Did we kill Linux's killer feature?

A few years ago we were able to upgrade everything (OS and Apps) using a single command. I remember this was something we boasted about when talking to Windows and Mac fans. It was such an amazing feature. Something that users of proprietary systems hadn’t even heard about. We had this on desktops before things like Apple’s App Store and Play Store were a thing.

We can no longer do that thanks to Flatpaks and Snaps as well as AppImages.

Recently i upgraded my Fedora system. I few days later i found out i was runnig some older apps since they were Flatpaks (i had completely forgotten how I installed bitwarden for instance.)

Do you miss the old system too?

Is it possible to bring back that experience? A unified, reliable CLI solution to make sure EVERYTHING is up to date?

cyclohexane,

I don’t use flatpak. But if your distro does, I imagine it should be pretty easy for them to provide a higher level program that updates both types of packages at once. I think this isn’t a big problem.

LeFantome,

Use a distribution with a large package library that is kept up to date and there is noting to miss.

Ubuntu is starting to push Snaps. So, that is becoming an unavoidable reality for Ubuntu users. For the most part though, Flatpaks remain optional for most distros.

The problem that Flatpaks solve is that the distro provided packages are out-of-date. If they are not, there is no real reason to prefer Flatpak.

Feyter,

IDK I thought sandboxing is also something that comes with Flatpak, so security concernes could be a reason to use Flatpak as well.

LeFantome,

I do hear that. Flatpaks do not seem to be very good sandboxes though.

const_void,

I’m still updating the whole system with one command. Just avoid flatpaks. Repackage for your distro if you need to.

bennieandthez,
@bennieandthez@lemmygrad.ml avatar

You can just alias the update commands and have it as a a single command…

atamblingpoder,

You can just use Topgrade and it’ll update your entire system, including everything from your oh-my-$shell, pip, flatpak, snap etc

Fubarberry,
@Fubarberry@sopuli.xyz avatar

Topgrade is great, one of the first things I install on a new system.

karson777,

just installed topgrade and wow, it’s amazing. wish i knew this existed before.

brenno,

Nowadays I don’t even bother with upgrades anymore. Snaps and Flatpaks auto updates automatically, and for system updates Ubuntu notifies once a week.

For me the experience nowadays is better than before, where app updates are tied to system updates, meaning that older bases (like Ubuntu LTS) got behind on some softwares.

Treczoks,

Snaps and Flatpaks auto updates automatically

Nope. Firefox does not, because either Firefox is running, or the PC is down or sleeping. So I have to close Firefox, open a shell, update that snap shit, and restart Firefox. Which pisses me off to no end, apart from the point that snaps are a waste of resources and a bad idea in general.

MigratingtoLemmy,

I use very minimal software and usually don’t care about Flatpak

hottari,

You can definitely make an alias for this if all you want is a single command.

PS. I don’t think what you describe is a killer feature.

nightwatch_admin,

If you want a single command, consider topgrade. Not sure if it supports Flatpak and Snaps yet, as I do not use those (yet).

UdeRecife,
@UdeRecife@literature.cafe avatar

For arch Linux, there’s Topgrade. All there, in just one command. All. There. Official repos, AUR, even firmware upgrades.

Here’s my alias to update the whole system. It includes fetching the fastest mirrors, topgrade, and cleaning the update’s packages cache. Tailor it to your own needs.

alias update=‘sudo fetchmirrors -q -s 5 -v -c PT && yes | topgrade -c -y --no-retry --disable gem --disable vim --disable emacs --disable gem --disable sdkman --disable rustup --disable cargo --disable remotes && sudo paccache -rk 0’

marty_relaxes,

Fully agreed with the usefulness of topgrade.

Topgrade is not just for archlinux but will happily upgrade Debian-/RedHat-Derivatives, Gentoo, Void, some BSDs and I think even Mac and Windows, though I’m not sure how those work.

The link you provided also goes to the unmaintained original version, while there is a community fork here: github.com/topgrade-rs/topgrade which sees more development (but is also looking for maintainers!)

I’m also using topgrade and it is wonderful to upgrade the system dependencies but even the content of unrelated package managers such as pipx, vim, zsh plugin-managers, cargo programs, R packages, npm/yarn packages, and importantly for this thread flatpaks and snaps with one command. It really is lovely.

stewie3128,

emerge -uDN @world

…and head to bed for me.

sugartits,

And wake up and find the third package in failed to compile.

stewie3128,

Hasn’t been my experience

WindowsEnjoyer,

On Arch Linux I’ve migrated away from Flatpaks, so I only use AUR and official repos.

Oh boy my updates speed increased like 3 to 5 times. Flatpak is slow as fuck.

Also my ISP is slow as fuck.

hottari,

Guess what, Flatpaks have delta updates (a criminally underrated feature) so all things equal, updates are technically faster than pacman.

WindowsEnjoyer,

I practically observed it. To me flatpaks were horribly slow due to my download speed. I don’t know what sort of magic packages it was downloading, but I was waiting way longer than simply using pacman/AUR packages. 🤷

hottari,

Arch has more mirrors for sure. But my point was on delta updates which technically make updating flatpaks faster and less bandwidth consuming, runtimes aside.

art,
@art@lemmy.world avatar

It’s wild what can be done with some clever aliases. Linux is better now than ever before.

lloram239,

Flatpak and Snap certainly go in the wrong direction, instead of being an upgrade and replacement for existing package managers, they are a crooked sidegrade, that solves some problems, while creating multiple new ones that used to be solved by older package managers. Flatpak making Gnome and KDE the only dependencies to exist is also pretty messed up.

I don’t mind AppImages in this, as they never set up to be a new package manager format, but instead are just a way to bundle executables and dependencies into a single file for easier redistribution. You certainly don’t want to use that for all your packages, but as a quick&dirty workaround to get some semblance of cross-distribution packaging, with close to zero impact on the user, it’s quite good. It’s also one of the few formats that gives the user full control over up- and downgrades, as it’s all just simple files you can run and archive as you wish, it’s not a service that forces you to always use the latest thing.

So yeah, Linux packaging is still a mess and it will probably take another decade or two before the dust has settled. Though I can’t shake the feeling that we have reached peak-Linux quite some years ago and it’s all downhill from here. Free Software principles aren’t exactly high priority for any company doing development in this space, and Free Software principles by itself aren’t even enough in a modern SAAS world to begin with.

Somebody needs to write the book on what it means to be Free Software in the modern world, especially when it comes to online-services, distribution and reproducibility, aspects that have been largely ignored so far.

beteljuice,

Check out Nix, which goes in the opposite direction. There isn’t really a distinction between the system and applications.

null,

Yup, once I got into Arch I started meticulously documenting my setup and scripting as much as possible so I could quickly set up a new system to my liking.

Daily driving NixOS now, and I still have plenty to learn, but I’m getting very close to to having that whole setup fully declared in config.

It’s truly the best of all worlds.

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