This looks like a Subaru. That being said, from what I’ve parsed, their privacy policy looks better than most. My 2021 hasn’t had any obnoxious OTA updates. The worst it does is push easily dismissed service notifications. No secret codes on how to reset a light.
Yeah, pretty much all new cars have some amount of cellular connectivity. Usually you can’t actually use it without paying some subscription, but the manufacturers use it to push updates.
Which is interesting to say the least given that most cars from the past few years use LTE radios which will eventually work about as well as cars from the early 2000s with OnStar.
I mean, I don’t like my car updating but I’d rather things get fixed than not. Software recalls are a huge headache in the auto industry, and being able to just download an update that fixes something is way easier than going to a dealership and having them use very specific tools and software to update the car/modules.
It’s also used for anti-theft features for a lot of newer cars, if your car is stolen it can be remotely disabled entirely. That’s really what’s more scary in my opinion.
In over 32 years of driving and having owned dozens of cars I’ve only ever had one stolen.
It was 29 years ago and was actually my (now ex) girlfriend’s car and even that one only got stolen because I had a spare key to it in my glovebox and forgot to lock my truck’s doors that night.
I’ve had my current 2 for 4 years and 5 years respectively.
I don’t think it’s that unusual to have owned dozens of cars over the course of more than 3 decades, particularly when typically owning multiple at any given time.
Oh, I didn’t think about having multiple cars. Are you a big car guy?
I’m in my early 40s, and I’ve owned two cars. I bought my current car after the last one got rear-ended.
Sidenote, I’m not counting cars that belonged to spouses or the car I drove in college – technically, that one belonged to my parents. If you add those in, I’m probably up to 6 or 7 cars.
Obviously I’m a bit older than you but I had three identical first cars because two of them were basically bought to be parts cars after I wrecked the first one.
I’m not really counting cars that belonged to spouses or significant others in the dozens of cars I’ve owned either (despite using an ex girlfriend’s car as the example of the one that “I” had stolen).
But yeah, there’s been a number of times over the years that I’ve personally owned multiple vehicles… Sometimes as many as 3 or 4 at a time (not including motorcycles and mopeds that I’ve owned).
Honestly, I can’t even imagine what it would be like having only owned two cars in my whole life.
Typically, 5 years or so is about the longest I’ve owned any individual vehicle.
Honestly, I can’t even imagine what it would be like having only owned two cars in my whole life.
Easy, just think back to when you were driving your second car ;)
What typically prompts you to buy a new car?
For me, it’s always been that I “need” a car for commuting, so I’ve looked for something reliable and efficient (I put “need” in quotes because technically, the bus routes in my city could have gotten me to work without a car. Turning a 20 minute drive into a 90 minute bus ride isn’t super palatable, though).
I bought my first car used and my second car new around the time Cash for Clunkers was affecting the used car market.
The car has some form of AT&T GSM connectivity. I recently discovered a WiFi hot spot setting and it’s a paid service provided by AT&T. I am able to schedule service appointments via the car, and it has an SOS button and an “Info” button that primarily is for roadside assistance. I’d prefer to be able to disable it. I was gonna say I thought Subaru was a bit better. Buttttt it looks like I’m wrong.
It is a Subaru. I know it has a radio in it but I don’t pay for the service. I actually don’t know if it’s using its own radio or the connection on my phone. I’ve had the car for most of the year and this is the first update I’ve seen. It took about 10-12 minutes. As I have no patience, sitting in my driveway waiting for it to finish drove me nuts, but for the most part it was painless. It’s definitely something I don’t want to have to get used to.
All of them, soon enough. Light bulb companies realized a long time ago that selling quality products is a self-defeating game, you want either planned obsolescence, or sell a “service” through a permanent subscription model.
They’re responding to the “Light Bulb Companies” part, not the “selling quality products” part. That video very clearly (10-15 mins too long) shows that Light Bulb Companies had legitimate reasons for limiting light bulb hours.
While the Phoebus Cartel may have artificially limited the lifespan of lightbulbs, there was a legitimate reason to do so, and it wasn’t just planned obsolescence so you buy more.
So like… do you want to say anything more than “I’m right and this is wrong”? Because I’ve seen that video before and I’m still feeling the opposite way you are
We seriously need strict regulations to reign in this bullshit.
Subscription anything needs be illegal unless it’s an active service being provided.
Screens should be flat out banned in cars. Fuck your infotainment and sale features, I don’t care. If we agree that phones too dangerous to use while driving (and they are), then a having a fucking tablet glued to the dash is literally no different. Plus, we’re still in a global chip shortage, we should be conserving them for more important things.
Self driving features can fuck right off. It’s absolutely mind-boggling how these systems are allowed on public roads with zero regulatory oversight.
Most active safety features are bullshit workarounds for shitty design and engineering that create massive blindspots. They also create lazy, complacent drivers who become dependent on tech that subject to equipment and logic failures. Good visibility can’t just suddenly stop working.
Anything bigger than a sedan or station wagon should require a special license for industrial and ag use only. Fuck your compensation-mobiles, they’re literally killing us in more ways than one.
None of this will ever happen because we know who really owns our governments.
Can’t say I agree. The appearance of GPS was a game changer for me and a lot of people. I still remember the old days where every time I picked the car in an unfamiliar place was a gamble. I can’t even count how many gas I wasted going in circles looking for a reference. Found road works? I’m fucked again, I guess.
No, I don’t miss those days at all. Now, if you want to tell me infotainment screens need strict regulations, that’s another story. Nothing beyond android auto apps, radio and options that only work in a full stop should be allowed. But “voting” with your wallet works. When I bought my car I was indecisive between 2 of them. The fact one of them had most stuff in a infotainment that was below the driver FOV made my choice easy. The one I bought has most buttons as physical ones. Only the radio isn’t. The screen is small and I can use it without taking my eyes off the road (which I only use for google maps, spotify and taking calls).
It’s also our responaibility as buyers to know what we’re getting. I see a lot of people complaining about stuff in their car they should’ve known while they were still in the looking phase. If you can’t research the car you’re buying before you buy it then you deserve all the disappointment.
I love my Subaru. But the infotainment system is awful. It’s slow and unresponsive, it frequently takes a few minutes to warm up to even be usable, which means usually when you can use it you’re already moving. It’s absolutely impossible to do anything outside of the touch screen.
The car is great, but that computer is a piece of crap
My Subaru made me drop Android and buy an iPhone. I hate the phone, but the infotainment system works drastically better. Android Auto was hot garbage.
Just out of curiosity, what android phone did you have before switching? I haven’t hadany issues with Android Auto the few times I’ve used it in a rental car. My car is too old for it but it’s going to be a variable in my next vehicle purchase which admittedly is very far away.
Android auto in isolation is generally fine. I’ve owned an aftermarket head unit that offered android auto and it worked flawlessly with my pixel phone.
When I bought a Subaru crosstrek, android auto using the same phone was terrible. It constantly disconnects and has strange audio issues all the time. Apple carplay works fine with my partners phone.
There is something about Subaru and their implementation that is total shit for android auto specifically. I wouldn’t recommend them for a good android infotainment experience.
My mom has a ‘16 Subaru and the infotainment has been such a hassle. I had to constantly keep repairing her Bluetooth. It was so bad that my daughter, who has wanted a Subaru for years decided against one simply because of the infotainment.
She ended up getting a 2016 Nissan Rogue, but it did not have an infotainment system. It is a fairly simple system with Bluetooth connectivity for audio. I wish more companies would give us the ability to modify the systems, especially after they abandon them (my 2015 Toyota Tacoma’s last map update is from about 6 months before my truck was built.)
My ‘15 Mitzu (love her so much) also has a full shit infotainment system. It’s super slow, Bluetooth has a 1.5 second delay (try watching anything on your phone while waiting for someone with that delay!) and also constantly drops connection and re-pairs.
I’ve got a BT-to-3.5mm jack BT adapter that connects INSTANTLY, sounds fantastic, and has NO DELAY.
…the got dang car doesn’t have A 3.5MM JACK WHY THE FUCK
I cam confirm that the Subarus my inlaws have had over the last 5 years have the worst infotainment systems I have ever interacted with. Their current one keeps killing the battery. Not just draining, but actually damaging it. They have had a loaner from the dealer for the last 3 months.
Love how it drives, but the electronics are annoying to use, slow, and way too distracting.
Yeah these infotainment systems are trash. I think the Subaru one is made by Denso. Like, Denso makes spark plugs and shit, stay in your line Denso! Thank fuck for Carplay/Android Auto.
Sometimes you can just tell something sucks without even using it… All you need to know comes from looking at the fonts and button designs. What car is this?
Is your point that you’re more likely to experience security vulnerabilities when using FOSS? Cause past a certain point of development that’s not generally the case.
Perhaps they simply mean they don’t want it internet connected at all. If it needs updates, have it be a device, USB or OBD or something, that would be the only vector for updates/direct OS control. Sure, allow internet for some features maybe, but isolate updates and the anything serious from remote tampering.
I’m from an era where jailbreaking and installing whatever you’d like on a device was the wild west, and have seen nasty stuff accidentally sideloaded. Giving people the option to infect their cars with ransomware could get people killed, so not opening that can of worms isn’t the worst idea necessarily. That said, FOSS stuff is usually fine, but I highly doubt it would be a fully encompassed ecosystem that you’d be installing. It’ll have add-ons, other smaller projects. Tweaks. That’s where you’ll get into trouble.
Oh man, i’ve never been able to get over the: “i really want to play a game now that i have 30 minutes to spare and some energy left” ah fuck, 60gb update…fine i’m off to bed then.
Can’t imagine what i would do if a car update would come with the worst possible timing like having to take your partner to the hospital for an emergency.
My Charger’s Irratainment system decided to update during traffic in Dallas rush hour (I don’t live there) and it took my navigation with me until I could regoogle my phone enough to use that.
To ensure that the update process finishes without interruption due to weak battery - if that happens it can brick your car. Tbf you can also just connect the battery to a power source and keep the engine off. Depending on update and car updates that take a few hours are not unheard of
This is such extremely poor engineering that it throws me into a rage. There is nothing to prevent them from installing the update in the background progressively while driving and then just switching to the new version in one swift atomic operation (like changing the name of a directory) when it’s ready
We both know that this will never happen. For the same reason why you can get a 300k$ car, and have an infotainment system that runs at 3fps. They don’t have any incentive to make it run better
It’s a mix of piece coat optimization and a lot of creep in what used to be a pretty lightweight process throwing it into the ditch.
The things that run software in cars largely fall into one of two camps: MCUs and SOCs. Think Arduinos and Raspberry PIs. Background programming, with an active and inactive partition, is absolutely possible on a SOC. They’re even file based, so you can do all kinds of clever things. Cars tend to not have many SOCs, so it’s not a monumental task to pitch having them each coat a little bit more for extra storage/processing. The biggest hurdles here are automotive grade and the very long development cycles. These both mean that the hardware is 3+ years old when it launches.
MCUs tend to have monolithic software builds (think literally everything gets compiled into a single .exe). There are a million billion of these things in a typical vehicle from most automotive OEMs. It’s… very hard to make them all have more capacity because you would take that cost and multiply it by 40 or so to get all the MCUs on a vehicle ‘upgraded’ for extra capacity.
If this all sounds a little crazy, it is. From two angles. First: do we really need as much software control in cars as we do? Marketing departments seem to think so. Second: the reason why there are so many small compute units in a car is the slow migration from mechanically controlled components to electrically controlled on. Back in the 80s the majory of automatic transmissions shifted based on a very complex mechanical system (look up a transmission valve body if you’re curious). Moving that to electronic control meant adding a computer to control that functional. Now take this and multiply it and you’ll kind of see the wreck in motion. Most OEMs are moving toward more centralized compute (fewer, larger, and smarter control units), but new electrical architectures take a lot of time/effort so it’s slow going.
I’m pretty sure that what’s being updated here is just the software for the infotainment display, which is likely a pretty powerful SOC that has nothing to do with any components that are necessary for driving the car.
Most OEMs usually show an update screen on their radio, even if something unrelated is being updated.
If the update is taking a long time it could be a really big file on a SOC. It could also be a smaller file being written to… very slow internal memory because when the part was sourced 8 years ago no one considered including memory read/write speed in the sourcing documentation. I’m betting the second, unless this OEM didn’t include background programming on SOCs, which is kind of foolish given how much easier it is on a SOC than MCU.
I can’t speak for this particular OEM, but 12 volt lead acid batteries don’t have very deep power reserves. The OEM choosing to leave the battery on during programming is likely a method of ensuring there’s enough juice to install the update and start the car on the next attempt.
There’s two major things limiting them actually. Bad software developers and using the barest possible minimum on processors and RAM to run the systems.
This is so backwards from my ID.3. When I get an OTA update, we get a message and have to deliberately update it, but it wont start until we’re out of the car and it’s locked.
Ouch, I doubt anyone would he looking forward to babysitting their idling car for 2 hours, just to install a navigation update 😭
Older vehicles and standalone GPSes allowed people to just order a physical pre-loaded SD card, insert it into the appropriate slot, and that’s your maps sorted with no idling or babysitting.
While it’s nice that there’s no longer the excess physical electronic waste with the SD cards, I find it hard to see the cloud alternative as an improvement
Is there no option to download it on a PC and use a flash drive to install to the vehicle? Or are they saying install time is 1-2 hours because the hardware is that bad?
I have one car, it’s 20 years old and I’ve had it since 2009. Sometimes I look around and think, maybe it’s time to get one not covered in scratches with a dent in the back? But then I see posts like this and feel incredibly grateful this little banger has kept me on the road for so long.
You could always have your scratches and dent repaired, or learn to do it yourself as a fun hobby. (I’m not joking, by the way: I’ve done some body repair and painting on some of my cars, and it’s kinda fun!)
Depending on the country you might not be able to do that. In some countries you have strict emission guidelines where cars older than 5 years need to be certified that they output emission below a certain threshold. It’s good for the environment, but if you live in a place that has shit public transportation it can force you to get new cars and spend much more than required to have a car that suits your needs.
Nah, I’m jailbreaking my car if I get one that does this shit. I forced Windows to fuck off with their updates and I damn sure can tell my car manufacturer the same.
That completely depends on what’s updating, and I haven’t seen software updates as frequent occurrences. The frequency may be something I’m missing, of course.
Kinda true but I’m in love with my parents Dacia Lodgy of 2013. It’s cheap and does the job (moving me and from A to B) while maintaining very low fuel consumption.
I have a 2017 Nissan versa and it’s like a fleet trim or something. No power anything (locks or windows) no computer touch screen system, not even a chipped key! Manual transmission and gets almost 40mpg. What you want is out there, it’s just hard to find because the car manufacturers won’t make as much margin on them.
New cars have all sorts of privacy issues too. I think it was the Mozilla foundation that released a report recently that claimed every single modern electric car harvests as much data as they can about their users and sells it.
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