featureset and costs - most messaging apps don’t support markdown to the same extent, sms and mms may cost extra depending on your carrier and contract, etc.
not defending whatsapp but rather the concept in general - use signal/discord myself depending on the situation
Yeah, same here. In Germany WhatsApp is extremely dominant. I tried to move to Threema, but only a couple of people are using it in the end, even after discussing the whole Facebook thing. Some people are also on Signal, but again, only a few. In the end, especially for groups, I still have to use WhatsApp.
The moment when I hear someone talking about SMS it is almost always an American. Can’t recall the last time I sent a text message to someone like that, wouldn’t surprise me if it was 10 years ago (for context: am Dutch)
It’s not just the US, but you gotta realize that SMS has advantages. It isn’t better than any other protocol, but it has the major benefit of not being tied to internet connectivity. There are a ton of places where data signals aren’t as reliable.
It’s universal, in that every carrier I’ve heard of has it. So it should work no matter what carrier you’re on.
It will work right out of the box with any phone you buy because it’s carrier based. You don’t have to install anything else to use it. You don’t have an extra login, no need to remember another password.
It’s simple. You type, and that’s it. No attachments (that’s mms), no stickers, no junk. This makes it fast and easy for anyone to use.
And, you don’t have to convince anyone else to install anything.
Obviously, there’s benefits to data messaging, I’m not saying there aren’t. I use other messaging way more than SMS, and have for maybe a decade now, though what I’ve used has changed over time.
But, yah, we yanks tend to value it more than the other countries where it’s still important. That goes back to the pricing when data became a thing. Anywhere that data was cheap but sms merered, adopted things like whatsapp. Anywhere that sms was cheap, but data expensive used SMS by default. Iirc, Canada is the other big SMS focused nation. I think there’s one or two in SEA, and the same in south America. I don’t recall any of Europe having been sms focused, nor Africa.
TBH though, I tend to not get why anyone cares what another country uses within its own system. Like, if the EU did away with SMS entirely, it wouldn’t prevent the US and Canada from having SMS. And if we did away with messengers via data (as dumb as it would be), y’all would still be fine.
The only time it matters is for international, or directly cross border communication. But there’s multiple standards for that kind of communication anyway. Me and you aren’t going to exchange phone numbers to use SMS, nor are we likely to use whatsapp together. If we struck up a friendship, we’d figure out what platform we both like, and use it. Since this is lemmy, I suspect it would be matrix or signal or maybe telegram.
Absolutely! Like I said, other protocols have their own beneft, and that’s a huge one. It’s why SMS for me is limited to really bland stuff when I can’t get data signal in a store. Even that, I tend to keep my phone off in stores, but when you’re doing “emergency” shopping for someone else, you kinda have to give up a little personal preference
That “lot of people” probably represent less than 1% of the population. “Normal” people don’t use alternatives to SMS because they’re more secure, they used them because otherwise they wouldn’t be able to communicate with their friends.
You’re on a platform where the privacy and open source crowd has a big stronghold, normies don’t give a crap about that.
Heck, I’m very tech literate and the only reason I’ve got an alternative installed on my phone is because I’ve got two friends with whom it’s become a meme that we use anything but SMS, everything else I do via SMS/MMS/RCS.
1% if the population is a lot of people, and encryption is becoming more and more important to “normal” people, otherwise WhatsApp etc. wouldn’t be making such a big deal about it as a feature.
If you’re using WhatsApp only because you need to pay for SMS or all your friends who have to pay for SMS use it, is privacy such a big deal to you?
The only reason I ever had it installed was because I became friends with people from other countries that had to pay for SMS when we didn’t, they would have otherwise used SMS because it’s a no brainer to just use the tech that doesn’t require data and that’s available by default.
Those are interesting points. I think I’m unaware of how many places there are without a proper data connection. I guess The Netherlands being this small has its benefits! Granted I haven’t traveled everywhere in the Netherlands but whenever I travel somewhere I have a proper connection.
While you are right that sms is the simplest form of messaging a phone can provide, I think nowadays everybody, their parents, and their grandparents know how to WhatsApp, but that might be limited to the Netherlands?
I can’t speak for the rest of Europe but we used to have all kinds of deals to make sms cheap, you could send 1000 messages for 10 bucks. Slowly but surely the internet connectivity as we know it today came around, and while there were still limits on the amount of SMS you could send in the early days, I’m pretty sure we haven’t had those for a while! Maybe we’re just too used to WhatsApp now.
I send SM’s to my kids when they’re on the go, as they religiously disable gsm data and only use wifi, which means they regularly don’t get my WhatsApp messages.
Before they got their own smartphone I was scared that their data plans would cost me an arm and a leg, but it turns out they’re extremely stingy with their data 🤷♂️
An irrational fear of suddenly using all of it up. Before they got their phones, we drilled it into them to be conservative in their data usage. It’s not that they complain that they have too little data, or how annoying it is that they have to leave it switched off to conserve it, they somehow are convinced that it is pointless to leave it on. We have mentioned numerous times that we’d be fine with upgrading their data plan, but they don’t want to. It’s like us in the nineties dialing into our ISP to download e-mail. Weird. Cheap. But weird.
That’s interesting. I know a lot of people who WhatsApp with their grandparents though. All you have to do is install it on their phones once and then their phone becomes “the WhatsApp” in my experience
The messaging thats built in is unencrypted SMS. For more advanced features like group chats, sending media, voice notes, encryption, cross device support etc, an encrypted messaging app like Signal, Session , Matrix or even Telegram is better
You either have SMS, which hasn’t benefitted from any of the advancements of the last decade, or you have iMessage which forces you and friends to spend WAY more money than needed because you essentially NEED an iPhone to use it with your phone number.
I have Android, my wife has iOS, I can chat with her singly and in group chat with other family members, I don’t see a need to complicate things with another chat application.
It’s just the default app that came with my phone. Encryption isn’t important to me unless someone really wants to snoop on who may or may not have forgotten to buy toilet paper. LOL. We aren’t talking trade secrets here.
I like to quote this from privacyguides.org: “Much like the right to interracial marriage, woman’s suffrage, freedom of speech, and many others, our right to privacy hasn’t always been upheld. In several dictatorships, it still isn’t. Generations before ours fought for our right to privacy. Privacy is a human right, inherent to all of us, that we are entitled to (without discrimination).
You shouldn’t confuse privacy with secrecy. We know what happens in the bathroom, but you still close the door. That’s because you want privacy, not secrecy. Everyone has something to protect. Privacy is something that makes us human.”
My wife has an iPhone, I have an Android phone, our kid has Android, his wife has iPhone… there have been zero problems using the native apps singly or in groups.
In fact, I had more problems trying a low-rent provider (Mint) than I ever did the various stock messaging apps.
Messaging apps curse is exactly that… No matter how good they are, if nobody is using it… In WhatsApp I have +100 of my contacts, in Telegram, 20. In Signal, less than 10, so…
I’ve never used it, and I never intend to. I know SMS isn’t ideal for privacy, but at least I can use FOSS apps to interact with it, and it doesn’t mandate intrusive features like “reactions” or read receipts
I’m not sure what’s intrusive about reactions but you can turn off read receipts. Yeah it isn’t ideal either but video calls, sending media/files, group chats (do NOT suggest MMS. Never MMS.) and so on. Lots of features, secure, but yeah privacy is dogshit. Signal is great but I’ve only managed to convert a few people to it.
I’d welcome the chance to use something more privacy based than Signal
I just never like reactions in an app used for general messaging. They make sense on a more memey plaything like Discord, but not in a messaging app that I’m supposed to take seriously as my primary way to communicate. In fact, simple text only without any other formatting would be ideal. That’s kinda what I like about this place, with the exception of upvotes/downvotes, which could be removed for all I care.
I’ve got a group chat going in SMS with several family members, and I always cringe when I get the message “[brother] laughed at an image,” and I don’t even know what fucking image it was because I don’t have an iPhone.
Reactions just seem like something that should have never been implemented in a place where they’re not universally supported. Maybe I’d feel different with Signal, since I could simply not pay any attention to them. But if someone can’t simply have the time to say “I like that,” then why even react at all? I don’t need to know that you lived, laughed, loved at my image.
I think it’s less annoying with a large group chat to have people react to an image than 20 identical messages. I’ve seen some do group votes through that (👍 vs 👎) which seems like a good use case. Tbh I haven’t seen people use reactions much so probably partly because of that they don’t bother me.
I guess it would be preferable to getting all the disembodied “x laughed at an image” or “x loved an image” messages without even knowing which image it refers to. One could simply ignore the feature if it were less intrusive.
Realistically, out of the very few people (in relative terms, of course) that use signaly, I highly doubt there was a huge number that relied on it for SMS. Or even knew about SMS. First, you have to rule out anyone who was using it on iOS (by this point, you probably have thousands of people left out of the entire pool - yes I’m kinda pullin that out of my ass but you get my point - which is nothing).
So killing SMS definitely wasn’t the make or break for Signal. Not even close to being likely.
Yeah, I guess I’m not sure about the actual statistics. I do know it was the point when I realized I wouldn’t personally use Signal because everyone I know uses SMS, SMS federates with email, and if I tried switching to a non-SMS app, I’d be screaming into a void.
The only other message apps people around here use are Snapchat, FB Messenger, and WhatsApp, and I’d rather cut people off than use any of those.
I’ve been using Beeper a month or two. They had a long waiting list, and initially it was subscription only, but they are working on smashing through the waiting list and have changed to a freemium model where you get it for free and (eventually) they will have extra features for subscribers.
Basically, it’s one chat app that connects to lots of different chat services.
If you’re technical, the app is a fork of Element, and the service uses matrix bridges to connect to different chat services, but it’s all presented in a (somewhat) polished way. The wait list is because they are still struggling with scaling and quirks but if you’re on Lemmy you’re probably already well familiar with putting up with this.
It covers heaps of chat networks. Whatsapp, Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, Signal, Telegram, and more. It also will let you SMS (unlike Signal 😬).
You can also connect to Matrix rooms but you don’t seem to be able to connect to an existing Matrix account (it uses a Beeper matrix account to connect).
It doesn’t do video/audio calls so they recommend you leave the original app installed and disable message notifications (but leave on call notifications) if you use this.
Yep. But if you’re keen on this stuff, you can self host matrix and the bridges and do it yourself. Their bridges are open source, just not their apps whose features are their business model.
Nice. Looking into this one. Although in reality I use about 95% whatsapp just because everyone else does. Wish we could all just switch to Signal or even Telegram but nah… Whatsapp is so engrained everywhere that it is not going to go away anytime soon.
Well, that’s super neat and very useful for my circumstances. I’m moving outside of the US soon to a place where WhatsApp is dominant, but I still want to use SMS/MMS with family and friends in the US since I doubt they’ll make the switch. I’ve been using WhatsApp for about a year now while coordinating stuff for my soon-to-be home and I’ve come to the conclusion that WhatsApp is complete garbage.
I literally installed Telegram/Signal on my families devices, synced their contacts with the app, and said “if you want timely responses, message me here”
I saw the technical discussions (if you are a tech person I would recommend watching those on YT) and it seems that EU is trying to find some middle ground where companies won’t have to incur a lot of losses but still be open and create a fair environment for newcomers.
Interoperability is a weird one though. Imagine WhatsApp can connect to Signal, and people use this feature. What would then be the point of using Signal, if WhatsApp gets the data after all?
(Signal has already announced not wanting to support this, I just used it as an example)
I just don’t want to be tied to an apple device to Message people who only have iMessage. I live outside of the US but all my family, friends, and contacts are there.
I feel locked into iOS as international texting and calls would be so expensive.
I’m an apple user, but I really think the issue is being created by apple. They talked about doing iMessage on android and then someone else was like no we can’t we want people to be locked into their iPhone.
As I understand it, your example should be the other way around. WhatsApp will need to offer a public API to allow Signal to send and receive messages to/from WhatsApp users.
Signal is unlikely to be deemed a gatekeeper, so can keep their closed communication ecosystem. They can just optionally choose to support interop with WhatsApp. If they prefer, they can also have big warning signs in the UI, when their users decide to utilize that interop.
Whatever way it works, I could see people giving up certain services if they allow interoperability with the gatekeepers, because why use these alternatives then.
But then again, the services that take privacy seriously won’t do it in the first place, so it should be a non-issue.
Since WhatsApp is proprietary, we don’t know if the users are the only ones who can decrypt their messages. I’ll always have to assume Meta can read everything, which is the most sensible data they could possibly collect.
So that alone should be reason enough to avoid it.
Yes. I don’t endorse WhatsApp. What I meant is if you chat with 15 people out of which 5 use WhatsApp, only those 5 chats are potentially readable by Meta. Because those are the only chats which will get sent to Meta servers.
So you have the benefit that the other 10 chats are not readable by Meta.
At this point I just assume Meta, Google and Apple have my number due to people storing the number on their devices. Amazon also might have it because people might have paid me via Amazon Pay (and given it access to contacts).
The thing it’s missing the most is better multi device support and an updated desktop client.
For me, I think Matrix is more complete (specially since it backs-up your chats and media encrypted). The only thing it’s lacking (at least Element specific) is encrypted chat search support on mobile.
I use it for linux. Recently there was a bug where if you had a chat opened, it would pin one core to 100% usage. It also lacks feature parity with the mobile client (ex: gif search and send).
I use it on windows. The client is totally fine for the most part.
Though for some reason it regularly screws up the device-connection, forcing me to reconnect the device, loosing access to every old message. Seems to be a rare bug though, as my family also uses the windows client and theirs never has this problem (out of 8 device 1 has this problem)
Yeah, it sucks that if I were using Signal only on my phone and eventually decide to start using it on desktop, it doesn’t sync any conversation history, resulting in the desktop client showing nothing from before you set it up. It should have older devices send history to new ones. If you’re permanently switching devices, are you losing that history for good?
It has bridges for most messaging services so you could use a matrix frontend for most of your messaging needs without having people on matrix so long as the server admin has set up those extensions
iMessage can’t be “the mainstream” app by locking out most of the world tho. Plus it is definitely the ugliest thing Apple has ever made in its lifetime that I know of.
I don’t think it’s really a chat app. Isn’t it just a text replacement? Or does it just use that number as your ID to use it? I have it, but only ever used it with one guy.
It has lots of nice features over SMS: read/typing notifications, image/video support, proper groups, message expiration. I think that makes it a chat app
Except it does nearly everything any other messaging app does, so there really is no need to force a switch. Unlike Internet Explorer, that used outdated rendering engine making it both slow and buggy, it was unsafe as it used ActiveX, didn’t support ad-blockers it actually broke or didn’t open most new website.
Except people at one point realized that IE is shit and switched to better alternatives. I don’t see this happening with WhatsApp - everyone and their great grandfather uses it and all other messengers are niche occurrences
I agree 100% with you. Whatscrapp is just a proprietary user subjugating version of XMPP. I prefer to communicate using xmpp protocol because it’s federated like fediverse. You can use conversation for android
Best messaging app is the one that has most users and is free to use. Sadly the truth is so simple, that’s why everyone in Asia, Europe, Africa and South America use WhatsApp.
Am in Europe and have never used Whatsapp. In fact, the only guy I know who does started using it because the company he was with at the time had a lot of business in Shanghai where they DO use it a lot.
I do have like 2 people I only talk to once or twice a year that I don’t have any other known contact for. But I only use it very rarely because of that. If I ever stop talking to them, I’ll finally delete the whole account.
Yeah, that’s the real “internet explorer of messaging services”. Absolutely sucks to use it (doesn’t even.deliver messages to me half the time), but 90% insist on it for chat groupa and such.
Texting is expensive and mobile data for Whatsapp messages is much cheaper, even though mobile data prices are still outrageous.
In South Africa 1 SMS costs 50 cents on standard rates, and 25 cents on bundle rates. For one message. There are 100 cents in one Rand obviously. 1GB of data is around 80 Rand. If one WhatsApp text message is 30kb, 1GB of mobile data gets you over 30 000 WhatsApp texts. Meanwhile that same 80 Rand only gets you around 300 SMS’s on bundle rates.
Oh i get it now. The person in the photo is an asshole in real life. It only took me a day of wondering why would someone be an asshole for not liking a meme template 😅
He’s a right wing piece of shit who constantly says and does the most unhinged shit. Don’t really follow him, but from the top of my head, he mocked George Floyd’s death, he mocks trans people on a regular basis…
If you live in most of Europe or definitely Latin America, yeah, it is so popular it's kind of inconceivable not to use it, or at least hard to imagine. I genuinely don't understand how people in the US communicate.
I've used SMS exactly 3 times in my life, all 10+ years ago. My phone plan doesn't even include SMS anymore. It boggles my mind that people use SMS in the US, and I mean that seriously.
Signal is centralized and requires a phone number. This is potentially impactful to your anonymity. So, for example if the recipients device is comprised that encryption doesn’t mean much and you may be identifiable.
All that said, I use Signal. But it’s good to know it’s shortcomings.
Edit: added potentially. You could certainly have a number not associated with your identity.
anonymity, privacy, and security are not inclusive of the other and anonymity is not in scope of signal. SimpleX would be a better option if that’s your goal, although being in beta still, I can’t fully recommend it
I wish I could say the same but if you want to date you have to here. I despise and absolutely hate how you have to you use a phone number to register. And then every contact you have can add you to a group so everyone there now can have your number.
I’ve had a stalker before and I hate that stuff like that makes it trivially easy for her to get my number again. I literally can’t understand how women are okay with absolutely shitty systems like this. I really can’t repeat enough how much I strongly hate WhatsApp and how everyone else thinks it’s so good for exactly the reason that I hate it. It’s too easy to send messages despite me never giving you my number to begin with. SMS is the same but you can’t add me to a group without my permission and share my number with a group of people I don’t know.
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