Why is everyone so giddy about the flooding thay happened at burning man?

Social media seems to be laughing its ass off about this tragedy, is it because the folks at burning man are perceived as frivolous hippies or something? Everyone I’ve ever met who was a regular burning man attendee has been a solid human being with strong morals, personally and financially responsible, a career. Upstanding members of society for sure. I guess all some people know is the sensationalized drugs and sex. A person died. This is a tragedy for an event that brings positivity into the world. Kind of annoyed.

lord_ryvan,

I’m just appalled at these comments!

Why does it matter what the festival represents or not?
Why does it matter if you stamd for or against it?

There was a flood, people got hurt, someone even died.
And people are laughing at it?
And ridiculing it‽

Where is the respect?

mysoulishome,
@mysoulishome@lemmy.world avatar

We are just here to show how good and smart we are and how bad and dumb everyone else is

uxia,

there is a regional burn they have every year in my state, i went for like 6 years straight in the 2010s … my fav part was walking around nekkid lol. i also participated in the fire performance ceremony before the burn. but then they modified the rules to allow children to attend and i haven’t gone since. :<

it only cost $30 and was a great fun and awesome time, as long as you took care of your MOOP!!! (and stay hydrated!)

the big burning man festival from what i understand lost the true spirit a long ass time ago.

mysoulishome,
@mysoulishome@lemmy.world avatar

Interesting. What is moop?

regalia,

It just rich boomers. I’ve never met anyone under 50 who talked about burning man.

cypherpunks, (edited )
@cypherpunks@lemmy.ml avatar

i’m not one to defend burning man, and there have been a lot of billionaires there for years, but you are mistaken about the age demographics:

https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/2c2e26c3-b595-47d5-921e-dc5f2905fb92.png

https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/45dd4d83-f4f9-4782-b7f7-9e72c8ef51c8.png

via blackrockcitycensus.org

(I used to think I would go one day but i realized over a decade ago that i was no longer tempted to…)

I_Fart_Glitter,

There is a really adorable contingent of old people there. One of their camps is called "The Shack of Sit. They provide a shack… where you can go and sit. They also do the “little black dress parade” where all these 65+ men and women wear short and sexy black dresses and play marching band instruments on their way around promenade. It’s so sweet.

I_Fart_Glitter,

Did we just collectively decide that gen X are now boomers? Or are we just going to perpetually call everyone over 50 a boomer?

regalia,

Yeah everyone over 50 is a boomer now

SnowdenHeroOfOurTime,

what an idiot. your misuse of the term boomer indicates you’re probably around 15.

dipshit,

Fuck your burn!

It’s not a tragedy, it’s life on the playa. Every participant knows this. The back of the ticket states that you could die out there. Part of it is survival. Radical self reliance.

These aren’t opinions, these are facts. Radical self reliance is one of the 10 principals of burning man.

mysoulishome,
@mysoulishome@lemmy.world avatar

Thanks for the information

dipshit, (edited )

Anytime! I should also clarify, “fuck your burn” means what it sounds like, but it’s also a pretty common thing to hear at the event. That’s not because everyone’s sarcastic or everyone’s mean. It’s that everyone’s everyone and that means what it means.

I’ll say that when it rains at the event it is a magical experience. Imagine that you’ve been in the desert for days, you’re dusty as hell and tired, hot, dirty. You long for a shower or running water maybe… and all of the sudden, you get a fine mist or a little bit of rain and you hear people start making noise and dancing in the rain.

This much water is obviously different, but there’s this sense of being in this predicament together and the community itself is built on giving, so likely others are helping where they can. In the absolute worst case scenarios, they can air lift people out of the event to a hospital in reno. I think for the most part this is just a big story for people to tell.

Also, sorry I just read that someone died at the event. Sadly this happens sometimes, for various reasons. I’ll say that during the big burn, there’s a group of volunteers who’s job it is to surround the fire, facing the crowd and physically take down anyone who runs toward the fire in an attempt to end their life.

z00s,

deleted_by_moderator

    •
    JohnnyEnzyme,

    Rain at a festival isn’t.

    That’s pretty much stripping all relevant context from the situation. The rains are absolutely a big deal for a special campout-celebration that’s held in a fairly hostile natural location, with ground that becomes disastrous in terms of movement when there’s heavy rain.

    It would be one thing if BM was just a frivolous celebration, but it’s heavily art-oriented, creative in nature, and meaningful for a whole bunch of folks who are trying to engage in something special once a year. So it’s not The Holocaust, no, but more than just the loss of the festival, there’s still some real danger going on for hundreds of folks right now.

    aesthelete,

    BM

    I approve of this abbreviation.

    dipshit,

    When you camp on a lakebed, you’re going to be camping in a lake sometimes.

    JohnnyEnzyme,

    AFAIK it’s a dried-up lake bed that rarely experiences this kind of thing during BM week.

    Maybe I’m wrong, tho.

    dipshit, (edited )

    rarely

    And yes, when rain rains on a dried lake bed (playa, not “beach” in spanish), you get lake.

    Climate change means the cilmate will not stay the same.

    It’s rained a bit while I was there years back, but not to this extent. Not that it wasn’t always a possibility though.

    JohnnyEnzyme,

    Climate change means the cilmate will not stay the same.

    Pard, you sure as shootin’ got that part right.

    And I’ve barely been following this year’s event at all. If heavy rains were indeed predicted, then it seems to me that at the very least, the organisers have some pretty colossal questions to answer.

    dipshit,

    Huh?

    We can’t predict weather past about 7 days at best. “We” meaning humanity, “weather” meaning weather (not climate). I am pretty sure we can’t forecast how climate will change.

    But the organizers of the event having pretty colossal questions to answer makes little sense to me in regards to flooding. BM was held on the beach in california until the gathering got too big and moved to the desert. The BLM gives BRC (BM) a permit each year (so far) and limits the population - they also controll ingress and egress to BRC. The gate to BM is sometimes closed whilst people are still in line, because the population has reached capacity. Population being something on the order of 75k each year, a lot les than coachella.

    But again, burning man is a temporary event that creates a temporary city (BRC, black rock city), each year, come rain or snow. You really cannot come to this event and expect everything to go exactly as planned. There is medical (free medical, actually) there, but that doesn’t mean you can count on them to save your life. You should bring 1 gallon of water per person per day you plan on attending, at least, you should bring more meds than you think you’d need, etc… etc… It’s survival.

    Heads will not roll because the rain happened. Nothing new about being told to shelter in place - when it rains even a bit on the playa, this happens. It just hasn’t happened to this extent, but there’s always a first for everything.

    JohnnyEnzyme,

    Much of what I’ve read confirms things you’re saying, and to be clear, I’ve never been there myself. I’ve only read about the event, including first-hand accounts, and seen video footage.

    My point about the rain is that in the immediate days preceding the event, surely the organisers had a chance to examine the weather report and realise that at the very least, a strong advisory should have been sent out, or maybe even the festival cancelled. Also, is it possible they didn’t know how treacherous the soil there could get with heavy rain?

    dipshit,

    This is where burning man differs a little bit from other festivals. A good start to understanding this would be to actually read the terms and conditions of the event:

    1. Event Ingress and Egress. Due to the Event’s remote location, the vehicle capacity limitations of the roads leading to it, and restrictions placed by BLM on maximum population at the Event, I understand that I may be subject to lengthy delays in entering and departing the Event. I will be prepared for long waits on the playa during both ingress and egress (Exodus). I understand that if my vehicle is disabled or abandoned on Gate Road while entering or leaving the Event, my vehicle may be towed out of the traffic lanes, and I expressly release BMP and its agents from liability for any damage to my vehicle that may result from the towing process.

    In short: the BLM controls when you enter and exit the event.

    My point about the rain is that in the immediate days preceding the event, surely the organisers had a chance to examine the weather report and realise that at the very least, a strong advisory should have been sent out, or maybe even the festival cancelled.

    That’s just not how this works, but let me be more clear. BRC is a city, with a working post office, medical, a small power grid, and multiple law enforcement agencies. The city starts being built a few months ahead of time. By building, I mean building, as in sometimes there are large steel structures that need to be brought in with large semi-trucks to build multiple story buildings.

    Because the event is mostly put on by participants and not the festival itself, every festival-goer (called participants) is encouraged to “radically self-express” or otherwise give to the community in their own way. Musicians and DJs perform, Artists create art, groups of people create camps and put on their own events. There’s a guide you’re given at the beginning of the event with a directory of these events put on by various camps - they aren’t a part of burning man, they ARE burning man. The organization itself just creates the infrastructure for the event, the participants organize the event.

    What this means is that there are a few large camps which put up big stages and sound systems, or art cars (some of which are travelling sound systems and dance floors), and these need to be setup prior to the event. So, these large camps (or even smaller camps) have members which apply for something called “early arrival” which lets you arrive a few days prior to when gate opens and the rest of the participants arrive.

    My point in saying all of this is that there is not only momentum of multiple months work going into getting the event setup, but that work and stake is spread across most of the ticket holders.

    Even if burning man was cancelled the moment there was rain, it would still mean there are people there who need to do the work of removing all the gear brought in, waiting until BLM allows them to do so, and waiting for BLM to tell them when they can leave, or just fending for themselves if BLM officers leave early. But one thing is for sure - if that stuff isn’t removed from the desert, the organization can count on not having BLM issue a permit again for the next year - the only reason they keep issuing permits is because of the massive effort that goes into restoring the land to it’s original condtion (“leave no trace”).

    Then we have things like 4th of Juplaya, which is in the spirit of how burning man started: at the same location, around the 4th of july, people just show up and start partying. No tickets are sold, it’s not a formal event. It’s just a place where people show up and party. People camping in near darkness and also people driving as fast as their cars can on the desert playa, while lighting off fireworks, mad max style. Something tells me that people would still come to 4th of Juplaya even it flooded, but that’s just a guess.

    Also, is it possible they didn’t know how treacherous the soil there could get with heavy rain?

    It’s well known in the burning man community that playa when wet is impassible. Sometimes gate gets shut down because of this. This was the case when I was there a few years back for early arrival. It rained a bit, and got muddy, gate was shut for a day or so and then opened back up.

    It’s not soil, it’s a very fine alkaline dust and it gets very muddy when wet. Forget driving, forget riding a bike, you’re going to have problems walking.

    JohnnyEnzyme,

    Thanks for the extensive writeup, and if I understand you correctly, there’s more or less way too much momentum of various kinds for any group in particular to call the event off even knowing that harsh weather was about to hit.

    So if you’re a participant you can acknowledge that this year’s event kind of sucked, but that it was still worth it on the whole. Do I have that right?

    One other thing-- I notice some people calling the event a ‘rich person’s event,’ as if to imply the whole thing is frivolous, and that it’s of no consequence that this one was ‘rained out.’ Thoughts?

    dipshit,

    Thanks for the extensive writeup, and if I understand you correctly, there’s more or less way too much momentum of various kinds for any group in particular to call the event off even knowing that harsh weather was about to hit.

    Think of it this way: BLM controls when you can enter or leave the city, so if you’re there and the gate is closed, you aren’t leaving anyway until it opens.

    Even if you’re just going to go and have no idea what you’re going to do, just as a solo camper, you’re probably going to want to start planning for your trip a year in advance. Tents don’t work so well on the desert (they get stupid hot), but building a monkeyhut shade structure helps! Or a hexayurt, or a geodesic dome. Once you arrive you can’t drive anywhere, so is your bike in good working condition with big fat tires? Do you have a bike repair kit handy if it’s not? What are you going to wear?! It gets stupid cold at night and stupid hot during the day. How are you going to transport all of this stuff, plus all of the water you will need to bring… should you just rent an RV? Or can your car pull a trailer? How are you going to be seen at night… do you have lights? The ticket itself costs $300+ and sells out nearly instantly, are you ready? Did you consult your list of things you wish you brought last year but didn’t and plan to bring this year? etc…

    It’s usually so much of an event for all those involved that they would go anyway even if the event were cancelled.

    So if you’re a participant you can acknowledge that this year’s event kind of sucked, but that it was still worth it on the whole. Do I have that right?

    If the weather was “perfect” the burn could still suck because of any one or more of the following:

    • you forgot stuff
    • you got hangry and blew up at law enforcement
    • you didn’t take the 5mph speed limit seriously and now law enforcement has dumped all of your stuff on the ground, searching for the drugs you do not have. Or that you did have and now you’ve got a new set of problems.
    • you lost your favorite _____
    • daft punk was not actually playing at the trash fence :(
    • you and your partner had a falling out. this happens a lot. burning man is a test of couples, among other things.
    • that hot girl you had sex with is an undercover cop.
    • you decided smoked weed on the playa at night and a cop with night vision goggles drives out to you on his atv and arrests you.
    • the guy who offered to sell you drugs on the art car was a cop, and the art car is owned by law enforcement.
    • you drank too much free booze and didn’t drink enough water, someone dropped you off to the medical tent in the morning and they started fluid injections to rehydrate you. They put 4 bags in you and that’s the limit, you’re going to reno now… you are airlifted to Reno, which is about an hour’s drive away. You recover in the hospital for the rest of the event.
    • You fell off an artcar and broke your arm.
    • A stage structure failed and there 10 people needed medical attention. You witnessed it and now you need to talk to someone about it.
    • You tried to find a date at the orgy dome but no one was interested.

    But then there’s the magical parts of burning man, which by and large are the people and humanity and all of the wonderful creations of humanity, on display. It’s something everyone should consider trying once, but you could also seek out smaller “regional” burning man events, which have a very similar vibe as the big burn but are more local and are still a lot of fun.

    One other thing-- I notice some people calling the event a ‘rich person’s event,’ as if to imply the whole thing is frivolous, and that it’s of no consequence that this one was ‘rained out.’ Thoughts?

    They’re right, and they’re wrong to an extent. Consider what I’ve posted so far in terms of the things a participant needs to deal with just to survive and enjoy themselves. Now imagine how much easier that would be if you could just show up with a plane ticket and already have a camp with a room waiting for you? This is called “plug and play” camping and it’s something that arguably ruins burning man for a lot of folks. As a participant, you’re just walking by these large blocks of land with gates and lots of RVs inside, sometimes with security. Travel agencies have been caught selling packages like this, and it’s not something that’s sanctioned by the event, but it’s also not something that fits outside of their terms and conditions.

    Artists can apply for grants for art for the event through the organization, but aside from what’s given for art, a lot of the event comes from individual camps. Individual camps that bring large sound systems and large stages, build huge art cars with large sound systems, lasers, led and EL wire lighting, fire, etc… All of that costs money.

    The ticket itself costs $300 but considering gas and everything else you would need, you should budget at least $1000. You’ll also need to be somewhere in life that you can take that much time off work, and your job may not allow for that.

    The last year I went, someone tested the idea of “the playa provides” and arrived at the event naked, without a ticket. He somehow got a ticket, and I imagine he was probably fine for the rest of the event but didn’t hear more about that. So, cost of burning man for the bold and stupid: $0?

    So yes, having money helps, as does with any kind of travel. Having toys at burning man really requires money. Some rich folks make burning man what it is because of the gifts they give in the way of large sound camps, art installations or fun things to do. Some rich folks fly in to reno, take a bus to BRC and stay in basically a hotel for the week on playa. But to say everyone is rich is just wrong.

    JohnnyEnzyme,

    Thanks again for answering so extensively. Maybe one day I’ll be able to go (got some health stuff going on).

    Btw, I think it might be useful if you were to collect these comments at some point and edit them in to some sort of… guide, or collection of perspectives. Unfortunately, I’m not sure how many people will be able to drill down this deep in to the comments, but hopefully I’m wrong.

    dipshit,

    Oh, no worries! Lots of guides have been written on the topic already, I don’t think I’d have much else to say. But thanks!

    Corkyskog,

    I know old burners, none of them went this year, nor the last few years. They have other smaller events they go to now that retains the old feel of Burning Man. It is very much frivolous now.

    JohnnyEnzyme,

    Okay, what makes it frivolous now?

    Corkyskog,

    Alcohol is common now, the art is ignored by a lot of people, people just aren’t as generally sociable. From what I can see, it’s morphed into something that’s less about sharing and showing art, into showing off and partying. I am not a habitual burner, so leaning on stories and photos from friends, and maybe the prior years were just off years, and I missed the year that brought it back to its roots… but somehow I doubt it.

    JohnnyEnzyme,

    the art is ignored by a lot of people, people just aren’t as generally sociable. From what I can see, it’s morphed into something that’s less about sharing and showing art, into showing off and partying.

    Ugh, yeah, that sounds plenty disappointing. :S

    spongebue,

    Fine, but calling it a tragedy takes away from actual tragedies.

    JohnnyEnzyme,

    For who? I understood that when he called it a “tragedy,” it was heavily based on his POV and emotions at the time. That’s about as innocuous as it gets, and isn’t going to change anything across the world IMO.

    spongebue,

    The word “literally” used to have a specific meaning, but now it annoyingly has the exact opposite meaning of its original. The word “pentultimate” was supposed to mean “second to last” but then it turned into “super-ultimate”

    No one anything changes the word… Until it does. It would be nice if words can keep their meaning without getting diluted so when you really need it, you have it.

    JohnnyEnzyme,

    Yeap, I understand those sentiments, and am fairly picky about language myself.

    Still, in cases like these, I have to bow to the fact that language is and always was fluid & ever-changing. That, and the fact that we must pick our battles in life. shrug

    Jax,

    Brother, Burning Man is an excuse for a bunch of people to do a fuckton of drugs out in the middle of the desert.

    Burning Man has never been anything other than a monument to excess. It is, if anything, a poignant statement regarding humanity.

    Am I happy people are struggling? No. But I’d be lying if I didn’t think they deserve it. Maybe the survivors will spend their free time better. Probably not, it’ll just end up meaning poor people are allowed less and less in coming years.

    JohnnyEnzyme,

    I’m not debating that drug use, alcohol and sex don’t go on there, but what consenting adults do is their business IMO. For that matter, huge swaths of the rural and semi-rural States seem to be given over to that sort of thing, too, and I think that’s of far more concern than a one week festival, brother.

    Regardless, I’ve seen plenty of footage and pics, and there’s undeniably loads of creativity, art projects, chance meetings between interesting people, and the tribal-experiential aspect going on at BM. I happen to think all that stuff’s pretty damn cool, and I feel no need to dismiss the whole thing just because I’m on some moral high ground from afar.

    Jax,

    “Art” flocks to places like that because of rich people with too much money doing dumb shit… like partying in the middle of the desert.

    Furthermore what makes you think what I’ve said would result in me not condemning those in the south as well? What is this whataboutist bullshit?

    I’m not even going to touch the “tribal experiential” bit.

    JohnnyEnzyme,

    “Art” flocks to places like that because of rich people with too much money doing dumb shit… like partying in the middle of the desert.

    Sounds like a pretty facile, cynical, and plain inaccurate way of looking at the tradition:

    lemm.ee/comment/3200143

    bennieandthez,
    @bennieandthez@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    These solid human beings with strong morals, financially responsible with a career, upstanding members of society having their day ruined is not a tragedy? 😫

    powerful_peanut,

    Theres a book/movie that explains this pretty well…It’s called “How the Grinch Stole Christmas”. Online most people are like the Grinch and they believe others are silly/stupid/wrong or immoral for doing fun things. Seeing them suffer instinctively sounds good.

    They are likely to be super surprised when the burners return and talk about how it changed their life…After all the best burns are when shit goes sideways.

    NathanielThomas,

    The only Freude left In life is Schadenfreude

    obinice,
    @obinice@lemmy.world avatar

    Boomers and authoritarian fascists don’t like to see people enjoying themselves, so watching people at a festival of joy, equality and happiness suffer is basically their favourite thing to do.

    bennieandthez,
    @bennieandthez@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    it’s just an us based festival, why do you make it sound as if its a larger than life event.

    Coreidan,

    Because we live in a society devoid of empathy.

    SnowdenHeroOfOurTime,

    This thread is wild. I suspect most of you who seem completely positive you’re right to judge thousands of people and what they deserve would be very indignant and angry if someone lumped you in with a category of people you somehow are tangentially related to.

    It’s kind of depressing. I thought Lemmy wasn’t a wasteland of humanity like reddit was, but if I was only going by this thread I’d have to conclude it definitely is not a damned bit better than reddit.

    happyhippo,

    I completely agree with you, although:

    I thought Lemmy wasn’t a wasteland of humanity like reddit was

    Never had any hope for that. Humanity is what it is, shitty folks are everywhere, it’s statistics.

    SnowdenHeroOfOurTime,

    Yeah shitty people are definitely everywhere, but I’ve had a lot of interactions that indicate the ratio is much better here than other online communities.

    This thread kinda shattered that feeling. I don’t think most people being huge assholes about this know anything except that they hate rich people. Rich people? Anyone with more money than them. They don’t care if you have $1000 more in your bank account or $1000000000 more than they have. Apparently anyone “rich”-er is all the same person

    neatchee,

    ngl you sound just like the redditors did after Digg went to shit. Not saying that in a judgemental way. Just noting the similar response to similar situations

    dipshit,

    I’m doing my part!

    cubedsteaks,

    I had a nice couple of weeks here before the reddit really started to seep in.

    kaffiene,

    Hmm… White people privilege is funny. If you don’t see that… Well that just illustrates the joke

    cubedsteaks,

    I mean, reddit came on over here, didn’t it.

    SnowdenHeroOfOurTime,

    Yeah. I was just hoping some of the assholes didn’t come as well.

    cubedsteaks,

    me too but here we are.

    Malfeasant,

    It’s difficult to monetize assholery, that’s exactly who reddit is chasing away…

    Kecessa,

    Holy crap, I just checked the actual numbers and their mortality rate is lower than the average in the population, they’re doing fine

    www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db456.htm#:~….

    Couldbealeotard,
    @Couldbealeotard@lemmy.world avatar

    So as long as Event Organisers stay below the average mortality rate, they hold no liability? They are doing fine?

    Kecessa,

    OP: One person died! It’s a tragedy!

    Turns out that’s a better mortality rate than outside the event, not much of a tragedy, more of them would have died if they hadn’t went to the event!

    Couldbealeotard,
    @Couldbealeotard@lemmy.world avatar

    It’s a much higher mortality rate than the average event. More people died at this event then most events.

    Kecessa,

    One event with 70k in attendance lasting a whole week with the same people in attendance all week and they can’t leave. There aren’t many events that can be compared to it and the fact that it takes place during an event doesn’t matter for this comparison as we’re trying to see how many of these people would have died if the event hadn’t taken place at all.

    Heck it could be considered good for the organizers, they should have had many deaths by that point considering the average mortality rate of the people present, they only had one!

    Couldbealeotard,
    @Couldbealeotard@lemmy.world avatar

    the fact that it takes place during an event doesn’t matter for this comparison as we’re trying to see how many of these people would have died if the event hadn’t taken place at all.

    Then you must be ignoring information to show the truth that you want the data to show. Events need to abide by strict OH&S guidelines. If an injury or death occurs due to the negligence of the event planners, they need to be held accountable. This means that a death at an event should be compared to other events because day-to-day life isn’t governed by OH&S.

    Kecessa,

    sh.itjust.works/comment/2962187

    The truth that I want? It’s the simple statistical truth, I’m not doing any interpretation! The fact that it takes place during an event doesn’t change the fact that the death rate of the population there is lower than it is in the general population so statistically speaking if these people didn’t go more than one would have died just living there everyday lives instead of partying in the desert.

    Want me to do interpretation? You’re putting 70k persons in the middle of the desert in the US with tons of drugs, OSHA or not, death at burning man happens and it’s too be expected and considering the number of people in the place, the length of the event, what people do there and the country it’s taking place in, it’s surprising there isn’t more every year.

    This year’s is not the first and unless the event stops, it’s not the last

    salon.com/…/deaths-sexual-assault-and-art-controv…

    edm.com/news/burning-man-2022-arrests-death

    journal.burningman.org/…/we-lost-spoono-today/

    No cause of death has been released for this year’s deceased, it might as well be a suicide, what could OSHA do about that exactly?

    Heck, it’s written on the fucking tickets that death rarely happen (implying they do) but injuries often do!

    WheeGeetheCat,
    @WheeGeetheCat@sh.itjust.works avatar

    LOL you’re really running with this line of thinking. Might people who plan to go to a week-long strenuous event in the desert lead to a sample that has some selection bias? For instance, selecting out the entirety of the demographic that is currently hospitalized, currently debilitatingly ill?

    In which cause you should compare mortality rates with another group like that. Not the entire rest of the age demographic (which has all those sick people you selected out).

    I don’t really care either way, just found this argument kind of hilarious.

    Kecessa,

    You’ve got people of all ages there and the average death per year at burning man seems to be pretty close to one, some years even had three, some years had multiple suicides, some years had people die outside the premise from things that happened at the event…

    Again, nothing unusual about one person dying out of a crowd 70k during a week. You can be in the best shape of your life and die of aneurysm!

    WheeGeetheCat,
    @WheeGeetheCat@sh.itjust.works avatar

    Do you have any hospitalized people there? Because the USA has 919,649 hospital beds. Anyone needing assisted living? Because the US has 810,000 people in assisted living. Now the 70,000 number doesn’t seem so big eh?

    My point is that ‘people capable of going to an event’ is already a helluva selection, especially when you compare it to the population that includes all those sick people.

    Kecessa,

    Just suicides and unintentional injuries are enough to make it pretty close to 1/week/70k.

    Again, I provided sources in another comment, you’re just ignoring the stats and the history of the event because it doesn’t fit with what you want the event to be 🤷

    Heck, we don’t even know this year’s cause of death, might as well be a suicide or an overdose and have nothing to do with the weather!

    WheeGeetheCat,
    @WheeGeetheCat@sh.itjust.works avatar

    Haha I don’t care so much about burning man as much as this method you have.

    So by your math, Somewhere like disney with 50k visitors a day is still remarkably safe as long as less than 10 people a day die there?

    Kecessa,

    I used to work in a casino where we would get 6k visitors a day on average and we had two to three deaths a year. Just because most clients don’t realize it happens doesn’t mean it doesn’t. Same for Disney, some people die on the premise, some people die when they’ve reached the hospital, but yes, when you have that many people coming every day that shit does happen. Considering its size, Disney has medical staff on the premise (heck, we had medical staff for the 1500 employees and our clients) and they might even have their own ambulance service so as to not have to wait to ship people to the hospital.

    WheeGeetheCat,
    @WheeGeetheCat@sh.itjust.works avatar

    I like how you chose casino, establishments known to especially attract the 85+ cohort, which I didn’t even include in my 10 a day disney # to be nice. How many 85+ you think they got at burning man?

    Do you think 10 people a day die at a single disney park behind the scenes? You’re dying on this hill?

    Kecessa, (edited )

    Fucking hell mate, I posted the stats for 2019 and 2021, go check them, even people 35-44 are at 200 death/100k/year, 130 deaths for those 25-34, 70 deaths for those 15-24, do you think they’re all bedridden or something?

    Are your feelings the hill you are willing to die on or you’re able to accept that CDC’s stats might be closer to the truth than what you feel is right?

    WheeGeetheCat,
    @WheeGeetheCat@sh.itjust.works avatar

    fucking hell mate, do you think selection bias is a fictional concept inapplicable to your calculations or are you going to continue to pretend that taking an entire countries population and comparing it to any sliver of the country 1:1 doesn’t fail basic representativeness analysis?

    Kecessa,

    Do you think not all kinds of people go to Disney? Why do you think I gave the numbers for people under 44 except to eliminate most people who die from diseases?

    WheeGeetheCat, (edited )
    @WheeGeetheCat@sh.itjust.works avatar

    If I add in the 85+ to the disney calculations it only makes your case worse (drives the # higher). I left it out to be nice.

    Would you seriously take your family to disney as long as less than 10 people a day died there? Like get your head out of the #s for a second think with your common sense.

    Lets do another really simple one. Imagine a playground near you serving kids 5-14. Are you taking your kids as long as less than 13 kids died there last year? Or are you maybe thinking its unsafe after 1 death? WHY?

    You seriously are not understanding the importance of comparing representative groups and this ‘compare any slice of the country to the entire country 1:1’ method is ludicrous, nothing to do with burning man

    edit: hmm the park example is complicated by the fact we don’t know how many citizens the park servers. Im finding numbers ranging all over, from 2k to 10k to much higher in cities. For this example we can use a city park with 10k annual visitors, so we would expect 1-2 deaths a year at this park and not bat an eye yes? Either way I think you get my point. Good luck

    Kecessa,

    You’re the only one talking about if I would go or not, what I’m talking about since the beginning is that considering the number of people present and publically available stats, it’s clear that there’s nothing unusual about deaths happening during these events and OP calling it a tragedy is exaggerated. I’m sure they didn’t even know that deaths happen most years at Burning Man and they only realised it happened this year because attention was brought to the event because of the weather. Same for Disney, same for any place where there’s thousands of people coming and going every day.

    Shit happens, there’s statistically less shit happening there than elsewhere, get over it.

    cubedsteaks,

    so you don’t think its a tragedy when someone dies?

    Kecessa,

    Tens of thousands dying of starvation? That’s a tragedy.

    Kids being shot in school? That’s a tragedy.

    A dude that went to an event in the middle of the desert where people die pretty much every year? Unless they got killed by someone else then fuck no that’s not a tragedy.

    I’ve got bad news about global mortality and human’s inability to live forever if you think every death is a tragedy.

    cubedsteaks,

    Are you just using the definition of tragedy here? We can’t have any nuance about this?

    Kecessa,

    I can call out someone for acting like the death of one guy who decided to go party in the desert is anything but a sob story to generate clicks.

    There:

    worldpopulationreview.com/…/deaths-per-day

    This year they only had one death at Burning Man? Well there’s close to 2 death a second on a global scale. Tell me again how tragic that death was and how tragic them being stuck in mud was. Heck, I’ve seen reports of up to five deaths in a single year at BM, did you care about it? Nah you didn’t.

    cubedsteaks,

    look, I saw a post on another site where someone was making fun of these people and making fun of the person who died. That’s just edgelord shit in my book.

    If you want to get all technical about a word, whatever, I’m not here for that kind argument. What is tragic to some isn’t to others obviously. Empathy sure is going out the window and people will do anything to justify being a piece of shit apparently.

    And don’t sit here and tell me what I don’t care about. You don’t fucking know.

    cubedsteaks,

    en.wikipedia.org/…/List_of_incidents_at_Walt_Disn…en.wikipedia.org/…/List_of_incidents_at_Disneylan…

    sorry but theme park accidents are fascinating to me.

    You should really see the death numbers at the Six Flags parks though. Those places are like a god damn death trap for humans. It’s insane how many people get injured or just die on rides.

    en.wikipedia.org/…/Incidents_at_Six_Flags_parks

    edit cause I hit enter too soon

    WheeGeetheCat,
    @WheeGeetheCat@sh.itjust.works avatar

    same, I assume you have heard of / watched the train wreck that was Action Park?

    cubedsteaks,

    Yes and I believe I once saw an old recording of the guys from Alice In Chains doing like a live broadcast there for MTV. Pretty sure it was an episode of Headbangers Ball.

    cubedsteaks,

    I saw a long post about this on tumblr and they were saying something like, one person dies a year on the playa at burning man so we shouldn’t feel sorry for the one person who died this year.

    So dehumanizing. I was reading that whole post in awe of how fucking empty some people are inside. Like holy shit that’s cruel.

    Kecessa,

    It sucks for them but if you’re not losing sleep for the tens of thousands that die of starvation each year then I don’t know why you should feel bad for someone who intentionally went to a festival in the middle of the desert and died of something (we don’t know what) during their trip.

    cubedsteaks,

    but if you’re not losing sleep for the tens of thousands that die of starvation each year

    I guess I’m just one of those people then. the worlds problems do tend to keep me up at night.

    I legit have a hard time sleeping. Because all I can think is, everything sure does suck and people die for the wrong reasons.

    Kecessa,

    Get over it

    worldpopulationreview.com/…/deaths-per-day

    cubedsteaks,

    Death is a part of life, I get it but I’m not going to be unempathetic piece of jaded trash over it.

    Niggling__Niggard,

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    Couldbealeotard,
    @Couldbealeotard@lemmy.world avatar

    You could just pledge to save lives instead…

    syllabic,

    Outside the event includes people in their 90s dying of old age in hospitals

    Generally the demographic that attends burning man skews younger which is inherently less likely to die

    Kecessa, (edited )

    I included a link to the real stats which you didn’t check and just with people up to their 40s the mortality rate is high enough that you would expect more people to die during that week…

    Heck, let’s look at the stats for 2019 so COVID isn’t taken in consideration (pdf warning):

    www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db395-H.pdf

    The important table:

    https://sh.itjust.works/pictrs/image/b7b7564c-3c36-4955-a55b-f265f80bfe6c.webp

    Every group starting with the 25-34 y.o. has a mortality rate higher than what has been seen at Burning Man this year, 15-24 is at 49/70k/year so it’s pretty much par with the current death rate at the festival, so unless all attendees are 24 or less then they’re better off than the general population that didn’t attend.

    set_secret,

    Burning Man ‘promotes’ anti-consumerism and communal effort, however attending requires significant financial resources and costs that can and do exclude (most) people, it’s living hyprocracy, and an excellent example of capitalism corrupting grass roots ideals. honestly is an absolute joke of a festival.

    jimbo,

    It’s like $400 for a ticket, and then the rest of the cost is getting there, food, water, shelter, etc. You can pay as little or as much as you want to accomplish those things. Plenty of people drive there and stayed in tents. I don’t see how it’s any different than camping for a few days.

    KyuubiNoKitsune,

    Because I can go camp somewhere for less than $100?

    moonsnotreal,
    @moonsnotreal@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    Lmao I’ve camped for free just by pitching a tent off the side of a secluded road.

    KyuubiNoKitsune,

    I was calculating in gear costs too tbh.

    barfplanet,

    You wouldn’t be at burning man then. It’s obviously a very different experience.

    WheeGeetheCat,
    @WheeGeetheCat@sh.itjust.works avatar

    check again it was up to $575 this year

    Ive never been to burning man. I went to Coachella a LLOOONNGG time ago when it was hippies rolling around in the dust. Coachella ain’t that anymore, it’s instagram rich kids and tech bros. I assume the same thing has happened to burning man.

    wokehobbit,

    No it doesn’t. Poor as dirt and go almost every year. So many idiots in this thread have no idea what they’re talking about. Just parroting the media.

    YeetPics,
    @YeetPics@mander.xyz avatar

    What if I told you you could be less poor than dirt if you didn’t buy overpriced festival tickets?

    boatswain,

    Clearly, people who classify themselves as “poor as dirt” should not be allowed to spend money on anything they consider fun.

    YeetPics,
    @YeetPics@mander.xyz avatar

    Clearly, if you can afford $400 for a ticket you aren’t “poor as dirt”. But you go on ahead and decide what my message was :]

    cubedsteaks,

    the people I knew who went in the past would usually pool money together in order to get all the camping supplies and gas money.

    Historical_General,

    And yet you spend like Bilbo Baggins?

    schmorpel,

    There is a similar thing not far from where I live. Through an unlucky friend, then the neighbour of their festival grounds, I got to discover the organizers’ ‘ideals’ and ‘ethical and ecological approach’ first hand. In short: it was about money. And more money. And they managed to turn a large reservoir into a dying punch bowl of acid, piss and shit within only a decade. I suspect Burning Man to be the same, considering the ticket prices. The fact that some poor fools with their heart and soul intact save their little money to visit this monstrosity just makes it more sad.

    I don’t actively engage in Schadenfreude much, but I do carry a little of it in my heart. If people think flying or driving very far away for Entertainment, and bringing thousands of people into an otherwise quiet place is okay for the wildlife there, and can be in any way an ecological thing, they have understood very little about ecology. And now also ignored by most: the destruction that happens by the thousands of ‘poor humans who just wanted to have fun’ trampling through the last remnants of life in a drought stricken place.

    We are not alone on this planet. Invading a place with our idea of fun is very damaging. We can party perfectly well at home. If home happens to be bleak and sad maybe we should work on that first before invading quiet places.

    I_Has_A_Hat,

    Just as a counterpoint, the area burning man is held in is one of the most ecologically inert places you could go. There’s no vegetation and the only life to speak of is brine shrimp eggs, which are about as threatened as mosquito larvae.

    There’s still a lot of trash that gets left behind which can travel with wind, but as far as impact on the land goes, it’s likely significantly less invasive than your local county fair. There’s just nothing out there for them to damage.

    MonkderZweite,

    deleted_by_author

    •
    TheDoctorDonna,

    I don’t think that’s the flex you think it is.

    Battle_Masker,
    @Battle_Masker@lemmy.world avatar

    aside from the obvious “rich people exploiting the environment with their hippy party that costs $200 for their cheapest tickets,” I saw a video online that brought up a good point that I never considered. The cost of lumber has increased exponentially in the past 3 years alone, jumping to nearly $1700 per 1000 feet at its peak in 2021, but staying between $400 and $600 per 1000 feet in recent months (still high compared to say 10 years ago.) And these people are buying tens of thousands of feet of lumber solely to burn it away in the middle of nowhere where there’s little vegetation to absorb the excess CO2 waste. That, along with the climate change protesters being police brutalized just before the event, really puts a sour taste in people’s mouths. Especially in a time where “once in a lifetime” weather events seem to be back-to-back.

    economic data from: tradingeconomics.com/commodity/lumber

    kitos,

    Sincerely with rocket launches now being a daily thing i’m not very worried by that burning lumber.

    Apollo,

    Rockets mostly use hydrogen as fuel, burning wood is way more polluting than burning hydrogren.

    xatlw,

    Tickets cost about 10x that. I was interested back when it was a cool art exchange, freedom event. But SO many people flock to it as a giant party that it’s become restrictive unless your volunteering or bringing an exhibit.

    Corkyskog,

    From old burners I have talked to, the entire experience has completely changed. Alcohol used to be frowned upon, now it’s common place.

    zouden,

    Burning wood just releases the co2 absorbed when growing it.

    Scribbd,

    What are fossil fuels other than captured carbon from plants and animals from long ago?

    Rereleasing carbon is the problem now. Wood being sustainable needs a non-surplus in carbon emissions to begin with.

    Blackmist,

    Everything is “carbon neutral” on a long enough timescale. One of many reasons why that expression is 100% unadulterated bollocks. If you’re an airline, you can’t just offset the damage you do by paying a Bangladeshi farmer two dollars to throw some tree seeds on the ground.

    Scribbd,

    Burning man should become Burried man. Everybody should dig a hole and burry the wood. That is carbon capture.

    I am not an expert. So this could just be a naive take. I wouldn’t be surprised burying wood actually amplifies the carbon emissions due to some reactions with soil, or something.

    DarthBueller,

    I mean, decomposition releases methane over time, slower than burning does, but buried wood in the desert is more likely to petrify than rot. There’s a lot to be said for burying wood in certain situations. Hugelkultur (making agricultural/garden mounds out of wood and soil) if done right can do amazing things (everything from creating microclimates that increase biodiversity to supercharging the soil with beneficial fungi/bacteria, to increasing water retention).

    Blackmist,

    I would think the biggest pollutant there would be all the fuel.

    Getting there and back (and the location could be charitably described as the arse end of nowhere), all the rented RVs with the air con running… Burning a wooden effigy wouldn’t even come close.

    aesthelete,

    Also John Wilson tried to go shoot at the event and after compiling hours of footage was told that he couldn’t use any of it because there was some exclusive licensed coverage provider for the event.

    heird,

    Yesterday in the US it was labour day, 100 of millions of Americans has a BBQ many using coal and wood the impact of burning man is insignificant in comparison

    Pipoca,

    And these people are buying tens of thousands of feet of lumber solely to burn it away in the middle of nowhere where there’s little vegetation to absorb the excess CO2 waste.

    That’s not really how plants work.

    Photosynthesis turns co2 + water into sugar + oxygen. Cellular respiration turns sugar + oxygen into co2 + water.

    The total co2 absorbed by a plant is exactly equal to the amount of co2 used to make all the sugar, cellulose, etc. the plant currently has. Digestion, decomposition, fires etc. undo that.

    A mature forest or lawn is carbon neutral: new growth is balanced out by decomposition of old growth.

    Distance to plants doesn’t matter. What matters is if and how the trees they’re burning are being replanted or replaced. .

    Battle_Masker,
    @Battle_Masker@lemmy.world avatar

    Thanks for the correction. That helps me better understand how counteracting pollution works

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