They’ve done actual studies that show these protests are counter productive, blindly supporting anything just because they claim to support your cause is incredibly dumb.
In this world there are a huge amount of people who really, really, really like attention and will insert themselves into anything to try and get it, they’ll use any excuse to ‘boost their profile’ especially if they can pretend to be some form of hero along the way.
The idiot who got shot in the capitol and the idiot who threw soup on the painting are the same unthinking attention seeking type of idiot, the right pretend they’re breaking into the capitol to save children, the left try to ruin people’s day in the name of climate change - then on their respective sides a whole host of idiots cheer and say ‘I’m supporting these brave activists so I’m not part of the problem, I can continue to live my life exactly as I chose - safe in the knowledge that cheering on these idiots is enough’
If you believe there is anything you can do about this. Then you are naive. There are almost eight billion of us. We have an immense industry. People not worrying about things like that is normal. Because they are to busy feeding there children. Trying to live a little. Also why do people think that you can stop climate change. The dice has been rolled. Alea iacta est.
Dude. The world is being killed and the people killing it have names and addresses. This is not a untouchable force of nature causing our homes to flood and burn while the ecosystems that allow us to farm collapse.
You have agency. Get angry, channel it and get active.
Yes but also wise up - we’re not the same as Exxon Mobil or Rio Tinto. We individually need to make our changes, absolutely - but they won’t unless we force them to do so and they dwarf us in output to an inhuman degree.
Simply - we need to stop their machines in a very literal sense. They’ve already shown that dialogue and scientific reasoning is an utterly useless vehicle for change in the face of their organisations - so we need to start speaking in languages they understand. Remove their ability to function. Direct action is the answer to the question.
It has become fashionable for some to take a defeatist condescending stance like this when it comes to issues that affect everyone. If you think it makes you look smart, it doesn’t. These are pressing issues and people have to take action. If you don’t want to, go ahead and disappear. But don’t talk down to those who are and those who are calling for it.
If you’re waiting around for someone with more power than it takes to stand in a road with a sign to do anything, you will be waiting until your dying day.
Which, to be clear, is exactly what I expect will happen. Impeding society is seen as worse than destroying society, so inaction will destroy society. Because on the other side of inaction by the working class, is the massive (and massively destructive) action that we currently facilitate. Which means we are the problem, and our only choice is whether to also be a part of the solution. The solution being the mobilization of the working class. Which naturally takes the form of small actions against system (like blocking traffic and doing PR stunts) when numbers are still small because that is exactly what the working class is capable of doing.
I’m sure I’ve already triggered enough lemmies so I’ll go ahead and add, that non-activists calling for activists to destroy infrastructure are not wrong - but they are harmful, not helpful. If they believe in the statement and if this is their true criticism of activists, then those individuals would become activists following their own ideas of what works. But people who are actually activists understand the enormous challenges in such a task while living in a modern security state, and more importantly that the culture is still too non-activist and anti-activist for these actions to catch on meaningfully. Society does not see itself as the problem here. The truth is that the people crying about traffic would be crying significantly more if their consumerism is in the slightest way impaired. They only want to be against the problem, without actually be against the problem.
I hope you all understand what this means mechanistically even if you disagree about where I place my values and judgment: Our families will all be coming to an untimely end. Those of us who are still alive when the cascades begin, will die. If you’re my age and nothing takes you out early, you will die due to climate change caused by our industrial society. If you’re rich you might live a few extra years and die in a bunker.
If the working class at large were willing to choose degrowth, as individuals have, then they could do something.
With a critical mass other types of action would also become more feasible, as I touched on.
I stand by the thesis that they won’t mobilize, but that if they were to do so then they would be able to make a difference. Even if they only destroyed infrastructure in a failed rebellion.
No, you literally can’t. Energy demands are only going to increase. The energy output for the land required, for a nuclear plant, is far better overall compared to the area required for wind and solar to match it.
You should look again how much can be generated with non-recycled and non-breeded uranium.
If we keep insist only proven designs can be produced, we are for in for a short lived transition that won’t last even for the normal lifetime of a reactor. If we stop insisting on proven designs, we are in for discovering some weird new failure mode here and there.
It will still probably be much safer than coal, but nuclear is either extremely limited or way more dangerous than the number indicate.
Lmao yeah man. Nuclear isn’t sustainable when you remove and ignore one of the most important aspects of it. If we account for breeder reactors we can power humanity for billions of years
The area required for enough wind and solar is still small enough to not be an issue. That nuclear needs less space per amount of energy produced does not matter
Any space saved is space for untouched environment, which is more beneficial to the planet. You’re using Chinese logic, which lead to mountains blanketed with solar panels. There will be consequences for such decisions down the road.
The space saved is so miniscule compared to theobvious benefits (way cheaper, quicker and easier construction than nuclear, no problem with long term storage of waste products) that it is an absolute no brainer. Also, it's not like windparks are on fields of asphalt.
Absolutely not. 100+ acres vs 3,000+ acres is anything but miniscule. I suggest you do a little research on the discussion you’re attempting to take part in.
See, you’re talking like 3000+ acres is a lot on the global scale, and it just isn’t. You could literally cover a few fields that grow better in indirect light, produce more from your crops, and supply the global requirements for electricity. Seriously, just 5 square miles is over 3000 acres.
The only good argument against solar or wind is matching load against production, and that one is becoming less relevant all the time.
Compared to a hundred acres? Meaning the other 2,900 acres could be preserved in some form of natural state? That absolutely is a lot when you consider the energy needs of a modern country. The fact you’re acting like that’s not a valid argument just proves how ignorant you are.
Growing crops under a solar array does not justify your inability to comprehend land size/use. Corn? Fine, that works with indirect. Soy and rice do not though. So 2 of the 3 most widely grown crops would be hindered by that plan.
So instead of destroying major crops with the ridiculous idea of building thousands of acres of solar panels, or tens of thousands of acres of wind turbines, we should focus on the much smaller impact of nuclear energy.
You keep coming back to that one single argument you seem to have with space requirements, which several people have explained to be ridiculous, and you just keep repeating it? Do you have any idea about the scale of a country vs that of a solar park?
Because that was the discussion, the amount of energy produced by nuclear vs other clean means and the amount of area dedicated for each to produce the same.
There are very few ignorantly disagreeing with this easy to prove fact, you being one of them. I do understand scale of a country, and the space required to power it via reactors saves hundreds of thousands of acres when compared to solar and wind.
Go Google the required acreage for each and educate yourself. You’re the one being ridiculous by attempting to call me out for “one single argument” and then continuing to prove you have no real concept of size and scale.
The discussion is not whether solar needs more space per energy produced, (and it does, nobody is disputing that), the discussion is if the area difference is relevant in the first place. And there have points been made why it is not, namely:
You can cover area that is not natural anyways: parking lots, rooftops, farmland that does not need strong direct sunlight
There is so much space in a country compared to that needed for solar that or just does not matter. Obviously you don't go and remove forests to put solar panels there
Plenty of space isn't arable in the first place, so what's the point of not putting solar there? Protecting the sensitive desert?
@GreyEyedGhost even gave you an actually ok argument against wind/solar, maybe try that one?
Wow, I just can’t wrap my head around how many things you can get wrong, all at one time. You do realize that not all crops are the same, right? As I said in my previous post, there are plenty of crops (including pastureland) that do better with less direct light. And there are 1 million square miles of farmland in the U.S. right now. If 2% of that was covered with solar, and nowhere else, that could supply America’s electricity needs. Of course, this ignores all the great options for solar in urban areas, such as rooftops and parking lots. I haven’t heard many people complaining that they couldn’t park their car in an uncovered parking space at the mall.
Notice that this doesn’t require any new land to be developed, so rather than the pie in the sky idea that 100 acres of nuclear equates to the realized opportunity to return or keep 2900 acres in a natural state, it means 3000 acres of solar in areas that are already developed, so we can leave that 100 acres of undeveloped land in its previous state.
There is certainly a place for nuclear, especially until we have an effective means of power storage, but at the expense of solar, one of the cheapest electricity solutions we have right now, is probably not it.
You can’t wrap your head around it because you simply don’t want to. Of course I didn’t mention every single potential crop. I mentioned the three most widely grown, around the entire world. Corn, rice, and soy. Yes, others would do well, but building above these crops would never work on large agricultural areas. Why? Because you need machinery to harvest large grow ops before they spoil. Farmers would never afford the human labor required to match. It will work great on smaller scale farms, people using upwards of 25 acres. What does that achieve power wise though by comparison? Not enough power.
Pastures are an issue for two reasons. One, grass needs direct sunlight to properly grow. Two, animal agriculture is a major cause of carbon emissions. We need less pastureland, and covering it doesn’t help. You could convert existing pastureland into a reactor site, saving existing nature from development.
You would still need to develop new land for larger arrays. Land use that could be minimized by maximizing the possible power output.
You can. With nuclear as the baseline. Infinitely (not literally) more clean than fossil fuels and way, WAY more safe even including Chornobyl in the stats.
Eh, it honestly depends on what the climate protestors are doing. If they’re chaining themselves to people’s cars, painting aeroplanes with toxic paint (so the company has to use toxic chemicals to remove it), or glue themselves to the autobahn, then they’re honestly just making a mockery out of climate activism.
Moira who can’t get to work because some cunt chained themselves to her wheel isn’t going to become an ally when she gets scolded by her shitty boss for being late due to something she can’t control. She needs to pay her landlords mortgage and put food on the table for her kids. Her old car might not be the most environmentally friendly but it might be the only option she has.
Most people do care, but don’t have the time or capacity to do shit about it. If you have the time and energy to fuck over Duncan on his way to his shitty second job so he can pay for his mortgage and his student loans, you have time to fuck over the people that have the power to help you actually make a change.
As far as the ones in Germany go, largely they don’t seem to be. They are really that stupid. Even when they try to target the right people they fuck it up. It is fun to watch however. Some hilarious stories and little to no success have come out of it.
I’ve spent enough time around wannabe revolutionaries to think most of those people are honest and really believe impeding some poor people from going to work will help make the masses adopt their cause.
It does help their belief system that they and most of the people around them were convinced by some asshole doing something similar.
I’m sorry, how are they getting their hands on toxic paint? Are are they making it themselves? If it’s the later then they have really just undone the entire of their “point”.
Eh, lynching the big suits in the oil industry is fine by me.
Make them scared to leave their homes if they want to sacrifice everything for their own profits.
The way things are going, there will come a day when we regret we didn’t become violent against them while there was still time to stop climate change.
Diversity of tactics. There’s no point in pissing on other people’s praxis when you have the capacity and space to organise your own.
Want harder action? Find a pipeline. Blockade a port.
Want to educate people about actions and how to get involved? Organise a street march and equip people with rhetoric to help turn the tide against fossil fuel astroturfing.
We get it, you care as long as your selfish ass isn’t inconvenienced. I so love a society that pretends to care oh so much about democracy and the average person supposedly being able to change things and then being so angry about then being the target of protests when they don’t take the actions to change things.
You think they don’t know, or don’t care? They can’t do shit about it because individual people aren’t the root of the problem. “Inconveniencing” someone by potentially costing them their livelihood and home isn’t going to win you any support.
Their centrist pearl clutching hasn’t done anything so far so why make yourself smaller to appease someone who won’t help anyway? Sorry - get real about the stakes or get aside.
Yeah so go lop some politicians and CEOs heads off and put them on stakes outside of parliament and such. Those are the people with the power to enact change, and they’re all too happy to see you fuck with people who can do fuck all instead of them.
“inconvenience me and I might murder you with my car” I hope you’re getting a lot of money from the oil tycoons in exchange for being one of their brownshirts
You’re asking them to protest at places where you evidently haven’t noticed the protests all these years, because you haven’t shown up. You’re not going to show up. I don’t think even you believe you’re going to show up.
But you do seem to notice the protests you can’t ignore. There’s only one way you can make those stop.
Murdering the civilization by knowingly and willingly create conditions for climate change: normal behaviour, good, commendable.
Public non-violent protests against that: extremism, bad, scary.
Add comment