Dusk Developer David Szymanski: I'd rather pay Valve 30% and put up with their de facto monopoly than help Epic work towards their own (very obviously desired) monopoly

If I’m honest, I don’t disagree.

I would love for Steam to have **actual competition. Which is difficult, sure, but you could run a slightly less feature-rich store, take less of a cut, and pass the reduction fully on to consumers and you’d be an easy choice for many gamers.

But that’s not what Epic is after. They tried to go hard after the sellers, figuring that if they can corner enough fo the market with exclusives the buyers will have to come. But they underestimated that even their nigh-infinite coffers struggle to keep up with the raw amount of games releasing, and also the unpredictability of the indie market where you can’t really know what to buy as an exclusive.
Nevermind that buying one is a good way to make it forgotten.

So yeah, fully agreed. Compared to Epic, I vastly prefer Steam’s 30% cut. As the consumer I pay the same anyways, and Steam offers lots of stuff for it like forums, a client that boots before the heat death of the universe, in-house streaming, library sharing, cloud sync that sometimes works.

naut,

it should be easier to change publisher than engine, you can choose publisher, but Unity will hold your balls forever

Buttons, (edited )
@Buttons@programming.dev avatar

I was reading about the Unity debacle and thought thank God Gabe that Steam has never pulled shit like this.

I think part of the problem is too many companies are controlled by venture capitalists, or private equity, or whatever you call it. The point is that a single entity owns multiple companies from the shadows.

Companies are supposed to compete and the best company win, that’s good in theory. But when a single shadow entity owns multiple companies they’ll do something like squeeze customers of one company, which drives customers to their competitor, which, surprise, is owned by the same shadow entity.

Adalast,

You seem to know what you are talking about, so this is for those who don’t, the “illusion of competition” has become such a staple in the modern world. In the US (and much of the world as I understand it) eyeglass sellers are all owned by the same company. Pearl Vision, LensCrafters, and I think even the Walmart vision centers are all owned and operated by Luxottica. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxottica

It is a vertical monopoly that controls everything from materials acquisition to sales, directly “competes” with itself, and lies to customers every day to make them think they are actually in control.

Then you have companies like 3M, or Nestle, who control most of the entire industries. A good 85% of all food on the shelves in the USA is produced by one of 4 or 5 companies that definitely collude to fix prices and use aggressive tactics to protect their position. They also follow the “compete with yourself” model to make you think you are actually making a decision with your money. You aren’t.

Then there is the big Ag companies. In Ohio they have actually gotten laws on the books that make it illegal to do Farm Shares, where you purchase a share of the crops they produce for the year and for about 8 months a year you get a big basket of fresh produce delivered to you. An ex and I got to do it for a year before we split and it was amazing. It was a ton of food and only cost us about $150 for the half-share we purchased. It would be amazing right now with prices and it would help local private farms, which is precisely why they pushed it out.

I can rant for hours… So I cut here. This whole topic just infuriates me to no end.

Cybersteel,
@Cybersteel@lemmy.ml avatar

Illuminatus

Rentlar,

Steam is a legitimate value add for sellers and buyers/users, that justifies its 30% cut. Other than free games, Epic has a seemingly easy-to-integrate online networking system, that’s about it. Steam has a modding platform, broadcasting, remote “parsec”-like controller emulator, Linux support, content sharing, forums and a developer news feed. That’s quite a lot.

What makes me stick with them is that they don’t preclude Steam and other gaming users from using alternatives but simply compete with their own well-made system… plenty of games have their own cross-platform mod-launchers that aren’t workshop for example. Steamworks DRM isn’t required and Steam networking services for multiplayer aren’t mandatory either.

That said, itch and GoG are great alternatives where they have games available. I’d just like GoG to provide better Linux support.

TeoTwawki, (edited )
@TeoTwawki@lemmy.world avatar

Gog has support problems on some windows games too. Also they mark games run via dosbox as windows, which is annoying when you specifically want to find an older windows game that also had a dos release. Even with those issues, gog is still my goto because at least my games won’t be full of denuvo securom etc. and nobody else seems to remotely care about the really old harder to find games. I’d be scouring ebay for old discs if not for gog.

Silverstrings,
@Silverstrings@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

My biggest issue with Epic is them very clearly doing the classic tactic of selling goods at unsustainably low prices in order to drive out competition before jacking them back up again. Their whole free game shtick can’t possibly last forever and they know it.

aesthelete,

I believe it used to be illegal to sell things at less than cost because the original monopolists did this too. Why did we make that legal again?

neshura,
@neshura@bookwormstory.social avatar

It isn’t (at least over here) but the “cost” for a game is really iffy to define because if you want to be pedantic the distribution cost for a digital game are cents and that only if you actually factor in infrastructure costs. So technically they can just price them however they want because technically a single game download has 0 cost.

Technically because we all know that the production costs have to be regained somehow, just that with enough lawyer bs you can ignore that as a product cost on paper (for example if you label the entire production a learning experience or smth)

Viper_NZ,

This and the paid exclusives mean I haven’t, and won’t use EGS out of pure spite.

phx,

I’ve picked up a ton of their free games. I’ve yet to actually install their client and actually play one

CileTheSane,
@CileTheSane@lemmy.ca avatar

I could always get one of those games off the high seas and pay the same amount. I’m not going to give Epic the engagement numbers to get investors with.

YeastInspection,

I believe these Indy devs get paid when you boot a game you got for free, so I’m happy to install stuff and boot it once just to support gaming in general

zeekzag,
@zeekzag@lemmy.world avatar

Just install a FOSS alternative to their launcher like Heroic

MeanEYE,
@MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

How does that quote from Douglas Adams go:

It is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it… anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.

Buttons,
@Buttons@programming.dev avatar

I wish we had a branch of government filled with randomly selected people.

Imagine if we filled each house seat by randomly selecting 5 people, having the 5 people debate, and then people could vote for which of the 5 they wanted. We would then have a government filled with normal but likable people.

yamanii,
@yamanii@lemmy.world avatar

I only buy from gog on the side too since the no drm policy is very pro consumer. And also the porn games are unrated via a free dlc instead of having to download it externally.

tehmics,

Free dlc you say… interesting

Mango,

Steam’s way means no centralized curation bullshit. Developers gotta bet on themselves.

ram, (edited )
@ram@bookwormstory.social avatar

deleted_by_author

    •
    Carighan,
    @Carighan@lemmy.world avatar

    I think the pseudo-quote you wanted to do the other way around.

    The thing is, sure, I prefer buying things from say, GOG. But Epic is horrible, and that’s even just from my consumer perspective with it’s bad client, terrible discoverability and lack of forums or anything. So as a consumer I have no incentive to support Epic, no matter whether I want to give my money to Steam or another place.

    ram,
    @ram@bookwormstory.social avatar

    You’re right, I did get the pseudo-quote backwards.

    As far as customer experience, that’s one thing, and that’s valid. “I prefer to use Steam because it has features Epic doesn’t, even if one’s a monopoly” though is very different from the quote above, which is distinctly about supporting X company over Y company; not about product difference, but actual support.

    Let’s be real though, if Epic had literally just released Steam but with a good UI people would still boycott it, referencing xenophobic shit like “because china”, angry at tim sweeney, complaining about another launcher, and anything else. The PC market has this really strange and uncomfortable adoration of Steam. It’s console-warrior levels, really.

    I don’t disagree that EGS is a lackluster product in many ways, but it’s pretty clear that the complaints about it by and far are simply justification for a pre-existing opinion, both because of predisposition towards steam, and against “the guys who made that stupid fortnite game”.

    petrol_sniff_king,

    referencing xenophobic shit like “because china”, angry at tim sweeney,

    What… the fuck are you talking about? You are lost in sauce, dude.

    I would rather GOG be made the de facto alternative than Epic. The fact that we have approx. 1 grocery store nearby does not mean we should be excited a Walmart is being built.

    ram,
    @ram@bookwormstory.social avatar

    I’d rather neither, and that companies open up their own storefronts with standalone downloads. Unfortunately we’re in the age of Walmarts for games.

    Nefyedardu,

    referencing xenophobic shit like “because china”

    Disliking a company that aids in genocide makes you "xenophobic"?

    Content that Beijing deems “subversive” has also been forced to be removed from both platforms. Human rights experts are well aware of the ways that these apps have been utilized to spy on Uyghurs and other dissenting voices and are used to persecute these individuals and their family members. Information collected from WeChat can be enough to land one in a concentration camp or prison, as is the case for many Uyghurs who have contact with foreigners or family members who are abroad. Tencent, WeChat’s parent company, is thus clearly complicit in the genocide of Uyghurs, amongst other affronts on human rights. The United States administration has not been alone in acknowledging this, India has also banned far more Chinese apps than were addressed by the U.S. executive order on August sixth.

    ram,
    @ram@bookwormstory.social avatar

    You realize that Tencent doesn’t own Epic. They have a minority stake in them, as they do bluehole, ubisoft, activision blizzard, platinum games, paradox interactive, fatshark, funcom, and discord. They also wholly or majority own supercell, grinding gear games, and riot games.

    No discussion of these other companies devolves into saying that these companies personally aid in genocide. Why is that? As far as I can tell, it’s just because a small contingency of gamers online don’t like how popular fortnite is.

    Nefyedardu,

    So now its not xenophobia, it's because people don't like the popularity of Fortnite? How about lets not handwave all of Tencent's crimes against humanity with "you're just xenophobic" or "you just don't like Fortnite". Nobody of any good conscious should support that company or any of its owned companies (partially or otherwise).

    ram,
    @ram@bookwormstory.social avatar

    Both are true. There can be multiple contributing factors, yes.

    But yes, we shouldn’t support corporations. To that point I wholeheartedly agree.

    Lesrid,

    It’s infuriating to me that only Steam and EA’s stores have gifting built in. Most of my games budget goes to buying small-squad multiplayer games like Deep Rock Galactic and Sea of Thieves for people.

    Sure you can buy a key anywhere but I love seeing at a glance that an acquaintance has a particular DLC or game to surprise them rather than asking them first. And then there’s a small chance they thank you for the key and pass it on to someone else instead of just telling you they don’t like game, while Steam has a handy decline button.

    Smokeydope, (edited )
    @Smokeydope@lemmy.world avatar

    Epic is on a decline, never forget what they did to unreal. Also I really like when devs give the option to buy on itch.io and get a steam key with the drm free version. They get more money per sale and I get a drm free version and a steam version in one. Zortch and Dwarf Fortress are the only two games I know of to do this but would like to see more.

    shami,
    @shami@lemmy.world avatar

    What did they do to Unreal?

    Smokeydope, (edited )
    @Smokeydope@lemmy.world avatar

    delisted all the unreal and unreal tournament games from all storefronts to reduce competition to fortnite. You can’t buy any unreal game legit anymore, either have to pirate or scrounge internet archive. For anyone who doesn’t know unreal was epicmegagames first flagship series, the one that printed the money for the foundation they sit on. Very dedicated fanbase and everything, and epic kills it. even the singleplayer campaigns.

    beefcat,
    @beefcat@lemmy.world avatar

    to reduce competition to fortnite

    this doesn’t make any sense, these games were never competing with fortnite.

    delisting these games was a very shitty thing to do, but there is no reason for us to go around fabricating nonsensical motives to explain it. the far simpler explanation is that they didn’t want to put in the work to keep these games playable on modern PCs.

    Viper_NZ,

    Meanwhile Quake and Quake II just got awesome remasters…

    beefcat,
    @beefcat@lemmy.world avatar

    in these instances the steam version is usually also drm-free

    DingoBilly,

    Eh, they’re all just companies and all just as fallible as one another.

    Not sure I get the Valve worship here.

    Carighan,
    @Carighan@lemmy.world avatar

    Oh, don’t mistake me preferring Steam (and GOG, for example, who have an actual value proposition to me as a consumer - unlike Epic!) to “Valve worship”. They’re simply the least bad option, but of course they’re all huge corporations. Realistically though Valve has actually surprisingly little bad given the amount of money and market control they have, so eh… for now, I’m happy buying about half my games there (usually ends up that way, though I prefer GOG for games also releasing on that).

    echo64,

    it’s a big circlejerk, it happens. everyone has the exact same opinion but also wants to feel like they are making a valiant statement in opposition of the bad thing

    it’s all a massive oversight of course, statisticly everyone here is likely going to outlive Gabe Newel. and when valve goes public someone else will control that monopoly.

    sirboozebum,

    I remember when Valve and Steam was the great enemy in the early 2000s.

    Everyone hated how buggy it was and needing it to play Counterstrike.

    MeanEYE,
    @MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

    It’s not a hard thing to get. Over the years Valve has had relatively low amount of blunders and for the most part they were of the misjudging customer base kind but ultimately they have been very consumer oriented and have provided great value for the money. From universal refund policy to family sharing and similar. Their service consists of many benefits for the consumer but all of that is charged from the developer. Very hard not to like such approach.

    Epic on the other hand did the opposite. They catered to developers and inconvenienced consumers. You get to pay the same price as everywhere but you are forced to get exclusives from them and you don’t get any of the benefits Steam has. Am in fact surprised it gained as much popularity as it did. Goes to show people will sell their own pride for occasional free game you don’t even get to chose.

    masterspace,

    This is asinine. You pay higher costs for games, and Valve gets to pretend to give you something for free. That is not something to like or admire.

    MeanEYE,
    @MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

    Am not sure I have ever overpaid a game on Steam. It’s either same price everywhere or I get it at stupid discounts during sales. There’s no pretending. Valve even said it there are things in place should Steam ever disappear you get to keep your games.

    masterspace,

    Yes, you have, because developers price their games to still make money even after 30% goes to Valve.

    systemglitch,

    What’s not to get? I’m genuinely curious.

    DingoBilly,

    Why do people just want Steam as one store monopoly vs. Having two companies compete where Steam is one of them.

    It’s only good for consumers…

    Zetta,

    I don’t think anyone has a problem with their being two big competitors, it’s just we don’t want it to be epic games. gog games would be a good competitor

    systemglitch,

    Right? I have no issues buying off gog. Epic will never see a penny though.

    beefcat,
    @beefcat@lemmy.world avatar

    steam is good and egs sucks. it’s not worship, just consumers voicing their preference for a better product.

    wicked,

    Steam is a better product, but you give less money to the developers of the actual game. Unless it has Steam exclusives (e.g. Steam workshop) I would rather buy wherever I give the devs most money.

    beefcat,
    @beefcat@lemmy.world avatar

    features like steam input and steam play benefit every game regardless if the developer actively supports them. i use the latter quite frequently.

    wicked,

    Yeah, I understand why people like and buy from Steam. It gives real value.

    However, especially for smaller game studios, I believe I get more value if actual game developers get more money than Steam getting it. Let’s say a studio gets $1m in revenue after years of work. Having $180k more ($120k Epic fee vs $300k Steam fee) to spend on artists and developers for their next games/DLCs is a big difference.

    Those $300k is literally 0.003409% of Steam’s revenue (estimated 8.8 billion in 2020). Valve could have an army of over 40,000 developers at a yearly $200k compensation and still be profitable just from selling other people’s games.

    So I make a big convenience sacrifice when I buy from Epic. I also don’t like to support Tencent. But unless the dev is selling Steam keys directly from their web site, that’s where they get the most money.

    Nefyedardu,

    Smaller game studios on Epic are DOA anyway because Epic refuses to implement game discovery features.

    When it introduced Steam Direct, Valve prioritized the development of Steam features that helped users discover games they might be interested in, such as the Discovery Queue. The Epic Games Store will continue to get interface updates, but as a matter of principle, Allison says that Epic will not track user behavior and use it to algorithmically recommend games. Epic has said in the past that it's more interested in supporting the game discovery that already happens outside of stores, such as on Twitch and YouTube.

    So Epic will put your game trailer on their YouTube for 300 views and call it a day.

    Dark_Arc,
    @Dark_Arc@social.packetloss.gg avatar

    You know you made a really interesting point that they marketed to the sellers not the ultimate customers. I hadn’t really picked up on that before, but it does mitigate what should be a healthy dose of competition by altering the target audience a bit.

    hh93,

    I mean that’s the same side that steam is using their monopoly for, too

    For the users it’s definitely the most relaxed option - but as a developer if you choose to not put up with steams 30% rule you are fucked.

    The fact that pretty much immediately after epic gained traction steam announced cheaper rates for bigger publishers tells you that they definitely are aware of how 30% is too much

    Personally that’s why I buy all my games on gog if possible even though I have a Steamdeck and that makes stuff more complicated.

    People denying steam has a monopoly are probably also denying other fundamental truths that would imply that they had to change their lifestyle (climate change anyone?)

    Carighan,
    @Carighan@lemmy.world avatar

    Yeah, GOG is my preferred store if there’s feature parity, too. On that note, anyone here got AoW4 from GOG? Are all mods available through Paradox, or at least all you’d ever need? Or is most bound to Steam like back in the AoW3 days?

    Dark_Arc,
    @Dark_Arc@social.packetloss.gg avatar

    I don’t really think it is. Steam hasn’t really tried that hard to get developers to use their platform because their users already demand their platform. They’ve made concessions on their preferred way in a handful of cases with very large gaming companies like Activision.

    systemglitch,

    I regret gog purchases now that I own a steam deck. I don’t see gog directly getting my money if I can get it on steam anymore.

    neshura,
    @neshura@bookwormstory.social avatar

    Valve really understands how to get people to stay. Proton is an absolute life saver for gaming on linux and Steam currently offers the best experience with it. You just click play and most of the times that’s it, game works. I have no idea how VR works without Steam but I can only imagine it being a giant pain in the ass given how easy SteamVR is to use (a couple of Linux Bugs aside)

    Chailles,
    @Chailles@lemmy.world avatar

    You say that as if Steam has unreasonably high rates. Sony, Microsoft, Apple as a standard all have the same rate.

    wicked,

    Yes, those are all unreasonably high, which is why they have so many billions of dollars in profit. The cost of running their services is a pittance compared to their revenues.

    Nefyedardu,

    Is it surprising to you that Valve is a for-profit company, not a charity? Of course they profit from the 30%. Just like with any other product, you charge based on what people are willing to pay. If you charge too much, people won't pay for the product and you have to readjust the price. Obviously since companies are willing to pay the 30%, it must not be too high. Somehow I doubt if the people complaining about this woke up as the CEO of Valve, they would be willing to massively cut their companies profits because... why? Just to be nice to a bunch of other corporations?

    wicked,

    No, of course it’s not surprising that they’re not a charity. Sure, the big app stores exploit their near-monopolies with exorbitant fees.

    Good for Apple, Valve and Google, but I think it’s better that game dev studios and app developers get money instead. However, devs don’t currently have a real choice but to pay up.

    Competition can change that, so we should support technically worse stores like Epic so developers will not have to pay their unreasonably high fees.

    neshura,
    @neshura@bookwormstory.social avatar

    I mean that’s the same side that steam is using their monopoly for, too

    Steam only has a monopoly because they have the absolute feature advantage. There is no other launcher that offers all of the features Steam does. Steams Monopoly is a natural one, it formed because every other choice was worse and developers don’t want to put the game on another 30 stores where it won’t sell anyway. Epic is trying to create an artificial monopoly where everyone uses Epic because the developers literally cannot sell the game anywhere else (at least for a time).

    Steam: Developers voluntarily restrict themselves to that single store out of convenience (99% of the customer base is there, why bother with another store). The customer base is there because the store is feature rich. Epic: Developers are artificially restricted to that single store. The customer base is there because they can’t get the game anywhere else.

    Given the above I predict that, unless Epic gets their Store feature equal to Steam (which won’t happen imo), Epic will have to continue forcing exclusivity indefinitely. The moment they stop forcing people to use their store their customers will migrate back to Steam for a better experience.

    MeanEYE, (edited )
    @MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

    That’s what I always said, why use Epic store? As a user you get worse treatment. Sure price is the same or they give you some discount but number of services offered is far from being on par with Steam. No family sharing, no refund policy, no cloud saves, no networking system, no streaming, no card collecting, no steam play. I might not use or desire all of those but some people do.

    The fact Epic had to resort to extremes like timed exclusives just meant I dropped those developers off of my list of wanted games as it only went to show they are willing to sacrifice your inconvenience and happiness for some extra money. For them it was probably making sure project succeeds but in the end I don’t care about them if they don’t care about me.

    CaptainAniki,

    deleted_by_author

    •
    rockerface,

    Indie games are a breath of fresh air in this day and age

    Smokeydope,
    @Smokeydope@lemmy.world avatar

    I loved my switch at the beginning in 2017 but it being nintendcucked ruined it for me. Terrible sales/overpriced games, also I refuse to pay just to have multiplayer and their half assed emulators. Steam deck is a godsend, someday ill work up the courage to eat the 600$ on one or wait until steam deck 2/pro/ultra/the deckening

    natryamar,

    Getting the 60th Wii u port 3 years into the switches lifespan drove me crazy as well. If you think that you would like the Steam Deck and that you would use it a lot then I would say just go for it. I use mine almost every day to play games and it has to be reaching a similar level of hours used to my switch in much less time.

    I don’t understand where the rumors of a steam deck 2 came from, (it may have been something they said just so people wouldn’t dismiss it as something they would abandon) but it just doesn’t make sense for them to come out with a new one. This thing is targeting around a ps4 game level spec and if the ps3 level graphics of the switch are anything to go by the next Nintendo console will probably be similar to the ps4 as well. This is going to be a direct competitor to said future Nintendo console, they just released it early for everyone to beta test it for them. Game consoles have about 6 year lifespans as well so I see this thing being relevant for years to come. They spent a lot of money on this and are selling it at a loss so I bet they want to get as many of them out there as possible. I bet we will see the OS get a general release and other handheld device makers start to release devices with the OS before we see another one from valve.

    As far as devs not making games that run well on it I honestly hope that as the userbase gets bigger that we may start to see more games made with the decks performance in mind. It would also be good for the low spec PC gamers in general as well. But there is such a massive backlog of great games on the steam store that I really do recommend you try this thing, you won’t regret it.

    Smokeydope, (edited )
    @Smokeydope@lemmy.world avatar

    Thanks for the reply, I was really tempted since it went for sale during the steam summer sale. My life circumstances are such that I can’t really justify the money on another game box. My switch still works, I have a decent laptop that can play many of my lower-hardware requirement games. I am currently doing off-grid living and that 600$ is better spent on survival necessities and quality of life improvements or just in my bank as emergency fund. If I were a teen again it would be a no-brainer but my time for gaming is less and less. Saying no to the deck this summer sale was one of the hardest and most responsible things i’ve ever done.

    natryamar,

    Waiting just means the games you want will only get cheaper! I bet they will have more ridiculous sales for the deck as time goes on as well. Good luck and I hope you can get the stuff you want soon. : )

    MeanEYE,
    @MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

    Can’t remember when was the last time I shelled out 60€ on a game. Indie titles are usually where the fun is at. Good story, acceptable graphics and awesome gameplay. I don’t need UHD mega giga textures to have fun.

    Dark_Arc,
    @Dark_Arc@social.packetloss.gg avatar

    I’m pretty sure they have the same refund policy as steam. They also do have a networking system (which I think even has interop with steam – the Bigfoot game tried to use it but it was very unpopular since it required steam gamers to link an epic account but it exists).

    Also pretty sure there are cloud saves but less confident on that one.

    And yeah, steam streaming and card collecting aren’t really all that important to me in particular, but I get that some people really like them.

    MeanEYE,
    @MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

    Similar refund policy, but not the same. Epic refund policy marks all the games with in-game currency and purchases as non-refundable. Am not sure about the rest and whether developer can set a game to be non-refundable. It seems they have worked on adding a lot of features, however they are still lagging a lot behind Steam and there are many more things than just cloud saves and refund although those are big features. Steam Play for example which allows Linux users to play any Windows game and by extension makes SteamDeck a possibility. That one is huge. Family sharing is also a big thing. Chat and voice communication, etc. There are plenty of those not implemented yet.

    brawleryukon,
    @brawleryukon@lemmy.world avatar

    Not only the same, but better. Epic will automatically just refund you the difference if a game you bought goes on sale within a certain period of time after your purchase (allegedly even beyond the two week refund window, although I haven’t been able to find any definitive statement of how long they watch it for). Just flat out, you get an email one day telling you they’ve credited back X amount of your purchase.

    Also pretty sure there are cloud saves but less confident on that one.

    There are. For more than four years now. The problem is that, just like with Steam, they can only put the option out there - it’s up to devs to actually implement it. And there are a lot of devs who haven’t done so, which lots of people interpret as EGS not having cloud saves at all.

    tehmics,

    I use so many of steams features it’s unfathomable to use any other launcher or even pirate anything because steam is so streamlined. Cloud saves, automatic local file transfers instead of redundant downloads, family share to my friends PC so half the time when I visit she’ll have already downloaded and played my new games. When I get there they’re just ready to go. Remote desktop to make any tweaks on my PC or casual gaming over stream. Big picture mode so I can lay back with a controller and chill, no futzing with m+kb UI. Steam input means I can easily drop in and out with any controllers.

    I just got a steam deck and while I could install another app store on it, I’ve entirely stuck with steam just for the UX. I don’t want to fuck with extra launchers and touchscreen bs.

    I just played a coop Windows game on a Linux based portable PC on a 4K TV with a $24 USB hub for video out, using an Xbox and ps5 controllers over Bluetooth. This was completely seamless and controller navigated. Steam is insanely good.

    neshura,
    @neshura@bookwormstory.social avatar

    If I priate anything I still end up adding it to Steam as a non-steam game just because I am dependant on Proton working. Even then the ootb experience is better since Steam handles actually setting up the Proton environment for me when I actually buy the game.

    natryamar,

    Last I tried using a Bluetooth controller it didn’t go very well, has the experience gotten better?

    tehmics,

    I didn’t have any issues. We did notice some input lag but disabling vsync helped a lot. Not sure if that was controller related

    natryamar,

    I tried to play Halo reach over Bluetooth a long while ago and when the rumble went off it would stop taking my input. Glad to hear your aren’t having any issues.

    beefcat,
    @beefcat@lemmy.world avatar

    it’s the paypal problem

    sellers everywhere fucking hate paypal

    but they all still use it because buyers fucking love paypal

    neshura,
    @neshura@bookwormstory.social avatar

    I’d say PayPal problem but in reverse, customers hate Epic but still have to put up with it to get to the exclusives.

    beefcat,
    @beefcat@lemmy.world avatar

    sort of. the fact that egs is still not profitable on its own merits and that developers still shuttle their games over to steam once exclusivity is up tells me that not enough customers are taking the bait.

    if being on egs didn’t mean taking a huge hit in total sales, developers would be putting games exclusively on it without uncle tim slapping them over the face with a bag of money

    SeeJayEmm,
    @SeeJayEmm@lemmy.procrastinati.org avatar

    I have 146 titles in my Epic library. I’ve never given them a penny and don’t plan on starting. I can’t be the only one.

    urshanabi,
    @urshanabi@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    I have maybe 2 dozen and I haven’t played a single one. I downloaded titles a few times, forgot about it, then went on and bought the game on steam.

    Carighan,
    @Carighan@lemmy.world avatar

    Oh that’s another really good point: Epic trained the consumers to open Epic weekly to get free games, then close it again. It’s a weird thing to be known for.

    Sure, had them cornering the sellers market worked out - unrealistic as it was in hindsight - then having the buyers already all have the store installed for the free games would have been a genius way of getting more and more people onto the store. But it did not, and now it has just cemented the Epic store as a place you do not spend money on!

    Swedneck,
    @Swedneck@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

    valve might be the closest thing i have ever seen to an actual benevolent dictator, even if said dictator is very lazy and only deigns to do anything significant once in a while.

    Alexstarfire,

    Don’t fix what ain’t broke.

    iamhangry,

    More like: out of sight, out of mind.

    Chailles,
    @Chailles@lemmy.world avatar

    I mean, the back button has been broken since basically the whole UI overhaul.

    Buddahriffic,

    There was a recent update that addressed the back button. Since then, I’ve noticed clicking games in my wishlist and then going back returns me to my scroll position and a few pages that were missing in the back button (like it would back past them) are now there.

    Chailles,
    @Chailles@lemmy.world avatar

    I’ve been told there’s been an update for the back button since like a day after the new UI was released. Doesn’t matter whether in Beta or Stable, it’s still broken for me such that I get sent back to the library.

    Not_Alec_Baldwin,

    In Gaben we trust.

    When he’s gone I assume it will go to shit.

    Swedneck,
    @Swedneck@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

    i said valve rather than gabe for a reason, gabe mostly leaves the company to its own devices at this point while he focuses on realizing holodeck technology or whatever the hell he’s doing now.

    hh93,

    That’s because you are not in a position to produce and sell a game.

    As a user it sure is the case but as a developer you are in a position that you either have to take their 30% cut or accept that you are selling way less

    The fact that pretty much immediately after epic launched their store steam lowered the cut for big publishers tells you that they are fully aware that 30% is too much to be reasonable but they completely could get away with that because Devs just didn’t have a choice.

    Because of epic that now changed since even if you don’t actually sell more games you at least can get a guaranteed profit as if you sold those games that you miss out on by not being on steam.

    Sure the way epic is doing it is not good but I really don’t see another way how a significant number of buyers would ever come to another store. That didn’t work for EA, that didn’t work for Ubisoft, that also didn’t work for GOG where you actually own the game without DRM and not just a license to play it as long as the server is allowing you.

    People are fundamentally lazy and hate changing their routines - that’s why forcing them into buying at your store is necessary if you want to get them to switch.

    MeanEYE,
    @MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

    I think you got the whole thing mixed up. Sure Valve takes a huge cut, but if game does poorly Valve earns less as well. So there’s an incentive from both parties to make sure game succeeds. But in the end Valve makes sure you as a consumer get your money’s worth, hence why they even added no questions asked refund policy. Policy which has resulted in more purchases than before, because risk of not liking the game is non-existent now.

    Epic on the other hand is forcing users to buy into their ecosystem by way of exclusives. Developers use this to make sure project succeeds even if it’s not good. That is to say they get the money regardless. But this model is not sustainable as Epic has to earn money at some point so number of exclusives will be lower and lower. At the same time they are encouraging developers to not try as hard to polish the game since they get the money regardless.

    Fundamentally approaches are completely different and Steam’s approach can’t fail because they cater to customer while Epic is just trying to force people away while offering subpar service. And whoever holds the money holds the power.

    systemglitch,

    Subpar is being generous.

    assassin_aragorn,

    It’s a really fascinating market dynamic. Steam is good to consumers, generally speaking, and offers features to that end. Family sharing is the wildest thing imaginable, since it’s formally letting customers share one purchase instead of each making one for two purchases. Their refund policy too is really, really nice.

    Valve has effectively chosen to be more enticing to the end user than to the seller. They’ve gathered up so many buyers that it’s foolish for sellers to not set up a shop there. A 30% cut of revenue is hefty, but like you said, that sets up a dynamic where both want the game to succeed. I suspect paying a monthly fee to remain listed on steam would end up worse for everyone.

    Gaben is one hell of a mastermind.

    MeanEYE,
    @MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

    Indeed. And it’s a system where everyone benefits. As opposed to currently popular philosophy of “milk it while you can” from big publishers.

    assassin_aragorn,

    It’s a healthy dynamic which could be better, but it being healthy for everyone is what keeps it afloat

    beefcat,
    @beefcat@lemmy.world avatar

    Because of epic that now changed since even if you don’t actually sell more games you at least can get a guaranteed profit as if you sold those games that you miss out on by not being on steam.

    how long do devs think this is sustainable?

    to me it seems like devs are trading long term sustainability for short term profitability. sure, your game Cracksnot was profitable because EGS paid out the butt to make it exclusive. now hardly anyone has played your game, how many people are going to get excited about Cracksnot 2 in a few years? will epic still be willing to pay you upfront for Cracksnot 2 exclusivity?

    if egs never really takes off (which so far, it hasn’t), eventually epic will cut their losses and stop throwing money at it.

    Cybersteel,
    @Cybersteel@lemmy.ml avatar

    That’s what everyone is doing nowadays. Trading long term “potential” for short term gains. Let’s face it, the earth isn’t gonna last forever, it’d be a neverending hellscape in like what 40 - 50 years. Better to enjoy it while you can by getting the most of what you need right now.

    taiyang,

    I dreamt once that there was a reliable, non-profit yet well funded community that hosted and distributed games with minimal take in an effort to spread gaming as art and history. They even kept a system agnostic achievement system that retroactively added steam, PlayStation and Xbox achievements in one place with community features.

    I’m not sure where I’m going with this. I have weird dreams, y’all!

    Dark_Arc,
    @Dark_Arc@social.packetloss.gg avatar

    Maybe if godot gets bigger something like that could spew out of its foundation.

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