cyborganism,

Living the casette futurism dream.

hackris,

You put paper filing and cash society on the “bad” list. It’s like it’s wrong for people without an internet connection or privacy conscious people to file stuff. “Pls use our brand-spanking new web UI that loads a shit ton of Javascript and steals your data on top of it!” Oh and cash society. No, why would anyone want to pay in a privacy-conscious way. Naw man, pay with a card…

HelloHotel, (edited )
@HelloHotel@lemmy.world avatar

With a way less harsh tone, I agree with your first point. Credit cards magical for the user but are full of deamons that they cant see just by using it. I’d prefer a cash only society to one where a private company controlls all access to money. Hybrid is alright but makes the situation maluable (in my country, because of the card, some compamies will make it hard or refuse to take legal tender).

“Pls use our brand-spanking new web UI that loads a shit ton of Javascript and steals your data on top of it!”

You derailed your point, biggest thing you can do right now is use ublock or noscript. Pull as much money as you need in cash and live off of it instead of using your card.

Aux,

Oh, another fan of living in a stone age.

velvetThunder,

It’s a downgrade if you can’t choose the stone age way. And with things like physical cash that downgrade is pretty bad. I don’t want a record of the 15€ my friend gave me for stealing the bathroom key last time we were at McDonald’s.

Aux,

Cash is traceable for decades now. Don’t worry, everyone knows what you’re doing.

neutron,

It’s not about having the option, I love having alternatives. It’s about 90s ways being the only choice when they could have better options. E.g. You need to send a form. It’s already a pdf file, send it by email, right? No, it has to be physical mail… or fax if they have a number. Oh, and you have to stamp on it. No pdf. Multiply that by time constraints and local bureaucracy mixed in.

pascal,

That’s what I’m saying for a long time after being in Japan a couple of times.

30 years ago, Japan was 20 years in the future, and they liked it so much, they never changed since.

woodgen,

Germany is the same but without the bullet trains and the robots wiping your ass.

t8r,

Well, also plus random homeless guy yelling at you about Vladimir Lenin, the roads looking like Romania ca. 1983 and a cadre of stern government employees showing up out of nowhere to shout “NEIN!!” and disappear. Very futuristic in a sort of Metro 2033 way.

thegreenguy,
@thegreenguy@sopuli.xyz avatar

As a Romanian, that would be overestimating our ability to maintain roads.

anarchy79,

Roads? Where we’re going we won’t NEED roads!

It’s Romania, we’re going to Romania.

joshi,

we have plenty of bullet trains - 367 last I checked, plus bullet trains from other countries - they’re just chronically late because of car-focused policies over the last decades causing the infrastructure to basically rot away.

still no ass-wiping robots though, maybe one day…

woodgen,

yeah we have a bunch of ICEs, but no transrapid for us. japan has a bunch of maglev trains.

PersnickityPenguin,

Japan has one maglev line under construction with a completion date set for 2045.

s_s,
@s_s@lemmy.one avatar

Yeah, when I think of Germany, I think of papers.

PersnickityPenguin,

Germany doesn’t have bidets? France does.

CurlyMoustache,
@CurlyMoustache@lemmy.world avatar

Bidet as it may

fosforus,

Plus the highest debt/GDP ratio in the world by far.

edit Oh wait, Venezuela topped them. Well done, socialism!

dangblingus,

Venezuela hasn’t been socialist for a while. I don’t see their workers owning the means of production.

DreBeast,

Venezuela and Japan have the highest, but you forgot to mention the United States is 12th -“While the U.S. boasts the highest GDP in the world, it nonetheless spends more than it earns. Major contributors to the national debt include the world’s largest military budget, tax cuts (which reduce government income and rarely result in a corresponding increase in economic growth), COVID-19 relief efforts, and mandatory-but-underfunded programs such as Medicare.”

Brunei and Afghanistan have the lowest. You need a better metric to make your pro neo liberal take💀

Source - worldpopulationreview.com/…/debt-to-gdp-ratio-by-…

Wisest_wizard,

Well… debt/GDP ratio and its effects depends on how well are you able to service the debt and how much is the confidence on GSecs… P.S. Japan is considered one of the safest when it comes to GSecs

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Everyone who is saying there is nothing wrong with cash is right. However, there is one major drawback to cash which is no longer a big problem in societies which are mostly cashless. Namely, if your wallet gets stolen and you have $300 in it, you’ve lost that $300 forever. If your wallet gets stolen and they get your cards, you can just cancel them and aren’t even charged for fraudulent purchases.

I realize that means less privacy, but I can’t afford to lose that kind of money just walking to the supermarket to buy groceries.

herrwoland,
@herrwoland@lemmy.world avatar

They solved that problem by having no thieves lol

potustheplant,

I was just in Japan and how safe it was blew my mind.

AnagrammadiCodeina,

This sentence makes me laugh. Where are you from?

shasta,

Probably Detroit

potustheplant,

Argentina, unfortunately.

tpihkal,

You also won’t have that money to spend if the power goes out.

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Manual credit card machines have existed long before electronic ones.

tpihkal,

That’s just absurd. Who the hell has one anymore? Not to mention they require the card to be embossed and not all are anymore.

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

You can literally write down the number on a piece of paper and a price and let the bank know or enter it manually when the power goes back on. This simply isn’t a problem unless society collapses and if that happens, cash will be worthless too.

tpihkal,

I’ve worked in multiple retail stores and not a single one of them would do that. If the power went out, they lock the door. So that absolutely doesn’t work in the short term.

Long term? Idk, how long can you hold out w/o spending money?

Aux,

If the power goes out on a global scale, you won’t be able to spend cash either.

escaped_cruzader,

Wallet in a cashless society? Are you stuck in the early 2000’s?

Now, cashless means Phones+NFC, which means when your wallet, a.k.a your phone, gets stolen you get taken somewhere until you allow access to your phone and banking apps where there should be an easy 10~30k in savings + loans they can extract

GG

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

You think people don’t have and use credit and debit cards anymore? Really?

Beelzebob,

People have savings? Sounds like the 90s.

HikingVet,

Where you getting the 10k figure, and how many people do you know who would have thay on hand.

escaped_cruzader,

Here in Brazil most better-off people have access to that in easy-to-contract loans in banking apps like Nubank, etc

lazycouchpotato,
@lazycouchpotato@lemmy.world avatar

“Taking you somewhere” is far too much effort. They can just watch you enter your passcode on your phone in a bar, then swipe your phone from you and gain access to all your accounts.

youtu.be/QUYODQB_2wQ

s_s,
@s_s@lemmy.one avatar

Biometrics are good for some things.

TauZero,

Yeah, for getting kidnapped 🤣

CurlyMoustache,
@CurlyMoustache@lemmy.world avatar

This scenario is of course impossible if you only carry cards or money 🤷

/s

escaped_cruzader,

Banking app access ransom isn’t the same as the good old ransom family for money, the risk/reward ratio is so much better

oce,
@oce@jlai.lu avatar

For me, the main drawback is rather than you need to get to a machine to get your physical money pieces regularly. Sometimes you run out, there’s no machine, or you have no time to find one, and it can put you in troubles, like being stuck in the middle of transit or getting at the cashier and realizing you don’t have enough.

Heavybell,
@Heavybell@lemmy.world avatar

Before I kind of blundered unintentionally into going mostly cashless, I’d just get cash out when I went grocery shopping. But thankfully by the time I was in charge of my own money it was pretty rare to need to spend money without the option of paying via EFTPOS.

pirat,

Thanks for teaching me the abbreviation EFTPOS.

Heavybell,
@Heavybell@lemmy.world avatar

Welcome :)

It was pretty common to hear people talk about it for a span of about 10-20 years in Australia. For as long as I can remember every bank gave you a card that was not a “true” credit or debit card, but would work in the EFTPOS machines of any domestic store. They were called Redicards, and were basically debit cards you couldn’t use online (once internet shopping became a thing), but worked in ATMs, stores etc. Even back in the 00s it was rare to see someone pulling out a cheque book to pay for anything, and now it’s basically unheard of. Talking to US friends I get the impression Australia beat them to this level of wide-spread electronic payments, by quite a margin.

This year the Redicard network is shutting down and I just got issued a second Visa debit card by my bank to replace it. End of an era…

HelloHotel,
@HelloHotel@lemmy.world avatar

Your in a cash+card hybrid country, right? In my country at least, you can go into a chain grocery store, buy somthing (doesnt matter what) and pull a small to medium amount of cash from your card. They are (slowly as to not alert people) trying to tear that system down and go cashless.

pascal,

Valid point. But I assure you if you lose your wallet in Japan with $300 in it (because, statistically, nobody will steal your wallet), you’ll find it at the police station next day.

(That’s the most statistical thing that can happen, please do not try.)

Riven,
@Riven@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Went there on vacation recently and my girlfriend left her luggage in an elevator and forgot it for 15 minutes. It was at the police box a block over.

pascal,

Finally a positive post on Lemmy!

CaptainSpaceman,

im gonna press X to doubt that you carry $300 to the grocery store, let alone that you carry that much groceries by hand while walking home

FryHyde,

Yeah homie I dunno there. I’m in Quebec right now and it’s extremely rare for me to get out of even a simple grocery run for less than $200. I could easily carry home 300 dollars worth of groceries, even buying mostly generics.

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

$300 is not at all unusual for groceries these days if you have a family.

tpihkal,

It is not hard to rack up $300 in groceries where I live. I’m lucky to walk out w/o spending at least $100 for my smaller trips.

And that’s just for me.

PersnickityPenguin,

$100 is my weekly beer bill.

PersnickityPenguin,

I had my wallet stolen years ago, within an hour someone had purchased thousands of $$$ worth of MacBook pros from the Apple store.

Don’t lose your debit card!!! The bank doesn’t do charge backs!

kameecoding,

how?

they would need a pin for that, for contactless payment there is a limit, I believe 200 euros in my country.

so did you write your pin down on a paper and put it in your wallet or do you have your money stored at a terrible bank?

tpihkal,

I don’t know about elsewhere, but in the US you can run a debit card as a credit card without needing the pin. Pin is only required for cash back.

therealjcdenton,

Cash society is a bad thing since when

dangblingus,

Psyop to make people think that electronic is superior.

Aux,

Since forever.

Ratulf,

As a German -Homer disappears in hedge

Johanno,

We only have a bit of the first panel (technology wise) and all of the bottom one

A_Random_Idiot, (edited )

What kind of 12 year old smartphone addict shit is this, that thinks fax machines, paper copies, cash and floppies are bad things?

MonkeMischief,

Fax machines are such bad things though.

Faxes and egregiously copying temporary things to paper are the worst.

Sorry, I just worked in a community computer center where people wasted so much paper trying to print stupid things from websites, and were forced to send 80 pages to their lawyers/government/propertylords/whatever, through a dial-up connection in terrible black and white, for $1.00 a page.

It took like 5 seconds per page and to actually send took between 5-20 minutes. . .if it didn’t just error out and force you to start over.

The worst nonsense is forcing people to download and print some 50 page agreement just so they can sign two pages and fax it back. That should be a jailable offense lol.

Cash and paper can stay.

Can we PLEASE just make normie-friendly email encryption so faxes can die for good though?!

I noticed you mentioned fax twice. Sorry if you’re a paper company rep or something. I’m just speaking from a place of pain lol.

learningduck,

With that much hassle, mailing them the document back and forth would be a better way.

uis,
@uis@lemmy.world avatar

Why the fuck “cash society” is backside? It means they care about privacy.

xChronoZerox,

The post isn’t about privacy, if it was, faxing wouldn’t be on there. I’d wager a strong guess it’s about convenience on one hand while choosing to be inconvenient on the other.

Edit: or maybe it’s more about high tech in some sectors and low tech in others, still not about privacy.

ours,

Why privacy would mean no fax? Fax is mostly more secure than email.

LwL,

Fax is unencrypted. Encrypted versions apparently exist but that’s not what Japan and Germany use.

And that aside my mom regularly gets sensitive patient data via fax at her workplace because the number is one digit off some doctor’s (bonus points for the inverse also happening, and her also working with sensitive data). Far less likely to happen with email. At most encrypted fax is equally secure.

Aceticon,

It is however point-to-point plus doesn’t go over a public network and the routers of “random” 3rd parties (as IP does not necessarily route your packets always via the same path, and NNTP - the e-mail protocol - is even worse).

Faxing is probably is inherently more private simply because generally there is just 1 company controlling the entire network it travels through (i.e. the phone landline network), though I would hardly call it secure.

Properly encrypted e-mail is more secure with regards to the contents but it leaks metadata (that there was a message of a certain size from a certain sender to a certain receiver at acertain time) to a lot more 3rd parties than a fax would.

uis,
@uis@lemmy.world avatar

doesn’t go over a public network

Your fax just went over public telephone network.

and NNTP - the e-mail protocol - is even worse

Wow, I haven’t seen NNTP in ages. Who still uses newsgroups? And how they even use it for email?

Aceticon,

Yeah, you’re right - it’s SMTP not NNTP. Considering that back in the day I used to telnet to port 25 of my uni’s server to send e-mails portraying as one of my teachers to take the piss of my friends and hence knew at least some of the protocol, I must be getting old to confuse the acronyms.

But yeah, the main point is not the network being “public” (in the sense that anybody can access it) it’s that - as I explained but you seemed to have missed - the intermediate hops for an e-mail travelling on the internet can be owned by just about anybody and, worse, not necessarilly in your country working under local laws - routing will often send things around in quite unexpected tours on a physical sense depending on network topology - whilst the nodes the fax data travels on a phone network are generally owned by just 1 company or 2 (the latter in countries with multiple landline providers if you send it from a phone in one to the phone in another, as the network topology is much simpler and all providers connect to each other directly).

If your data goes over at most only 2 networks owned by very specific companies it is inherently safer from eavesdropping that if it goes over an unknown number of networks owned by an unknow number of companies. This is not the same as saying it’s “safe” - it’s just one relative to the other, rather than an endorsment of faxing.

Also there are usually laws around eavesdropping on phone calls, from the old days, whilst it’s the Wild West out there when it comes to those operating intermediate nodes eavesdropping on e-mails.

Frankly, if you can’t send the data encrypted, then faxing is probably safer from a privacy point of view (it would take a crooked telecoms operator risking their license, a Court Order or physical access to eavesdrop on it), but if encrypted e-mail is safer at least content-wise, though as I pointed out plain e-mail with unencrypted headers leaks meta data even if the contents is encrypted.

uis,
@uis@lemmy.world avatar

to send e-mails portraying as one of my teachers to take the piss of my friends and hence knew at least some of the protocol

Nowdays client-server and server-server communication is ecrypted and signed, so no an issue now.

not necessarilly in your country working under local laws

Scary part when they do

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ru/0/08/%D0%92%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%8F_%D0%9B%D0%BE%D0%B6%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BD._%D0%A0%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%B7%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%B5%D1%82.jpg

Aceticon, (edited )

Yeah, those were the “good old days” before the openning of the Internet to the broader public when most protocols were all naive and innocent, with zero security consciousness, and SMTP servers didn’t even require a username:password pair from clients to send e-mails with specific From fields.

Mind you, it’s still possible to connect to most SMTP servers using the unencrypted protocol - as it sits on a different port than the stuff using TLS so can be enabled alongside the encrypted protocols - though it’s highly inadvisable to use the plain text protocols (the reason for which, by the way, goes back to my point about how IP can route packets through who-knows-were, so unencrypted stuff - most dangerously your password to access your e-mail - can be more easilly eavesdroped), but at least even the non-encrypted stuff nowadays requires a username and password.

As for your “point” about local law well, if you live in a coubtry next to those guys faxes will not go via there, ever, e-mails might very well go via there and end up in the modern equivalent of those tapes. Interestingly enough on this, when Snowden revelatiosn came out it was discovered that the UK surveillance apparatus (which is way more abusive than even the US) was eavesdropping on their side of the submarine cables that crossed the Atlantic from their coast and thus managed to eavesdrop on a significant proportion of the internet communications to and from all of Europe.

uis,
@uis@lemmy.world avatar

if you live in a coubtry next to those guys

What if I live in country WITH those guys? Using phone is less safe(as in police knocking down your door) than sending unencrypted email.

If you live next to those guys, you will be surprised how insecure phone networks are.

most dangerously your password to access your e-mail

Are we talking about client-server or server-server?

Aceticon,

Do you genuinelly think a surveillance society would refrain from watching people’s Internet use but not refrain from doing so for their phone landlines?!

Because that makes no sense at all, especially considering that in earlier days it was actually easier to record Internet usage (less data and already in digital format) than phone lines, though nowadays data storage, processing power and even speech-to-text engines make eavesdropping on phone lines easier.

In fact even supposedly Democratic nations have been caugh doing mass surveillance of people’s Internet use (that’s what the Snowden revelations were all about) - because there were no clear laws on that - all the while phone line surveillance does have clear laws, dating from way back, that require a Court Mandate for it to be lawfully done: it was and is legally easier to do mass surveilance on the Internet even in supposedly Rule Of Law Democratic nations that phone line surveillance.

uis,
@uis@lemmy.world avatar

Both of course, but landlines are low hanging fruit.

Chobbes,

Nowdays client-server and server-server communication is ecrypted and signed, so no an issue now.

This is probably true, but in a very unsatisfying way. It’s not accurate to say this is not an issue now because mail servers talk to each other with opportunistic encryption — if both ends say “hey, I support TLS” they’ll talk over TLS, but if either end claims to not support TLS they’ll default to plain text. This is deeply concerning because it’s very possible for somebody to mimic another server and get the connection downgraded to plain text, bypassing TLS altogether. There are standards to deal with this, like DANE, but most large e-mail providers don’t support this… The other more recent standard to address this is called MTA-STS, but it’s much weaker than DANE and can potentially be exploited (but at least gmail and outlook support it, I guess). E-mail security is in a weird place. It’s slightly better than the “completely unencrypted” situation that people seem to think it is… But it’s also pretty much impossible to guarantee that your e-mail will not be sent over plain text.

uis,
@uis@lemmy.world avatar

AFAIK DKIM/DMARC now is mandatory on most servers.

But it’s also pretty much impossible to guarantee that your e-mail will not be sent over plain text.

GPG. Or other E2EE.

Chobbes,

AFAIK DKIM/DMARC now is mandatory on most servers.

DKIM and DMARC don’t have anything to do with this. DKIM is a way for e-mail servers to sign e-mails with a key that’s placed in DNS in an attempt to prevent e-mail spoofing, but this in no way protects e-mails you send from potentially being read in plain text. DKIM is also not necessarily mandatory, and you can potentially get away with just SPF. Many mail servers also do not have strict sender policies, which could potentially allow for spoofing in certain situations. Also neither DKIM / SPF provide any protections if an attacker is able to poison DNS records.

GPG. Or other E2EE.

I mean, yes, but that’s not really the point. PGP has essentially nothing to do with the e-mail protocols aside from the S/MIME extensions. Almost no institution is using PGP to secure e-mails. You could also encrypt something using PGP before you sent it over the fax lines in theory.

uis,
@uis@lemmy.world avatar

Also neither DKIM / SPF provide any protections if an attacker is able to poison DNS records.

Neither TLS provide in such case. Attacker can request ACME cert.

Chobbes,

Neither TLS provide in such case. Attacker can request ACME cert.

Depends whose DNS you can mess with, but yes! It may be possible to poison DNS records for one e-mail server, but ACME certificate providers like letsencrypt (supposedly) try to do DNS lookups from multiple locations (so hopefully a simple man-in-the-middle attack will not be sufficient), and they do lookups directly from the authoritative DNS servers. This is, of course, not perfect and theoretically suffers from all of the same mitm problems, but it’s more thorough than most mail servers will be and would potentially limit who would be in the position to perform these attacks and get a bogus certificate issued.

With DNSSEC and DANE you are even able to specify which TLS certificate should be used for a service in a TLSA record, and you can protect your A records and your CAA record which should make it much harder to get bogus certificates issued. Of course you need to trust the TLDs in order to trust DNSSEC, but you already do implicitly (as you point out, if you control the TLD you can get whatever certificate you want issued through ACME). The reality right now is that all trust on the web ultimately stems from the TLDs and DNS, but the current situation with CAs introduces several potential attack vectors. The internet is certainly a lot more secure than it used to be even 10 years ago, but I think there’s still a lot of work to be done. DNSSEC, or something like it, would go a long way to solving some of the remaining issues.

ours,

Most emails are unencrypted. And indeed, in the medical profession, they were widespread. Nothing can protect from the sender putting in the wrong number or email address. I’ve received some seriously sensitive emails not meant for me because the people made typos and the recipients had the same family name as me (not sure how the email server decided it was close enough and delivered them to me).

I’ve also read for some businesses, it was critical to get an instant receipt that the fax has been properly received.

Now, I’m not defending using obsolete fax machines, it just had one advantage over email but today there are much better alternatives and dedicated platforms.

friendlymessage,

Most emails are unencrypted.

No, they are not. They are not end-to-end encrypted but they are encrypted between your PC and your service provider, between service providers and between service providers and receivers. End-to-end encryption is needed to defend against your service provider or entities that can order your provider around but not against random hackers snooping around in your network.

Fax on the other hand is never encrypted and also not signed, so there is no integrity protection. Fax is far, far less secure than even standard email. Businesses require fax often for legal reasons because laws are written by people with no technical understanding not because of any technical reason.

Chobbes,

No, they are not. They are not end-to-end encrypted but they are encrypted between your PC and your service provider, between service providers and between service providers and receivers. End-to-end encryption is needed to defend against your service provider or entities that can order your provider around but not against random hackers snooping around in your network.

This is true AND untrue at the same time! It’s true that most e-mail providers will talk to other e-mail providers with TLS, but it’s trivial to downgrade the connection in most circumstances. If you can man-in-the-middle e-mail servers you can just say “hey, I’m the e-mail provider you’re trying to talk to, I don’t support TLS, talk to me in plain text!” and the senders will probably oblige. There’s a few standards to try to address this problem, like DANE (which actually solves the problem, but is unsupported by all large e-mail providers), and mta-sts which is a much weaker standard (but supported by gmail and outlook). In practice there’s a good chance that your e-mail is reasonably well secured, but it’s absolutely not a guarantee.

friendlymessage,

That depends on the specific TLS setup. Badly configured TLS 1.2 would allow downgrade attacks, TLS 1.3 would not. I highly doubt the “in most circumstances” line, my guess would be that at least the big ones like gmail don’t allow unsecured communication with their servers at all. If not for their users’s privacy, then at least to combat spam.

Chobbes, (edited )

That depends on the specific TLS setup. Badly configured TLS 1.2 would allow downgrade attacks, TLS 1.3 would not.

Why would TLS 1.3 prevent this kind of downgrade attack? The issue is that TLS has never been a requirement for e-mail servers, so for interoperability they only do TLS opportunistically. Even if you configure your own e-mail server to only talk over TLS, nobody else knows that your server only speaks TLS (or speaks TLS at all), so if somebody is pretending to be your mail server they can just claim to only speak plain text and any sender will be more than happy to default to it. If you support DNSSEC you can use DANE to advertise that your mail server speaks TLS, and even fix the certificates that are allowed, but senders will actually have to check this in order to make sure nobody can intercept your e-mail. Notably both outlook and gmail do not support this (neither for sending nor receiving!), they both instead rely on the weaker MTA-STS standard.

my guess would be that at least the big ones like gmail don’t allow unsecured communication with their servers at all

They absolutely do :).

I highly doubt the “in most circumstances” line

That was maybe too strong of a statement, at least with the recent adoption of MTA-STS this is at least less trivial to do :). The intent of this statement was more “if you are in the position to be a man-in-the-middle between two generic e-mail servers it is trivial to downgrade the connection from TLS to plaintext”. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was hard-coded that gmail and outlook should only talk to each other over TLS, for instance, which should prevent this for e-mails sent between the two (I also wouldn’t be surprised if this wasn’t hard-coded either… There’s sort of a bad track record with e-mail security, and the lack of DNSSEC from either of these parties is disappointing!). Ignoring special configuration like this, and without MTA-STS or DANE these downgrade attacks are trivial. Now with the advent of MTA-STS you’ll probably have a reasonably hard time downgrading the connections between some of the large e-mail providers. Though notably this is not universally supported either, iCloud supports neither MTA-STS nor DANE for instance, and who knows about all of the various providers you never think of. This is a bit of a tangent, but a good talk about how large mail providers might not be as well configured as you’d hope: www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwnT15q_PS8

uis,
@uis@lemmy.world avatar

Because phone numbers and plain text.

a_wild_mimic_appears,

fax security is de facto nonexistant

HelloHotel,
@HelloHotel@lemmy.world avatar

Because a piece of highly debated governance structure, manifest as a piece of technology was put on the “bad” list, (by accedent?) implying the old way is out of date and switching is as much of a “you dont need to think, its just better” (no brainer) as switching your floppy disks and CRTs for USB sticks ano OLEDs. Tech advancing is usually but not a definite good thing.

Delphia,

Not taking cash = backwards.

Not taking digital payments = also backwards.

simin,

suggesting crypto?

vaultdweller013,

Get fed right to the joshua trees.

simin,

what

vaultdweller013,

Yes

simin,

ugh you suggest i should be fed to a tree?

vaultdweller013,

Yes theyre hungry

simin,

wt actual f man did someone use crypto to hurt you, anyways you shouldnt be saying shit like that.

vaultdweller013,

Bite me pissant

Chobbes,

They’re just suggesting that you should accept both cash and electronic payments.

simin,

that sounds weird though. is he suggesting that one should be fed to a tree? eff that.

Chobbes,

I’m not responding to that comment?

AnagrammadiCodeina,

And money recycling.

Aux,

Cash is traceable in most countries for decades now. Cash doesn’t mean privacy.

TauZero,

Question: do the Japanese actually care about privacy? I know I do, but if you were to ask a Japanese person why does their country use cash, would they say “We have considered a system of payment cards and decided against it for privacy reasons” or would they just shrug and say “I dunno, I’m not in charge of payment systems, I use what I have”?

Prandom_returns,

Suuuure, “privacy”. Wink wink.

CurlyMoustache,
@CurlyMoustache@lemmy.world avatar

I’m a criminal! Wank wank, nudge nudge

arc, (edited )

Not necessarily. It might be privacy but it could also be a combination of other reasons too - a cultural aversion to paperless transactions, a lack regulation for electronic payments, lack of a decent indigenous payment system, lack of financial safeguards, prevalence of fraud / skimming devices etc.

Some European countries were more into electronic transactions than others but with stuff like SEPA, chip & PIN, contactless payments I think most people are just fine using electronic payment unless they have reason to control the transaction in some way. For example I usually pay pretty much everything electronically but I still pay taxis and most restaurants with cash. Also tradesmen if they’ll give me a discount for cash.

CurlyMoustache,
@CurlyMoustache@lemmy.world avatar

I used to work in a shop when I was younger, and the older generation always asked for “cash discount”. Why on earth would we do that, my boss said to me. We need the money to be in the shop’s bank account, not laying around somewhere and not being used.

I remember carrying several 100k of our money, late at night, to our banks night safe and drop it in. That sucked. And they charged us for this too

arc,

Cash is off the books so there is an incentive for certain kinds of businesses like tradesmen to take cash because it still works out cheaper since they don’t have to declare it to the taxman.

tiredofsametab,

As someone who filled out multiple copies of the same contract by hand to buy a house recently, which had to be stamped with my seal and not signed, AHHHHHHHHHHghgghhg. On average, I only have to fax something once every several years. NTT, the main telecoms provider, STILL requires that you fax paperwork to get internet (at least for NTT East as of two years ago).

Using cash is great (except for my airline miles account), but one of the biggest banks in Japan is notorious for outages. ATMs here also, until very recently, had business days and hours. That's finally mostly gone, at least. They can still run out of money at the year-end holiday season as everyone is home with family and they're not always restocked in some locations, but more ATMs also helped to solve this. The problem with things transitioning to electronic payment is also those payment processors take a cut. We have all kinds of payment apps here, but many small businesses I know hate using it. The ones I know that use it most generally have larger foreign customer bases (anecdotal to business owners I know; may not be generally true in all of Tokyo/Japan).

learningduck,

FAX machines is still a thing in 2023!

ehrik,

America’s healthcare system still lives off of fax machines

NaoPb,

I like cash and fax machines. But floppy disks need to be retired. And paper filing is incredibly slow compared to digital databases.

Delphia,

Paper filing is good, digital filing with proper backups is good.

At my job for a staff evaluation I have to fill out a paper checklist, scan it, then enter the information digitally, then print the digital one and file it in the employees file with the original checklist and then upload a pdf of the paper checklist AND the digital one…

Instead of just having the evaluation portal open on a tablet and doing it ONE TIME with a good backup system.

NaoPb,

Yes, I agree it’s good to have a backup system.

[edit] I mean having a paper filing system as backup.

Delphia,

I could just print out the digital version and archive that or submit the digital and file the paper checklist.

I dont need a digital copy of the paper and a paper copy of the digital at the same time. Especially when they get filed/archived together.

NaoPb,

Fair point.

mtchristo,

Until you find out that those Nuclear launching pads still running with 1970 bug ass floppy disks. Things just work.

skeeter_dave,

They replaced those in the like 2018 or 2019.

I kinda want one of those disks for my collection though… “This is my 5150, Vic 20, Nuclear Missile Launch Floppy, Thinkpad 300…” Some quality conversation starters I thinks.

Isthisreddit,

I’d argue using cash, paper, floppies is fucking advanced and the right move.

Source - I work on tech

afraid_of_zombies,

Paper databases are a terrible system

uis,
@uis@lemmy.world avatar

Github uses black-and-white film. Depends. You can print qr codes or some other crazy encoding scheme.

afraid_of_zombies,

Do you know the difference between warehouse inventory management and a database?

uis,
@uis@lemmy.world avatar

You didn’t say you wanted database for warehouse inventory managment. In that case paper only useful for storing append-only logs or taking snapshots.

lud,

You are probably talking about the arctic vault.

They use film for extreme archival purposes that are not representative of anything normal.

Qr codes can be great but they obviously need to interact somehow (not directly I hope) with a real database.

uis,
@uis@lemmy.world avatar

You are probably talking about the arctic vault.

Yes, github arctic code vault. It seems some people just don’t get it.

Qr codes can be great but they obviously need to interact somehow (not directly I hope) with a real database.

I mean QR codes as a mean of storing lots of data on paper, in a way that does not require humam or OCR for computer to read. Basically as a joke about paper databases.

uis,
@uis@lemmy.world avatar
yamanii,
@yamanii@lemmy.world avatar

Enough with this American take, electronic voting works fine in Brazil, only right wingers complain about it, and the American ones also complained about their paper votes when they lose.

Eyelessoozeguy,

What does the Brazilian electronic voting system do that allows you to trust it? I’m not trying to bait or anything I know nothing about it and want to be informed.

Chakravanti,

Wait…wasn’t that a movie too?

uis,
@uis@lemmy.world avatar

Enough with this American take

Huston or whereever you are, you have problem. I live on other side of the pond. More specifically in certain biggest country, where Ella Pamfilova can pull out any number she wants from remote electronic voting.

electronic voting works fine in Brazil

It works here as intended too. Wins elections for Putin’s mafia.

only right wingers complain about it

4chanland, you have another problem. Putin is right wing. And he is super happy about it.

and the American ones also complained about their paper votes when they lose.

I don’t know what Americans complain about when they loose.

cmhe, (edited )

Luckily in many European countries it is not used.

I would credit institutions like the chaos computer club and other non-profits, which where instrumental in convincing the government about the dangers. It was a difficult battle against the corporate lobbyists, and is understandable that other countries could not fight against the corporate interests or corruption and succumb to use them.

There where and still are so many issues with them, one of the most fundamental is described by Ken Thompson in his Reflections on trusting trust, which is especially effective for electronic voting machines, where no other way of verification is possible.

thefloweracidic,

Mini Rant:

When you think about it software development is a relatively young profession compared to medicine, law, construction, public services, the arts, and so on. This is why modern tech kind of sucks despite being so cool, I say we are in the “Hey maybe we shouldn’t build our huts right on the river” phase of writing code, still figuring out problems that will appear mind numbingly simple in the future.

Another issue is the fact that tech builds on itself and its flaws can be painted over with abstractions, while the aforementioned professions can’t get away with being subpar for too long. So the full metaphor really is after the river floods we build on top of the ruins and claim victory because we are slightly more elevated and will take less damage during the next flood.

The secret to better tech is rebuilding everything from scratch. The internet wasn’t designed with security and bad actors in mind. Plenty of corporations are running a Frankenstein system that contains code older than most millennials, botched modernization efforts, buzzword laden over-engineered applications, and bugs that aren’t features just permanent residents in your code base.

…But there is profiteering to contend with, good code takes time, time is money, good code is expensive. “Good enough” code is easy to write, so its better for the bottom line.

In the end it really is…

Developer: “Hey the river flooded and our huts were demolished, we should move to higher ground and build there”

Corporate Leadership: “No that is too expensive, just build on the ruins and next flood we should be safer, oh also you’re laid off”

I know you didn’t ask for this, but its been on my mind for a while and I felt like this was a good time to get this out of my head haha

cmhe, (edited )

The secret to better tech is rebuilding everything from scratch. The internet wasn’t designed with security and bad actors in mind. Plenty of corporations are running a Frankenstein system that contains code older than most millennials, botched modernization efforts, buzzword laden over-engineered applications, and bugs that aren’t features just permanent residents in your code base.

Rebuilding everything from scratch will take ages and cost everyone a lot of money, because you have to replace all your hardware (router boxes, PC s, phones, smart watches, …), because the internet protocols are often designed into the hardware itself, and changing them fundamentally means a lot of trash. Also there is no system that guarantees that the result will have fewer issues or will not required to be succeeded by something else a couple of minutes later, because some new issue was discovered.

Also software is highly complex and need to adapt to many different scenarios, while maintaining compatibility to each other, which the other disciplines of human engineering don’t have to deal with as much, they are much more purpose driven.

It is like trying to create a universal building code (for building houses) that simultaneously works on every country on earth, hell, maybe even on multiple planets, with wildly different and constantly changing environments and is guaranteed to result in save houses. Not really possible in one shot, only possible by constantly trying to adapt. That is what software has to deal with. I am talking about fundamental software like the Linux kernel here, for example.

You cannot just start over and be better.

MonkeMischief,

I would love if we kept the floppy form factor but with SSD flash on the inside.

I loved the solid feeling of disks and that “kachunk” of the drives.

They were also easy to label!

freeman,

How exactly is a floppy more advanced and the right move? Or fucking paper and photocopiers,/printers.

Isthisreddit, (edited )

It’s like non-security tech savvy people embracing IoT devices throughout their homes - smart bulbs, smart toasters, etc - fucking disaster waiting to happen.

Keeping stuff offline with paper and floppies is exceptional SecOps. It’s obviously more work, and ease-of-use is degraded, but if we ever see real cyber warfare, having stuff on paper and/or airgapped storage is the best one can hope for

CurlyMoustache,
@CurlyMoustache@lemmy.world avatar

If you look a floppy disk from a weird angle, it will get a bad sector

dangblingus,

Ahh yes, floppy disks, where if you breathe on it, you just corrupted 1.44 megabytes of data.

thorbot,

Guess I’m the only one in the thread that hates cash. It’s filthy and messy. Much better to just beep my watch and move along

Kase,

Oh yeah. Maybe it’s because I’m still in the just-got-my-first-credit-card phase, but damn I love that little piece of plastic. I’m clumsy and suck at using cash, but I feel so graceful with a card.

dangblingus,

What is this comment? Who talks like this?

thorbot,

A 12 year old

lunatic,

And there’s no recompense or tracking if someone robs you or it gets stolen, it’s error-prone and slow (especially people who insist on giving exact fucking change…)

A_Random_Idiot,

Because theft of money via credit cards is a thing thats never happened.

LastYearsPumpkin,

It’s much easier to roll back a fraudulent electronic transaction, than a fraudulent cash transaction.

Dozzi92,
@Dozzi92@lemmy.world avatar

Yeah, my credit card is just a buffer for my actual cash. I buy. Something happens, maybe a defective product, and merchant is being a piece of shit, I just disoure that shit. With cash, that’s it, you are done.

That being said, here I am, new cars in the mail because somehow it was compromised and someone wanted to buy some junk in Ohio I guess. So there’s definitely the inconvenience associated with that. But when young Dozzi92 was an idiot and lost his wallet, carda get replaced, but missing cash is missing cash.

thorbot,

Yep. And my Apple Card rotates its number automatically so even if my number is stolen it just vanishes after a while. Technology!

Katana314,

The one thing I don’t like about digital payments is that so far, they’ve all been owned/controlled by various major card processors, like Visa. That control really gives those processors a dominant position and basically free money.

MonkeMischief,

This. I love how much easier it is to manage digital make-believe numbers, than tons of leaflets and pucks that represent make-believe numbers.

I just wish the system that handled it was more… democratic? Instead of corporate feudalism with credit scores…

Kuroshio,

You mean like a cryptographic, decentralized, digital currency?

MonkeMischief,

Loved the idea behind satoshis. Even tried it out. Even made a little money and got out before it all crashed.

It was an interesting concept until all the mega-grifters showed up to make it yet another speculative commodity to fuel their insatiable gambling addictions.

I consider myself pretty knowledgable in lots of computing topics but even I felt very shakey at the sheer paranoia required to keep digital currency safe. (Assuming it doesn’t suddenly become worthless overnight on its own).

I can’t imagine normies navigating that. And using paypal or a bank or something put you right back at “not your coins” anyway.

Personlly, dumping 100% of it all at once purged a LOT of anxiety.

Plus, accounts are readily trackable on public ledgers. Not very private as soon as various means are deployed to know your public account.

The thing that saddened me most was seeing how much freaking energy and technology was thrown on the pyre of make-believe numbers. The “metaverse”, web3, the fact NFTs even happened. Hardware shortages whenever some new coin figured out how to store a hash on it. Super sophisticated scams everywhere…

If anything it was definitely a psychological experiment to see what intangible nonsense even entire nation-states would devote massive resources to instead of feeding or housing people.

Not to mention the huge mess with constantly changing laws and taxes from officials who struggle to send emails.

Plus, and finally, it was supposed to democratize money unlike fiat currency, but it was worth fiat currency, so the a-holes hoarding all the fiat currency just gobbled up all the digital ones too and tried to sell it back to us.

Maybe we’ll get something better in the future.

dangblingus,

As opposed to using debit or credit, which is also owned and controlled by all of the major credit card companies.

ManosTheHandsOfFate,
@ManosTheHandsOfFate@lemmy.world avatar

No, as opposed to using cash.

thorbot,

I really just don’t care. The ATM you got the cash from gets a cut of the fees. It’s all corporate bullshit anyway

HelloHotel,
@HelloHotel@lemmy.world avatar

I really just don’t care either, Ill just pay who im forced to, 1/10th of my paycheck (it costs them pennies to make) or I could randomly die. It’s all corporate bullshit anyway. /s

I really just do not care, Ill just take out a loan I cannot afford so I can stop playing chicken on crosswalks and avoid dieing to that driver who is on their phone, not paying attention. Its just human bullshit anyway. /s

thorbot,

glad we can agree!

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

As soon as I could pay for things with my phone, I did. Now I’m annoyed when I can’t.

dangblingus,

Watch is more convenient, it’s also insanely insecure. Watch out for NFC scanners in public.

Fogle,

Use credit cards and just report fraudulent charges

Chobbes,

In my experience with my Apple Watch you have to activate the wallet functionality in order to pay for something by clicking the side button twice, which should make it harder for somebody to just walk around with a terminal charging random people. Phones usually need to be unlocked to make payments too. In theory NFC credit cards could be scanned like this, and if you’re worried about that you can look into NFC blocking wallets… I’m not super worried about it, though, because usually you wouldn’t be on the hook for such a fraudulent charge.

thorbot,

Apple is smart enough to design the feature in a way where the user has to know and approve the transaction. Dangblingus is a fucking idiot

thorbot,

This is just pure bullshit scare tactics. In order to successfully make a transaction, I have to have my watch facing me, double click the button, and then hold it near the terminal for a few seconds. There is no way someone could just swoop in and do a transaction without my knowledge. It’s bullshit fearmongering like this that makes people scared of new features like NameDrop. Quit it.

dangblingus,

Sounds inconvenient! I take it back. Secure yes. Convenient no.

FrankTheHealer,

Agreed. I think cash should always be there as a fallback. But 9/10, I prefer to use card because cash is so dirty, and is harder to keep track of.

If I go to my bank app. I know exactly how much I have. Whereas if I keep cash in my wallet, I have to count it all out and keep track of it in my head. I don’t like that. It’s just more awkward for me.

blackn1ght,

Cash should always be available and accepted, but personally I absolutely avoid it unless absolutely necessary.

I can’t remember the last time I used cash too buy something.

zeekaran,

I only use cash to buy things from people in my area.

pascal,

Yes but how do you pay your prostitute? I’m surely not in the mood to explain my wife what’s that $200 transaction on my card from a MELINDA TEEN at midnight that day I was supposed to be late at work.

thorbot,

the fuck is wrong with you

pascal,

You don’t pay for sex? You must be a communist!

thorbot,

Fuck off troll

pascal,

Thank you, you too.

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