I do agree it’s nice that a car can get better over time and fixes for issues over updates but just like other tech this will bring problems with long term support and features being removed/ pay walled by greedy manufacturers.
I LOVE HAVING CAR DEPENDENCY. I LOVE PAYING FOR LESS EFFICIENT TRANSPORT AND ALL OF MY OWN MAINTENANCE AND FOR THE PRIVILEGE OF HAVING MY DATA SOLD. I SPEND EVERY MOMENT NOT DRIVING WISHING I COULD BE BEHIND THE WHEEL AND DOING NOTHING ELSE BUT FOCUSING ON DRIVING WHILE ON MY WAY TO [CONSUME] AND MAKE DATA FOR [BRAND]. PLEASE, NO PUBLIC TRANSIT, I LIKE MY FREEDOM THANKS.
Personally, as a non-car owning person, I love how I have to stick to the narrow patch of walkway next to roads where I get to inhale exhaust fumes whether I like it or not, have to stop and yield to oncoming traffic when looking to cross the road, and leave my life and personal safety in the hands of people I don’t know and pray they pay attention and don’t hit me.
I hate it as a driver. I would love to walk or bike more, but I’m far enough from anywhere I want to go that it doesn’t make any practical sense to. I strongly dislike driving everywhere, and I wish our pedestrian and bike infrastructure (and public transit) didn’t suck so bad. I wouldn’t mind using the bicycle gutter, if I had one, but I’d be very nervous to let my kids use it because I don’t trust the magic paint strip.
Suburbs really suck in this regard. I get a choice between a 15 minute bus that comes every 2-3 hours to get to my local train station or walk 1:30 minutes along the same road with zero footpath for the majority of the journey on a 70kmh road.
I drive a hybrid in rural areas, and I try to always flip the car into electric only mode when I see a cyclist coming up so they don’t have to inhale my tailpipe. I’m sure it isn’t much in the grand scheme, but I hope they at least breathe a little better.
I get the sentiment but have you ever driven a fun car on a beautiful night? Driving a topless Jeep through the twisty highway in the redwoods of Northern California or a Camaro through the wide open Nevada desert? High schoolers driving their bro dozer around town in circles, yeah, I get that.
This but motorcycles for me. Cars with the windows down are a limp substitute for hitting the bottom of a hill in a fall or spring morning on a motorbike.
I (maybe naively) believe a healthy society could find a way to build a robust public transport network and still accommodate the minority of enthusiasts who drive and work on cars for fun.
Engineers aren’t just dry husks of people, robotically creating solutions to meet needs. The drive to create cars, planes, and motorbikes, which have significant technical overlap with trains, buses, and mobility aids, is at least partially borne from the thrill of piloting machines that extend human capabilities.
Got a 2023 Outback in February. The processing power is nowhere near what it needs to run smoothly. Once the car is started it is best to just not touch any buttons for the first several seconds to let it catch up. It is like dropping back two phone generators and watching it struggle to keep up with a newer OS. The transmission must run off a processor two generations further back because the time difference between my big ape foot stomping on the loud pedal and anything meaningful happening is measured in countable seconds.
My Buick had the same delay with the transmission. It took a lot of getting used to, and was one reason I went with a high performance car afterwards. I’m super happy with her Kia K5 now.
The transmission must run off a processor two generations further back because the time difference between my big ape foot stomping on the loud pedal and anything meaningful happening is measured in countable seconds.
Does your Subaru have a CVT? It’s a belt drive transmission and when I had an (older) Subaru it was one of the first CVT units, and felt a bit laggy when you asked it to do anything with alacrity.
Yep, my first. I was expecting the lag of the CVT and can feel it engage. There is a noticeable lag between the pedal being moved to one spot and the CVT beginning to work. So it is GoFaster = (TransmissioncComputeTime + CVTEngage) when each is about one full second. Two seconds sounds and feels unsafe when coming from a 2004 WRX.
They are notoriously bad. And they don’t get fixed. Got my Subaru and
The radio defaults to SiriusXM every time I turn on the car, even though I do not pay for it and do not want to.
Android Auto and Apple Car Play would cut out regularly
Eventually the entire system would just randomly crash and reboot frequently throughout a trip.
Found out there was a TSB out on the radio for frequent issues, and had to get it warrantied.
Even with the new radio, I have occasional issues with Apple Car Play freezing
I can’t have both an android and iPhone connected at the same time, because I won’t be able to use Android Auto, I’m forced into Car Play
And on the new cars Subaru made the screen narrow and tall. This effectively reduced the amount of screen space for Android Auto/car play in comparison with prior years.
Add to that the entire display is now needed for HVAC, heated seats, etc and do you really want to depend on a glitchy computer that frequently crashes?
I can’t have both an android and iPhone connected at the same time, because I won’t be able to use Android Auto, I’m forced into Car Play
Just got a new work truck, a Ford, with android auto and car play. This morning was the first time I plugged an iPhone and android in at the same time. I had plugged in the android first and a quick look I wasn’t able to switch to the iPhone without unplugging the android. I never plugged the android back in so idk if it prefers one over the other or just whatever is plugged in first. Could that be the same issue?
Others have already responded to you with many of the same complaints I was going to bring up so I’ll just highlight a few things:
First off, I have a 2019 Subaru Impreza so not the latest generation
There used to be this issue where, upon turning the car on, you couldn’t interact with the infotainment system for a good 10 seconds which includes volume adjustments. Let’s say you had the volume set to 20 (max 35) when you last drove, well it’s going to be blaring as soon as you start up the car again, but you won’t be able to do anything about it for a good 10 seconds. Luckily this issue has gotten better (I believe with a firmware update from the dealership after I complained), but it’s still not fixed completely.
Recently I took my car in for work and they needed to keep it overnight, so they let me borrow a brand new 2024 Outback Touring. This was great cause I got to test a brand new car “for free,” and what I learned is that they now put all HVAC stuff (seat warming, climate control, etc.) on this screen that has poor touch sensitivity. It’s obnoxious. Also the system itself is only marginally better than my 5 year old car, which is to say it’s still incredibly clunky and slow. They’ve made improvements, no doubt, but it’s built from the same trash.
I’m still driving a 2016 Mazda, so sorry if this is a dumb question, but with these new cars are the infotainment systems integral with the car’s functioning?
I’ve always thought of the head units as replaceable but seems like they are more integrated nowadays. Especially with EVs
I’d be curious about what kinds of modifications people have been able to do with these. I imagine most people would want to avoid bricking their $50k car by pulling apart their dashboard and fucking with the internals, but someone somewhere has had to have been unhappy enough with the hardware/software on these things to make an attempt at switching it out, even if in part.
Owning something that expensive and not being able to modify it to the way I like (and cutting out the manufacturer from data harvesting/control over the system) is a personal kind of hell.
Ugh I hate rearview cameras. They’re nice for people who can’t turn due to limited mobility but I prefer to be facing the direction I’m going and do the “turn and put hand on the other head rest” move. It would be fine, but some car manufacturers have decided rear sightlines don’t matter at all now “because you have the camera” so they take that option from me and make reversing more dangerous.
I’ve got a 2013 Mazda 3 and it was very easy to replace the radio, but my understanding is that way more stuff goes through it in modern cars, especially if they have touchscreen controls for some things.
Thank god I will never be able to justify paying more than 8k on any car I will ever own in my life, you rich bitches can keep your fancy 50k 30 year morgage at 18% interest ass smart cars that need 2k in maintenance the second it leaves the dealers lot. I hate being dinged to death to wear a seatbelt and consider it harassment and an invasion of my agency, let alone this BS lol
But… you should really wear a seatbelt. Actually, haven’t cars been giving users seatbelt alarms for like… over 30 years now? It’s a strange hill to die on, friend.
Oh absolutely I buckle up pretty much every time. But if I want to take the car 2 minutes down the road and I deem it an acceptable level of risk to not bother with the belt, I shouldn’t be harassed to do so by my own machine. You boss around your tools, not the other way around. A little light on the dash should be enough, its not like I don’t know what im doing. Also our countries regulations on that may be different most cars from the early to mid 2000s here don’t ding you to death. If it indangers other peoples health and safety sure but me not wearing a seatbelt isn’t hurting anyone but potentially myself, if I end up crashing through the windshield and splattering on the asphalt thats the consequences of my own very stupid) decicion.
Oh man, my wife bought a 2023 Rogue, and the seatbelt notification goes off for all three back seats, even if no one is back there! And you can’t turn it off! The dealership recommended just buckling all the back seats by default. It is, by a pretty wide margin, the most irritating thing about that machine. I understand the frustration. I guess I’m more diligent about the front seat buckles, because I’ve never even seen the front seat buckle light.
To be clear - they’ve been doing this for years, but you used to have to take your car into a dealership for THEM to apply a patch, this is actually MUCH EASIER.
Is your point that you’re more likely to experience security vulnerabilities when using FOSS? Cause past a certain point of development that’s not generally the case.
Perhaps they simply mean they don’t want it internet connected at all. If it needs updates, have it be a device, USB or OBD or something, that would be the only vector for updates/direct OS control. Sure, allow internet for some features maybe, but isolate updates and the anything serious from remote tampering.
I’m from an era where jailbreaking and installing whatever you’d like on a device was the wild west, and have seen nasty stuff accidentally sideloaded. Giving people the option to infect their cars with ransomware could get people killed, so not opening that can of worms isn’t the worst idea necessarily. That said, FOSS stuff is usually fine, but I highly doubt it would be a fully encompassed ecosystem that you’d be installing. It’ll have add-ons, other smaller projects. Tweaks. That’s where you’ll get into trouble.
To ensure that the update process finishes without interruption due to weak battery - if that happens it can brick your car. Tbf you can also just connect the battery to a power source and keep the engine off. Depending on update and car updates that take a few hours are not unheard of
This is such extremely poor engineering that it throws me into a rage. There is nothing to prevent them from installing the update in the background progressively while driving and then just switching to the new version in one swift atomic operation (like changing the name of a directory) when it’s ready
We both know that this will never happen. For the same reason why you can get a 300k$ car, and have an infotainment system that runs at 3fps. They don’t have any incentive to make it run better
It’s a mix of piece coat optimization and a lot of creep in what used to be a pretty lightweight process throwing it into the ditch.
The things that run software in cars largely fall into one of two camps: MCUs and SOCs. Think Arduinos and Raspberry PIs. Background programming, with an active and inactive partition, is absolutely possible on a SOC. They’re even file based, so you can do all kinds of clever things. Cars tend to not have many SOCs, so it’s not a monumental task to pitch having them each coat a little bit more for extra storage/processing. The biggest hurdles here are automotive grade and the very long development cycles. These both mean that the hardware is 3+ years old when it launches.
MCUs tend to have monolithic software builds (think literally everything gets compiled into a single .exe). There are a million billion of these things in a typical vehicle from most automotive OEMs. It’s… very hard to make them all have more capacity because you would take that cost and multiply it by 40 or so to get all the MCUs on a vehicle ‘upgraded’ for extra capacity.
If this all sounds a little crazy, it is. From two angles. First: do we really need as much software control in cars as we do? Marketing departments seem to think so. Second: the reason why there are so many small compute units in a car is the slow migration from mechanically controlled components to electrically controlled on. Back in the 80s the majory of automatic transmissions shifted based on a very complex mechanical system (look up a transmission valve body if you’re curious). Moving that to electronic control meant adding a computer to control that functional. Now take this and multiply it and you’ll kind of see the wreck in motion. Most OEMs are moving toward more centralized compute (fewer, larger, and smarter control units), but new electrical architectures take a lot of time/effort so it’s slow going.
I’m pretty sure that what’s being updated here is just the software for the infotainment display, which is likely a pretty powerful SOC that has nothing to do with any components that are necessary for driving the car.
Most OEMs usually show an update screen on their radio, even if something unrelated is being updated.
If the update is taking a long time it could be a really big file on a SOC. It could also be a smaller file being written to… very slow internal memory because when the part was sourced 8 years ago no one considered including memory read/write speed in the sourcing documentation. I’m betting the second, unless this OEM didn’t include background programming on SOCs, which is kind of foolish given how much easier it is on a SOC than MCU.
I can’t speak for this particular OEM, but 12 volt lead acid batteries don’t have very deep power reserves. The OEM choosing to leave the battery on during programming is likely a method of ensuring there’s enough juice to install the update and start the car on the next attempt.
There’s two major things limiting them actually. Bad software developers and using the barest possible minimum on processors and RAM to run the systems.
Sometimes you can just tell something sucks without even using it… All you need to know comes from looking at the fonts and button designs. What car is this?
I’m kind of surprised that car technology is so awful. How the fuck am I paying $35k for a car and they’re still like “lets run the UI off a potato via the least responsive touch screen possible”? At some point I’d rather they just gave up on providing a UX themselves and just ran everything through Android Auto.
I don’t mind having a UI for things like navigation or android auto. What gets me is why do things like climate control need to be buried in a UI? If my windscreen starts to steam up mid-jourmey, the last thing I need is to take my attention off the road to change the climate settings in the UI where dials and buttons will do the job much faster without needing to take my attention off the road.
Yes! I hate having everything in the UI. I’d much prefer a physical control set for A/C and even basic volume control at least.
You can’t sense a flat touch screen, but we are really good at sensing knobs and switches. It’s much safer for the driver to feel for a control rather than look at it.
My 09 VW CC has knobs for bass, treble, and mid, in addition to volume. Seat heaters, AC, everything is tactile and I can operate anything without looking.
I know it’s manufacturers wanting to save money, but it’s so annoying that we’re going backwards. Touchscreen is a form of input. Just because it’s higher tech doesn’t mean it should replace tactile inputs in all applications ffs.
If my windscreen starts to steam up mid-jourmey, the last thing I need is to take my attention off the road to change the climate settings in the UI where dials and buttons will do the job much faster without needing to take my attention off the road.
This is why ill never get rid of my 2009 Tacoma. Three knob AC controls are the pinnacle of UI engineering. One knob for fan speed, one for temp and the third for vent/airflow selection. The backlight on one of my knobs has burned out at this point, but i dont need it…Can adjust the AC without taking my eyes off the road.
When it was ubiquitous, this meant i could do this in any car. Borrowed my inlaws FORD F-150 once, had to pull over to figure out how to turn off the goddam heat. It had BOTH a touchscreen and series of dash buttons but there were so many it was hard to figure out what did each thing while driving. I also had to update their dang infotainment, it wouldnt work on some random USB device, i had to go get a USB-A 3.0 device to get it to work at all and even then it was idling in my driveway for an hour and a half. Even tried just doing it via WiFi…nope
Just FYI, it might be pretty easy to replace the back lights. You can even get LED ones. Word of warning though, if the bulbs are built such that the polarity can be reversed, they’ll only work in one orientation. This is due to the nature of how LEDs work. I had to redo mine because I didn’t win all 3 coin flips when I installed them
Yeah it’s not too bad. Just the dash kit is fairly old and held together by those plastic clip. I always break those things. It’s a juice isn’t worth the squeeze honestly. I actually upgraded my radio a while back to a wireless CarPlay/android auto and mean to ask them to swap em. But forgot.
Yeah, my 2017 KIA has a touch screen for controlling navigation, radio, android auto etc. but climate control is controlled with buttons and dials like you described. It’s modern enough to the point it feels safer than an older vehicle might, but I don’t think I want a vehicle more modern than this.
the issue stems from the requirements of automotive parts to be based around longevity vs precision. I would like to believe they are stunting performance parts for more robust and lasting hardware but we all know that isn’t true and any money that should be spent on automotive grade electronics is likely lining someones stock portfolio
Apple Iphone? last about 2 years if its used EVERYDAY , usually. Car Touch Screen needs to live for 5-10years so you don’t drive the car through the dealership windows killing the salesman that tricked you. they hope.
People keep trying to buy my 2002 Tacoma, I get notes on my windshield constantly. Often offers for like 80% of what I originally paid for it. It’s insane for a 20 year old car with 300k miles on it.
Oh man, i’ve never been able to get over the: “i really want to play a game now that i have 30 minutes to spare and some energy left” ah fuck, 60gb update…fine i’m off to bed then.
Can’t imagine what i would do if a car update would come with the worst possible timing like having to take your partner to the hospital for an emergency.
My Charger’s Irratainment system decided to update during traffic in Dallas rush hour (I don’t live there) and it took my navigation with me until I could regoogle my phone enough to use that.
Yup. Unfortunately, since most people seem to prefer the dystopian futuretech, all auto manufacturers are going to employ it. Just like with cell phones. The last phone I know of with 16:9 aspect ratio and no blighted hole punch or notch was in 2018. There’s a market full of us luddites who prefer the old ways, but we’re invisible to manufacturers because it’s more profitable to make something that more people want to buy, and we’re forced to buy that garbage as well anyway.
There are some positives and negatives to the desire for old form factors. Secondhand phones from 2018 cost much less than new ones but lack some of the new features like… I can’t think of any.
All contactless payments use it. All your cards have it. All phones that you. Can pay from (which I don’t know any new brand that doesn’t offer this feature) uses it.
I guess that covid was the resurgence, with all the banks and businesses setting up nfc cards and payment machines for zero touch payments.
Don’t worry. You know those car nuts who put 20 spoilers on their cars and mod the engine etc… There will be a point where most of them do it with the futuretech cars and it will be in their way, which means they will circumvent it and ordinary people will be able to hire them to do it to their cars too. It was the same wis “chip tuning”.
Yeah, it goes further than just designing the hardware to only last a few years, all of these electronics ensure that the car is fucked as soon as the necessary online services go down. Meanwhile a well-maintained '93 Geo Metro, driven in the south where they don’t salt the roads every year, can last decades.
I dont know the details, but Ive heard of companies that do this, or kits that can be used for it, existing, though I can only imagine that changing a car that one’s business has not manufactured and was never designed for such a conversion must take a lot of manual work, which would be expensive before even considering things like the cost of batteries.
Swapping an engine is relatively easy if you know what you’re doing… If these kits can connect the electric motor to the existing drive train it wouldn’t be too bad. Messing around with batteries big enough for an electric vehicle can be really dangerous though.
Power train conversion is reasonably simple. Just throw combustion engine and transmission box away, make brackets for electric motors and attach them directly to the wheels (with axles if necessary). Conversion of controls is (I assume) is also somewhat simple since existing brake system and power steering is quite straightforward to run with electric motors since you just need something which can run a belt drive and gas pedal is most likely already electric. For all the electronics you have plenty of space in where the engine used to be.
But. And there’s a pretty big but. Batteries are pretty big and pretty heavy. On any given combustion engine car there’s just no room for them (at least if you’re after a conversion with similar range/power than a readily built electric car). And even if you cut the floor panel off and modify it to accomodate battery pack (or whatever the route you choose might be) it’ll heavily affect weight distribution, frame stability and many other things, suspension included. Model S battery is apparently 540kg, so if you’ll do a conversion to your corolla you might save around 150kg of weight by removing old engine+transmission but you’d still have additional 300kg of mass to deal with.
For a van which is designed to haul heavy loads from the start it might be pretty simple to just raise floor of the cargo space a bit but for a common sedan that’s a whole another thing.
I looked into this for my car. The conversion has a 50 mile range, essentially replaces the engine with an electric motor, locks the car in 3rd gear, and replaces the fuel tank with batteries.
It cost about £3500, which was a bit much for me considering the car only cost £3k, and I could just sell my car to buy a 100mile+ leaf for the same outlay.
In our local craigslist for cars website someone has been selling a -84(or so) Nissan Sunny for ages with electric conversion. The seller did just that, took combustion engine out, attached a electric motor into transmission and the result is that you have 80’s car, with manual transmission and batteries so small that once you’re out of the driveway you’ve depleted 10% of the batteries (give or take, but that’s pretty much what you’ll get). And it had something like 15kW minus losses of the drive train.
But the parts are so expensive (at least for now) that listed price is almost 10k€. I can understand that seller wants their money back and it isn’t the most serious conversion out there, but the reality is that you’ll get a shitty 80’s car with a even shittier EV conversion (since the frame has it’s limits and high quality components are expensive) while you can sell a similar car with a combustion engine for 350€ on a good day and a tank full.
I don’t even use BT in mine and don’t use the music system either. I stick to my phone. I just hope by the time I need to switch cars, I’ll be able to jailbreak it without bricking.
Battery tech will need to improve greatly and be minimalized. EV batteries are currently massive, heavy, and generally engineered as long, wide, flat modules to be installed beneath the floor so they keep the center of gravity low and the vehicle balanced. That’s not really possible in an ICE vehicle with all the frame molding around existing exhaust and drivetrain components, and you most likely can’t just have some sort of modular battery and motor unit that you just drop into the engine bay, as that would put a ton (literally) of additional weight on one end and mess with the balance.
The draintrain components may need to be replaced or the motor outputs modulated to prevent the torque from ripping it apart.
Power steering and brakes will need to converted to electric assist. AC and heat would need to converted to electric.
Older cars (early 00’s and older) with cable throttles will need to be retrofitted with drive-by-wire, or use some sort of adapter module that connects the cable and converts it to digital inputs. Same with brakes.
All of the electronics (lights, wipers, windows, locks, radio, etc.) will need to be rewired since there’s no longer an alternator.
Probably will need upgraded suspension and brakes to handle the extra weight.
There’s probably a lot more I’m not thinking about or not even aware of. Unfortunately, I don’t think it’s going to happen outside of rich enthusiast circles, which is terribly sad, because I completely agree with you. Basically everything made after around 2010 is total dogshit.
I have a Gen ?? Outback. It’s a nice 2002 and I just replaced the stock stereo with a new Bluetooth one so it’s dope. Running this thing until it dies.
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