Authoritarians and fascists often lie about what they are to make themselves more attractive to morons. The Nazis had nothing to do with “socialism.”
For example, North Korea calls itself the “Democratic People’s Republic of Korea.” It’s not Democratic. It’s not “the people’s.” And it’s definitely not a Republic.
Chinese communist party? China has one of the largest wealth disparities of any country. They spew pollution out of newly built coal plants because they care about money above all else. They’re capitalists for fuck sake!
“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”
When a small but dedicated group of vocal people started unironically and emphatically believing the planet was a pancake, I lost a significant portion of my lingering reserves of hope for the future of mankind.
Extremist politics and all the associated mindsets have long since jumped a row of sharks in my mind by comparison.
From my limited understanding, it mostly seems like misattribution of all the very obvious chaos and uncertainty about “grand” events like climate change, economical strife, etc.
It’s less that someone holds pancake planet as their sole belief but more a web of interconnected beliefs that would explain the true cause of these nebulous events if they were true.
Not that it makes the outcome any better that people choose a more palatable ideological narrative over reality but there is a part of me that recognizes ignorance would be more blissful.
They decided that the financial success of a certain group of people can be fully attributed to these people exploiting the rest of the populace, and therefore the world will only benefit if they get rid of these people.
Yup. Doesn’t sound like anything modern day leftists and socialists would say.
could you remind me which part of Marxism exactly it was Stalin was implementing, other than claiming to be in line with Marxism? a dictatorship of the proletariat perhaps?
Participating in a violent overthrow of capitalism? ✅
Establishing an authoritarian socialist dictatorship that rules with an iron fist? ✅
Seizing land and property by force? ✅
Purging anybody and everybody that didn’t fall in line under the guise of being “anti-revolutionary”? ✅
Destroying the environment, cities, culture, and people to bring about the social climate necessary to bring about communism™? ✅
Committing genocides to get rid of “anti-revolutionary” groups? ✅
Pumping propaganda about Marxism? ✅
Ruling as the dictator of the the communist party that supposed to rule on the “behalf” of workers? ✅
He’s a Marxist and there’s literally nothing you could say to change that.
Many Marxists are damaged enough to actually believe that Marxism isn’t authoritarian when it inherently is. Authoritarianism ≠ fascism. Fascism is just one of many ideologies that are authoritarian, Marxism is among these ideologies.
Marx had two things: a critique of industrialist society, and a plan for how to fix said society. His critique was valid, his solutions were questionable. I don’t think you’ll find many socialists today who consider themselves Marxists.
Stalin cherry-picked what he wanted from “Marxism” and left behind the things he didn’t like. That doesn’t make him a Marxist, it makes him a Stalinist, and there’s literally nothing you could say to change that.
Stalin was a dictator - which is antithetical to the core principles of communism. You cannot be both a communist and a dictator, they are diametrically opposed.
It’s a shame Lenin died right after the establishment of the USSR, he disdained everything Stalin became.
Communism is and isn’t authoritarian. The establishment is, and the struggle to prevent regress into capitalism is, but for the people who aren’t trying to exploit others, it isn’t.
Authoritarianism ≠ fascism
Authoritarianism + ultranationalism = fascism.
Communism isn’t anything like fascism. Communism, by definition, rejects nationalism, and considers every proletariat family, regardless of nationality and ethnicity. The only enemy of communism is the bourgeoisie (dictators and fascists foremost)
that’s rather surprising. Maybe it’s just dependant on location, but here, everybody calls lefties commies and right wingers nazis. That is, if they are being disagreeable to whichever side they are talking about. Most of the time they don’t just label everyone with a different opinion than them as extremists
So the thing about calling right wingers nazis, is right wingers who seemingly have no qualms about people with actual nazi paraphernalia supporting the same causes and going to the same marches, but the second this is pointed out their retort is "what! we're not nazis! the nazis were the national socialist workers party! it says socialist right in the name! Ergo the socialists are nazis!
I think confusion comes in to play because at some point, socialism turns into authoritarianism, which isn’t far off from both totalitarianism and fascism. None of that is good.
I didn’t say that. Just that socialism, when taken to an extreme, is. Technically no form if government is inherently the evil three, but they can all become one of them.
Just ask them how come you can find plenty of swastikas at Trump rallies, plenty of merchants selling them too, but none of either at Democratic rallies?
Are the communists supporting the Republicans?
Are the Republicans communists?
Finally why is the person you’re talking to aligning themselves with communist sympathisers?
That doesn’t really hold water too well. Most european right wing parties, including those which are veiled neonazis, have close ties with Russia. The Russia, which has a leader cult around someone who claims to be stomping out Neonazis in the Ukraine.
Many of them also have ties with China, which officially is still communist and also is best friends with the leader-cult leader in Russia.
Most often international “friend groups” are determined by the “enemy-of-my-enemy” principle, and not by ideological similarities.
Not the person you’re talking to but I have, in fact, talked to actual Kartoffel-Germans who’d straight up swallowed the American propaganda and insisted on the “Sozialisten” part being the important one. They’re few and far in between because our schools aren’t complete failures but they do exist.
I have heard that the right wing party of my country are actually communists and the “left wing” party are actually conservatives so. Not just an American thing.
I got it, but in our current age with what’s going on we need to be clear unfortunately. We will not accept fascist/Nazi views and should do everything possible to remove them from society. Tolerance of intolerance (specifically in the context of this post) does not fly. Those views are not welcome in modern society. They should never be welcome in any society. This isn’t for you SeaJ. It’s for anyone who could even contemplate that ideology. If you sympathize with Nazi ideology you are not welcome here and “here” is Earth. Go subjugate Pluto and get off my planet!
~70% of communication is nonverbal. Body language and tone of voice convey that you intend something opposite of the literal words you’re using. When you throw the nonverbal aspect out the window for an entirely verbal exchange, especially online where everybody is a stranger and potentially something akin to but not necessarily a Nazi, it’s pretty difficult to ascertain whether you’re dealing with somebody who is broadcasting silly thoughts to satirically display the stupidity and absurdity of supporting fascism or an actual supporter of fascism who is actually stupid and absurd. Without using italics or “/s” we can’t know for sure because there are almost certainly some dipshits who believe whatever you say sarcastically without a shred of self awareness.
But yeah, I think the comment you’re talking about was pretty obviously meant to be sarcasm. It could only be misunderstood by people who don’t know what those words mean lol.
Strawman aside, anyone who thinks national socialism has anything to do with socialism needs to seriously educate themselves on Nazi ideology. Socialism to Hitler was nothing more than a buzzword he used to boost approval rates and votes quickly
As soon as they came into power, the Nazis did a complete 180° and swept every single promise they had made under the rug, kicking out or straight up murdering anyone, even in their own party (e.g. Sturmabteilung), who may have genuinely believed the party’s socialist façade.
Their socialist agenda was not the only falsehood the Nazis pushed though (surprising, I know!). The only three things the Nazis actually believed in were:
Hitler
Jews/Poles/anyone Hitler didn’t like = kill
Germany is entitled to take what they want from anyone because Lebensraum
I think it was more that in the early days of the Nazi party they did accept socialists. It was more of a big tent party because they needed to attract members. Hitler was never a fan of socialism and as he gained power he purged the socialists from the party.
Unfortunately in the west we are heavily indoctrinated against socialism. Or even knowing what socialism is. While at the same time heavily apologist to groups and parties closely aligned to the Nazis and the fascists. A large group of Republican legislators and their wealthy friends wanted a fascist overthrow around the same time Hitler attempted his first coup. They were never punished nor was the party ever admonished or reformed. To this day the descendants of people likely involved are still in power.
In the west means America? Bc I know for a fact that me, and many of my European brothers and sisters, are well aware of the tenets of socialism, and that our various socdem governments are little more than capitalists in sheep’s clothing. Also, fascism is not treated kindly here. Though tbf, also not harshly enough.
Especially in America definitely. Things are a little better in Europe. But are degrading heavily at a steady pace. But yes West generally means US sphere of influence. Because Europe and much of that is generally in what’s considered globally the east in a physical sense.
It is pretty terrifying though. How few people understand that while Hitler had his beer hall putsch. Republicans here were plotting their own. And we’re never punished or had any repercussions for it. They just got called out and temporarily shamed into behaving. But quickly went right back to fascist plotting. The extra sad bit being that our far left party here is actually well right of center. And generally pretty willing to work with fascist Republicans on many things.
I’m not gonna say you did, my reading comprehension might be off, but I got the impression that you implied Europe is part of the east, which is obviously silly. Also, the maps why use here does not even places us in the east, in a physical sense, but smack dab in the middle. I guess the takeaway should be, it all comes down to perspective… Also, I appreciate your comment, my friend.
Eastern hemisphere. Western sphere of influence. But yeah. We’re on the same page. I’m definitely open to being wrong though. I realized quite a while back just how indoctrinated and miseducated we Americans are. And constantly finding more to undo. Gotta keep an open mind and all.
These were my first comments and first interaction, after finally ditching reddit. What a positive and kind interaction. A real conversation, or exchange of thoughts, instead of a gotcha moment.
Unless they didn’t pay attention they were taught it here in the U.S.
No one should be able to make a logical leap from the way people refer to hitler in the U.S. to anything attempting at equality or socialistic.
There are 2 seperate terms that are taught here that could confuse people though. State and Australia. Using the term state for a U.S. state like Utah or New York is somehow different than using the term state to define Germany or Pakistan. (Generally we are taught just to call them countries)
Australia on the other hand is taught to be a Country, and a Continent. Other places teach it under the name Oceania I believe which could confuse people. Saying New Zealand is in Australia would be both right and wrong. It is a part of the Australian continent, not a part of the country.
I’ve never heard of the continent Australia is on being called Australia. I’ve always heard and been taught that it’s Oceania here in Canada. Do people actually call it all Australia?
Everyone in the U.S. calls it Australia that I know, some other countries do as well.
Wikipedia lists it as Australia for us as well. (All textbooks did here)
The reasoning we were taught is that Continents were large land masses, which Oceania unlike the other 6, isn’t really a landmass so much, rather just the name of the tectonic plate.
Socialism is very much not covered. In general it is just equated to ML communism and nothing more. No one is educated about true libertarians. Or what anarchism actually is or other forms of communism or anything like that. Maybe that’s different now back in the '80s no and before that hell no. I sincerely hope things are better now. But I can only go by what I personally experience.
Lol good call on the /s especially in lieu of the seed of this thread. It’s pretty frightening just how willing so many are to go along with groupthink. And realistically espouse just that.
Sounds like we need to rebrand the original word “socialism” to something without the Nazi continuation. I’m thinking humanism (I’m worried that might turn into complete disrespect for any non-human form of life) or human dignitarian. I’d love to hear better versions than what I just came up with on the fly.
This isn’t true. They didn’t immediatly do a 180, instead they slowly escalated. They got in power in 1933 and the holocaust started in 1941, 8 years later.
Yes while they can be definitively left or right. It is not ultimately important to them which they are. As you said it’s all about maintaining control and power. And if they believe it would be better for them to maintain control and power. They would happily switch from capitalist to communist or vice versa. So I guess at least on an economic standpoint. Is probably most accurate to say that authoritarians are centrist. But boy won’t that piss off all the people who believe they’re centrists. It’s just that on social axis authoritarians are extreme.
The Political Compass shows that authoritarianism is on a completely different axis than the economic policy spectrum. You’re correct. I’m not sure of any true, long-lasting authoritarian left systems though, since they seem to quickly transition to cronyism oligarchies, enriching the people in power. Maybe the oligarchs don’t directly own the means of production, but using their seat of power to skim money off of the fruits of the productivity is just unfettered capitalism with extra steps.
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