Right, but is it just residual? This topic is interesting but mostly in a historical way now. Of course if you want drama, there’s always drama to be found.
Wooow, 180 seconds (which probably won’t even get to timeout) when shutting down my computer. My life is ruined forever because I had to wait sooooo much. /sarc
Tell that to my laptop when I’m at the airport and boarding.
It’s the same with windows - push power button, “Windows is installing some updates, do not turn off y…” (screen goes blank from the forced shutdown as I continue to hold the power button)
If I’m turning off my computer, I’m turning it off for a reason. Any delay gets in the way of my reason nearly 100 percent of the time.
Nope. Not when my laptop is connected to my monitors/dock at home. The screen locks, the monitors time out and power off, everything else remains on/dormant. When travelling with it, it just hibernates.
If I had a desktop PC and it had fans/etc I would probably hibernate it rather than shut it down. As I understand it windows tends to do this by default these days as well.
Apologies, I will literally never be able to relate to this entire line of thinking. If I’m at an airport and it’s close to boarding time, my laptop has already been shut down ten minutes ago because when I first hear the announcement I see that as ‘computer time is over’ and consider this just generally the smart thing to do (… And you can just hibernate or disable wifi/bluetooth and leave the thing on anyway)
Generally if I’m turning off my computer I understand that as something that could take a minute or three because a small wait is not this huge dramatic thing y’all make it out to be.
It’s not a dramatic thing for me personally. 90 percent of the time my laptop politely sleeps when I ask it to, the remaining 10 percent of the time it’s going to sleep regardless of its opinion on the matter.
Small edit: I have sometimes been the unlucky recipient of a bundle of windows updates that that 15-20 minutes to complete. One thing about Linux distros, they don’t pull that kind of stunt in shutdown.
And lucky you to be able to not have any last minute things to deal with at the airport that get foisted upon you by clients / coworkers. Computer time is never over.
Would be nice, but it (that is, windows in this case) won’t go to standby because by the time you get to the shutdown/update stage, power management is shut off.
Instead it turns into a lovely mini furnace in its pocket in my travel bag until windows deems that it has finished.
Edit: and that’s what I find alarming. Once , I just hit the power button and closed my laptop and got on the plane, and about 15 minutes later I went to get something from my bag in the overhead compartment before we took off. Holy shit, was my laptop hot, and it was 70 percent through an update. Presumably it was throttling due to heat and the throttling was making the updates even slower so it was a vicious cycle.
Everything everybody else said plus everything with Systemd is just… more complex. With OpenRC, it felt like I could keep all the information I needed to use and administrate it in my head. With Systemd, I have to look stuff up all the time.
Binary logs are annoying, but once you get the hang of journalctl, it’s not so bad. That is about my only remaining hate for it.
In its early days, it was a serious pain. Its service management was annoying and is still a bit scattered to this day. It has improved a ton, for sure.
Above all else, it was kinda forced on us. Most of us were comfortable with sysv already. If I remember correctly, people often said the main dev for systemd could be a real jackass. I have no judgement or experience regarding that though.
Above all else, it was kinda forced on us. Most of us were comfortable with sysv already.
And at least for me it solved a problem which didn’t exist. Sure, there’s some advantages, but when it rolled out it was a huge pain in the rear and caused various problems and made things more complicated for no apparent reason.
Most of the bolted on services are rather shitty. ResolveD in particular is straight up hot garbage unless the only thing you are comparing it to is nscd. I like shipping all my logs to a centralized service and journald just gets in the way. It feels like they took upstart, bolted on some really crappy daemons,
Does it really matter if you can’t use those independent binaries with any other init system? If you want to use systemd, you pretty much have to take the whole ecosystem.
You just compared a browser extension and an init system that takes proc id 1. The unix philosophy is about what runs as processes at the system level.
The unix philosophy is about what runs as processes at the system level.
I don’t know what you mean by “system level” (cat is userspace) but I don’t believe there is any clarification about what kind of applications should apply to the unix philosophy or not. It doesn’t say that applications “should do one thing and do it well only if it is a system process or terminal based program built for purely shell environments.”
Also, if the argument was exclusively about OS processes, dbus should be in the firing line of everyone in the anti-systemd camp too. That never gets the same level of hate.
The unix philosophy is old and, while nice to have, is insufficient to fully address the needs of the modern world. It’s not as simple today as it was in the 1960s and 70s and we need to embrace change to progress.
I’m honestly not sure what you’re talking about here. The unix philosophy is something informal that applies to compiled utilities that run usually in a bin/ directory. The philosophy isn’t attempting to apply to all software that exists and certainly doesn’t intend to apply to browsers or browser extensions.
You just compared a browser extension and an init system that takes proc id 1. The unix philosophy is about what runs as processes at the system level.
Btw. The Linux kernel does more than one thing. But monolithic kernels are much better for small student projects that won’t be relevant anymore, when Gnu Hurd comes out
Monolithic kernels are also generally more performant, compared to micro-kernels, it turns out. A bit counter-intuitive at first but, makes sense when you think about it.
Micro-kernels in general-purpose OSes suffer from a death of a thousand cuts due to context switching. Something that would be a single callback to the kernel in a monolith turns into a mess of calls bouncing between kernel and user space. When using something like an RTOS where hardware is not likely intended for general-purpose computing, this is not an issue but, when you start adding all of the complexity of user-installable applications that need storage, graphics, inputs, etc, the number of calls gets huge.
Do scripts in /usr/lib/systemd/system-sleep/ not block? I’ve never had one fail to complete before suspend. I had to use one last year to dump debug stats before and after sleep while we were helping debug Cezanne sleep issues.
I guess not because in my attempts to get this working I did put a script there. Does * expansion not work in these scripts? Mind sharing your script if you still have one? I have 3 tabs open to learn systemd when I have time, I did watch a video so far :)
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