Yeah, sad stuff. The concept itself seems alien to me as well after learning of it. Might have to do with how underdeveloped my country is but it feels like a generalization of experiences from specific places.
Slightly in tangent. But I think problem of finding a partner these days is that most of it now happens online, though dating apps. And they are a breeding ground of the most shallow and judgemental viewpoints in human history.
I forget the exact statistics, but according to some dating app, men swipe “yes” to like 60-something percent of the women. Women on the other hand swipe yes to like 4%. At a glance, while that does have a large disparity, you just think… Oh, women are more selective. And I think that’s fine and they should be. But problem is that all other women are selecting the same guys. So the top tier men, whether in looks, height and/or wealth are banging 100s of women. While the bottom majority of men are never getting any matches. From the woman’s perspective, every man they date is a cheater. That’s obvious, these guys have girls lined up as far as the eye can see. They have zero reason to settle with you. From majority of the men’s perspective, they never get any matches or get constantly ghosted and get angry. Majority of men don’t cheat, frankly they don’t even have the opportunity to cheat.
Men get angry at incredibly high standard of women which keep rising since women doesn’t have problem sleeping with men higher in social ladder, albeit briefly. And women get angry at incredibly high number of guys who are just there for sex and have no interest in you as a person.
In real life, you see people first, build an understanding about them and start consider dating. If you know that guy is a cheater, a woman wouldn’t pick them. A guy could go up and get to know them instead in dating app world where seemingly every woman ghosts you.
I think dating apps are ruining the “finding a partner” problem.
I feel the need to point out that at any point any of these women could decide to focus on less superficial qualities and more on personality. At some point you’re making a choice.
As a guy who struggle to date because I respect women as best I can, I sympathize with the mentality indicated, but also disagree that it is just a dating app issue.
Distilling it to a few points is, I believe, disingenuous to the very complex situation that modern dating is.
Although there is argument about the science, the book Sex at Dawn by Christopher Ryan is one of many that can help reframe the physiological and psychological background of partnering. Not insofar as it is valid, but that what we think we know is really much more under review and debatable.
Add the increase of women in the workplace, Title 9, the increase of an educated women (nay thr dominance of women in many masters and above programs), the urbanization of society, the increase of population dramatically and it’s associated demographics shift towards an increase in women, etc, etc. There is a lot going on. Which definitely includes the change of technology in reaching peers and potential dates.
Our physiology has not changed nearly as much as the knowledge base has however. Which means many things, but among other things it means that physiology can be manipulated by technology. In this, I would agree there is a basis for arguing that dating apps are interrupting the interpersonal interaction.
Having said all that, anecdotally, I will also say not using apps and meeting people is impressively challenging for all the previously normal reason dating is painful… Assuming you can find a place to meet someone compatible.
I agree with all your points. I didn’t intend to imply that dating apps are the only at fault, merely the one that came to my head after reading OPs post.
Yes BUT…there is a difference between platonic socialization and flirting/courtship. Some people can flirt naturally. Some people have to learn it. Some people can’t turn it off. Which is why blanket advice for how to treat other people isn’t particularly helpful.
So yes, most PUAs are creepy and gross. But also, for those who don’t understand flirting innately, it’s not like there are a ton of obvious reputable resources available on how to do it. And some PUAs do explain some of the key bits of psychology behind flirting. Things like tension and release, light teasing, managing eye contact, reading body language, escalating physical touch…things that you should be approaching differently if you’re trying to flirt with someone vs being friendly. Things that people expect you to do if you’re interested in them, that aren’t inherently obvious.
And I say this as an ASD guy who confused a LOT of girls in high school by not courting them like I was “supposed” to, then started doing real research in my 20s into things like body language, flirting styles, love languages, attachment styles, etc, and coming to a lot of epiphanies about how stupid I had been, and am now in my 30s reasonably successful at dating.
For those curious on some actual resources, The Definitive Book of Body Language and The Five Flirting Styles are good places to start on learning the differences between platonic and romantic socialization!___
Guys are put in a position where they have to put themselves out there and face rejection. it’s obviously becoming harder to connect with women given that a larger and larger percentage of men under 21 report being virgins every year.
Then as a result of being in this sad but common position you get told that it’s all your fault and you’re a shitty person.
I think I would have just ended up killing myself if I was a teenager today.
Virginity among women hasn’t climbed in nearly the same way, most men 21 and under also report having never been in a relationship, young men’s mental health has declined more than any other demographic, and incel culture seems to be on the rise.
Women were under the opposite pressure: to stay a virgin. Also, some people don't want to be in relationships. In middle/high school, a lot of dating was obviously performative and they were only "dating" because of social pressures to do so. I'm no longer a teen, so I have no clue what the pressures are now. It could be the pressures are still there and more people are failing to meet them (hence, the incel community). I know they're not completely gone, because I still sometimes hear about things like people dating because they want to have someone for prom or whatever.
Given how complex mental health is, trying to tie it to just one thing that correlates with it is not very convincing. Likewise, even if incel culture is on the rise, it seems much more reasonable to connect that to the growth of the internet and the niche communities it allows to fester and become visible.
There's obviously issues. I grew up in a time that pressured people into doing things like dating and having sex they didn't want. Real issue men face. Are you dismissing that issue?
I’m not saying that issue doesn’t exist, I’m saying your implication that the rise in men who have never been in relationships is a good thing is ridiculous.
First, women are in a relationship at a much higher percentage in younger age groups. The idea that women love to be in relationships but men don’t is straight up sexism on your part.
There are also huge reports of loneliness and isolation among men. There are reports of a significant minority of men being bitter about not being in relationships or having sex. It’s clearly a big deal.
You are arguing in bad faith in an attempt to dismiss a real issue men face.
You say it doesn't exist, but you promoted the anti-virgin and anti-single norms (whether you believe in them or not) and try to tie complex multifaceted issues like depression and loneliness to your single pet issue. You say I'm acting in bad faith, but I take personal issue with the ideas you are promoting incidental to your main point (which isn't something I'm really responding to at all).
A big part of this is moving everything online, it makes the available pool too wide and doesn’t allow for things to be forgotten as easily. Meeting people in person allows the awkward stuff to be forgotten and the highlights remembered. It can still go terribly wrong, but there was more meaningful interaction.
Yeah the world is super fucked up. I met almost all my previous hook ups (along with my GF) in real life.
Also according to my single friends it got infinitely worse during covid. Although I’m in my late twenties and almost everyone over thirty says it’s not super hard or anything. I don’t know if that’s a generational difference or old stereotypes are actually true.
Women had to adjust to be expected to work and do housework, still make less money per hour of labor, still represent the minority of ceos/leaders/comfy asshole billionaires, way more likely to be the ones in danger physically when picking a partner incorrectly, but go on guys about how life is so hard for you. Sounds like most of you are considerably less able to adapt than the women around you.
yeah I think the sad part to me is that it seems the majorty of the men aren’t realizing that the issue is the rich guy drank their milkshake. I’m extra angry in this comment chain, because I’m simultaneously being told in another comment that the reason men are slipping is that ‘women have too many resources’.
Men have a choice. Join with women and fight the rich, or blame women and let’s go to war.
yeah this convo got anger radiation from another similar convo about the same subject where the guys were blaming their economic woes on women much more openly. Essentially claiming that the reason boys were falling behind is that women have too much.
The tone of my responses to both threads blended and became angry due to scapegoating of women in the other thread, this thread was just men talking about their problems which I could’ve scrolled by.
but yeah anytime you see a guy claiming that ‘boys are falling behind because women have too much’ they are doing the work of the rich
So if it’s not an issue for men it shouldn’t be for women either, so why are you now complaining about having to deal with the issues you don’t think are a big deal?
here’s why I honestly think it keeps going this way:
men keep seeking symapthy for this in public, from mixed gender groups including women.
women have no reason to be sympathetic to men in this case, as they have already had it shitty and these same men didn’t care when it wasn’t their problem
some of these same men seeking sympathy are actively blaming women and saying that the fix to their problems is to go back to the 1950s, when women were routinely lobotomized for men’s convenience (the guys pitching 1950s USA always leave that bit out).
Writing off an entire gender because of the actions of some is absolutely insane. Men represent 50 percent of the population. In any other context that would be considered bigoted without a second thought.
Likewise, the idea that it’s the same men is straight up fiction. A teenager today was born in the 2000s. They have literally nothing to do with historical sexism.
Finally the “I had to suffer so it’s your turn” is beyond shitty. All that mentality is going to do is breed resentment. I’m pretty sure it already is, and alt righters are leveraging this shit to radicalize a small but increasing amount of young men.
I had issues growing up. Some of that was related to women, but a lot of that was related to social isolation in general. When I say I’d probably kill myself in growing up as a boy in today’s world, I’m not joking.
‘no sympathy from me this time, get it from other men’ does not equal ‘writing off an entire gender’.
I get that you guys think you should have instant sympathy from me for some reason because some of you are feeling slightly suicidal. Let me illustrate for you in living color why this woman is having trouble having sympathy:
when I was a teen, I attempted suicide twice
because I was dealing with a pedophile father
after moving out and getting on my feet, I was sexually assaulted by the CEO of the startup I worked, had to leave and start over again
young men don’t need to be told that ‘women are writing them off’ because we aren’t rushing to comfort them (at cost to ourselves). They need to fucking learn to adapt without women’s help, and they need to understand that women not having time to help them or be sympathetic to them anymore is a side-effect of women being fucked by the system too, not because of women ‘having too much freedom’. If they cannot admit that women don’t have some kind of ‘extra help’ and cannot stop trying to tear us down to build themselves up, they are not going to be helped by us - obviously. That’s self-preservation.
At no point did anyone in this thread ask for you to comfort men.
I made a comment saying young men had it hard. You took it upon yourself to dismiss their struggle. Then you took it upon yourself to say their struggle doesn’t matter because women have it worse and anyone who brings it up is a sexist. then you took it upon yourself to blame young men today for sexism in society that existed before you were born.
I’m asking for basic empathy towards your fellow human being. I’m wasn’t even asking for you specially to have empathy, just society in general.
I am truly sorry for what you experience. However, misfortune isn’t a competition. Just because women have it worse doesn’t mean it’s okay for men to have their own problems.
This whole comment thread is taking place in the context of a guy who is responding to a meme about creepy pua teachings (you know, the thing that causes all the abuse I suffered) with ‘whaa men have it so hard’, an I’m being called unempathetic and accused of whataboutism. Thick irony fellas.
Look I dont mean to blow your mind but misogyny ain’t new and these pua fucks have been saying the same things in different spaces for all of human history. My dads generation was ‘locker room talk’
So deal with the reality that pua beliefs are as harmful as I say they are, or deny it - I dont give a fuck anymore.
Your opinion is fine. but there’s lots of guys like trump and my dad out there that disagree with you. and they chat about peeping on kids and wanting to fuck their daughters
you’re asserting its an extreme minority but Trump’s popularity among men begs to differ. These pedophilia apologists elected the man. I would have agreed with you more before 2016. Mask off moment for american men imo.
and if you’re not american I’m sorry for assuming, thats the context Im living in and thats the context Im speaking of.
well at least thats still an actual minority, instead of a majority vote like the male side.
and yes you’re correct the older the person the more skew for trump, which goes back to my point that plenty of these old fucks heard locker room talk about peeping on young girls, and did not bat an eye
maybe you’re a young guy who is honestly underestimating the misogyny of your elders
So you’re an honest to God adult judging people under the age of 25 for things they not only had no part in, but were largely perpetuated by people who are most likely dead?
I’m an honest to god old women on the internet who has been in tech spaces since the 90s, so I have seen (and felt) the impact of these ideologies very personally, and yes I hold people over the age of 18 responsible for their own actions. If they believe in PUA bullshit then yes I judge them for it. Are you shocked?
Either you’re adults or you’re not. I can’t afford to coddle these young men anymore, it’s damaging to me and all women - and coddling them hasn’t helped.
Wake the fuck up to the fact that like, 100 rich guys are essentially slowly enslaving most of humanity, and THAT is your problem, and stop attacking women. We’re running out of time and I’m out of patience.
he can understand that I dislike misogynists, not men
how does your mom feel about you minimizing women’s problems on the internet and claiming that you know the truth about locker room talk to invalidate their lived experiences?
I’m sorry to hear that you’ve faced hardship. But if you don’t learn to feel empathy towards others, you’re going to continue to live in hate. Your continued hate towards men and men’s issues are not going to make you a better person and you will die alone. And you might be fine with that. Your pedophile father is not a men’s health issue. He’s just a shithead. Your CEO sexually assaulting you is not a men’s health issue. He’s just a shithead. Everyone dislikes them. Men and women.
Also, people are learning. The result of that learning is people learned to stop interacting with the other gender more. Men just don’t talk to women anymore on workplaces for fear of backlash. And if there are very small number of women is said workspace, they feel isolated because men don’t want to deal with potential behavior like yours. More and more people are just choosing to be single from both genders.
The fact that there is asymmetry in genders will always exist. And frankly, I don’t think there can be complete equality, I think that’s neither attainable or desirable. Are we going to start demanding 50% of construction workers need to be women too? Are we going to try to have 50% quota of people in prison be a woman? That’s insane, right? The best we can do is to empathize as much as possible with all other humans and understand both men’s issues and women’s issues. Validating a men’s issue doesn’t devalue a women’s. You are being an unempathatic whataboutist because you feel your issues are more important to you. We are not saying your problems didn’t exist nor should we not try to do our best to solve future issues of that nature. All problems should be fixed the best we can.
If you can’t empathize with men’s problems. The men who face these issues will refuse to empathize with women’s problems. That’s how relationships between any sets work. It’s a two way street. You’re working to create a segregated sets instead of trying to find the middle ground. You’re actually directly working against your own goals by being like this.
Haha, I don’t hate all men, I’m in a relationship, and you will see my usual activity on social media is moderating a laughter subreddit.
But I don’t have any empathy for men who believe that men are the main victims of PUA teachings, or that men are uniquely disadvantaged - they’re already not empathetic to me, obviously, because they are dismissing that these teachings harm women more than men. Pot calling kettle black?
And I dont agree that coddling these men helps them. They are already too far into the victimhood mindset. Thats the source of their problems, that and economic back-sliding of the working class in general. If their violence and anger solicits help from women that teaches exactly the wrong things.
Then as a result of being in this sad but common position you get told that it’s all your fault and you’re a shitty person.
My point was that the pickup artists who claim that they are helping or empowering young men are in fact not helping them to get a healthy attitude towards the other sex or enabling them to be in healthy relationships. Instead (most of) the tips of the pickup artists are in contra productive and will make you sad, angry and alone. I don’t think it’s in their interest that you get healthy relationships, because that would mean that they would loose a client.
And I also do not think it’s a good idea to suggest suicide to troubled teenagers.
I’m not suggesting suicide, I’m saying I would personally have not been able to manage as a boy in today’s world because of how fucked up this is.
The way I read it was that anyone who has trouble with women is doing something stupid like this. A lot of normal guys just don’t have a real chance these days.
Ok, so half of the pick up artists I followed in my late teens were genuine sociopaths, but the great ones were just teaching deep introverted and confused guys how to socialize with people in general.
To be honest I doubt I would be married or have such healthy friendships if I hadn’t learned some of those skills that most people seem to pick up naturally in high school.
Well, if what you’re doing isn’t working you should try something else. Try something more active than just chilling, and engage in a less male dominated community. You could volunteer your time somewhere, or join a club or team.
Your hobbies don’t even need to be mainstream, if you’re more of the nerdy persuasion there are plenty of women in the RPG and LARP scenes for example.
Imagine if guys figured out that having g decent hygiene is like 70% of it. Women like a good smelling fellow. The other 50% is just being interesting and not all murdery.
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