The top part of the meme is actually a reason I like instances that don’t defederate from other instances. It allows me to see what those I disagree with and/or just don’t like might be saying/thinking at a certain period.
Hearing other perspectives doesn’t make somebody an enlightened centrist, it makes them knowledgeable and more aware. There’s nothing wrong with gathering perspective and context before judging something, that’s what people should always do. It’s a sign of wisdom, not ignorance. You would have to be mind numbingly ignorant to actually believe that being in echo chambers is a good thing.
I used to feel that way but man, after the 20th time in a row that someone either calling for nuance or unity with questionable individuals ended up being some sort of malefactor with an evil agenda has me completely burnt on thinking that way. You just have to accept that some people are irredeemable and not worth dealing with, and replace them with those who are actually out there for your best interests.
The prevalence of the Enlightened Centrism meme shows just how many people think the world is black and white. They can’t imagine a tertiary opinion that isn’t a ridiculous compromise between 2 extremes (e.g. Let’s give gay people half of their rights) so they characterize open-minded people that way
You talk of being reasonable but posit the most unreasonable position and claim it’s as proof that others are unreasonable.
You’re completely full of shit.
Meanwhile, please show me a truly centrist path to the battle for rights. I would love to hear what a person like you sees as a reasonable outcome that somehow pleases those who deserve something unalienable and those who wish to obliterate those who fight for something unalienable.
I think you pretty fundamentally misunderstand what people mean when they say "enlightened centrist". Because it's not actually demonising having an open mind. It's referring to people who adopt a smarter-than-thou attitude while insisting that listening to bigotry is of vital importance.
I don’t think people really mean that when they say we should allow for other opinions. If the message is clearly coming from a mean spirited place you shouldn’t need to listen to that person. From what I’ve seen, bigotry often gets defined as literally any deviation from the exact list of opinions one must hold to be considered left wing. The people attacking “centrism” seem to think half the population is irredeemably evil and has nothing good to contribute to a conversation. “Centrists” to me are people from a wide range of views who decide not to be at each other’s throats and actually talk things out. To me the people who are willing to be civil (with those who are also civil and genuine about their views) are the ones making real progress instead of essentially hoping for civil wars to break out
If the message is clearly coming from a mean spirited place you shouldn’t need to listen to that person.
Except centrists say we should. All the time. As long as bigotry is dressed up in "civil" language, centrists will say that it's fair game.
I am constantly told, by centrists, that my right to exist in society is open for debate. Whether or not I can get my healthcare, or if it is criminalised, is an open question. And that's not rare, I see it almost every day, from people who think of themselves as "center".
From what I’ve seen, bigotry often gets defined as literally any deviation from the exact list of opinions one must hold to be considered left wing.
No. That's just right-wing rubbish.
There are a tiny handful of opinions deemed bigoted. It's just that the right-wing is utterly obsessed with them, and wants to talk about them all the time.
People can hold conservative and right-wing opinions about taxation or spending or foreign policy without being called bigoted. Progressives would probably disagree vehemently with them. But it's not bigotry.
The people attacking “centrism” seem to think half the population is irredeemably evil and has nothing good to contribute to a conversation.
That is you strawmanning people, if that is what you think.
“Centrists” to me are people from a wide range of views who decide not to be at each other’s throats and actually talk things out.
Talk what out? Be specific. It matters.
Again, many topics are perfectly open for debate.
People's inclusion in society as equals, is not.
To me the people who are willing to be civil (with those who are also civil and genuine about their views) are the ones making real progress instead of essentially hoping for civil wars to break out
Civil tone does not a civil idea make, is all I'd add to that.
Clearly we have both frequently seen behavior the other hasn’t. I’m not sure how to reconcile that but I know I’m not just spewing right wing rubbish or strawmanning. I just think most of the real progress is made through conversation and not mashing the “You’re a terrible person” button. If everyone thought the same way we wouldn’t need to fight for progress, but that’s not reality and so we need to choose between conversations and tribalism. You’re free to choose tribalism more often if you prefer, it probably feels better to do that and maybe in your case you need to do that. It can’t be easy to talk to people who on the surface appear to disagree with your very existence. But the people actually talking it through are not the bad guys, they’re the ones getting shit done, changing minds instead of escalating and further entrenching people in their existing views.
You’re free to choose tribalism more often if you prefer,
Oh bite me. I'm not "choosing tribalism". Direct your ire to the people slinging abuse at minorities, not at minorities who are tired of endlessly debating their own existence.
It can’t be easy to talk to people who on the surface appear to disagree with your very existence.
Not just on the surface. Don't downplay.
But the people actually talking it through are not the bad guys, they’re the ones getting shit done, changing minds instead of escalating and further entrenching people in their existing views.
Historically speaking, you are dead wrong. Societies have fallen to fascism precisely because of moderates and "centrists" making room for fascism to flourish, and impeding efforts to shut it down before it entrenches itself, because they were convinced that "civil conversation" was the only way forward.
You might feel superior to those of us actually doing the work, but you are standing in the way of actually getting things done. And you will be treated accordingly.
Well the most important thing is that you feel morally superior to other people, and create spaces that minoritised people don't feel welcome in because allowing bigots to voice their nonsense is more important than actually listening to those minoritised people.
That sounds like a strong idea. Let’s find out who disagrees with it and try to change their minds. If we get a majority to agree with that idea, maybe we can change some laws
Yeah like I said, thankless… I’m not sure how else you expect to achieve any progress with people. The type of silencing you suggest could just as easily be used against you too. “We’re right and they’re wrong, so why don’t we just take a shortcut and strongarm them?” Your counterparts on their side are saying the exact same thing so guess how that all ends
It's "thankless" because you are a complete tool. It's "thankless" because you think people's right are up for debate. Because you think it's reasonable to tell minoritised people to simply wait, probably for the rest of their lives, for their ability to participate in society as equals.
And of course it's not YOU paying the price, you just condescendingly demand other people pay the price. Because for you, it's more important that the bigots are comfortable, than minorities getting to live their lives.
If you aren't sure how else we expect to make progress, open up a damn history book. Pride was a riot.
I think literally everything is technically up for debate. Your right to exist is an example of something that should easily win over 99% of those debates. 100% of them actually if you assume any human at all has a right to exist. Do you think a majority can’t possibly arrive at the conclusion that you deserve to exist?
I’m not saying you can talk it out with everyone, but I would reserve tribalism for when all else fails because not everyone is intentionally cackling and twirling their mustache
Your right to exist is an example of something that should easily win over 99% of those debates. 100% of them actually if you assume any human at all has a right to exist.
... I'm saying that the life I'm currently living, and the lives of my friends, and materially worse precisely because there are a lot of people who do not think we deserve to exist.
You make it sound like this trivially simple process. That all we have to do is have these discussions and we'll come out with a positive result. That we just need to go out there, and we'll change hearts and minds, and we'll all live happily ever after.
What world are you living in? Pull your head out of your arse.
We've been having these same discussions for decades at least. We've had genocides and fought wars over these ideas that you think we should just "change people's minds" about.
And you keep disregarding what I'm saying, and ignoring that your approach objectively doesn't work, and ignoring that it only serves to alienate the people you are insisting you are allied with. People like you are the reason so many minorised people hate centrists. You are the exact type of moderate MLK Jr. expressed disappointment over in his letter from a Birmingham jail.
But this interaction has been what I have come to expect from an "enlightened" centrist. It's The Cost of Doing Business.
Your point is moronic. You guys think you’re being reasonable and finding the middle when all that’s happening is you’re being pipelined into fascism with some extra steps.
The only people that I have ever seen bitch and moan about centrists are Marxists… Who are just as ignorant, violent, hateful, extreme, delusional, and brain dead as their Fascist friends. I’ll take a centrist any day of the week over a Marxist or a Fascist
yeah, im this 🤏 close to unsubscribing from any news related communities. the comments are mostly repetitive circle-jerks and antagonistic in-fighting. it’s really affecting my time on here.
With how unnecessary it is sometimes to be in the office with teleworking and losing my time commuting, that would be a way for employers to think twice before asking someone to come in, and give some kind of compensation to those who can’t work from home.
Personally I don’t think that companies should be responsible for taking care of people… because that’s the governments responsibility. We are rapidly approaching a situation where people will be automated out of work faster than we can invent new arbitrary things for them to do. UBI is inevitable it’s just a question of when and how
I mean. Both of those things seem like pretty reasonable positions to discuss. They way you write that seems to imply that rent and work are simply facts of life, but they don't have to be. Or at the very least, they could look a lot different to how they do now.
Rent is an economic concept that doesn't have to exist. In fact it's not hard to make the economic argument that it should not exist. Rent-seeking is generally considered a bad thing, because it removes value from a system.
Work is harder to get away from. But there's no reason work has to look like how employment does today. And there's a productive discussion around how much work is reasonable, especially as automation continues to advance.
My favourite part of Lemmy is seeing enlightened centrists posting to Lemmy.ml thinking it’ll be sympathetic to any other ideology than socialism/communism.
How dare the public not want to hear about us stripping the rights of gays, and trans people? ECHO CHAMBER! I JUST WANT CIVIL DISCUSSION ABOUT HOW BLACK PEOPLE ARE NOTHING BUT THUGS AND RAPISTS AND THEY SHOULD GO BACK TO AFRICA.
How about no dude? Go back to Truth Social and rant there. Nobody wants to hear about your eugenics, how a female comic artist hurts your browsing experience and you're too contrarian not to spew misogynist rhetoric.
Progressives and most real moderates know better now. It's all bad-faith arguments and dog whistles. The paradox of tolerance is real and people need to stop platforming insanity.
That's what you plan to do on the internet all day? Just use buzzwords without understanding what they actually mean lol? Or do you genuinely believe that isn't the root of most right wing estranged, convoluted, self-deceptive arguments? Because the Republicans being elected have been saying the quiet part out loud for almost 8 years now.
Gish gallop! Fallacy fallacy! Sealioning!!! And no, citing multiple sources is not gish gallop. I've been hit with that accusation in a personal chat recently too lol.
Ehm… calm down, friend. You are reading quite a bunch into my post. It is exactly this stupid finger-pointing of 18-year old know-it-alls that ruins lemmy.
God nothing is more annoying than brain damaged American progressives who think they’re intellectuals. Even if we ignore your strawman, the very idea that there are people who are close minded enough to actually actively refuse to even be exposed to any ideas that they might dislike or disagree with is insane. Keep in mind, the tolerance paradox says that intolerant ideas shouldn’t be tolerated, it doesn’t say that you should go full 1984 censoring and controlling information and turning authoritarian on anything you deem intolerant. The whole point of the paradox is to demonstrate that if a society wants to remain free and democratic, then it needs to oppose intolerance and authoritarianism in all its forms… via democratic processes. Otherwise, it’s another society that has become corrupted. The principles of liberty and democracy, as well as their universality, should never be abandoned.
I hate you. I despise you so deeply that I will use all my capital to move the democratic process. I am going to use the freedom you have given me to manipulate everyone into thinking you are the scum of the earth, unworthy of existence. I will demonize your actions on every turn. I will destroy you, your culture, and your very existentce. I just have to yell it long and hard enough and people will flock to my voice that I have been given on your platforms. And you will do nothing about it, even when you manage to expose my lies. It is you that is the cause of all our problems we face. Soon enough people just repeat what I say and believe me over anything you might utter. I have just convinced people of what you truly are. And their vote will sign your death warrant.
My point still stands. You can’t use hate, ignorance, and authoritarianism to defeat hate, ignorance, and authoritarianism. The only thing that will end up happening is you turning hateful, ignorant, and authoritarian. We have already seen this happen time and time again. It’s time for people to learn from history for once instead of just repeating it. Censorship NEVER works, authoritarianism NEVER works. The very reason why the people you described ever get into power is because of people like you who fall into a brainless cycle of purity tests, arrogance, and exploitation of power. You want to see bigots stop being bigots? Try talking to them. Not talk down to them, not convince them of anything, just try to understand why they think the way they do, how they came to be, and how they perceive the world. By understanding them you can find some common ground and from there you can introduce to them alternative ideas like tolerance, justice, coexistence, and peace. You can’t ban bigots, you can’t censor them, you can’t genocide them, and no amount of power abused will make them go away. Talking them is the only way. Keep mind talking to them isn’t a sign of weakness or a concession. Virtue signaling means fuck all when it makes things worse. Talking to people, having them exposed to new ideas and views, and treating people you don’t like (even if they’re vile) as humans is how a black man in the US managed to convince dozens of KKK klansmen into giving up their robes.
Because those people who gave up their robes saw that they were misguided and were open to new ideas. But some still have kept their hearts closed because some are just unwilling to have their convictions changed. KKK is still a thing, after all that talking. Raceism is still an issue, even when we tried giving them space.
Sometimes it is more than misguidence. Sometimes people just hate, and grudge. And when these people are given power they are able to spread their hate and misguide once more. And then we might have another Nazi Germany, where it will take a war to have it corrected. We didn’t get the Nazi’s to stop with just words. Are we able to have China stop doing it now, with just words? Are words helping in Palestina?
And in this day and age of the internet, even when we show those people the world that they can access. Show them how misguided their hatred is. They still choose to hate.
These words I wrote are in their hearts. Outside they tell sweet veiled words like ‘we must protect our children’ and ‘they are taking your jobs’. They will convince people against all facts, that the others chose this. That something genetic, is chosen. Never will they tell in those clear words what they truly want, because any sane moral person would see it for what it is.
At some point they manage to convince their followers that they are the truth, that anyone trying to guide them away to sanity is lying to them. And then the cycle completes and new unchangable hate-ist is born to spread the infection. See anti-vaxxers, see Q, see any conspiracy group that convinces their members everyone else is lying.
So, would you rather have a tyranny where people are allowed to just be. But where ideas of raceism and exclusion is censored.
Or a tyranny of the hateful that will one day knock on your door for telling the lies of inclusion?
Food isn’t expensive if you buy chicken/pork on sale
Corpo greed / cost cutting / layoffs is driven by ruthless consumer demand for cheaper products over all else. Rather than pointing to faceless organizations looking for a boogieman, people should look in a mirror.
Elections are won by voting
On some self reflection, #3 and #4 is pretty closely related. Something something no margin for small farmers I think. Ah well, everyone’s a hypocrite - including me.
Liking cars is one thing, but we should not be designing our lives around cars. The more we cater for cars, the worse our living conditions get. The more we treat cars as the primary and required method of transport, the worse our society becomes.
And 4. Individual action alone is simply just ineffective at solving the problems. Focusing on individuals rather than systemic change is the same as doing nothing. If we want to change behaviour, we have to change incentives.
I’m saying “individual” action is the problem. When an “individual” buys bottled water, or buys some cheap shit from Temu which will break in 2 days, or throws cardboard in the trash instead of recycling, everything becomes just a little bit worse.
It’s not an individual. Every time you see that word, you can safely multiply it by a couple hundred million and see the actual almost-daily effect of what an “individual” does. A billionaire flying one leg of a private flight 10 miles? Who fucking cares compared to the bigger picture?
Whenever I see conversations like this, I have to wonder, what is your goal? Are you trying to solve the problem? Or are you trying to find someone to blame?
Because if it's the latter, then go ahead blame individuals all you like. It's overly simplistic and ignores the fact that people's behaviour is shaped by the systems they live under. It's also completely and utterly useless at actually solving the problem. But by all means, you can waste your time as much as you like, just don't expect people who actually want to affect change to waste their time humouring such stupidity.
Not sure if you’re actually trying to understand what I wrote, but I’m not trying to find someone to blame - I’ve already found them. I’m not trying to effect change - I’d become a politician or teacher if I wanted to do that. These are just observations.
And it’s interesting that “people who actually want to affect change” wouldn’t want to try to tackle the actual problems. I guess it’s easier to point to single-target big bad entities rather than a more vague entity like…everyone. Also it is easier to pretend people don’t have agency, isn’t it?
I’m not trying to find someone to blame - I’ve already found them.
... Please consider being a serious person.
And it’s interesting that “people who actually want to affect change” wouldn’t want to try to tackle the actual problems.
Wagging your finger at individuals is never, ever going to solve the problem.
Identifying systemic changes, and advocating for them politically, will.
I guess it’s easier to point to single-target big bad entities rather than a more vague entity like…everyone.
Again. You are focusing on blame and pointing fingers. Nobody cares who you want to blame.
Also it is easier to pretend people don’t have agency, isn’t it?
Nowhere has I said that people don't have agency. I said that people's behaviour is shaped by the systems they live under, which is a trivially true observation.
So if we want to effect change on a scale large enough to actually make a difference, we will focus on systemic changes.
10/10 times somebody seethes at the idea of merely listening to ideas that they might dislike or disagree with is some extremist whacko who gets all their information from a heavily vetted and censored echo chambers.
It literally doesn’t matter. Blocking yourself off from any ideas, no matter how tame or how extreme is something that’s both sad and dangerous. Willful ignorance is a poison. It’s not a sign of purity or strength, it’s a sign of fear and weakness.
Nah, sod off. We've fought wars over some of these "ideas". We don't need to rehash them until the end of time. We hear more diverse ideas from the diverse people who are allowed to thrive by removing a tiny handful of bigoted opinions.
Why do you want to silence those diverse people and their varied opinions? Are you scared of their ideas? Are you a weak little coward?
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