Same. The homeless population has unfortunately made libraries where I live pretty dangerous places and I can only imagine how much worse that would be if they were open all night. My city doesn’t seem to care at all about people shooting up and ruining public spaces.
We should absolutely have safe housing for homeless people with UBI and transitional programs. We should also offer mental health and substance abuse treatment – and in extreme cases humane involuntary treatment for people that are a danger to themselves and others.
And none of this should take place in shared, public spaces for the safety and dignity of everyone involved. This is a failure of society and needs to be treated as such. Placing the burden on individuals isn’t the solution. Expecting public spaces designed for other uses to pick the slack of a broken societal safety net is insane.
You can’t have humane involuntary treatment. In cases where somebody is threatening someone else, I would say involuntary treatment is called for. But we shouldn’t decide when its okay to imprison people for exercising their bodily autonomy.
Yeah, nothing against that idea in theory, but in practice, places like that end up full of urine-soaked drug addicts that are high on meth, making it an extremely unattractive place to hang out and socialize.
Denver’s Union station downtown is a perfect example. It’s a “public private” space that tries to stay open late on weekends to cater to the crowd but ends up being a hellhole.
places like that end up full of urine-soaked drug addicts that are high on meth,
You’re putting all homeless into a box. Not all are homeless because they are addicts. Some are legitimately forgotten by the system and for different reasons lost job/domestic abuse/no fam/disability/health issue/financial issues. And even at that : addiction is also a symptom of a shit society. Not the same issue as what causes other homeless people but there can be more than one problem in a poorly designed system that comes up with the same result of being homeless.
Society built on capitalistic ideals for more than just survival as a goal has an extremely narrow scope for who it is interested in serving.
With the exception of your first sentence (me putting homeless people in a box, which I’m not sure if you’re making a pun or not), all of other the things you said are correct and I agree with. The things you said and the things I said are not mutually exclusive.
In other words, not all homeless are the same, not all are drug addicts, and society should do better at preventing homelessness, and you might still have a late-night library filled with urine-soaked drug addicts.
You’re putting all homeless into a box. Not all are homeless because they are addicts.
Are we not allowed to make generalizations at all? I promise you if you open a homeless center in any major city you will find out very quick that psycho behavior comes with homeless people at scale. It’s a guarantee that you will have meth addicts ruin whatever infrastructure you provide them. It doesn’t matter that there are some good homeless people when you are almost guaranteed to face the bad ones.
Crazy idea : let’s use churches to accommodate homeless people since you can find them fucking everywhere, surely they’re not used after 8pm, and that’s basically the point of them in the first place, no?
Then they should provide access to toilets. Where are they going when they want to take a piss? Also isn’t helping the poor in anyway they can a charitable act revered by their religion?
Every major religion reveres helping the needy, for example in Islam, zakat, giving money for charity (if you have enough wealth to afford it) is a requirement.
I get the idea and I think it’s wonderful but have you ever been to a homeless shelter? They need staff to break up fights, protect women, clean up the mess made by drug users and alcoholics, and all sorts of other difficult things your average old lady pew duster isn’t capable of dealing with.
Most churches can’t keep the lights on. For every LDS or RCC there are a thousand places on the verge of bankruptcy. Every atheist I know makes a big deal about the big players but not one has shown me the raw the numbers that proves that if they paid corporate tax rates it would be mean more than a few more cruise missiles used to blow up weddings in Pakistan.
Government can’t do that job either. We already have homeless shelters. I don’t know why people talk like this is a new idea. We have homeless shelters in our society. They’re government funded in some cases, or church-funded in other cases.
We still have homeless people. We do provide free shelter and food to people. And we still have people sleeping on the street.
We’ve been doing extended openings 0700-2200 for several years in Oslo. As do libraries all over Norway. You need to use your library-card or app to open the door, so there’s some control (data lives for 7 days). We have very little problems - maybe there’s some homeless there but they are as welcome as anyone else. We do have security guard, or one that strays between branches. And yes we do have homeless people in Oslo.
Go Norway! I whish we had a library law here in Germany like you do - our places are underfunded and understaffed… a lot of my colleagues are very passionate about their jobs, we could do so much more with our local libraries.
A lot of Norwegian libraries are underfunded as well.
In Oslo public library (Deichman) we’ve been given more money the last 10 years than previously. And we have shown what that money can do.
During Covid shutdown the Library was what kept open except for two weeks - that really showed what kind of back-bone we were for Oslo.
It was very tough on our frontline workers as we were swamped with students ignoring any precautions. Working in libraries are still low paying compared to the education
It has a Café, a movie room, a band room, dj equipment, 3d printers, sewing machine corner, children playground and so much more…the most amazing library I have ever seen
Winter is hitting my little town in Sweden and I have to say that your suggestion is looking increasingly appealing. It’s not the cold. It’s not the rain we get now in place of snow thanks to global warming. It’s not even the darkness. It’s the gloomy all-encompassing grey.
It’s like all life and joy leaves the world until spring hits in May.
And the most popular one: the podcast studio. I’d like to point out that the other 20-ish libraries we have besides of Bjørvika are amazing too! You should see the one we open in Holmlia dec 1st. It’s even got a separate youth-library next to the normal one.
Not sure where you live, but I have actually been to a fair few libraries like this in the US. Usually if you want a really cool library, you’ll have to go to the main one in the state. If not that, the highest reviewed one. Of course, it all depends where you are, as different regions seem to care about having nice libraries at different amounts.
Well, first off, “free” is not a requirement for a 3rd place, but even if we accept that the best third places are free, that doesn’t make ones where money is involved bad by default.
The difference is between paying admission or membership dues like gyms usually require vs a public space where there’s an expectation you will buy something but it’s not a requirement for entry, and it’s not the only thing to do there.
Stores don’t work because the purpose of being there is to buy things, so there’s nothing else to do, and no other acceptable behavior beyond maybe some chit chat.
But at a cafe, the seating area is designed for you to just chill and do other things besides ponder what you’re going to buy next. The seating areas are open and there’s an expectation a purchase is made, but you can order nothing while a person with you orders something, or you can order something small and cheap, and get the same level of access as anyone. That’s a very low barrier of entry for a place that is purpose made for social activity.
Same is true of bars. You need to buy something, sure, but the place is designed for social activity, not just reading the menu.
I feel like this video (link below) does a good job of explaining why a lot of current third places aren’t quite meeting the need, or just don’t really fit the definition of third places.
I can think of a few places that meet most of the criteria near me, but there’s very few. The closest ones are probably the gaming shops, where you can show up and just hang out playing games with friends for free - but those are kind of geared towards specific activities, so you can’t always show up and just hang out with others whenever, as there are usually only regulars on certain days of the week, and often they are involved only in playing a game, not casual conversation.
Restaurants, bars are part of number first one. Coffee shops to me close early. Never seen one open at 10pm+
The library having games and such would be nice. They likely would run into the issue that thoae unfortunate would turn up and try to stay all night every time to get out of the cold/rain/heat.
Bars usually manage to bounce them without issue due to them not being paying customers. Getting bounced by a librarian does sound kind of cool though.
Cafes near me don’t open late a lot of the time. They close at about 5pm. So if you want some place to hang out after work? You have no choice other than a bar.
In the UK they defunded youth centres. Whatever shady shit we used to get up to at those, it was in a safe-ish place which at least one responsible person not far away in the worst case. Our behaviour/activities outside of those places once they were gone, as bored youths in a town of middle age to old people, was much worse.
Just throwing it out there: most libraries do have one late night day a week, there are probably a million people on earth right at this moment that would love to play a tabletop game with you or take a zoom class, every single area has clubs/associations/charities that would love some new faces.
Don’t expect the universe to give you companionship. You need to do it yourself
I’m hoping to eventually open something like a board game cafe to help address this for my hometown. Far from a perfect solution, but I would like to get as close to a “third place” community-oriented vibe as possible without going totally broke, at least.
It’s actually pretty easy to book libraries for after hours events. There’s a small cost associated because it requires staff to work outside normal hours.
I can’t even afford to rent a room during normal working hours though. Plus, I’m pretty sure my local library doesn’t offer evening bookings.
Asterisk: I can technically afford it, but I’m not paying like $160/mo to host a weekly club at the library. That defeats the whole point of a third space.
Paying for something doesn’t defeat the point of a third place. Enterprising and profit do. People covering just the cost of materials required for their activity is not that bad a thing.
I would rather more basic activities be covered by taxes too though.
You should check out some board game/card game shops around where you live.
Also, Cards Against Humanity is funny if you play it with your friends once every couple of months, I wouldn’t want to play it regularly, it gets old really fast.
Public libraries hold community events all the time, though…? At least the ones near me have conference rooms and such that can be booked. One reason why drag time story hour has been under attack lately. One of the many avenues to further ostracize us
Yup, even though I’m pretty new to D&D I’m hosting a game with a few people from the us (I’m from Europe), nearly every weekend I’m chuckling because of the things they come up with, some of the best fun from the entire week, even though it’s literally 1 am for me at that time
Yes I get a little bit sleep deprived, but I fix it by oversleeping till 10 AM
Life sucks but this is some of the few things keeping me here
I refuse to play D&D online. It is my “real people time”, an irony considering we’re all playing imaginary characters.
About five years ago I started hosting D&D 9pm (21:00) Friday evenings. There was a restaurant in town that was open late, largely serving takeout orders. So we requested a regular table in the back corner and they offered us a free plate of nachos every Friday. We usually played for three or four hours, and a few people ordered drinks or finger food – enough for the restaurant to break even on the nachos at a minimum. It was our “bar replacement” activity. I immediately had buy in from the players, and had to turn people away.
I moved a few years later, and my new house had a large-group friendly basement suitable for D&D. In my new city, I posted looking for players for the same time slot: 9pm Fridays. I was oversubscribed within a few hours. We had a few pauses during COVID, but are still playing at the same timeslot.
I still use the “in person only” rule at my table. During COVID, a bunch we’re proposing we play online. I don’t want to play online. I can do that with innumerable games that already fill that niche. I want pencil and paper and friends.
I read something about the Carnegie libraries in Pittsburgh basically doing this way back when. Apparently it was popular for people to get off work, go home, clean up, eat, then head out to the library. There was stuff there for kids like story tellers, tutors, art workshops, and more. For adults, quiet places for people who just wanted to read, places for study, areas for people to discuss various subjects, classes on various skills (painting, pottery, carpentry, etc) and the ground floor main area had a general social space. They served coffee, food trucks set up outside, and some inside. It was a popular place for people who didn’t want to go to the bar.
A combination of factors. Lower funding, suburbanization, growing means for home entertainment, growing wages sending people to more expensive options, etc.
One thing that happened is society forgot they can go do these things at libraries today.
Everything he listed is on the calendar of a great number of city libraries, if you check their websites! (Source: I built and maintained the websites for several libraries)
That’s called a community centre and used to be pretty common. Growing up we had multiple that were run by the local Catholic organizations, and I think there were also some that were run by the youth branch of the various political parties.
But a key component of such a place being success is having a certain kind of open culture. There’s countries where if you throw 10 strangers in a room and return an hour later, you’ll find 10 strangers on their phone, having not uttered a single word to each other.
People also have a tendency to divide into subgroups and isolate from each other. It’s a step in the right direction and better than no community at all. But it can breed resentment and even violence. That’s a common problem of community centres here.
If we constantly tell people that their primary defining characteristic is their race, or their sexuality, or their nationality, and we tell them that those people are the only ones who can truly get them, then it’s no surprise this results in a culture of isolating into little demographic groups.
Providing houses for the homeless? This smells like socialism and this America! The only people who get socialism are the rich and corporations. Everyone else can get fucked. /s
Many libraries in Denmark do stay open to 9pm. They even have tables and invite people to hang out there. Although I må not sure if you’re allowed to drink or eat there they do want you to just hang out. They have boardgames that you can borrow or play there and they even have boardgames nights where you can play against other guests. Some libraries even have gaming computers and playstation 5 with sofas and all. It’s pretty cool! Some of them also let you borrow things like baking forms, instruments, and tools!
I’ve worked in a public library and we were fine with food as long the patrons cleaned up after themselves and it wasn’t something like a full pizza. We got salty when folks just left trash on the tables.
NL here. One of the libraries in my city has a café on the ground floor, as well as space for more noisy activity or higher traffic volume, like music practices or a polling station. While for calm you do need to go up the stairs, the function of the third place does exist in there.
Such a construction, as far as I can tell, is pretty uncommon among libraries in the country though, the cultural sector has been criminally underfunded and disrespected for quite a while. This was a happenstance thing where several local cultural organisations teamed up to make this happen.
Add comment