The whole shitshow is driving anti-Semitism and anti-Muslim hatred through the roof and I genuinely think people’s irrationally singular focus on the issue is just a release valve for their anger, fear and anxieties about all of the other issues plaguing modern life right now.
Offtopic: Before the war started, I used to think that western media^1^ (read AFP, AP, Reuters, and BBC) were least biased sources, unlike the corrupt media of my country.
But now I’ve become suspicious whenever a news regarding world affairs is published by them.
1: I don’t consider other sources like the sun, CNBC, etc. since they don’t enjoy as much positive reviews, and aren’t as big outlets as the once mentioned above.
not this article(hence the “offtopic” disclaimer), but an amalgamation of news reports published by these outlets since the beginning of this month. I’ve come to the conclusion that they have certain bias towards Israel.
The first 3 are wire services. They do have staff reporters, but most of their content is generated by other news organizations that are subscribers to them. I wish more people understood how wire services work. It’s part of being media literate.
Basically if I’m a subscriber to AP (true of Reuters and AFP as well) I can publish their content and edit it however I want, and I can contribute my own content (put it on the wire) as long as I use their in-house style-guides which for AP is the industry standard in the US anyway.
All of which is just to say that a wire service story may or may not have been reported by someone who actually works for that wire service. Usually, at least with AP and Reuters, it will say in the biline.
I understood that they give access to their articles to other news services, but didn’t know that they themselves source it from other news servicesk if this is what you mean?). I used to think they were the primary producers.
most of the stories I read say AFP or AP either in the beginning or the end, so does that mean they published them? or just that they got it from them?
but didn’t know that they themselves source it from other news servicesk if this is what you mean?
My understanding is that they are the source, and that other news organizations, like CNN, etc., uses them for what they put on air.
They do have staff reporters, but most of their content is generated by other news organizations that are subscribers to them.
The poster you replied to did say that the newswire services also use other organizations as their news source, but they don’t.
Generally speaking, as there are one-offs, the newswire services employees are the ‘boots on the ground’ gathering the news to put into their feed.
Now, a subscriber to the newswire service can add their own opinion and content if they wish, that could skew the original newswire news content.
But newswires don’t get news from other newswire or other companies that subscribe to newswires, they generate the news from their own employees and contractors.
If you want as close to the truth news get it from a newswire.
yeah, that’s what I used to think about those three.
I thought maybe I was wrong lol. now I gotta read about it before anyone says another thing now lol.
thanks for the explanation mate, much appreciated!
I don’t think that’s off topic. This is a News community. I struggle to get people to understand that all news is biased. And it’s incumbent upon the reader to discover those biases.
It’s factual as in “this person said this, someone said that”, but there’s no mention very much of what Gaza’s political leadership (yes, Hamas) has to say. By contrast, in the Ukraine conflict it was all about what Ukraine had to say but there were at least interjections of Russia’s public statements.
That said, they’re not really pulling their punches, comparing death tolls et cetera.
“stop the bombs”… But only incoming ones, not outgoing ones from Gaza because they’re friendly rockets which are a symbol for peace! Look, we’re such peaceful people who want peace!
Obviously Israel should just stop its efforts of freeing over 200 kidnapped citizens. Oh they also should pack up their bags, leave their home, kiss Hamas’s feet, thank them for massacring civilians and pillageing homes, and let them take the entirety of Israeli land and start a new state called Iran.2.0.
Maybe then jews in Berlin won’t have stars of david sprayed on their homes.
Strong, brutal retaliation is what will keep Israel safe from future kidnappings long term. Significant disincentive. If they negotiate and confer a tactical advantage for kidnapping, expect more of it.
No. They care about minimizing hostage taking overall more than these specific hostages. They still care but are utilizing game theory effectively to keep the most people safe.
There's no reason to invade in the first place. Hamas has already asked for negotiations to free the hostages. "Saving a few or saving none" is a false dichotomy.
No reason to invade? And they’re supposed to do what, say “ok don’t do it again thx bye” to Hamas???
Hamas proved their lack of willingness to do anything but kill (Israelis and their own citizens). If Israel just backs down in a few years they’ll have another attack, much bigger this time. There’s no other way but to destroy Hamas, who no matter what are set only on death.
Any state in this world, after events like oct.7 would destroy the ones responsible. And saying they should just work towards peace, at this point, is gullible and delusional.
Reddit is scary after this whole thing started. You have people calling for outright genocide being upvoted to the sky. People saying the old disproven zionist claims (Palestinians are not native to Palestine, etc) are getting extreme support too.
I surely hope this is bot propaganda because, if not, we’re about to witness one of the biggest crimes against humanity.
This just contributed for me to steer ever more towards Lemmy where the opinions are more…human.
Opinions are more human because they’re mostly posted by actual humans. Reddit and that clowfiesta previously known as twitter are clogged by astroturf.
If lemmy ever gets really big, no doubt we’ll see the same here unfortunately.
So I would assume some of the people saying Palestinians aren’t native are in the americas. So does that mean all black peoples have to go to Africa and all white people Europe? Or do you go way back and all humans have to go to Africa cause that is where we originated as a species from?
I suspect that's brought up as a counter to someone portraying Jews as foreign invaders not native to the region. (At least not in recent history.) Making a similar claim about Palestinians muddies the water regarding whose ancient homeland it is.
I’ll be honest I haven’t been on reddit much aside from a couple communities since the whole shutdown, but it’s not that surprising tbh. Reddit is a huge target for astroturfing, they don’t have good protections against it, and Israel invests A LOT into stuff like that.
I also feel like anecdotally I’ve always felt like reddit was very pro-israel. I’ve been educated about many things because of reddit, but Palestine wasn’t one of them. (when I say educated about I don’t just mean reading comments, I actually do go to effort to read books etc., but often Reddit was a source of prompting for me to realize I needed to educate myself on something)
But yeah, it’s so refreshing using Lemmy. Really reminds me of when I started using Reddit, but more mature.
Hamas hides in civilian places. In return, Israel bombs said civilian places, killing everyone but mostly uninvolved innocent folks, most of those are children. And yet when they try to leave, Hamas won’t let them, and Israel bombs the exit anyway.
I feel like these two guys are secretly allied to commit genocide or something.
And yes, I’m waiting for the downvotes to come in. I don’t even care anymore. Just press the button.
It reminds me when my mother threw a set of iron keys at my face and I quickly shut the door between us so they hit and ruined the door (instead of my face) and I was scolded for ruining the door.
Normal people just say “why the hell did she toss the keys at you??”
They're still effective enough to kill, should we give them a pass because their weapons are inferior?
Just because Hamas is punching up rather than punching down like Israel is with asymmetrical warfare, it doesn't make them the good guys. In this case, the underdog is a terrorist organization who commits crimes against humanity and intentionally targets civilians.
Yeah that was during a war, though. That’s completely allowed in the playbook or are you going to say that literally anything Israel did in retaliation is a “civilian target”. Because if that’s the case, your definitions and understanding of this subject matter is biased and objectively wrong.
Also, by the same virtue, Palestine has attacked civilian targets as well. You either say both sides are causing this conflict or neither are. You can’t always blame Israel when Palestine is doing the exact same thing.
You asked a question. I gave you the answer. You don’t like the answer and for some reason believe you have to defend your presumptions. You don’t. It’s okay to be wrong. That’s how we learn. Also, I like your name.
Israel isnt retaliating to shit, they created this mess. the Palestinian militia groups locked in the open air prison of Gaza are the ones “retaliating”.
You do know that 44% of the Gazan population is 14 or younger, right? Every shelling is killing kids, shutting off the electricity is killing kids. How many children do you have to shell in “self-defense”? Fuck off with that, Palestine is not doing “The exact same thing”.
I recall a small little, tincy wincy attack from this terrorist group called “Hamas” that started this. Israel is no saint but Hamas, and Palestine supporting it, is 100% to blame for this. Sorry to remind you about that massacre.
This is a take that ignores a full 100 years of history - including the displacement of the entire Palestinian arab population. “Israel is no saint” - they are literally colonists engaging in a genocide of the Palestinians.
By that logic, do all countries have a century long statute of limitations to engage in vengeful warfare because of “past conflicts”. Would you justify the massacre of white people because of slavery? Or would you allow native Americans to kill thousands because their ancestors were pushed away from their “land”? You do realize that every single country has fought for its territory - no flag is without sin.
I’m sorry your side isn’t willing to budge on this issue but you can’t engage in this discourse without a nuanced understanding of real history and honest critical thinking. You’re letting others tell you what to feel and look stupid for it.
By that logic, do all countries have a century long statute of limitations to engage in vengeful warfare because of “past conflicts”. Would you justify the massacre of white people because of slavery
This is a false equivalency, Israel is actively engaging in settler-colonialism and genocide. These people who have been expelled from their home 76 years ago are actively suffering for it, it’s a living memory. Are you comfortable letting “your side” use Hamas’s attack on Israel as a justification to engage in ethnic cleansing ?
Or would you allow native Americans to kill thousands because their ancestors were pushed away from their “land”?
I would actually support giving land back to native Americans in the US/canada. If they started attacking white people to take land back, i wouldn’t use that as an excuse to decimate their population. It’s possible to have a nuanced understanding of a situation, and still not side with genocide.
You do realize that every single country has fought for its territory - no flag is without sin.
And it’s possible to recognize and be critical of that, while also being critical of an ethnostate that is actively engaging in the decimation of the Palestinians that used to live there.
I’m sorry your side isn’t willing to budge on this issue but you can’t engage in this discourse without a nuanced understanding of real history and honest critical thinking. You’re letting others tell you what to feel and look stupid for it.
Seriously? It sounds like you’re projecting an idea of “my side” onto me. Im sorry you aren’t able to engage in nuanced discourse without projecting and attacking my intelligence.
This is a false equivalency, Israel is actively engaging in settler-colonialism and genocide. These people who have been expelled from their home 76 years ago are actively suffering for it, it’s a living memory. Are you comfortable letting “your side” use Hamas’s attack on Israel as a justification to engage in ethnic cleansing ?
When you say “actively engaging in genocide”, are you referring to the recent attacks this month or in the past? Palestine has not made it secret that they want to wipe Israelis from the face of this earth. I genuinely don’t understand your point here.
I would actually support giving land back to native Americans in the US/canada. If they started attacking white people to take land back, i wouldn’t use that as an excuse to decimate their population. It’s possible to have a nuanced understanding of a situation, and still not side with genocide.
At least you’re consistently dumb. I just wish that blissful dumbness would bleed over into defending Israel from time to time.
And it’s possible to recognize and be critical of that, while also being critical of an ethnostate that is actively engaging in the decimation of the Palestinians that used to live there.
Again, Palestine wants to wipe Israel off the face of this earth. Why is it okay for Palestine to do it and not Israel? I find it fascinating that you give so much leeway to one country, but not another even though you’re using the same parameters to judge one and justify the other.
Seriously? It sounds like you’re projecting an idea of “my side” onto me. Im sorry you aren’t able to engage in nuanced discourse without projecting and attacking my intelligence.
I don’t think you’re just stupid. I think you’re an actual horrible person to dismiss an entire country and its people because somebody told you one side is good and one side is bad.
Geez, can you have a conversation without engaging in ad-hominem attacks? You’ve really thrown civilty out the window here.
Again, Palestine wants to wipe Israel off the face of this earth. Why is it okay for Palestine to do it and not Israel?
Of course Palestine wants to wipe out Israel, they fucked the Palestinians 10 times sideways and displaced the whole population. But does anyone seriously think Palestine is capable of wiping out israel? I dont think either is OK, but how much suffering can you lay on a whole population before retaliation is justified? Why shouldn’t the Palestinians hate Israel when it’s creation led to all of them losing their homes?
At least you’re consistently dumb. I just wish that blissful dumbness would bleed over into defending Israel from time to time.
Damn, fuck off asshole. You have no idea how much leeway I’ve given Israel until now. I’ve defended Israel, and I just can’t anymore. Israel created a mess, and their only solution is to annihilate the people they displaced?
I don’t think you’re just stupid. I think you’re an actual horrible person to dismiss an entire country and its people because somebody told you one side is good and one side is bad.
I started looking into the history of the situation and my opinion changed. I’m not dismissing the Israeli people, but I’m not going to support their retalliation either. I’m a horrible person for that? Wouldn’t that make you a horrible person for supporting Israel’s genocide of Palestinians? Nobody “told me what to think” you smug prick, can you stop projecting for one conversation?
I wonder if Hamas would exist if Israel treated the Palestinians well, giving them aid, food, water and the promise of a brighter future… including sovereignty of their borders.
Ant this is the thing no one is saying. Yes what they did was bad but I can understand why they exist. Freedom fighters or terrorist just depends on your point of view.
Hamas might not exist, but unless you can travel back in time, that doesn’t answer the question what to do about Hamas today.
Hamas is a terror organization, they’ve been in power in the Gaza strip for the last 17 years, they terrorize the Palestinian population in Gaza, and they desperately need the conflict to stay alive so they don’t lose relevance.
As things are today, treating the Palestinians well, giving them aid, food, water and the promise of a brighter future is a direct threat to Hamas. That’s absolutely not to say that those things shouldn’t be done - it’s just to say that these things pose a direct threat to Hamas’s position of power in Gaza. That’s why Hamas reroutes international help and keeps it from reaching the Palestinian population, why they stage terrorist attacks against Israel, why they torture and murder “collaborators,” why they place their infrastructure in schools and mosques and hospitals, why they use Palestinians as human shields.
So lacking the option of traveling back in time and preventing the creation of Hamas, what should be done in a world where Hamas exists, has been in power for many years, and has no intention of ever ceasing its terrorism?
Hamas today could be a thing of the past, or as close to irrelevant as possible, if Israel would put in the effort to help Palestinians. Maybe help Palestinians realize that they could have a better chance with Israel than Hamas and that peace is possible.
This would take Israel being the “bigger man” to use a turn of phrase, but every chance they’re presented with just like right now, they instead choose Zionism and indiscriminately murder civilians.
if Israel would put in the effort to help Palestinians
That’s sounds good.
What would that look like?
As a reference: from 2014 to 2020, the UN spent $4.5 billion in Gaza. NGOs have poured in hundreds of millions, have opened schools, have financed hospitals, have distributed aid. USAID has spent billions of dollars, the European Union spent hundreds of millions of Euros just to put in reliable water infrastructure. Just recently, Israel agreed to open the borders to Gaza so a number of Palestinians could work in Israel and live in Gaza.
But Hamas has been intercepting foreign aid, has seized donated supplies, has interfered with aid workers, has used schools and hospitals financed by the UN and NGOs as terrorist headquarters, as weapons caches, as launching sites for missiles, as prisons and torture sites to hold, torture and murder opponents.
It seems that the only solution to the problem is to kill innocent men, women, and children!
Gotta violently kill a family of twenty so we can take out one or two hidden Hamas fighters!
I want to make this very clear, the hatred that Israel is exhibiting to the Palestinians, is exactly the same as the hatred that Hitler exhibited towards their people during WWII. Difference is, everybody is cheering on the Nazis this time.
So you’re assuming that asking for a qualified answer about what should be done to “help the Palestinians” is the equivalent of “cheering on the Nazis?”
See, that’s the problem, though: you’re already presuming that people who don’t simply go along cheering facile, generic solutions like “why don’t the Israelis just help the Palestinians” - as if things were that easy and as if that thought just had never occurred to a single person in the past 70 years of murderous conflict - must be insincere.
So for the record: no, I’m being sincere. Bombing innocent civilians in Gaza is very obviously objectionable, and indiscriminate bombing is a war crime.
At the same time, I can acknowledge that Hamas is a terrorist organization which just committed the largest terrorist attack in the history of Israel, committing unspeakable atrocities and murdering hundreds and hundreds of civilians in Israel.
So with that premise established: what would be some realistic ways for Israel to help Palestinians in a way that would make Hamas go away and end that particular threat for Israel. Because that’s the proposition: that the terrorist threat from Hamas could be ended if Israel only helped the Palestinians instead of bombing them, correct?
Go on reddit or facebook and you’ll see exactly what I am talking about.
Explain to me exactly how bombing and killing innocent civilians is going to stop a terrorist group? You kill a shit ton of innocent people to take out a few of the bad guys. You’re not understanding that the point isn’t about helping the Palestinians, it’s about not fucking recklessly killing them to stop terrorists.
It honestly sounds to me like IDS are terrorists themselves, is that not what terrorists do? To be a terrorist is to strike terror into a civilian populous, and that is exactly what Israel is doing to the Palestinians. Blowing up fucking schools, hospitals, and homes is not how you stop a terrorist group, it’s how you become one.
I find it absolutely absurd that western countries could do this today and would be heavily criticized, but Israel gets a pass because “it’s god’s land”. Christianity (the religion that many americans falsely claim to follow) does not give two shits about Israel or Jerusalem, that is the JEWS land, not Christian’s land.
This is what happens when you let religion off of a leash, needless bloodshed and suffering. Christians did the same to Jews and Muslims during the crusades, this is a situation that is no different today, that’s exactly what a Jihad is, a " holy war".
You are asking a question that is totally unrelated to the topic. It almost feels like you don’t actually understand how conversations work, I’m being genuine here.
The situation at hand right here, right now, is not about helping the Palestinians, it is about not killing them. Once that hurdle is crossed, then we can figure out how to help them. I wrote it in the second paragraph, basic English comprehension here.
I fail to see the point in trying to help them if you are actively blowing them up to stop a terrorist organization, you should do that before you do anything else, it’s literally a prerequisite.
You are asking a question that is totally unrelated to the topic.
Because you wrote a post that was totally unrelated to my question, and totally unrelated to the entire conversation before it.
The entire premise of the conversation was that Hamas might not even exist today if Israel had only chosen to help the Palestinians.
If your entire reply to that topic can be summed up as “well, too late for that,” then I agree with you.
I fail to see the point in trying to help them if you are actively blowing them up to stop a terrorist organization, you should do that before you do anything else, it’s literally a prerequisite.
How do you feel that Israel should have reacted to the 10/7 attacks?
I’m going to ignore the first part because once again, your question is entirely unrelated to the topic.
How do you feel that Israel should have reacted to the 10/7 attacks?
Uh, by not blowing up civilians homes? Doing a better job at controlling their borders? Partner with the dozens of countries you are allied with? Yes, you are not going to stop every attack, but why retaliate to a terrorist attack by attacking a country’s civilians who do not even have anything to do with the terrorists?
Put yourself in the Palestinian’s shoes, say your country has a terrorist group that attacks another country, that country retaliates, they proceed to blow up your fucking house with your whole family in it, because there were terrorists who forced your family to allow them to quarter at the threat of death, how would you feel about that?
If you tell me that you somehow cannot sympathize with that, there is something fundamentally wrong with you as a person.
Partner with the dozens of countries you are allied with.
That’s your answer of how a nation should respond to a terrorist attack that killed 1,400 civilians, where the attached committed the most inhumane, vile atrocities?
Put yourself in the Israeli civilians’ shoes, say 1,400 of your fellow citizen - men, women, children, babies - have just been murdered by a terrorist organization that rules an adjacent territory in the most gruesome way: decapitated, shot, bludgeoned, burned to death. How would you feel about that?
And how would you feel about it if then somebody told you "well, why don’t you just control the borders a little bit better and partner with your allies?’
I’ll tell you exactly how I’d feel about that, I’d feel that you shouldn’t kill innocent people from the countries that the terrorists hail from in response, because I’m not a shitty human being. Unfortunately I don’t think I can say the same for you in good conscience.
You have avoided the main topic to try and make a point that is still unrelated to the topic at hand. We are not talking about helping Palestinians. I don’t know how you still don’t get it. You’re intentionally ignoring it and it is really starting to piss me off.
You think that bombing hospitals, schools, and homes is somehow helping the Palestinians, that is all I’ve gathered from you. If you genuinely think this, you’re insane. Those are war crimes, you cannot kill noncombatants even if it means taking out a few enemies. If you needed help with receiving food and clean water, how is someone killing you going to help with that?
Israel has shown that it does not care about the rules of conflict or setting a rule of peace and prosperity, they are no different than any of the other blood hungry countries like Russia and the US. If they are not tried for the crimes they have committed against Palestine, that should tell you everything you need to know about the world’s governments.
And no, those are not all of the answers, but they are a START. If need be, martial law can be enforced until the situation is under control, there are measures that can be taken for situations like this. There are 193 countries currently in the UN, you mean to tell me not a single one can lift a finger to help out with this situation?
I’ll tell you exactly how I’d feel about that, I’d feel that you shouldn’t kill innocent people from the countries that the terrorists hail from in response, because I’m not a shitty human being.
“I think this shouldn’t be done” is a non-answer.
You have avoided the main topic to try and make a point that is still unrelated to the topic at hand. We are not talking about helping Palestinians. I don’t know how you still don’t get it. You’re intentionally ignoring it and it is really starting to piss me off.
You’re the one who has made exactly zero suggestions about how to stop Hamas.
Have you lost even one single word about Hamas mass murdering civilians? Have you lost one single word about Hamas torturing people, beheading people, burning people alive?
No?
Why not?
Is that just acceptable to you? Are you just a shitty human being?
Or is that, to you, just something terrorists do, so we should ask, collectively, just shrug it off?
Why is stopping Hamas worth the lives of Palestinian children? I’d say it flat out isn’t and bombing the fuck out of Gaza was definitely not the right way to retaliate.
Unless maybe you actually think all Palestinians are Hamas. Seems to be a pretty common sentiment for shills these days
Not blockade the Gaza strip, for one. Israel killed Gaza's economy in 2006, keeps limiting the imports of basic goods and what we're seeing is the result. Hamas stopped rocket attacks for over a year (late 2012 to early 2014) when promised the lifting of the blockade as part of a ceasefire.
Gaza people are, by Israel's own admission, allowed fewer calories than they need to not starve to death.
Egypt and Israel are blockading the Gaza strip because it’s under the control of a terrorist organization.
If the question is “how could Israel help the Palestinians in a way that would make the threat if Hamas disappear,” how are you envisioning that this would happen if Israel ended the blockade?
Well, the cause of the current state of rocket attacks is the blockade so there's that. Like I said before, Hamas stopped rocket attacks, and tried to police other groups doing the same, for over a year in compliance with the 2012 ceasefire. They stopped because Israel only slightly loosened the blockade, and didn't lift it as they'd originally promised. So that's how this would happen if Israel ended the blockade; Israel needs to sign another ceasefire and actually follow it.
And the cause for the blockade before 2012 was that Hamas seized power in the Gaza strip, murdered its political opponents, and instituted a reign of terror where elections were suspended indefinitely, dissent was impossible, and Palestinian “collaborators” were abducted, tortured, and murdered.
And the reason for the end of the ceasefire in 2014 was that Hamas abducted the teenagers, followed by Israel imprisoning 350 Palestinian militants, followed by Hamas launching rocket attacks against Israeli civilians from Gaza.
That’s the problem, isn’t it - whatever any side does in this conflict, it’s easy to find justification for it if you only go back fast enough in history. There are more than 2000 years of history there, full of conflict between the various ethnic groups. If anyone wants to find justification for current atrocities, it’s always easy to point to atrocities previously committed by the other side.
That said: do you really believe that Hamas wild simply cease its terrorism, its atrocities, its rocket attacks, kidnappings, torture, murder and simply decide to live in peace with Israel if the blockade were to be lifted tomorrow?
And the cause for the blockade before 2012 was that Hamas seized power in the Gaza strip, murdered its political opponents, and instituted a reign of terror where elections were suspended indefinitely, dissent was impossible, and Palestinian “collaborators” were abducted, tortured, and murdered.
The blockade started in 2005. These events happened in 2006/2007.
And the reason for the end of the ceasefire in 2014 was that Hamas abducted the teenagers, followed by Israel imprisoning 350 Palestinian militants, followed by Hamas launching rocket attacks against Israeli civilians from Gaza.
The ceasefire ended without the blockade getting lifted. That's the crux of the issue. The 2008 and 2012 ceasefires were basically "you stop terrorism and we'll lift the blockade" What do you expect to happen when after that the blockade isn't lifted?
That said: do you really believe that Hamas wild simply cease its terrorism, its atrocities, its rocket attacks, kidnappings, torture, murder and simply decide to live in peace with Israel if the blockade were to be lifted tomorrow?
to be fair, Hamas would have been a thing of the Past is Netanyahu wasn’t supporting them through direct money and a bit of targeting non-radical secular groups that stood for an alternative to Hamas.
Yes, Hamas was aided by the guy using them as an excuse to kill civilians
Palestinians who are Israeli citizens (20% of the population) seem to be doing quite well and are not murdering their neighbors or advocating genocide.
Shhhh, this is an inconvenient reality that the “anti-Israel folks no matter what happens” folks conveniently refuse to learn about. Granted the Christian Arab Israelis are way more chill about not murdering people or advocating genocide, but outside of college age Muslim brotherhood males, Arab Israelis are pretty fucking chill.
I wouldn’t want to be those Palestinians living in Israel, for three days after the whole Hamas incursion happened they were getting shot openly in the street by radical Israelis, but that got about as much news coverage as the fact that Netanyahu actually aided Hamas for a long time in order to undermine the PAs ability to negotiate a two-state solution.
Remember the Palestinian diaspora? Half of the people in Gaza and the West Bank are descendants of people who fled/were expelled from Israel in 1948-1949. You can look up Benny Morris's four stage analysis for more details. Israel couldn't get a Jewish majority in Palestine, so they went for ethnic cleansing. Arab Israelis are the people they allowed to stay.
Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, and religious groups from a given area, with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing
As mentioned above, Israel is not homogeneous. They want to have safety for their people, not ethnically cleanse Palestinian Arabs. 20% of Israeli citizens are Palestinian Arabs. Wanting to ethnically cleanse is more Hamas's thing, as they explicitly target Jews.
Arab Israelis are the people they allowed to stay.
Right, because they were peaceful they have been treated differently than constantly hostile belligerents targeting and killing civilians for over 75 years. This conflict is about safety for Israel. Self-defense.
Bro look up the Palestinian diaspora then speak. 700000 people were expelled or terrorized into leaving using massacres and you're going on and on about Israel's self-defense. The IDF (or what would become the IDF) actually got orders to keep certain locations Palestinian free, which got about 140 thousand Palestinians expelled.
I am aware of it. You should look up who started that conflict, who made a one state solution not viable, who engaged in secretarian mob violence first, who rejected the UN borders and instead went to war with their neighbors over and over again, losing spectacularly every time. (I'm happy to provide sources for all these claims.)
Hint: It wasn't the Jews. Jewish terrorist groups like Irgun would eventually commit their own atrocities once the ball got rolling, but let's not forget who started this and who has the power to end this conflict even today. Reading up on the history of this conflict, it seems to me that the Jews have always wanted safety and security, while Arab Palestinians wanted to scapegoat and violently expel or kill Jews.
Is it any wonder they want distance and safety from the people who have been trying to kill them for around a century now? Yet every attempt results in people vilifying them and accusing them of genocide, because the people trying to drive them into the sea happen to be homogeneous.
Their origins go back to the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, so they would probably exist as an Islamic extremist terrorist organization in some form regardless, but obviously it would be in a completely different context and they probably wouldn’t have anything like the support that they have now.
Yeah, they’ll still exist I think, whether we like it or not. Regardless of how well Israel treats the Palestinians, Hamas still sees them as colonizers and wants them kicked out completely.
It’s been 75 years since Israel existed as a state, they’re completely accustomed to where they are now, so kicking them out and establishing a “new Jewish state” is simply gonna move the problem to a different location instead of fixing it. History repeats itself.
Your take is way more chill than the others I’ve seen that secretly support Hamas. You seem honest about the situation while others lean way too heavily on one side - which is scary to think that a rational position is a hot take nowadays.
I keep hearing that bombing civilian infrastructure is a war crime. Is intentionally building military infrastructure in and amongst civilian infrastructure a war crime? I’m honestly curious about this. How can it be a war crime to bomb civilian infrastructure when it isn’t a crime to put military infrastructure intentionally amongst civilian infrastructure for the purpose of triggering “war crime!!!” allegations? It seems like a scenario intentionally intended to create propaganda when civilian deaths inevitably occur. I’m not an international law expert or war crimes expert. But it seems like utter bullshit if one is wrong and the other isn’t.
You are doing the Palestinians forced to be meat shields a disservice. By the way, Gaza is nowhere close to the most densely populated spot on earth. Also, there’s an emoji for “meat shield”.
The UNHRC declared Israel's actions in Gaza a war crime, so yeah.
Putting military infrastructure intentionally amongst civilian infrastructure is also a warcrime, but Israel hasn't exactly been limited by that. They've bombed evacuating people many times, after telling them where/what route to take to evacuate.
Yeah both sides are in the wrong in my opinion. I get that they wanna “retake their land from the colonisers” or something, but this isn’t how to do it.
Not defending the murder of civilians, but the problem Palestinians find themselves facing is that:
1-It's not just taking their lands. Every year West Bank Palestinians are murdered or kicked off their lands to make way for Israeli settlements, with either tacit acceptance or out right support from the Israeli government, and the blockade of Gaza doesn't need to be explained.
2-Peace isn't working. The PLO renounced violence and 100% dedicated to peaceful efforts. And the result? The West Bank is now a Bantustan where Palestinian land is being forcibly taken every year. The blockade of Gaza started before Israel's popular excuse of Hamas taking charge. Israel wants Palestinians to suffer, so until that changes some Palestinians will obviously choose violence. This is just an inevitable result of peace not working.
Israel is a democracy ranked by the Economist to be more democratic than the US. All Israeli citizens have the same rights even the Israeli muslim citizens. In contrast every other country in the region discriminates against jews. Most do not let jews enter the country and have a history of previously expulsing jews. This is literally the definition of being a nazi state.
Ah yes that’s why Israel is now putting all those “citizens” in prison, raiding their homes at night, allowing settlers to hurt them, allowing politicians in the Knesset to say racist things to them. Totes a democracy ROFL
These countries have no problems with Jewish people. They don’t allow Israeli’s to enter.
Palestinians of the Westbank Gaza are not Israeli citizens because these are not Israeli territories of the UN partition plan of 1947. Why should the descendants of these people now be Israeli citizens?
Ranked higher than a country where many believe there to only be one valid party and that if the other party gains power that the entire democratic system will collapse and bring Armageddon?
No of your points can be proven, while it is easy to prove Israel is a democracy where all citizens have the same rights and all human rights inside her borders are granted.
For example religious freedom (all religions can be practiced in Israel, in contrast to many neighboring states where Islam is the only religion) or the freedom of assembly such as the recent mass protest against the government in Israel
I have two points and they’re easily proven and well documented. Israel is a fascist apartheid state.
Ahh yes, “Netanyahu is the supreme leader” and the IDF militant trope. You failed to acknowledge the other point made by another commenter that religious freedom in Israel is far greater than any of its neighbors. You also fail to mention that Arabs who aren’t violent enjoy the same rights and freedoms as other citizens. There’s also the internal Israeli unrest about the intelligence failures that allowed the Oct 7th Hamas attack.
I’m still siding with Israel in the extermination of Hamas, and the rest of the world can wring their hands all they want. Pro terrorism interference should not deter Israel from doing what they need to do, and that’s finish off Hamas.
I’m going to assume you are arguing in good faith here. It’s not that simple at all. There are a myriad of reasons why they can’t leave.
For one, Hamas won’t let them. The innocent civilians are being used as meat shields for Hamas bases. Hamas is known to guard the borders.
They also don’t have the supplies or energy at this point to make the trip. Car travel isn’t possible with everything being bombed out right now. Gaza is not big and the warzone covers the whole area it’s not safe for these people to go outside. They are hunkered down wherever they can find. Nobody is offering to come rescue them, and even if some group wanted to, they couldn’t without putting their own lives at risk from attacks or crossfire from Hamas and Israel.
I could go on, but instead I’ll just post this article from the Washington post that has a good breakdown.
If Israel were nazis, you wouldn’t hear cries of civilians injured, because 2 million would’ve been wiped out.
No. Israel is really not Nazi Germany, who killed its own citizens out of racism. Israel is fighting aggressive neighbors who will do anything to kill them. Don’t confuse the two, it’s a dangerous comparison since it’s so wrong.
Isreal has been slowly killing these people for over 50 years. They have also been killing Palestinian, American and Canadian reporters who report on it as well.
When reporters are going into active warzones, they get killed. Big shock!
And Palestinian’s deaths are just as much on the hands of Hamas as they are on the hands of Israel. Since day 1 Hamas’s creed was annihilating Israel and its citizens, and they were true on those words. Do you expect Israel to just do nothing and let them grow even larger than what they’re already are? Do Israelis deserve no safety? Israel prioritizes its citizens’ safety above that of Gazans, and no one in the world can fault them for that, since every other single state in the world would do the same.
If that were their goal 2 million would’ve been obliterated already. Stop assuming they’re racist and think what they can do from their perspective. They have over 200 kidnapped, mostly civilians, and they’re dealing with a group which proved physically that their only goal is killing civilians for terror.
Using white phosphorus? No legit source confirmed that. That’s some nice propaganda by Hamas who have been proven to lie constantly.
Idk about the 2 other claims, but it’s easy to believe them. I’d like to think they had a good reason bombing so called “safe spaces” but the truth is that there couldn’t be a safe place in Gaza right now. Not when Hamas is legit everywhere.
And about the kidnapped, do you really think they can just march into the tunnels and just grab them and say bye? Dead soldiers can’t save anyone. They’d rather kill some and actually rescue some, than keeping them alive while getting hundreds if not thousands of soldiers running to their deaths in trapped underground tunnels. Doing a ground invasion without bombing the area first is just suicide.
Seriously, what the hell do you expect Israel to do in that situation. Think for just a second from their perspective and you’ll realize what they’re doing is necessary.
Idk about the 2 other claims, but it’s easy to believe them. I’d like to think they had a good reason bombing so called “safe spaces” but the truth is that there couldn’t be a safe place in Gaza right now. Not when Hamas is legit everywhere.
And that justifies bombing trucks full of refugees?
Doing a ground invasion without bombing the area first is just suicide.
Nobody said do a ground invasion in the first place. Negotiations are obviously the way to go here.
That article literally starts with “Beirut, oc.12”. Saying lebanon are a good source of facts is delusional.
And that justifies bombing trucks full of refugees?
Again, source? And not an obviously biased one. Either way though, I can see that happening as a part of a war. Hamas are literally hiding between innocent women and babies, and that means those women and babies are killed. Does Israel have a hand in those deaths? Yes. Is Hamas responsible for those people? 200% yes and much more than Israel. Hamas started this attack very well prepared militarily, and with zero civilian infrastructure preparations. Not only did they not think of “what’ll become of our civilians” they actively hold them from running to the south (which is still less bombed than the north). Blaming Israel and protesting against Israel is just ignoring the other side being completely wrong
Oh ok so 1400 dead and 200 kidnapped and they’re supposed to just tap Hamas on the wrist and call it a day?
Israel’s response is deadly, and 100% known since day 1 by anyone who is even a bit knowledgeable on the conflict. And that includes Hamas, which just disregard their citizens as colletaral damage in the pursuit of their lunatic jihad mindset.
Interesting to me, that Israel, the country that is most well known for cyber security and big tough guys who are good at martial arts, can’t find random Hamas insurgents and take them out with precision strikes. No, it has to be artillery.
Tbh, I didn’t know Israel was known for cyber security. Guess I just think of a religious country with a big ass wall… but I’m not sure why I think of a wall. Could be World War Z
Tel Aviv is pretty much silicone valley these days with development. Every major Tech firm has an HQ there and they sell a shit load of security technology outside of that too.
Most people there aren’t necessarily religious. The government that got elected is though and it’s dragging them to the far right.
That’s because the “big tough guys who are good at martial arts” are little more than hype and doesn’t mean all that much in a military context. These overglorified “elites” (which usually turn out to be more Jeffrey Dahmer than John Rambo) have never won any wars for the countries that employ them.
That’s because the gross of the Israeli military and intelligence is bussy harassing the Palestinian on the West Bank and giving support to the “settlers” land stealing efforts.
Quite obviously, those tools don’t win you wars. The world population is huge, so a martial artist doesn’t count for much. Spying tech is useful, but it’s also something people can work around, and regardless , the difficult challenge is what to do with that data.
I read somewhere that presumably Hamas uses out of the date / primitive ways of communication to avoid being tracked online. I can’t seem to see Hamas to outperform Israel at cyber security but I can imagine them running "off network " cables via their tunnels or even using old fashion living messengers .
edit: typos
It’s Hamas. When you type in “Hammas”, it makes it sound like some kind of Hummus brigade. Arabic places emphasis on double constants (where the same consonant is at the end of one syllable and at the beginning of the next) which could change the meaning of the word. In fact, I think “Hammas” in Arabic would mean “him who encourages enthusiasm”, whereas Hamas means “enthusiasm” but is also short for the Islamic Resistance Movement.
You really think they don’t know where Hamas’ leaders are? They know, but it’s probably impossible to kill them, since they hide under hospitals in underground tunnels, and no type of ammunition can penetrate 30m deep underground without obliterating the building above it. No country in the world has faced these kinds of fighting conditions, and even the U.S had trouble fighting in the middle east because of probably these same reasons.
They’re not fighting another army, with a base and well defined targets. They’re fighting a terror organization operating from civilian homes.
Not praising the war on terror, but we very quickly identified targets and let it be known that we were invading for these specific people.
Israel’s handling of this feels like they’re just leaving it at war against bad guys/guys we don’t like very much/people that look at us funny/Jim from down the street.
Neither party is in the right. While yes Israel does normally give warning and time to evacuate in this recent conflict Israel has repeatedly told civilians to evacuate to areas and then shelled and/or bomb those areas specifically evacuation corridors. There’s simply isn’t enough area in the strip for people to evacuate or move out of the way to.
Israel is objectively in the right. The only perspective where they are not is if you are an Islamic fascist who believes God wrote the quaran to Mohammed and hamas has interpreted it correctly to say the entire world should be compelled to be a Muslim theocracy.
Every war results in civilian deaths, WW2, the civil war etc… Hamas hides behind civilians , in the history of the world there is not a nation which has taken more steps to avoid civilian casualties of its enemies than Israel
Wtf kind of rhetoric is this? There is no objectively right side in this conflict. It’s just evil people doing evil shit and the average person suffering because of it.
Yes there is an objectively right side, 1 side may not be perfect but there is 1 side that is evil- the Islamic fascists.
Like 9/11, yes america has made foreign policy errors however to hijack planes and crash them into buildings is evil. Yes they celebrated in Palestine and throughout the Arab world and civilians died hunting down al qaeda but it was appropriate to do.
If you are American you are living on colonized land, you are considered evil by the Islamic fascists, do you think someone is justified to break onto house and stab you, to target you as infidel explicitly. That is not the same as responding to that attack and the evil terrorist is hiding behind civilians (who support him) and them being killed despite taking numerous steps to avoid them.
The Islamic fascists are objectively wrong, they believe that a medieval warlords poetry comes from God and kill anyone that disagree, ISIS did this things in Kurdistan, just killing everyone and taking sex slaves. They are objectively evil and wrong and it is an intellectual and moral weakness if you can’t distinguish this
I don’t think you’ll find many people on lemmy who will agree that the US is objectively right in virtually any conflict. I remember even on the day 9/11 was happening people were saying how this was the chicken coming home to roost. Civilians don’t deserve any of this, but the actions of their country – against their will – started a chain reaction that lead to this terrorist attack.
That’s not to excuse terrorist acts. But they don’t come out of nowhere - they always feed on some legitimate grievance, or else they would have no recruits.
Yeah some people did cheer 9/11 but these are morally weak people.
If Israel killed 2 million gazans tomorrow they could say look at what they did and I don’t think the people who said the 9/11 terrorists had their reason would endorse killing 2 million Muslims.
This is what moral reasoning is, just because 1 side isn’t perfect doesn’t mean that the other side is evil or wrong.
You can see that the Islamic fascists rely obscuring issues, propaganda, yelling slogans in unison.
To parse facts is difficult but it is not difficult to see that islam is a fascist ideaology unwilling to be peaceful and Israel has made numerous steps and concessions to peace.
You could say that ISIS is justified to genocide the kurds for some reason, you can say the Nazis were justified, that Germany was decimated… It doesn’t occur in a vacuum, but then to turn around and be sympathetic to the Nazis who were bombed? Yeah many people are, they see the Nazis as justified and lament their oppression, but they are idiots.
You seem to assume that there are two possible positions: Hamas must be supported in what they do to Israelis, or the Israeli government must be supported in what they do to Palestinians. This dichotomy is bullshit. The Israeli government can theoretically be changed through democracy to put people that want to coexist with Palestinians in power. Palestine could theoretically have an anti-Hamas organization come to power who work towards coexistence.
However, the campaign of terror that Israel has waged against Palestinians for decades makes it hard for them to want coexistence. Conversely, the threat of Hamas feeds Islamophobic sentiment in Israel, allowing wannabe fascists like Bibi to gain power.
Bibi actually fucked up by not preparing for the attack and not seeing it coming in the first place. Israelis are pissed and it’s predicted that Netanyahu will lose power when things quiet down. Unfortunately, this gives the current government the perverse incentive to continually escalate the war for as long as possible while showing strength against Hamas in the hopes that right wing Israelis forgive them for their incompetence.
To change Israelis leadership, foreigners who want peace should encourage Israel to deescalate the war, and one way to do that might be to prevent both sides from getting the weapons needed to prolong the war. We should sanction Hamas and help Israel stop weapons flow into Gaza, but we should also not give Israel any weapons that fuel their attacks with high collateral damage. No artillery, try to end the blockade of essential resources by helping to police imports, and other techniques to keep Israel from widening the war. Tell them that they will not receive support if they encourage clashes with foreign adversaries. Tell them to only defend settlements in the West Bank and not carry out preemptive attacks.
I doubt Biden will do enough to deescalate, but there is a possibility that he will try to avoid a broader war. The US congress will totally give terrible weapons to Israel with bipartisan support, only helping Netanyahu stay in power.
What’s unforgivable about the response from the West is that many, like you, conflate the desire for peace with support for Hamas. It doesn’t matter if you say Hamas are fascists that must be destroyed, you have to believe that killing Palestinians is the only solution. The only way for the IDF’s strategy to destroy Hamas to work, is if they kill all Palestinians in the West Bank. They could kill 10k, 100k, 1 million, or even 2 million Gazans, but the remaining Palestinians will be no less radicalized. Hell, they’ll probably be even more radicalized than before.
The only way to kill Hamas without genocide is to give Gazans a serious way to improve their conditions. Israel should give billions to the most benevolent Palestinian organizations to invest in the country. They could give Palestinians voting rights and equal access to social services, effectively turning what is currently Isreal into a secular, federal state. The only other way that Israelis could get rid of Hamas is to turn Palestine into a maximally authoritarian police state, and in addition to being very expensive, they’ll probably have settlers push Palestinians out over time, resulting in a slower genocide.
The actual dichotomy isn’t Netanyahu or Hamas, it’s financially cheap genocide, or expensive peace, with slow and expensive genocide existing in between. Not all problems are best solved through violence.
I don’t think you know or understand the history of the conflict at all.
As I’ve said in other comments, and these are the simple facts of the conflict- that Israel has always been willing to and wanted to live in peace with Palestinians, that they accepted then 1948 partition, that they didn’t control the WB and Gaza until the 1967 war, have offered the pals states numerous times and they arabs live freely in Israel. OTOH pals have been explicit that there can be no Jewish state on any form, no Jewish presence, and vowed to fight to the death against it. These are the facts. The Jews, who are the natives of the land have made numerous concessions and the arabs who are from other places have not made any concessions from their demands which is absolute Islamic fascism.
Every ‘campaign’ of the Israelis to restrict Palestinians has been the result of massive terror campaigns which the pals have vowed to as long as Israel exists.
Maybe not every response of Israel has been exactly measured but the genesis of the conflict is clear, that the Islamic fascist are not willing to accept a non Muslim presence in any form, and they are the occupiers, Jews are the natives of the land. Everyone knows that Jerusalem, Hebron, nazereth etc… Are all cities built by Jews.
West bank and Gaza are given a ton of aid and if they accepted a state would be living in wealth, living well is not their objective or at least not the objective of the government. They say explicitly they desire death, they they love death more than Jews love life.
You are intellectually weak and have no moral spine
I’m sorry you can’t view people as anything more than a horde. It must be hard to interact with children from an out group. They may look cute and innocent, but they’re just future enemies!
I do view people as individuals and some people are individuals and some people just function as hordes. In some places that is greater proportion of people who are individuals as opposed to hordes than in other places.
And Gaza, a place where the average age is 18, would be a place with more horde members than individuals? Honestly, even if a place has large majorities that support terrible shit, killing civilians at such a high rate will necessarily kill innocents and ethical people. Even if 90% hate Jews more than they love life, 10% don’t. Hundreds of adults who wanted peace have probably been killed by Israel since Hamas’ attack, while over a thousand children too young to form an opinion have also probably died. Israel should stop the blockade at the very least. Famine and dehydration will kill the most vulnerable first, and children will die far sooner than Hamas members. It just isn’t right.
Yes more should be done to remedy gaza, and there are many terrible situations around the world where the give do terrible things. They let aid into Gaza but this is a war and there are hard choices in any war, you definitely want to avoid war.
And it is the pals who have perpetuated this endless war, if they accepted a Jewish state in any form they’d be living in peace and prosperity with no displacement. Jews are the natives people of the land and were refugees with nowhere to go during WW2. The Arabs sided with the Nazis in WW2.
Look up the 1948 partition, the size of the Jewish state which would not result in any pal displacement , most arbas living in aan Arab state and a small amount in a Jewish state.
They rejected that, they went to war against the premise of any Jewish sovereignty in the land to which they are unobjectively native. They have fought Israel in the most barbaric way only targeting civilians for decades while Israel makes measured responses. The pals priority is to fight Israel any way it can, use pals as human shields for propaganda, because they follow a fanatical , fascist , hateful religion which believes the entire world should submit to the rule of God transmitted through the quaran. That is what islam means, submission. They will fight to the death in every way. They are evil.
Israel didn’t do enough to avoid war. The Israeli government didn’t see the Hamas attack coming, or didn’t prepare for it. Islam is not indisputably fascist. Most importantly, the current IDF strategy to destroy Hamas won’t work. The only way it can realistically succeed is through genocide or the expulsion of Palestinians, and that is not a good solution.
They definitely made mistakes. For years hamas has been firing hundreds of rockets every day. You know that rocket that hit the hospital parking lot they blamed on Israel and killed so many people, they fire dozens of those at Israel everyday and the expectation is Israel shoots them down with iron dome. In what other country in the world do you have daily indiscriminate rocket attacks ? What would Americas response to daily rocket attacks be ?
Most Islamic countries are facist- they are dictatorships with non elections and no allowed opposition. Religious morality is enforced, women are killed for not wearing their scarfs and of course homosexuals are killed.
Unfortunately it’s not a good situation no matter what
Most Islamic countries are facist- they are dictatorships with non elections and no allowed opposition. Religious morality is enforced, women are killed for not wearing their scarfs and of course homosexuals are killed.
This is lacking context and so hypocritical coming from a European.
Tell me again, who backed Saudi Wahabbist Islamism over Egyptian secular Arab nationalism during the decolonisation period? It was you lot. And now your ‘homophobic’, ‘authoritarian’ bogeyman is a wealthy and powerful key ally to the US in the M.E, and somehow the blame lies fully with Muslims? Get serious.
First of all Israel is a western democracy and is not government based on Judaism any more than Britain is government based on Christianity.
Second of all there is a reason that Jewish based relations spread around the world, and that is because there is a true element which is consistent with Aristotle and Hinduism , that the nature of world is that there exists a creator being who is detached from all else. Many important things have come from this true conception of the universe, but one of them is not that the entire world should be government by the poetry of a medevil warlord
ALL abrahamic religions are founded on lies. The book of Genesis is part of the Torah and exists solely to indoctrinate prejudice against women. They are all bullshit.
That is not true. For good or bad these are the most ancient myths of humanity,stories used to transmit ideas before writing was invented and written down at the neolithic revolution.
Men and women are of different natures … In truth Adam , eve, and the snake are all one being and exists inside every person. In the story God only speaks to Adam , Adam speaks to eve and eve to the snake as this is how they are connected in the brain/soul
The snake is not specifically evil, but relates to physical needs eg food, sex.
Don’t worry, fascist… I’ll once again translate for the people that don’t speak your language - Israel is bombing the children, and white supremacists should rejoice.
You need me to translate your fascist-speak again? Sure… this time, you’re saying - I really hate it when people translate my fascist-speak into something humans can understand.
Fine… if you insist, I’ll translate your fascism-speak once more. This time, you’re saying - I really, reaaaallly hate it when people translate my fascist-speak into something humans can understand.
what are you? the worst fortune teller ever? you’ve gone off the rails so hard you are literally just pointing your finger at random people and shouting “FACIST!”
not sure what any of this has to do with the awful things going on in gaza right now.
Lots of people here sure are eager to show off their fascist sympathies by running interference for fascists who had their feels hurt by me - so I guess it’s not all that random, is it now?
Yes hamas has to be removed because they are terrorist, they will lead to the deaths of civilians on both sides and have caused many deaths. Civilians are given the opportunity to flea, they should leave, why would they stay ? To be propaganda martyrs?
You are a crisis actor, you act like you have this moral principle that we have to protect the Innocents at all costs but when the pals routinely target civilians you say nothing
Hamas targets children , the pals support it, they are the bad guys. Israel does not target civilians hamas hides behind them, they are the unobjectively the bad guys
If this is your yardstick, Palestinians are much much more likely to support killing Israelis “just because” than the other way around. There’s really no moral high ground in this conflict
Take a look at Palestinian deaths vs Israeli deaths. Israel has been much more successful at killing Palestinians “just because” than the other way around.
Israel kills more civilians than Palestinian orgs do. Palestinian orgs target civilians in a way that Israel simply doesn’t. Focusing on Israeli excesses without acknowledging how many Palestinians really, actually, want to exterminate all jews is just as disingenuous as focusing on Israeli security concerns without acknowledging the deprivations they impose on Palestinians.
In danger of repeating myself, no moral high ground to be found.
I agree, both are being terrible. The issue is nobody is saying Hamas attacking civilians are justified, so there’s no reason for me to include in every post “Hamas bad”.
There are people saying Israel killing civilians is justified, so there is reason to point out specifically “israel bad”.
It is possible to criticize one group without naming every other group on existence that is also terrible.
My first quote is from a group of Harvard students immediately following the attack on Israel. The second is from Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the President of Turkey. Do heads of state count?
Fact is Muslims live freely as equal citizens in Israel and have no desire to live under Palestinian authority.
Jews cannot live freely in a Muslim country and have had laws discriminating against Jews for hundreds of years. Judaism predates islam not only in Israel but in Iran, Iraq,syria, Egypt, Morocco and in all these places there are and have always been discriminatory laws against Jews.
Jewish people are the natives of the land, the aqsa mosque is built on the Jewish temple, the premise of Islam is there can be no Jewish state or Jewish freedom anywhere and not in the land to which they are native, it is all Muslim dictatorships from Morocco to Pakistan, they are fascist
Palestinian Moslems and Christians and Jews are very much natives of the land. It’s the same fucking people, a number of which changed religion in the 2500 years since the Diaspora started.
Denying that is the #1 lie of Israeli fascists. If you wanna be a Zionist go back to Herzl and actually strive towards living in harmony with your brothers and sisters.
There are druze , circassions, Muslim immigrants who came hundreds of years ago,.some came when the Jews came, there are many different groups but everyone knows that Jews are native to the land
So you think the Celts should kill all French and Germans, right? I mean they are native to the land, their ancestors were there before the Romans and the Germanic tribes
Jews are the natives of the land. So if you could imagine the British not allowing celts in England. Or white people not allowing native Americans in the US.
There are native people to the land who are Jewish. That does not mean that all Jews globally are native to Palestine or that only Jews are native to the land.
There are still some Celts in continental Europe (mostly in Brittany). So thus the Irish, Scottish, Cornish, Welsh, Manx, and such are all totally justified in settling and displacing everywhere their ancestors have ever lived, right?
So if you could imagine the British not allowing celts in England. Don’t you know? The Celts settled the British Isles and Ireland and displaced the people living there in the iron age
Jews originated in Israel, this is a fact. Jews have always been willing to live with arabs in Israel. It is the arbasnwho have launched war against any Jews in the land, the land to which they are native.
It would be like all the non Irish groups in Ireland saying that the Irish can’t live their etc…
And the ancient Israelites descended from people who came from outside of Israel. You cannot simply ethnically cleanse land of people whose families have lived there for many generations just because your ancestors also lived there long ago. I do not believe Jews should be excluded from Palestine either, just as Palestinians and other Arabs tend to believe. But the modern state of Israel is a settler colonial project that does indeed push out others with rightful claim to the land. The only reasonable solution, at least if we are accepting the framework of modern states, would be for Israel as it exists today to be dissolved, and the whole land formerly known ubiquitously as Palestine to become a secular democracy without prescription for religious and ethnic supremacy and exclusion, with the right to return for displaced Palestinians. This also respects the rights of many Israelis who, at this point, are multigenerational, and many of whom know no other home but Israel.
I should also point out that your portrayal of Arabs as a war-making monolith is extremely reductive and racist. Just as is your conflation of Jews and Israel.
but everyone knows that Jews are native to the land
I mean… yes and no? Filipinos aren’t native to Saudi Arabia just because they happen to be Muslim.
The Jews got ethnically cleansed out of the area ballpark 500BC when Babylonians conquered it, then when Persians conquered it less than 100 years later they were allowed to return. Islam and Christianity didn’t exist at that time. Ashkenazi in particular stem from a Jewish community in Rome, ca. 200BC, that is they’re part of the diaspora which didn’t return immediately.
Now it’s over 2000 years later and while I wouldn’t want to deny anyone the right to move to a place of religious and cultural importance to their ethnicity, but bloody behave yourselves while doing it. The Palestinians aren’t the Babylonians, they’re the descendants of people who returned early to those lands. And that’s actually what Herzl and the early Zionists did, but then nationalistic chauvinists came along, including people who aligned with fucking Nazis like the Stern Gang, and everything went, predictably, to shit. From that general fascist direction also things like forced sterilisation of black Jews in Israel.
Deal with those people, for starters, don’t have Ben-Gvir as minister for national security, accept that they’re the same shit as Hamas and Nazis just with a different coat of paint and act accordingly. Once the Israeli civil society gets around to do that a lot of people would be way more receptive to the idea of “but but Israel is the good guy here”. Once you stop making excuses for fascists and fascist rhetoric and myths. I know the average Israeli isn’t a fascist, they’re centre-left, but boy is there a blind spot when it comes to “security” rhetoric.
Arabs are native to Saudi arabia, Islam is an Arab religion but not all Muslims are arabs. It’s like the difference between being Italian and Catholic. Judaism is an ethno religion, they don’t convert and they don’t force people to convert as Muslims do.
Some pals may be defended from Jews but many groups traveled through the region over the years and there was never a cohesive Palestinian identity. Under Muslim rule there were laws against non Muslims immigrating. Under British rule Jews were allowed but so were Muslims and many Muslims immigrated at this time as Jews developed the land.
The arabs sided with the Nazis in the war and sought to restrict Jewish immigration. The British mandate of Palestine was all of current day Israel and Jordan. The Balfour declaration divided Palestine into Jordan and Israel, with Jews only allowed in Israel and Muslims allowed every where. Jordan was given to the 'heshemite ’ family who is not native, the entire country was given as a kingdom to a single family not from the region… in 1948 Palestine was further partitioned into areas where Jews were allowed and where they were not with a small Jewish state of mostly desert and swamp in Palestine, the Jews accepted and the arabs went to war. Before that point there was no Arab displacement or intention to but after the war many arabs were pushed out. Look up the 1948 partition. So at that point the Jews who were refugees from Europe were able to immigrate to Israel.
The arabs launched wars against the existence of Israel in 1955, 1968, 1973 , while Jordan controlled the west bank they never thought of making it a Palestinian state… When Israel controlled it they offered the pals states numerous times but from the beginning the pals refused because they will not recognize a Jewish state of any form as they have from the beginning, as it’s part of their fascist religion
I don’t see why there can’t be a Jewish state, and furthermore why Jews can’t live freely in the west bank, in Jordan, and even in Iraq , of Muslims can live freely in Israel why it the reverse ? Even under the occupation pals in the west bank have a better quality of life than most Arab countries and Gaza was way better off before Hamas. Israel has made rons of concessions to peace and that was their mistake, because they were naive leftists who believed that if they make steps towards peace the pals will reciprocate. What happened was they gave pals an inch , the pals used everything for terrorism, Israel clamped down and now the Islamic fascist regime uses thata as a pretext for terrorism.
Israel has made rons of concessions to peace and that was their mistake
No. The mistake was to first not nib groups like the Stern Gang in the bud, and then later on let that kind of thinking fester. You’re talking about wars against Israel’s existence but don’t mention that there were Jews in mandate Palestine which organised massacres against Arabs.
Are you aware of the term “Vergangenheitsbewältigung”? Israel has to face that aspect of its past. Come to terms with it. Stop casting themselves as only always the victim and ever only the victim and oh are all others always so mean, but instead accept, as history and as responsibility, that the state was funded in part on things like this:
Neither Jewish ethics nor Jewish tradition can disqualify terrorism as a means of combat. We are very far from having any moral qualms as far as our national war goes. We have before us the command of the Torah, whose morality surpasses that of any other body of laws in the world: “Ye shall blot them out to the last man.”
Yep that’s Stern Gang. Remember that, as well as that they tried to ally with the Nazis, the next time you try to cast Palestinians as Nazis, or, worse, try to make them responsible for the Holocaust.
Jews faces discrimination in every Arab country. When the ottomans controlled Palestine there were laws against Jewish immigration, and of course not Muslim immigration. Yes Islam has been fascist for many centuries. Jews were restricted from immigrating and then when they were able to they attacked and responded to various degrees. It’s ridiculous to think that it’s not Muslims who instigated the attacks… Do you think small numbers of Jews immigrated and immediately attacked Muslims ?
It’s ridiculous to think that it’s not Muslims who instigated the attacks… Do you think small numbers of Jews immigrated and immediately attacked Muslims ?
Read up on the Stern Gang, please, on Kahanites, and so on. Even forget about Arabs for a second: The current Israeli minister of national security once called for the assassination of Rabin. Is that or is that not an example of something being quite not right within Israeli civil society. How can such a person, possibly, have a public office. People are getting arrested for “aiding the enemy” for speculating publicly about how a Gaza invasion could go down, without any access to or leak of secret information – merely educated guesses. Go down further that road and pudding prices will be the least of your problems. The Nazis didn’t come for the Jews first, Jews were like at least fifth in line, it’s going to be the same in Israel: First the Smolanin, then the socdems, then the liberals. And then the Arabs.
Or you can stick your head in the sand and kvetch while fascists are taking over the country.
Read up the kahanites? A fringe group which was outlawed… Read up on hamas, the government of gaza. You sound like a lunatic, the Nazis didn’t prioritize coming for the Jews ? You must be 12
If you claim that Otzma Jehudit (remember: Part of the governing coalition) isn’t Kahanite then you’re either utterly naive or one of them and trying to gaslight. Also: Did Ben-Gvir call for Rabin’s assassination? Yes or no? Why is the man allowed to be in power, curious that you ignored that one.
Read up on hamas, the government of gaza.
A dictatorship which came to power before 50% of current Gazans were even born, much less could vote. Netanyahu and his Kahanites were last voted into power in 2022. Try again.
You sound like a lunatic, the Nazis didn’t prioritize coming for the Jews ? You must be 12
The Nazis started killing Communists in 1933. While persecution of Jews started also in 1933, there was ample time to flee, and many did – Communists, trade unionists etc. weren’t given that chance. Historians differ a bit on the actual start of the Shoah, but the start of the war with the attack on Poland (1939) is a popular date to put it at.
Of course Nazis first prosecuted political opponents, groups which could actually stop them, before implementing their further goals. Nazis are idiots but they aren’t stupid.
Kahane is illegal in Israel, no Ben gvir did not threaten to kill rabin 30 years ago when he was w teenager. I ignored it because it is ridiculous.
All Muslim states are dictatorships , pals support Hamas, maybe they are brainwashed but then everyone should be calling for the removal of Hamas right?
The Nazis did not allow Jews to flee, everyone knows this, the things you say are childish.
The original party, yes. Somehow, much unlike Germany, Israel doesn’t automatically outlaw successor organisations. Also if you want to call Otzma Yehudit something else they’re still vile fascists so same shit, different coat of paint.
no Ben gvir did not threaten to kill rabin 30 years ago when he was w teenager.
Quoth him, 1995: “We got to his car, and we’ll get to him too.” Look it up. Also, as you mention it: What he did as a teenager. Hint: Being a Kahanite.
All Muslim states are dictatorships
False. I think Malaysia ranks highest among majority-Muslim countries, between Lithuania and Slovakia, both EU members.
pals support Hamas, maybe they are brainwashed but then everyone should be calling for the removal of Hamas right?
The Nazis did not allow Jews to flee, everyone knows this, the things you say are childish.
No, they are educated about history, and the world. Something you do not seem to be. Persecution ramped up slowly, emigration only turned into mass flight in 1938, that long people stayed in the country even though they had lost pretty much all civil rights in 1935.
It’s possible for more than one thing to be true at the same time.
It’s true that Hamas is a terrorist organization, yes.
However it’s also true that the Israeli government is undertaking actions which are fitting for a genocidal, fascist government. Do you seriously thing that their 24 hour evacuation notice sent to an excess of 1 million people who had/have no power, water, heat, or communications is reasonable?
They can’t go into Israel because they are murderous terrorists. There is no reason they can’t go into Egypt. If they broke into Egypt the egyptians would kill all of them and no one would complain.
If they broke into Egypt the egyptians would kill all of them
🤦♂️I can’t believe you’ve been internally inconsistent twice in a row after it being pointed out.
Let me get this straight: Every, single, person in the Gaza strip is a terrorist, and they are simultaneously not trapped, and if they try to leave they would be killed.
Pro tip: say things back to yourself once before saying them. Just to make sure they’re not dumb.
The cognitive dissonance you have is mind-blowing (this means you think conflicting things to justify your hateful beliefs)
The pals would like to go to Egypt, Egypt won’t let them in, if pals tried to force their way in Egypt would kill them because they don’t want them. How hard is that to understand ?
Do you have another explanation for why pals aren’t going to Egypt? I remember a couple of weeks ago there was a lie that Israel bombed the rafah crossing but it was made up like everything else. So what’s your answer ?
What’s your answer? You’re saying they aren’t allowed in Israel, can’t go to Egypt or they’ll get killed, and if they stay where they are they’re going to get bombed.
Yeah they are. First of all pals aren’t a race, they are arabs and there are hundreds of millions of arbas.
Secondly the causality in this conflict are in no way ‘genocidal’ even if you were to consider pals a race. They’ve been given warning to flee the fighting, it’s simply a term being used as propaganda, 'the genocide of children '…
They’re not being killed because of who they are, they are being killed because they launched a war. They are ‘genocidal’ against Jews, it says openly in their charter.
You can look back at history and see Israel has been willing to live in peace with pals, offered numerous states, arabs live freely in Israel, pals have waged war against any Jewish presence in the land, they are genocidal.
Israel is giving notice before they attack to flea, the pals intentionally target civilians. Of course the people attacking civilians are going to lie about everything. It is the most pathetic and disgusting people
“gen·o·cide [ˈjenəˌsīd] NOUN the deliberate killing or severe mistreatment of a large number of people from a particular national or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.”
Genocide has never been about race. Many of the historic genocides have been commited by people of the same race just another distant group in that race.
Uh... I know this is too much for your brain to comprehend, but Arabs (the race) are only people from the Arab peninsula. Palestinians, along with Jordanians and the like, are Levantine, a completely different ethnic group.
Would you rather I call it by some fluffy, feel-good term like special operation? Elimination of the enemy? Opening a retaliatory assault on the Gaza strip while running a propaganda campaign aligning Hamas with groups like Isis or the Nazis, and portraying the Palestinian people as wholly supporting Hamas does nothing but provide justification for civilian casualties.
You are correct that a country may not normally provide advance warning of assault, however an unreasonable warning is as good as no warning and again, only serves to justify the deaths of any innocents that weren’t able to evacuate in time.
Israel has one of the best special forces units on earth, total control of what comes in and out of the strip, and the funding of the world’s second largest military, and you seriously believe they need to commit to clicking the delete button on the Gaza strip to remove a militant group from an area smaller than new york?
Several days of warning is more than sufficient, most people have in fact evacuated.
Israel does not control everything as you can see Hamas has thousands of rockets despite Israels efforts.
If pals indiscriminately fire rockets, the fact Israel doesn’t indiscriminately fire rockets is restraint. There are conflicts like this all of the Mideast and the reason they don’t fire rockets into Saudi arabia or syria is because they would kill them by the millions.
Hamas has broad support from pals, but if they don’t then what is your issue in the war to remove them ?
With all honestly, especially with the massacres that have been taking place last night, where Israel cut off all internet and networks, making it impossible for ambulances to operate, it really is Israel creating propaganda against Palestinians, not very different from how Nazi Germnay made up bullshit about Jews, a lot of propaganda not too different from the propaganda being used to justify murdering Palestinian children. Netanyahu is butchering Palestinians in Gaza now under the idea of a “final solution”. Israel’s constant obsession with not covering news from Gaza is no different from Nazi Germany hiding their atrocities from the public. Palestinians are considered “outsiders”, just like the Jews in Nazi Germany. There are apartheid areas that Palestinians can’t enter even though the territory was supposed to be under Palestinian rule. Palestinians are losing their jobs, losing their homes, their shops, not much different. Being demonized, deported, ignored, tortured, all of these are things Palestinian victims and holocaust victims have together.
Ambulances cant operate without the internet ? Ok. It’s a war, there will be suffering. Hamas could release the hostages and stop firing rockets…
Pals don’t have freedom because they are at constant war. They had every opportunity for a state and they chose war. Pal territory was controlled by Jordan and Egypt until 1966 and there was war
Pals are given the opportunity to flea a war zone, it is nothing like the Holocaust. This isn’t even like black September, the Syrian civil war or any other Arab conflict where the Muslims are much more severe let alone the Holocaust. Even if Israel killed literally millions of Palestinians it would not be like the Holocaust , the pals are devoted to fighting the jews, the Jews were not a threat to Germany in any way.
Ambulances cant operate without the internet ? Ok. It’s a war, there will be suffering. Hamas could release the hostages and stop firing rockets…
Pals don’t have freedom because they are at constant war. They had every opportunity for a state and they chose war. Pal territory was controlled by Jordan and Egypt until 1966 and there was war
Pals are given the opportunity to flea a war zone, it is nothing like the Holocaust. This isn’t even like black September, the Syrian civil war or any other Arab conflict where the Muslims are much more severe let alone the Holocaust. Even if Israel killed literally millions of Palestinians it would not be like the Holocaust , the pals are devoted to fighting the jews, the Jews were not a threat to Germany in any way.
You can understand the cynicism though. The occupation has been 75 years long. And it’s well known that Netanyahu wanted the secular faction weakened and had funded Hamas to do it. The Mossad also begged Qatar to fund Hamas.
Notice how no one pleaded at thousands of rockets fired at Israel. I would have supported their cause 100% had they been critical of Hamas’ rockets as well. But no, it’s stop the bombs when they hit us… for everyone else, fuck 'em.
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