A friend of mine got his son to use Linux by just not providing an alternative, he installed Debian edu (don’t know if that’s the name, but basically a Debian spin for kids with parental restrictions and stuff) on an old laptop for him and that’s what he used. Once he got his own PC it was over though since he wanted to play Fortnite so bad that he bought windows for that. He still dual boots Fedora, but I don’t think he has used it since the windows partition is there.
I think the thing is you can’t really get kids (or people in general for that matter) into Linux the way you are probably into it and interested in it. At least not if they’re not already interested in it on their own. They will learn how to use it sure, but not the way we’re used to using Linux, understanding the intricacies of the system, keeping the system safe,… They’ll probably find a way to do what they already do on windows and ignore that the OS is different.
IMO, his aproach was too strict, that’s why it failed and just caused repulsion towards Linux. There are other ways you can “make” children like things.
I don’t think this was too strict, maybe I made it sound that way, but it was not like he forbid him using windows, it was just that he’s using Linux, his son got his old laptop that was running Linux and they didn’t have a windows license, so his son was running Linux as well. He’s also doing fine on Linux and doesn’t dislike it or anything, the only “problem” was that he wanted to play Fortnite which does not work on Linux. He’s also getting along fine with Linux, especially on fedora where he doesn’t need the Terminal.
What I wanted to say with that comment is that you can’t make your kids to learn and use Linux like most of us probably do. For most people an operating system is still just some black magic on their computer that makes the browser or their games run, they don’t care how it works or if it is secure or using the latest software. Most people just don’t know and don’t care what an OS even is and the same thing goes for kids imo
Oh, that’s different then… I thought his dad was like “run Debian, or you’re grounded”, lol 😂.
I agree on the last part, that is most definitely true. You can try, but you can’t force it 🤷. After all, his/hers gifts may lay in another field, not tech 😉.
You can only teach someone Linux if they have a desire to learn it. If they don’t want to learn it, then they might learn that it’s “bad” or “weird” compared to mainstream OSes, which would be working backwards.
My favourite “lesson” I ever gave was in a grade 9 technology class. It was a pretty small class, about 10 kids. I split them up into two teams and made a competition. They chose their own teams — it ended up being boys vs girls. I never would have made it that way on my own but that’s how it worked out.
The school had a bunch of old, decommissioned PCs that were headed to the junk yard. I sorted through all of them to get two exact sets of working parts for the competition.
The goal of the competition was to recover a jpeg from one of the hard drives. Each team had a computer with the ram removed and two hard drives. One was blank and the other had the jpeg on it. They also had a Linux Mint installer on a usb stick.
I don’t remember exactly how I had set it up but it was points based, something about getting to different stages first. Like 5 points to be the team that turns the computer on first. One of the big ones was that they got an extra 10 points if they did the whole thing without a mouse.
I told the other classes about the competition and asked some other teachers if it would be okay for them to watch and cheer on. It ended up being the nerdiest and most exciting class ever. Students were literally cheering each team through a Linux install. One team got stuck and had to pull out the mouse. There was booing. It was so epic.
The girls won, being the first to recover the jpeg and they did it all without a mouse. It was so awesome. The jpeg was the meme about how would a dog wear pants.
It was about 5 years ago, my first year teaching. I really miss those days. I only teach math now, and while I like that, there was something magical about showing kids how fun computers can be.
Out of curiosity, how much had you already taught them about the tasks? Was it just expected that between the whole team there would be someone who knew this stuff?
If I recall correctly I didn’t tell them much about anything. One of them had a nerd dad who set up his daughter with Linux at home but she wasn’t familiar with the install process. I gave them some basic info when I gave them the rules (you have to connect the hard drives and ram) but for the most part everything was new to them.
On the other hand, I also ran a computer club with some other kids (in a younger grade) where we took that pile of broken computers and salvaged working parts. We ended up with 3 or 4 working pcs that we ran Linux mint on. They used the computers for Roblox or something at lunch lol. The computers ended up being a popular attraction at lunch!
@maxprime my technology teacher in middle school did something similar with me and a bunch of other kids in 1995 or so. That's how I fixed my first pc, and eventually started a career in IT. There was no team competition, but he basicallt said "these are some broken computers, if you can fix them you can have a lab to play Doom or whatever you want. He helped us setting up the IPX network tbf, but we had to check what dimm banks were working, which not, same with hdd and processors, and put togheter everything and install Windows 3.11
Yeah I had formatted and partitioned the disk ahead of time. The JPEG was in the root directory IIRC. I warned them to not plug in both hard drives during the install process to be sure not to overwrite the wrong drive. They were labelled physically but were otherwise identical.
@maxprime@nayminlwin what an amazing story. I love that this could be gamified for them and made more fun. I presume you had a guide or helped them when they got stuck?
I had some of my classes (14-15yr olds) assemble their own computers as the first class. It was cheap junk anyway, and I was willing to risk it, but it set the stage for the year. I dont think I got them to install system on it (whole school run on Linux btw), thats a great touch. And making it into something that entertaining, and stereotypes breaking is brilliant!
If i were to become a teacher in the future (unlikely, but not impossible), i'd hope to be just as caring and enjoying the craft as you are. Keep it up! ☺️
Probably to play games, access the internet and maybe do their homework. Most probably, they don’t use Windows because they specifically enjoy working with Windows, but because it easily lets them do whatever they actually want to do on a PC.
Spending 5h on fixing some weird incompatibility between the Nvidia GPU, your DE and Proton might be fun for some, but it’s most probably not what your kid wants to do when they could be gaming or doing whatever they actually want to do. Problems like that can scare them off quickly.
So first setup the PC so that everything they usually do on Windows works without issues.
The next question is, why would your kid want to run Linux instead of Windows?
The usual advantages (FOSS, free to use, better for developers) don’t really matter to most kids. The only things I can think of right now are:
Runs on PCs that aren’t Win11 compatible
Some games like Minecraft run faster (but some games also run slower)
With the setup completed and advantages thought of, you can let the kid use Linux quite similarly to Windows. When the kid wants new software or has an issue, work together with them to get everything running. First do everything and let them watch, later let them do more and more of the process.
Awesome question. And good advice here. To add something: Don’t just give them games. Hook up an old printer, install LibreOffice plus the openclipart images. Kids can make everything into a game. We used to play with my dad’s old pc and imagined being private investigators and had our own little office. We printed out lots of silly stuff and took notes on the computer. There are a few ‘learn typing on a keyboard’ games, but back then I didn’t have fun with them.
Maybe they like drawing, install TuxPaint, Krita. Or video editing or recording stuff, give them a webcam/phone and Kdenlive. Have them do a spoof on a movie or do their own Lego stop-motion film. Or they like to make music, install Audacity’s sucessor, LMMS, a drum sequencer …
And of course the whole kids-education metapackage if your distribution has one. So they can program little turtles and start coding with Python. You can do this at age 8, depending on the kids personality.
It works best if it’s tied somehow into their lives. For example (occasionally) printing homework assignments, a stop-motion suite if they play a lot with Lego anyways…
Other than that, my boy scout education tells me to “look at the boy”. Have them explore and see that they like. Assist and teach them how to operate the software they want to use. Help them once they get stuck or can’t figure something out on their own. You will have to guide them and show how they can achieve the results they want, so they stay motivated.
Give them background knowledge and tell them the 'why’s. Why something is the way it is. I’d say that is the point where we get to Linux. At age 10 or so, you don’t necessarily care about an operating system. But you’re curious and happy to learn why there are different ones and why they behave differently and the story behind that. And the thing that hooks you is the possibilities and usefulness for your life. So that’s why I recommend installing lots of useful (to kids) software.
And maybe give them a chat / instant-messenger program. So they can contact you and ask questions.
As it is with teaching generally, it heavily depends on how you do it. Kids are very curious by default. In my experience: “Look at the boy” has served me well. Kids come in a wide variety. Don’t teach them top-down but find a mix of letting them explore and roam, but also make sure to teach them the basics first. And guide them how to apply things to their life and find use-cases and the fun in it. If you pay attention to them, you can adjust your own behaviour.
This is also how I got hooked to computers as a kid as well. The problem nowadays though is the internet and easy access to addictive internet services and games. Back then, you’re stuck with what’s on your PC and somehow have to make the most out of it.
Mmh. Sure, I don’t have kids so I probably lack some experience in how it is today.
I’m not sure if trying to compete with the attention-grabbing games is what whe should aim for. Sure kids love Roblox and Minecraft, and watching lets-play videos for days on end…
But there is no educational aspect in just giving them all the games. And they won’t become invested in the underlying concepts and the world of free software and computers if all you do is replicate a gaming pc and provide them with a flawless Steam/Proton experience. The computer as a tool and the operating system is irrelevant for just gaming. And it isn’t (in my eyes) what makes computers and Linux appealing.
I wouldn’t even attempt to compete with that. Sure, give them SuperTuxKart, PPracer and maybe a Minetest world (with mods and animals and NPCs so the world isn’t just the empty and boring default one).
I don’t really know how to pry a modern child out of games and videos. Maybe restrict their time with that. Show them alternatives and how to use the computer as a tool. Start a project together with them. Maybe design a calender as a gift for someone, or get them started with the stop-motion movie, or music studio. You could also (dis)assemble the PC together with them and install Linux so they learn about the components. Unfortunately this all really requires time, attention and dedication from the adult and I see no way around that. And the child also needs to become interested in that aspect. But you need to start somewhere. I would really try to advertise this as something more than an alternative gaming platform and make some sort of distinction between the two.
[I know how it was back them with old computers and without the internet. We had a super old, decommissioned PC from my dad. The choice of games was somewhat limited and we had to become innovative. I learned programming relatively early, because Commander Keen or the old flight simulator wasn’t as enticing as the modern games are and you got bored after a few days. With some games we got stuck or some were pirated and in English, which i didn’t speak back then. So I definitely did a good amount of gaming, even back then. But we weren’t allowed to do it indefinitely and we also sat in front of the PC with friends and took turns. I suppose this is different now that everyone has their own Nintendo Switch. The world has changed since and trying to go back isn’t the right thing to do. But I believe the underlying concepts, trying to do more than just gaming and passive entertainment, restricting their access to it and provide them with alternatives, if you got the time to spare, is a good thing.]
(Apart from that, I’ve been with the boy scouts for quite some time. We always did some projects in the rainy autumn and winter. Even the roblox-kids from today like to do other things like hands-on projects, handicraft work to carpentry. But you have to find a way to reach them. Once they managed to get some nice results, it becomes easier and they become invested themselves.)
My father was lucky, I wanted a minecraft server so bad that I accepted to learn how to handle an Ubuntu Server, with ~10 years.
Then I kinda had my edgy hacking phase with 12, and installed Kali as dual boot.
As my Windows install got older, dirtier and buggier, I decided to just f it and installed Pop over everything.
So, get them to be interested in having/doing something requiring Linux, then show them the wonders of the Linux desktop, preferably not Kali, but something more user friendly, and finally wait till they want to reinstall for whatever reason, like a new PC (with AMD or Intel GPU).
I think I read his blog back then. Telling about the progress his (then) very young son made. How he didn’t install a graphical user interface at first but the kid loved ‘sl’ (the steam locomotive if you mistype ‘ls’), and cowsay and so on. And they had a command-line chat to communicate (or just smash buttons).
My sons are in that age bracket and when they requested a laptops for themselves (older sister got one for school stuff) I “borrowed” decommissioned thinkpads from work, threw empty ssd’s on them and gave computers to boys with linux mint installer on usb-stick. Younger one got it running in couple of hours without any help and is actively learning on how to use the thing, yesterday he told me how he had learned to open software using keyboard shortcuts and in general is interested about the tinkering aspect of things. Older one has a bit more pragmatic approach, he got the installation done as well but he’s not interested about the computer itself as it’s just a tool to listen to a music, look up for tutorials for his other interests and things like that.
Both cases are of course equally valid and I’m just happy that they are willing to learn things beyond just pushing the buttons. But I’m also (secretly) happy that my youngest shares my interests and he’s been doing simple games with scratch and in general shows interest on how the computers, networking and other stuff actually works.
My kids only know Linux and have never seen Windows in their life before. They know their way around KDE just fine and get the stuff done they need. For gaming, it is steam with proton but mostly they game on consoles.
It’s obviously not representative of the overall Linux experience but I recently realised that messing around on the Linux bits in ChromeOS would be a pretty good way to learn Terminal things, at least for Debian. It’s sandboxed so it doesn’t matter if you screw up and if you do it’s like two or three clicks to start afresh, way simpler than setting up and resetting a standard VM for the inexperienced. It, of course, means using a ChromeOS device but maybe that can be a secondary lesson on having megacorps profit from your data.
With my kid, he just gets on Steam and starts doing his thing with his friends like everybody else as if he was on Windows. It makes no difference to him. I figure I'd let him learn the same way I learned computers, by just standing back and letting him poke and prod around and giving assistance and guidance when necessary. He can't break anything important.
I tried this with my son, who is now 17 and not nearly as computer literate as I was by his age, let alone Linux literate at all. I think it’s a generational thing, as a kid growing up in the 90s I HAD to learn how to administer our PC at a higher level to do the things I wanted to do. Now with easy apps and tablets and auto-installation of all-the-things you just don’t need to be an advanced user to do what you want to do. This is just my experience, YEMV
As a kid I had windows 98 (and later xp) dual booted with debian and at some point some version of suse. This was ~20 years ago
Well I used it just fine and I knew a bout the mysterious “root” and “sudo” that my dad would use but I was just playing some games and maybe using the web browser.
Using the GUI I never learned Linux and it wasn’t until a few years ago that I started using Linux again, and it was only because I wouldn’t be able to continue using Windows 7 anymore.
So I don’t have any experience with teaching Linux and especially not to kids, but I think kids are actually really good at learning stuff if they need too, so give them a PC and the tools to figure things out, if they want to use it they’ve got to learn, and don’t give them other options where they don’t have to learn anything.
Give a kid the arch install wiki and a computer with the USB iso ready to go. Tell them they aren’t allowed food until they install it and run neofetch.
My kids have always been using Linux because that’s what I use on my gaming PC. When it was time for my eldest to get his own computer I tried to educate him on the differences between Linux and Windows (admittedly with my bias) and he chose Linux. I feel like wobbly windows played a big part in that.
He moans about some unsupported multiplayer games now and then and I have told him that we have a spare SSD he may use to install Windows. But so far his suffering wasn’t big enough to help me step him through that process.
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