Sell Me on Linux

TCB13, 7 months ago

I’ll instead “un-sell” you on Linux: tadeubento.com/…/linux-desktop-a-collective-delus…

Given your job I wouldn’t do it:

People who need MS Office because once you have to collaborate with others Open/Libre/OnlyOffice won’t cut it. If one lives in a bubble and doesn’t to collaborate with others then native Linux apps might work and might even deliver a decent workflow. Once collaboration with Windows/Mac users is required then it’s game over – the “alternatives” aren’t just up to it.

Windows licenses are cheap and things work out of the box. Software runs fine, all vendors support whatever you’re trying to do and you’re productive from day zero. Sure, there are annoyances from time to time, but they’re way fewer and simpler to deal with than the hoops you’ve to go through to get a minimal and viable/productive Linux desktop experience.

It all comes down to a question of how much time (days? months?) you want to spend fixing things on Linux that simply work out of the box under Windows for a minimal fee. Buy a Windows license and spend the time you would’ve spent dealing with Linux issues doing your actual job and you’ll, most likely, get a better ROI.

Linux desktop is great, I love it but I don’t sugar coat it nor I’m delusional like most posting about it.

h3ndrik, 7 months ago (edited 7 months ago)

I’ve debunked that article before. Nearly every statement in it is wrong.

lemmy.world/post/7068568

It’s written by someone who expected it to work 100% like the Windows on his PC he is accustomed to. But it doesn’t work that way.

Maxy, 7 months ago

People who need MS Office because once you have to collaborate with others Open/Libre/OnlyOffice won’t cut it;

I use office almost daily, Libreoffice is fine for local editing and office online works if I have to collaborate.

People that just installed a password manager (KeePassXC) and a browser (Firefox/Ungoogled) via flatpak only to find out that the KeePassXC app can’t communicate with the browser extension because people are “beating around the bush” on GitHub instead of fixing the issue;

I simply installed the Bitwarden extension in Firefox and it worked flawlessly. I’m not quite sure why you would want a desktop app for a password manager (never needed this even on windows), but if you do, basically distro ships a regular Firefox package which will work just as on windows.

Anyone who wants a simple Virtual Machine and has to go thought cumbersome installation procedures like this one just to get error messages saying virtualization isn’t enable when, in fact, it is… or trying to use GNOME Boxes and have a sub-par virtualization experience;

4 commands doesn’t seem that cumbersome, it can quite literally be done in 30 seconds. Add to this the fact that it will be updated together with all other apps managed by you package manager, which is incomparably faster compared to windows update (or even most apps’ integrated self-updater)

My experience with gnome boxes was also one of the most hassle-free one ever when working with virtualisation. Worked without advanced setup on a very low-end laptop (i3 4th gen, 4gb DDR3), so I’m not quite sure what would be “sub-par”.

Designers because Adobe apps won’t run properly without having a dedicated GPU, passthrough and a some hacky way to get the image back into your main system that will cause noticeable delays;

Adobe doesn’t have a monopoly on design software. I’m not an artist though, so it could be true that the Linux alternatives aren’t full replacements. I would like to point out that, IIRC, Linus Media Group (a company with 100+ employees) uses macs for Adobe apps; windows would constantly crash, so even here the author’s conclusion (just buy a windows key) doesn’t hold up.

Gamers because of the reasons above plus a flat 5-15% performance hit;

In my experience running games though proton, this is more like a 5% difference in either direction. Native games generally run significantly better for me. Though I will admit this can depend on specific hardware and games (and proton has improved a lot over the years).

People that run old software / games because not even those will run properly on Wine;

Wine is actually starting to support an API which Microsoft has deprecated (www.phoronix.com/news/Wine-8.16-Released). These apps might only work on Linux in the future, not on windows anymore. I will admit that I’m not much of a retro gamer, and other API’s might be a different story.

Developers and sysadmins, because not everyone is using Docker and Github actions to deploy applications to some proprietary cloud solution. Finding a properly working FTP/SFTP/FTPS desktop client (similar WinSCP or Cyberduck) is an impossible task as the ones that exist fail even at basic tasks like dragging and dropping a file.

Want to start using a new language? Just apt install the new interpreter/compiler and start right away. Want to use sftp? Just type sftp into your terminal. Also, most regular file managers just support these protocols out of the box; not having to install a separate app to use these protocols sounds like a Linux win to me. Furthermore, when developing software intended for server use, linux is simply superior due to its similarity to the environment the software will eventually run on.

Just to make it clear, I understand that Linux is not perfect for everyone. But this article appears almost wilfully ignorant to multiple facts. It almost sounds like the author tried Linux for 2 hours, had a single issue they couldn’t resolve during that time (probably nvidia related, which is nvidia’s fault), and decided to give up and write salty articles instead of seeking help.

TCB13, 7 months ago

I use office almost daily, Libreoffice is fine for local editing and office online works if I have to collaborate.

So you’re essentially making the point of the article “office online works if I have to collaborate” implied that LibreOffice really isn’t up for collaboration.

Maxy, 7 months ago

Yes, libreoffice doesn’t really work for live collaboration. But office online is a good solution for that collaboration, and it works in any browser (including Firefox on Linux). Therefore, the author’s conclusion (you need windows to collaborate on word docs) is still wrong.

I personally also believe that WYSIWYG editors are highly overrated: markdown is significantly better for note-taking and similar small documents, and reports would often be better off with LaTeX or something similar. But I understand why the “4 commands is too much hassle to install VirtualBox” crowd might prefer word.

TCB13, 7 months ago

Yes, libreoffice doesn’t really work for live collaboration. But office online is a good solution for that collaboration (…) Therefore, the author’s conclusion (you need windows to collaborate on word docs) is still wrong.

The author isn’t wrong neither he’s right as the actual answer is: it depends. We don’t even have to go as far as “live collaboration” if you’ve to do serious work in MS Office apps just emailing a document to a co-worker that uses LibreOffice can end up badly. LibreOffice works, yes, until you find your custom TOC broken, macros not working, embedded content from other documents not there… images scattered around or even paragraphs ending on a different page just because the MS version of some font is slightly different from what comes with LibreOffice but different enough to totally trash your document. Even Office online has issues with some of the things I described, let alone LibreOffice and this is precisely why people in big companies buy MS Office.

Let me show you even on a very simple document I just made how wrong you are. I created the following document in MS Word and then proceeded to open it in LibreOffice just look at the comments:

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/f2684d35-6584-4f75-9bc7-677dcf8d85a1.jpeg

It’s all simple formatting a couple of headings, text and a bullet list and yet it fails.

Now even better is that if I change the document in some way in LibreOffice and try to save it I get this message:

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/5c8a65fc-9dcd-4b1a-9715-78dd9c7066f5.jpeg

So… LibreOffice can’t even ensure that the most basic formatting and features are displayed and saved properly. So much for “it works fine”.

I personally also believe that WYSIWYG editors are highly overrated: markdown is significantly better for note-taking and similar small documents, and reports would often be better off with LaTeX or something similar.

Let me guess you’re someone who works in IT and never had a typical “office job” that includes spending 90% of your time writing reports and pushing spreadsheets around. This is why you don’t get it, you’re not the typical user of MS Office and you don’t share the same use cases the OP, the article author and myself share.

Maxy, 7 months ago

Yes, some minor formatting changes occur when opening a docx file in libreoffice. Hardly sounds like a deal breaker to me. And yes, you do get a pop-up when saving to docx in libreoffice (with the toggle to disable the pop-ups right there in the message). Microsoft office does the exact same thing when saving to an odt file though: https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/pictrs/image/7c7c3a1b-df3b-48c5-aeca-8e0f2b766ba9.png

Once again, if you have to collaborate with office-users (and you cannot deal with the horror of having a different amount of space between the items), just use office online. How many times do I have to repeat myself?

Let me guess you’re someone who works in IT and never had a typical “office job” that includes spending 90% of your time writing reports and pushing spreadsheets around.

1. No, I do not work in IT, nor do I aspire to work in IT. I’m just a regular PC-user, who just so happens to have other opinions than you do. HOW DARE I?!?
2. Wouldn’t IT-workers of all people know what the more optimized editors are?

This is why you don’t get it, you’re not the typical user of MS Office and you don’t share the same use cases the OP, the article author and myself share.

1. The article you shared was talking about gaming, the adobe creative suite, virtual machines, electrical engineers, labs, architects and sysadmins/developers. Please don’t try to claim that the article author and OP ever had “the same use cases”.
2. I guess you are finally correct though, I’m indeed not the typical user of MS Office (thank god). The typical user pays $70 a year just to edit word docs, while calling the family tech support each time they try to add a horizontal page in word. If your use case is being trapped into a proprietary office solution, where you have to provide a reason before microsoft allows you to shut down your onedrive, where all your documents are saved in a mythical “cloud”, then I am glad that our use-cases differ.
3. I hope you see the irony of you using markdown in a comment describing why I am “out of touch” for using markdown.

If you want to use windows, that’s fine. But please don’t share such blatantly ignorant articles, and don’t try to defend them when multiple people point out why it is wrong about so many things.

I probably won’t reply to your next reaction (should there be any) unless you come up with some actual arguments, instead of “the line spacing is broken, you’re out of touch, not me”.

TCB13, 7 months ago

How many times do I have to repeat myself?

And how many times do I have to tell you that Office Online doesn’t have all the features of Office Desktop? It isn’t even close.

When LibreOffice can’t even make sure text ends up on the same place (as on the screenshot) it isn’t good for collaboration with MS Office users.

Why is it so hard for you look at the screenshot and admit that it isn’t as good as you’ve been saying?

using markdown in a comment describing why I am “out of touch” for using markdown.

No, you’re not “out of touch” for using markdown, you’re “out of touch” for implying that markdown can be a solution for the typical MS Office user as you did.

A_s_h_k_a_n, 7 months ago

@TCB13 @Sage_the_Lawyer
many of the reasons in the article are no true!! I'm a researcher and need to write lots of pages and give them to journals. This is very delicate because if you don't write it the way they want or in other formats your paper will be rejected. I also study at university and has needs for a good office program. It's been 3 years I'm using libreoffice and i never had any problem working with others on the same file even when my professors use MS.

TCB13, 7 months ago (edited 7 months ago)

Dude c’mon facts: lemmy.world/comment/5254969 not even simple bullet points.

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/493617f5-28fb-44aa-a340-ec7e2ebf7c33.jpeg

BRINGit34, 7 months ago

Okay so I am typing as someone who has helped local businesses set up computer systems. Nothing big just one or two person operations. Getting them computers, downloading their software, and making sure they understand how to keep up to date.

I would recommend you use what you are comfortable with at first. Use Windows, get your business in a comfortable position to experiment. And then I would say try Linux out.

I imagine you will need to keep up to date with invoices and the such and you will need to figure out what software you are going to use that. You could always just be basic and use excel sheets but most businesses are using Quick-books or something similar. And a lot of invoicing software does not work on Linux. I would say invoice-ninja is probably the most popular invoicing software on Linux so that would probably get you the best support. This is usually the point people tell me they will stick with windows.

But if you are able to get past that and maybe learn one of those invoicing software applications then I would say you would have next to 0 issues. As you are in a business environment pick something reliable. Debian, Ubuntu LTS, or RHEL. I would test them all in a vm and see what you like best.

Now word documents may cause issues. Maybe. I find libre office works for me 95% of the time. But I don’t do anything very fancy with it. I write essays and maybe every now and then I will include a graph. I would test libre office on windows and see how that works for you. Only office is also an option but I have 0 experience with it.

Also I find that linux is seriously lacking in ways to manage pdfs. At this point I use my browsers built in pdf reader more than any sort of linux app. Digital signing has always been a pain in the ass and the pdf reader I have the best luck out of is Zathura which is a cli application which is definitely not new-user friendly. But this isn’t really an issue it’s just me nitpicking. You can manage pdfs on linux just as well as windows it just may not be as user friendly some times.

You mentioned you are worried about some video formats not working on linux. May I ask what sort of video formats those are. I find vlc or mpv to have great support for most if not all video formats.

My recommendation would be to use linux. I love it. But this is a new business. Use what works for you as much as possible. Get to the point where you have the funds and free time to experiment and try linux. Poke around with some open source apps in windows and see how they work. Invoice-Ninja and libre office both have windows versions.

I wish you luck with your endeavors and I hope my comment has helped somewhat

edit: spelling and punctuation

GustavoM, 7 months ago

That is like, trying to convince a meat lover to eat veggies (only) but seriously? Just download an iso @ linuxmint.com, give it a spin. It’s free. Be aware that “It’s not Windows” so expect some things to not behave “by the Windows logic”. “Duckduckgo is your friend”, even if it means asking the most trivial things “How do I install $thing on Linux mint?”, and you’ll be just fine.

lemann, 7 months ago

For opening Word documents, I’d highly recommend OnlyOffice. Has outstanding compatibility with documents originally created in Microsoft Word, and it’s free on Flathub

Another alternative if you have an existing 365 subscription would be the online version of Word in your web browser.

If you’re heavily into the 365 ecosystem though, do note that things like Onedrive compatibility aren’t all the way there on linux, so you’d miss luxuries like right-clicking a file and getting a shareable link, or sending a file to someone directly from the file manager. For these you’ll need to drag-n-drop the file into onedrive, or into your email app to send them.

Things like opening PDFs, viewing various video formats etc, are built-in and work flawlessly on pretty much all Linux distros. Support for opening encrypted PDF files should be flawless too, haven’t had issues with these myself.

Would recommend Linux Mint, or Zorin OS, as both have a pretty similar look and feel when coming from Windows

TCB13, 7 months ago

OnlyOffice. Has outstanding compatibility with documents

It might be decent, but is isn’t “outstanding”, advanced formatting and features sometimes fails. Another thing about OnlyOffice is that it is a web app, it might work fine for smaller documents, however when you’ve to load a 50+ page document scrolling around becomes really bad as you’ll have to scroll and wait 1-2 seconds for each page to load.

Things like opening PDFs, viewing various video formats etc, are built-in and work flawlessly on pretty much all Linux distros

It isn’t “flawlessly”. Forms in PDFs aren’t supported properly.

bismuthbob, 7 months ago

I use linux to run my law office, so it can be done. Most of what I use is web-based these days, so headaches are minor. That being typed, I’ve been using linux off and on since the 1990s, and there was a fair amount of learning involved. A few notes:

-Libreoffice is good enough for document drafting, unless you’re extremely reliant on templates generated in Word. Even then, that’s a few hours of clerical work that you can farm out with, presumably, no confidentiality issues to flag. Also bear in mind that if you end up using different Linux distributions on more than one computer, then you may run into minor formatting differences between different versions of your word processing software. Microsoft Office will be a reliable option unless you run windows as a virtual machine. There are workarounds, but they aren’t business ready.

-Some aspects of PDF authoring can be tricky if you’re doing discovery prep, redaction, and related tasks in-house. This is very workflow-specific, so if you’re not a litigator or your jurisdiction doesn’t have a lot of specific requirements for pdf submissions, it might not be something that you need to worry about. If it becomes a problem, then a Windows virtual machine might be a solution.

-Video support depends greatly on the linux distribution, so you may want to do a bit of research and avoid distributions like Fedora, where certain mainstream AV formats are not supported by default for philosophical/licensing reasons.

-Compatibility with co-counsel and clients will be hit or miss. I don’t let anything leave my office that hasn’t been converted to PDF and I only do collaboration when there is a special request to do so. I can fall back on a computer that I have which runs Office. It sounds like you have more than one computer, so you can have a backup plan.

-Hardware support is critical. If you need to videoconference and it turns out that your webcam doesn’t have a linux driver, then you may be hosed. Research and test on the front-end so that you don’t find yourself in an embarrassing situation of your own making.

-Learning curves cost money. If you’re using an entirely new set of user software AND you’re hopping between different distributions to find the version of linux that works for you, you’ll waste a LOT of time that you could be using to generate billable work.

tun, 7 months ago

My first thought was “buy linux compatible hardwares” - laptop and printer.

According to your reply, paper printing is no longer a big deal.

For the document, I thought Microsoft 365 will do.

Video codecs are available but some distro choose not to include it by default.

Most of the time linux is no go for professionals with locked-in softwares such as Adobe graphics design suite, AutoCAD, etc.

bismuthbob, 7 months ago

Paper printing is no big deal if you stick carefully to your first thought about linux-compatible hardware.

I use Brother laser printers whenever I need a hard copy. That brand tends to work well with linux, but research the model number in conjunction with the distribution that you’re using before you purchase.

Your point about locked in software is very important. Even in my own industry, some of my earlier jobs relied on custom Windows software for billing, dictation, document creation, and more. A lot of former nonstarters have been pushed to the cloud, but there are still challenges.

PanArab, 7 months ago

No one will try to sell you anything, not even ads

fhek, 7 months ago

Load up Mint or Ubuntu on a virtual machine.

If you like it, install it to a drive. Don’t let people convince you to wipe a HDD and jump into Linux.

It’s not a good idea if you’ve never used Linux before and you need this computer for daily work.

bjoern_tantau, 7 months ago

If you’re using your computer for work and can’t afford to spend some time figuring out how to do something that would be second nature for you on Windows, you shouldn’t switch. It would probably be more expensive than just buying a Windows license.

That said, you shouldn’t expect too many problems. You can try out your Word templates right now in Libre Office. Or just run the web version of Microsoft Office in Linux. Video codecs are usually just one command away.

In terms of what distribution to choose, I would choose something popular that’s stable and comes with sane defaults. Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora or OpenSUSE Leap.

The main difference for a newbie will probably be how to install software. On Linux you usually don’t go to the manufacturers website and download an installer. Instead you go to your software center and search there for what you need. Similar to the App Store and Play Store on phones.

BrianTheeBiscuiteer, 7 months ago

Agree. Linux isn’t that hard but there is a bit of a learning curve and you shouldn’t gamble your business on your ability to pick up a brand new OS. If you can afford support or an “IT Guy” then take the plunge. For general clerical stuff there should be zero compatibility issues.

vettnerk, 7 months ago

I have exactly zero experience in what work a law office does, but I would think it’s mostly paperwork and email? If so you can do that at no startup costs.

Pick a distro (pop, mint, whatever), and install libreoffice or one of its many variants for offfice integration.

A common misconception is that linux involves a lot of coding. Sure, it can if you want to - all the hooks for programatical access are there, for example if you want to build shell scripts for automation. But you don’t need to. It’s just an option many linux users, myself included, like to take advantage of.

When it comes to convincing you, all I can say is this: It costs you nothing to try.

Sage_the_Lawyer, 7 months ago

Yes, mostly paperwork and email for sure. Some basic spreadsheet stuff for tracking clients and payments and whatnot, but there’s also programs for that.

One less common, yet essential, thing I haven’t gotten a specific response on yet, is converting word docs to PDFs with searchable text. Not sure if you know things about that, but it popped into my head while responding here so hopefully someone who sees this knows something.

And, a generic thank you to everyone who has responded, this has all been very helpful. Even if I don’t respond to you specifically, I appreciate it.

valkyrie, 7 months ago

I’m pretty sure you can print to PDF or save as a PDF in libreoffice.

FrostyPolicy, 7 months ago

LibreOffice has a builtin pdf export functionality.

drem, 7 months ago

you can export to pdf and the text is searchable (in firefox with ctrl f)

JustEnoughDucks, 7 months ago

The one thing that I would look into is digital signing and change tracking

If you use that, I am not sure how it works between linux office programs and Microsoft office.

bismuthbob, 7 months ago

On my distro, hitting print in the Office365 web app autogenerates a searchable pdf. As mentioned by others, it is trivial to generate a searchable pdf from LibreOffice as well.

beta_tester, 7 months ago

You can just downlaod any linux iso, e.g. fedora fedoraproject.org/workstation/download , and install it in a virtual machine. This way you can play with linux.

You can also write it to an USB and boot from the USB, nothing grts written on any other storagr device and you can test if everything works, check for compatibility, play around and once you’re done, you shut down, remove the USB and your PC is like nothing has happened. Getting to know how to download an iso, write it to usb and boot from it is a common and easy task.

I’ve never heard of a common video format not playing on linux

Sage_the_Lawyer, 7 months ago

This is a great tip, I’ll definitely do some test runs, thanks!

Flaky, 7 months ago

Some old video codecs were proprietary and had to be installed afterwards from a separate repository or package, that might be where that notion is coming from. That being said once the relevant codecs are installed (open-source or proprietary) things just work fine, or you could install VLC or mpv and just call it a day.

astraeus, 7 months ago

Some legal software only runs on Windows, including some of the proprietary video software used by courts and police departments. There’s a ton of reason they should move towards interoperability in the legal system, but a lot of this software is contract-bound and carries lofty promises of security and privacy.

That being said, I would try to run those on Wine if it’s possible.

BitSound, 7 months ago

Since Word documents are one of your bigger concerns, you can download LibreOffice on one of your current machines and try them out. That’s the same program you’d be using on Linux.

It’d have to be a pretty unusual video format to have issues. Similar to above, you can try VLC on Windows and see if there’s any issues.

Based on your description, I’d be surprised if you encountered any major issues. I’d recommend trying either Pop! OS if you’re OK with a slightly different UI from Windows, or Mint if you want something more comfortable. Note that you can create a LiveUSB stick of either of those, or any other distro. You can then boot your computer from it and take it for a spin to see if there’s any obvious issues.

Sage_the_Lawyer, 7 months ago

Yeah some counties use pointlessly complicated programs to distribute videos. I often have to try a few different players on windows to find one that works. If VLC has trouble with something, are there others you’d recommend as well?

redcalcium, 7 months ago

VLC usually can handle everything you throw at it. The other popular and capable media player is MPV, though it’s not as user friendly as VLC but has tons of advanced features.

lemann, 7 months ago

VLC can pretty much play everything - avi, avi+mjpeg, mov, mpeg, 3gp, flv, you name it. In some cases it can reconstruct corrupted videos and try to play them (typically AVI files)

There’s another player called MPV if you want a second option just in-case though!

BitSound, 7 months ago (edited 7 months ago)

VLC is the sort of software where if it can’t play it, I don’t know what else could. I guess I’d also try the ffmpeg command line tool to see if it can figure out what the video file even is, and maybe it could convert it to a regular format.

Also TBH such a video file would be interesting enough that you could probably post it here (if possible, or any metadata you can extract from it) and see if anyone knows how to play it.

asexualchangeling, 7 months ago (edited 7 months ago)

I don’t tend to use word documents much anymore, but from what I’ve heard, of the 2 main open source document viewers Only Office probably has the most compatibility with word, and iirc it recently added PDF support