line anti-Palestinian Government of Israel will use this as an excuse to terrorize Palestinians and make them suffer
    3. I hope that in the End the internationally recognized and agreed-upon borders will be restored. I do hope however, that it will not happen as a Consequence of this military action, as it would embolden the use of Terrorism, Massacres and Hostage-Taking as a negotiation Tactic.
    Anticorp,

    You said they’re both pieces of shit and then went on to outline how one group doesn’t commit the atrocities of the other group, and generally just wants to exist. They’re not the same.

    MolochAlter,

    TBF they didn’t say they were equally shit, just that they both were.

    I could be tall and be 6’2" or 7’, still tall in both cases, but one is taller.

    olafurp,

    People on both sides just want to exists. Palestinians are suffocating under the occupation and vote for the “fuck them” party. Palestinians bite on the hand that’s hitting them and then Israelis vote for the “fuck them” party. Israelis bomb everything from apartments to hospitals in Gaza every now and then and Palestinian women get harassed at check points when they have to open the trunk of their car for soldiers.

    This thing happening is beneficial to both parties in power to maintain power so going back to the status quo is actually very likely after Israel carpet bombs Gaza and rolls over them with tanks.

    I mean, this is bad. It’s bad for everyone. It’s going to make everything 10x more tense and break down trust that Palestinians have been building with Israelis over the last 20 years. Even 40% of the left of the Knesset said they would be open for a government with Palestinian parties, up from 10% in 2017.

    Then Hamas is royally fucking over West Bank Palestinians since they closed the check points and people can’t get to work, meet friends and vice versa for Palestinians living under Israeli rule.

    I personally it’s wrong to support either since both violate human rights but please, doing something bad one time over 3 days is absolutely nothing compared to doing the same over 3 months for 70 years.

    needthosepylons,
    @needthosepylons@lemmy.world avatar

    It’s been a long time since I’ve read such a sensible comment from this situation.

    To OP, I don’t know how to put it, but I feel there’s no real side to pick, expect for zealots and fanatics. A colonizing oppressive state is 150% wrong. Execution of civilians and exploiting your people misery to lead them to a theocratic disaster is 150% wrong.

    I’m from a both jew and muslim family and… I’m glad they feel the same way.

    bouh,

    Israel bombed some building in Palestine. The whole towers were flattened. That’s a war crime. Just because you do it with a fighter jet doesn’t make it more humane.

    The apartheid is also a slow murder. I’d be interested to see statistics for all the people who died because of the blocus and the apartheid.

    Omega_Haxors, (edited )

    It’s not complicated. One side is doing a genocide, the other is resisting it. Screw everyone saying this is a complicated issue, it’s not. The only thing complicated about it is trying to justify it when you’re on the side of the Illegal Occupation of Palestine, because yes, it’s really ‘complicated’ to try and spin that like they’re not overwhelmingly in the wrong.

    yawn,

    You’re right. There’s zero Jewish representation in the Arab world while Arabs make up about 20% of the Israeli population (and hold positions of power within the country). Israel is a tolerant society while saud, Qatar, etc. are largely intolerant of Jewish existence (they genocided their own Jewish populations).

    negativeyoda, (edited )

    When Isreal openly advocates for Jews of other nationalities to come illegally occupy land that has supposedly been set aside for Palestinians they’re doing so to displace and replace them. How many resolutions about Palestine have been vetoed by only the US and Isreal with the rest of the world unilaterally telling Israel to cut it out? Shit, this one is from 7 years ago and was one of 18(!!!) similar resolutions against Isreal that year…

    What Isreal is doing is genocide. I don’t for a minute condone all the methods Hamas is employing, but what’s happening is a predictable response from an increasingly desperate people

    JWayn596,

    Morally, it’s a complicated situation.

    Geopolitically, Israel probably has the support of most Western nations simply due to the fact that they engage in diplomacy and have proper decorem, with a government system that is a relatively modern system despite political leanings.

    Additionally, Israel has a better human rights record DOMESTICALLY than Palestine and the Gaza region. It’s still dominated by religion, terrorist leaders, and its own population’s semi-justified bitterness. Freedom of expression and freedom of press is heavily restricted, just like any other Islamic religious state in the middle east.

    The sole responsibility of the escalation and subsequent destabilization of the region lies with Hamas. The sole responsibility of the withdrawal of Palestinian aid from countries like Austria, lies with Hamas.

    And with all the videos popping up over the treatment and killing of Israeli civilians, it’s hard for the Western world, and especially Western governments to garner the sympathy for the Palestinian people that they had 1 week ago.

    Both sidesing isn’t correct, whataboutism isn’t correct, blindly supporting either side isn’t correct, supporting efforts to contain the conflict is correct. The best way to do that is to monitor Israel’s progress in containing Hamas.

    We know that Hamas hides in schools and civilian buildings, using their own civilians as a shield. That’s a warcrime it itself. So it’s going to be messy as hell.

    The US sent the USS Gerald Ford into the Mediterranean as a deterrent. If any country starts to try to 3rd party the conflict, oh shit oh fuck WW1 vibes. That’s how tender this situation is.

    And with 1 other active conflict in the world, this is shaky ground.

    Kusimulkku,

    I’m not sure what sort of answer you’re looking for since it depends from person to person.

    mojo,

    I’m too uninformed so I just put my hands in the air and say idk. It’s really fucked on both ends.

    Resol,
    @Resol@lemmy.world avatar

    Both sides have done some pretty serious war crimes against the other. I think it’s best to just stay neutral on this one.

    TheDarkKnight,

    You can support the side of peace for all people regardless of Palestine or Israel. Civilians should be left alone and both sides have committed atrocities against the other. Fucking awful situation.

    ReginaPhalange,

    Speaking as an Israeli, both sides are fuckwits.
    Don’t support either side.

    Our fight in this world, is not against islam, it’s against religion.

    Jim jeffries.

    Support critical rational evidence based thinking, and you made the world a tiny bit better.

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