“Kill em all”. Canadian here. Disabled folks like myself have been taking this route for a while now simply because they can’t afford to live any longer. That’s pretty fucked. Canada doesn’t want anything to do with us or the “junkies”. They’d rather we die.
Bingo. The health administrator just wants to go “hey I don’t want to give this person naxolone but I also don’t want to face any consequences.”
The “legality” side of committing suicide in a drug addicts case is a red herring. It’s incredibly easy to kill yourself on fentanyl even accidentally. with or without legality.
This is only okay if the client asks for it under lucid understanding. And I support it. “Pushing” this from any government agent should be illegal. I will take this route when I reach a certain quality of life threshold.
Why is there always such a shitshow when it comes to these laws? In Switzerland we have EXIT which is also assisted suicide. Nobody cares that it exists, it is just a reasonable system.
Because the conditions applied always seem to be revolving around removing undesirables within Canada. This example makes people fear that Canadian hospital workers will begin pressuring drug addict patients to kill themselves, or even darker, signing them up for euthanasia without their knowing or consent.
It might be impossible where you are from (because it’s better implemented or controlled there, I don’t know) but in Canada our health care has turned to shit (our healthcare system was struggling pre-pandemic and is now even worse). There were instances of First Nation mothers being forced or strongly encouraged immediately after giving birth (when they aren’t of sound mind) to be sterilized. If something as horrendous as that can happen, it’s not much of a stretch to believe that bad acting health care workers might try to force people who are vulnerable to agree to euthanasia.
The veterans don’t seem to be such a huge case as the headline suggests. It clearly isn’t systematic and the individual cases sound more like frontline workers who made mistakes instead of malicious intent.
And the sterilizations are clearly systematic racism and not a way to save the apparently fragile healthcare system.
Canada does not have a great history, given the (shockingly recent) sterilization of indigenous women.
Also, worth noting that assisted suicide had been around in Canada for awhile, and not without it’s problems that seem quite like those described by the person you were replying to, including some specific cases:
These were quite interesting. I don’t really see OP’s claims being supported by the examples given. They either don’t really make sense as the cases wouldn’t be allowed for MAID (according to the article) as they do not meet the requirements of the law. Or they seem to be individual cases where someone mistakenly suggests MAID where they shouldn’t have. That is bad but not malicious intent. And the last article is just an opinion piece claiming all countries with MAID are going down a suicide highway.
There are obviously issues in Canada, like the meagerly 1400$ people apparently get when they are unable to work due to medical conditions (back home we pay 80% of whatever they made before they had to quit).
But I can not see these horrific scenarios that I always read about when these laws are being discussed. It sounds like the government is collecting people on trucks to kill them off. Which very obviously is not the case or they are extremely amazing at hiding it.
There is a long list of steps that have to be put into place before someone is even elected for MAiD recommendation by a doctor.
Then there is a 3 step consent process in which the patient must be lucid. Maybe people who want MAiD are unable to successfully give the last step of consent unfortunately. I myself had to watch my grandmother die slowly rather than though MAiD like she wanted because she lost lucidity.
Between those steps either a doctor or a pharmacist will get in touch with the patient to go over the steps of MAiD again.
The drugs for MAiD aren’t over the counter. After all of the above steps are done then the pharmacist does up the compounds. Every Pharmacist I know triple checks their paper work and thier medications.
Then they would either provide MAiD in hosiptal or make a home visit. At the moment handing off the compounds to the family is not allowed here.
There are so many steps and checks and paperwork that no one is getting MAiD signed up against thier will.
It is a symptom of many disorders. That’s what is wrong with this thing entirely. It lets everyone off the hook of helping someone who could be helped but instead they just want to sit back and judge them for taking the painkillers some doctor put them on.
In addition to having a mental disorder that has been there for a very long time and that is significantly impairing their function, treatments have to have been tried and those treatments have to be treatments that are expected, usual, and evidence-based
Hey so just to give you some context assisted suicide already exists in Canada for the terminally ill.
This is not that.
I don’t think the thing you are comparing to is the same situation is where government is purposely leaving behind depressed and people with disabilities or really any negligible problem and then offering them death as the only option. How do you get out of feeling guilt of not building a ramp for someone with a wheelchair? Oh just tell them to go kill themselves as their only option.
It’s a situation where you just don’t have a doctor to help you stay healthy but you have a doctor to help you die.
The great passive aggression of political classism Canada 2023.
They are actually making Britain look like the compassionate ones. That’s saying something.
will be expanded next March to give access to people whose sole medical condition is mental illness, which can include substance use disorders.
So not drug use, but mental health conditions which the government considers drug addiction to be.
This will never be used by a drug addict. It will be used by people with untreatable and severe schizophrenia or similar afflictions. If you don’t want to live in a nightmare world with no hope I think it should be your right to end it peacefully.
I get suicide makes people uncomfortable, but you’re uncomfortable with it in a cozy apartment and good health. You think your protecting vulnerable people from a big scary government, but you’re just forcing them to suffer needlessly.
No, people against assisted suicide are likely the same types that say “life begins at conception” or “the death penalty is perfectly fine the way it is”. I don’t think they think beyond how they can control other people’s lives.
Given that the intent here is to make assisted suicide legal for people who by definition are not of sound mind what protections are in place for people who would qualify for assisted suicide by way of mental health issues but also might not be fully competent to make this decision themselves? Who can step in and say that the patient actually is competent, and by what standards is that judged? Who can step in and say a patient that wants assisted suicide is not competent, or has been manipulated? I’m not worried about people who are genuinely suffering, the fact is we’ve never been able to stop them from killing themselves and we never will be. I’m worried about someone putting poison in the ear of someone with a treatable disorder, convincing them to “do the right thing and not be a burden”.
Fight to make these services easier to access then. If they are easier to access, the poison wont take. If you waste all your pooitical energy fighting this, and then dont have enough to fight for better social supports and easier access to them, well then you’ve just made things worse
Edit: I’ve chosen life, I know how dark depression and hopelessness gets, but I’ve also been abandoned by my family and original community, and have spent almost a decade now being my own support network in a metropolis where I cant keep a community for very long. Our social support systems are GARBAGE right now and if I ever DID end up chosing death, I wouldnt want some bleeding heart like you who’s going to fight this instead of making community supports easier to access blocking me from ending my suffering. Living alone with multiple different conditions that prvent you from being stabily employable is fucking hard, and if it’s not something you’ve chosen its cruel to leave someone with no way out if it
Edit 2: I like the downvotes with no comments, really shows that people want to just be against something to feel good about themselves without having to think about the consequences of denying said thing
Not many really ever look into safeguards of these programs and let their imaginations take the reins. Here’s the basics of MAID.
The things you need to get the process started is sign off from two doctors or nurse practitioners from two completely independant medical practices who are not directly involved in any long term care planning for the patient and are not experiencing any financial incentive. Doctors are allowed to refuse participation for any reason. They also must have demonstrated expertise in treatment of the condition for which someone is using as their reason for seeking MAID.
In the event of a non terminal illness one also needs a witness to back up your decision to pursue MAID to sign off on all the papers. There are some restrictions about who can count as a witness but in addition to those this person cannot :
-benefit from your death -be an unpaid caregiver -be an owner or operator of a health care facility where you live or are receiving care
The law requires all other potential services and harm reduction strategies be discussed as options and made available and stress is to be put on that you can opt out of the process at any time.
Once the paperwork is signed it begins a 90 day minimum assessment period. Witnesses found to be in violation of any of the witness or doctor restrictions are liable to be criminally charged.
People without decision making capacity are ineligible to apply for MAID. If their case is degenerative they can waive their final consent requirements but people can legally specify under a different program in palliative care a pre-determined termination criteria to pick what level of mental degeneration activates the order and it must be signed off on while the person is of sound mind or else your only choice is a naturally occuring death.
Lastly the final assessment requires active consent and cannot be in a state judged to be mentally incapable of decision making authority unless they previously waived that requirement. The person must be given every opportunity to opt out.
Finally the assessment request now requires a mandatory sign on for data collection for posterity. This is for purposes of determining if the system is being potentially exploited requiring the data in regards to identifying whether race, Indigenous identity and disability seek to determine the presence of individual or systemic inequality or disadvantage in the context of or delivery of MAID. The data regarding everyone who seeks the program, the doctors and the witnesses who signed on and those who decided later not to pursue then is referred to an investigative inquest body and the presence of the program has to be occasionally reviewed by federal Parliament and actively renewed over a predetermined cycle.
So what’s stopping two Kevorkian’s from just signing off on everything?
You can pretend that safeguards will prevent undesirable deaths (like say patient manipulation, or informed consent which Canada has stopped pretending to care about), but the permissibility alone makes it inevitable.
Backflips and somersaults scenario. How many people in every hospital right now are spending the last week of their lives suffocating? Dozens? Hundreds? Thousands?
You invent scenarios to make MAID unpalatable. The people who want MAID have actually lived through reality.
It’s unfortunate that people want to die and they physically can’t kill themselves at that moment, but there is no moral obligation to grant desires that people can’t fulfill themselves. (There is also the autonomy objection, even if the patient has perfect decision making, killing them now derives then if any future decision making).
We do have an obligation to prevent unreasonable deaths, especially if we are the one’s actively killing them as is the case with MAID.
Therefore a system that potentially (or rather inevitably) causes moral bad without any moral good, is not a morally good system and has no benefit to existing.
The reality is that unreasonable deaths will happen, and expanding it (and lowering the thresholds) will increase the percentage of assisted suicides that don’t meet some metric of moral permissibility.
There is also the societal harm objection, if illnesses/conditions are treated by euthanasia, and euthanasia becomes a popular way of death (like it is increasingly so in Canada) the incentive to improve treatment of those conditions is weaker. It does not result in a improving society in the long run if euthanasia is an acceptable option to certain conditions (note, this refers to more than just medical health but also living or social conditions).
Part of the system works off of a similar system to triplicate prescriptions which has a cooling effect. Basically every time a single doctor signs off on this it gets flagged in the system along with what other doctor is doing it. Doctors know their data is being tracked by an active investigative body, physical hard copies are required and who their second doctor is is relation to their participation is actively logged and guaged. A two kevorkian system would set up a red flag and cause an in depth investigation with potential criminal persecution.
Not saying that it could not happen but it would create an undue legal risk for any doctors who would try it and doctors are made very aware of the data logging requirements of the program.
Good to see at least someone around here has some fucking clue regarding the purpose of this law…
Just “feeling mentally unwell”, as another commenter put it, is not enough to qualify. The law specifically requires the applicant “experience unbearable physical or mental suffering from your illness, disease, disability or state of decline that cannot be relieved under conditions that you consider acceptable” and "be in an advanced state of decline that cannot be reversed"
If someone makes a “request for medical assistance in dying, 2 independent medical practitioners (physicians or nurse practitioners) must assess it.”
And that’s just a couple of the high bars one must clear to qualify.
But, I can say this about Lemmy: given the quality of the discussion on this post, this place really has turned into an excellent replacement for Reddit!
Medical Assistance in Dying (MAID) is a process through which a doctor or nurse practitioner assists an individual, at their request, to intentionally end their life[2]. The process for MAID in Canada involves the following steps:
Eligibility: To access MAID in Canada, you must meet specific eligibility criteria. You must be at least 18 years old, capable of making decisions with respect to your health, and have asked for MAID yourself without any pressure from others. You must also have a grievous and irremediable medical condition, which means that you have a serious and incurable illness, disease, or disability, you are in an advanced state of irreversible decline in capability, and your illness, disease, or disability causes you enduring physical or psychological suffering that is intolerable to you and cannot be relieved under conditions that you consider acceptable[5].
Request: If you wish to request MAID, your health care provider will ask you to complete and submit the Request for Medical Assistance in Dying form. By submitting this form, you are formally asking for MAID and stating that you believe you meet all the eligibility criteria[2].
Assessment: Two independent medical practitioners must assess your eligibility for MAID. They will review your medical history, conduct a physical examination, and discuss your options for care. They will also discuss your decision with you to ensure that you are making an informed choice[2].
Final Consent: You must provide final consent immediately before receiving MAID. You can withdraw your request for MAID at any time and in any manner, even if you are found eligible for MAID[4].
Procedure: MAID can happen in one of two ways: a doctor or nurse practitioner gives a drug to the patient that causes the patient’s death, or a doctor or nurse practitioner prescribes a drug for a person, at the person’s request, that the person can swallow and cause their own death[5].
The 2021 revisions to Canada’s MAID law enhance data collection and reporting to provide a more comprehensive picture of how MAID is being implemented in Canada, including under the new provisions. The monitoring regime is important to supporting transparency and public trust in how MAID is being delivered[1].
Except all of that is bullshit now, because now they’re allowing drug addiction to be a qualifying condition to get assisted suicide, and you’re trying to cover up how fucked up that is with outdated information and lies.
Jesus Christ, people. Just because you want a policy in place doesn’t mean it isn’t harmful. Would it fucking kill you to be honest about one damn thing?
This is completely bullshit about what it really is about. Anyone with an addiction can easily commit suicide. It’s not exactly something they need ‘help’ with to do. Passing a law about just allowing that seems suspect. Suspect in that I don’t think it’s about ‘allowing’ but more ‘encouraging’ or just not injecting someone ODing for the umpteenth time with naxolone and not facing any legal consequences with corrupt/inept lawyers. They should just come out and fuckin say it. It’s a class war. Nothing to do with empathy.
This seems reasonable. Lucid only, there’s a big talk about it, gernerally seems in-line with how other countries handle it. If you were slowly dying of rabies, prions, ebola, rat-lungworm, or other terrible maladies/injuries, I could see this being beneficial.
This is already in place in Canada. They want to take it further and just off the people who inconvenience the upper class but without getting their hands dirty doing it themselves. Just want the ‘unwashed to go away’
When you really consider it, anyone with an addiction can easily commit suicide. It’s not exactly something they need ‘help’ with if that was a conscious intent. So a law to allow this is a misnomer and a bit on the nose of what it really is about: class war.
I know multiple doctors involved in the panels that make these decisions and the people that have negative and abusive views towards drug addicts don’t really get input into this process.
If you can find a panel of doctors stack full of fucking assholes who want addicted people to die. That’s a different story, but I would argue the people I know involved in this processing. Canada albeit just a few of them are genuinely good people who don’t judge you for the issues you’re going through and just want you to be helped and at peace.
Yeah the risk with panels: look at the SCJ right now. Its supposed to be an ethics committee but almost all of them got in there doesn’t have a shred of ethics.
So if you’re relying on a panel of voted doctors It’s just a bribe away from complete negligence and apathy to human life over a slight inconvenience and $$.
For the last two months I’ve been seriously considering taking my own life. What holds me back is that I’ll severely fuck up my loving family, my mum, dad and brothers and my girlfriend/ex-girlfriend (it’s complicated). It would hurt them so much. If it wasn’t for them I would have already done it.
So what I want to know is why shouldn’t I just end my 33 year old Swedish life right now when there’s just too much stuff to battle. Before I wanted to battle my way through this. But I can’t take this anymore. I’ve never posted something like this before. Sorry everyone. I don’t know why I did it.
I hope you have someone to talk to about this. Your life is worth living, the people who you don’t want to hurt love you and want you in their lives even if it’s complicated.
I’m not qualified to answer this even though I want to help you. If you are considering suicide please don’t. Please find a helpline and talk to someone who can help you so much better than me.
Hey there, I’m sorry to read about these thoughts you’re having. I urge you to consider using one of the services available to you in Sweden and talk to someone about it here : mind.se/chatt/
Wish you all the best get better man life is worth living it’s all we have.
I’ve been in a very dark place myself a few times. Knowing that my wife is and will always be there for me is the only thing that gave me hope for the future, even when I was at my lowest. I don’t know what you’re struggling with but I can tell you from my own experience, the darkness is not permanent.
As other commenters have said, please take advantage of the help that’s available. Your life is valuable, you are worthwhile, and the present is not the future.
Hey thanks for posting this. I understand you are feeling the fight is too long and too big. With everything going on in the world it can feel pretty defeating. You have a lot of people around standing through it with you. Please reach out to anyone close by.
I think the brain can go through waves of defeat and sometimes it’s the feelings we might have we just want to have a break from it. Can you workshop a bit with these feelings? Do you have a workbook maybe you can write out everything that is happening right now that you just hate and bringing up these feelings, places, people and things. You don’t have to worry about showing it to anyone. It’s purely just for you. No shame. It’s to just put it somewhere so you don’t feel like you’re abandoning it but just like file it so you can have a break from it.
After that :write out how you feel about your family and girlfriend and the ex(and however it’s complicated) and write out how you feel about them. Maybe write out why you want to stick around for all of them.
After that: write out as if you’re someone who isn’t you but as a witness to yourself. Like a summary or just a separate entity, maybe you from the future or past (or both) or a role model, what would you say to you to help you?
I can see you’re doing it here already. So keep doing it. Write it all out.
It’s Canada. We aren’t the smiling plucky canucks that the international community thinks we are. We’re tired, boss. We have some of the worst incidence rates for opioid addiction in the world, the most expensive real estate, politicians that actually don’t do anything except self-deal and play culture war games, a massive overpopulation crisis, a jobs crisis, a grocery cost crisis (all told, they call it a cost of living crisis). They literally invented MAID so that people with terminal cancer can take the painless path out, but now it’s being discussed for literally anyone who is feeling mentally unwell.
Here’s another where a woman with sensitivities to various chemical smells chose to die because she couldn’t find an apartment that was affordable and didn’t reek of noxious chemicals
The people who are worried about this aren’t worried about people who genuinely want to die committing suicide. It was always nearly impossible to stop them anyway, and there’s no way to change that. What we’re worried about is people being pushed toward MAID because they’ve been systemically denied things they need to live that are absolutely available. We’re worried about mentally ill people being told “do the right thing, don’t be a burden” when they want to live. We’re worried about suicide becoming the answer to problems that are caused by social and legislative conditions. We’re worried about becoming the kind of society where, rather than help one another, it’s expected that anyone who needs help just off themselves.
This is all coming from someone who tried twice and will be eternally grateful that I managed to fuck it up both times.
This is what the anti-suicide crowd fucking told you would happen if you legitimized or legalized suicide, and now that it’s happening, you’re once again refusing to connect it with supporting bad policies with no thought or consideration for the consequences.
But you’re not the one who’s gonna suffer so why should you give a shit, amirite? 🤷
I love it when you are so hopped up on the smell of your own shit that you give away you’re just being a skeevy fuck by trying to make the discussion all about your opponent’s emotions and not about the topic at hand.
You didn’t consider at all what I said isn’t only directed at you, but who cares as long as you get to win something?
What we’re worried about is people being pushed toward MAID because they’ve been systemically denied things they need to live that are absolutely available.
Like here, where you are steadfastly defending assisted suicide and not acknowledging anywhere this is what opponents told you would happen. And you argue you want it both ways afterward and you don’t get that you can’t have it both ways; humanity is too immature and tyrannical for that, so if you want to save the impoverished people being targeted for suicide, you have to ban ALL legally assisted suicide outright. There is no middle ground with depraved fucks in western governments.
But you don’t care about the topic, you just want to win an argument on the internet. Well, here’s your trophy 🏆 But the policy is still bad and you’re still wrong for defending it.
I’m all for a painless way out for people who genuinely have no hope, who are going to die a painful death or live an existence of torture where there is zero medical, technological, or social solution to ease their lives.
But it’s crazy to me that so many people are against the death penalty because of the risk of a mistake, but they’re perfectly okay with assisted suicide that has zero oversight. You’d have thought they’d absolutely see this coming since they know how little the 1% cares about them.
I got close to trying several times. I suffer from anxiety and depression, I’m obsessive but I love life. I just wish I could solve my mental issues. Offing yourself is not a solution. It’s like I have a math question in front of me and I rip up the paper and toss it in a can.
It’s already happening, and the eugenics apologists have been falling all over themselves to say “OH UHHH THOSE WERE JUST DOZENS OF ISOLATED INCIDENTS PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE FASCISTS BEHIND THE CURTAIN”
I do hate this, but at least dying is not an illegal thing to do to oneself, but at the same time, I don’t want people to die, even if they decided to. On top of that, there has to be a better way to deal with addiction than allowing someone to just die. Plus, there is a stupid loophole brewing where people who decide not to die could be documented as wanting to die by some powerful individuals. All around, a bad thing to legalize and the administrative problems it would bring
I don’t want people to suffer even if they decided to. There’s this stupid loophole where people are convicted of crimes they didn’t do because the government is theatre.
All around, people should maintain their own propriety.
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