Nah. I’m sorry, but fuck apartments. I was spending $22k a year. Apartment complex did a crap job clearing snow in the winter. My neighbors were disgusting. I had to walk across the complex to get to my laundry room, where the machines rarely worked. The AC wall units were expensive to run, and did little to cool the apartment. The downstairs neighbor’s front door slammed every time they closed it. The people next door would vacuum for an hour every night starting at 10pm. I got a $45 fine for hanging a beach towel over a chair on my balcony.
I mean shit, they decided to renovate the apartment beneath me, and turned off my heat and left for the weekend in the middle of winter. They turned off my water multiple times with no notice making me late for work. And then the construction workers stole my package before heading home.
I bought a house. Every time I pay my mortgage I build equity in my home. I have my own laundry room. I may have to clear the snow myself, but I have plenty of space to store a snow blower and shovels - something I could never do before. I can buy bulk sized non perishables too and save money, because I have plenty of space to store it. I can sleep at night without being awoken by my neighbors fucking to the sounds of Bob Marley. I can hang up a towel to dry without being fined for it. And if I need to do work, I can determine when or if the water is being turned off.
Oh, and renewing my lease would have seen me paying almost as much in rent as my mortgage payment. For what?
Yeah, try living in an impoverished town, where it’s the housing on the right, spread out like the housing on the left. There are, like, no jobs (none that are actually sustainable long-term for living in this economy), but they just leveled a huge area of forest for more low-income housing (AKA Projects)
A lot of people are pro-apartmemt before living in one, so here are some fun facts:
Apartments usually have a maintenance cost, that covers as little as possible while still costing a lot. You never really own the flat, the building company does.
You often have a communal garden; it’s looked after by the lowest bidding contractor. Not all flats have balconies, so you are unlikely to have your own.
Fear of fire and flooding - if someone else messes up, your stuff is toast/soaked. Insurance companies love that extra risk, it gives them an excuse to charge more.
No flat has good sound proofing - the baby screaming downstairs at 5am and the thunder of the morbidly obese person upstairs going to the bathroom at 1am will denote your new sleep schedule (i.e. disturbed)
I hope you’re in for deliveries - apartments have no safe spots to leave things.
You will not be able to afford a flat with the same floor space as a house. I’m sorry, welcome to your new coffin.
Good luck drying your laundry (spoiler, your living room is going to have a laundry rack).
Good luck owning a bike (it’s either the bike or your laundry, take your pick).
Vocal intimacy becomes a community event.
Living in a flat is a pile of little miseries grouped together.
That is pretty pessimistic. I never lived in a big block of appartments but in 8 flat/building houses. We have thick walls, so flooding and noise isnt really a problem. We know our neighbours, they even take deliveries inside (into the stairway) so they dont get stolen from outsiders. We have a dedicated bike-room downstairs, with a dedicated bikeramp from the outside, every house in the area has this. We have a communal parkinggarage with electric charging-spaces.
The cost of living i cannot really compare, the inability of repairing something or our own (as we are renting) is a negative. The fire risk is something I have never thought about but is a fair point I guess.
You’ve never lived in a large apartment building but you think the issues people have with them are pessimistic?? I wouldn’t have a problem with a townhome but apartments definitely have some trade offs
They might have fixed the cost issues to an extent during the Soviet Union, but that is about it.
Everything they list applies and more. They are generally small, 90m^2 is generally the biggest sizes, with some exceptions, they have nearly no parking space because when they were built, parking was not a huge consideration. There is very little yard space usually, not really anywhere decent for kids to play unless the building or community have forked up for it (spoiler, they favor parking spaces). The walls are in fact fairly thin, the floors are often creaky as hell.
Plumbing is old, metallic and corroded / clogged. Water pressures up top are abysmal. Don’t even get me started on electrical, the people who built them did not give a hoot unless the building was meant for more than common workers. You can literally hit a live wire in the middle of the wall while hanging a painting, because, again, the people building it didn’t give a hoot and often layed wires using the shortest path not rational right angles.
Many of these houses are in a subpar state. Like okay, they wont probably crumble, but heat insulation is near non-existant, leading to high heating costs. The elevators are tiny, many of them smell like piss, accessibility for disabled people was never considered, nor was access in general - moving in large furniture, or bringing down people on stretchers (EMS) is often a PITA.
And all of this leads to a huge issue they didn’t explicitly outline - getting shit done for your building, is often impossible. One such building I lived it had a resident who was pushing for a full renovation, he had surveyed other houses that have done this across the city, did the math and presented how doing this would lead us to pay less overall, even with the loan considered, than before, with higher property value and a nicer property to boot. Some 60% refused to even take it as far as getting an actualy consultant involved.
Apartments works very different in your country. For me it’s like this:
Building companies build apartments, usually they are owned by whoever paided them. That can be a private company, it can also be state owned, a cooperative, or a collection of privates. It’s not uncommen to buy single apartments here. Depending on the constellation you have a say in what is what done in what way. However: cost like garbage collection, tax,… Are always there. No matter if you live in an apartment or single home.
Same as 1. Depends on the constellation. Many people living in apartments have a garden plot somewhere else. There are places (close to nature, away from streets) where you can rent a garden and have a place of piece. Quieter than your lawn next to the next house.
If apartments are that more dangerous then insurance companies will want more money, sure. As far as I looked for my neighborhood the cost seems to be related to the living area, I. E. Same size same price. So it does not has to be more expensive.
Of course can you have sound proofness. Usually here walls are massive and not made out of paper.
And houses do? Isn’t it a thing that people steel packages from your doorway/garden in the US? But nevertheless: usually I was friends with other people in the house who could get my parcels for me, like the elderly lady on the ground floor. It does not get safer than that.
Yes? Flats are obviously cheaper for the same size as a house. You will not find 500m^2+ appartements, but >200m^2 can be found. How big are your houses usually?
Dryer? Balcony? A lot of apartments have an extra room in the basement, or a sun roof.
Bike or laundry? What are you on about? A lot of places have an extra bike room. Most of the time you have also your own compartment in the cellar. Bigger apartment complexes here are also required to have room for cars, I.e.you can rent a garage if you really want more space.
Same as 4.
I am really not sure if you are trolling or houses work differently in your area.
I’ve lived in a flat, a student dorm, 2 terrace houses, and a detached house.
The flat is better than the student dorm and one of the terrace houses. It’s larger than only the student dorm.
The list is a comparison to the decent terrace and the detached.
I’ve not had theft issues, just polite refusal to leave the package due to too much foot traffic (solved by a kind elderly neighbour). A dryer is great, if your energy bills are reasonable - the rest of us use trying lines/racks.
Not all flats have built in facilities - indeed not all flats began life as flats. The best of flats is still worse than a detached in terms of noise, space, and privacy, however it can outstrip the worst terrace. However, that’s a matter of design, which could be solved by a government that wasn’t drunk at the wheel…
Yeah, these issues are all really weird. I live in a flat with one other person, it’s two stories so there’s one person in the top flat and one in the bottom, they’re in a terrace and we each have our own entrance. It’s nice we have plenty of space and a decently large living room and bedrooms (though annoyingly one room is much larger than the other, I suppose because it is for families.) We also have a small bit of fenced of space outside and most have a full garden space.
This is in a council estate in the UK, so equivalent of a “project” but the whole area is very nice, there’s lots of grassy spots to take our dog on and there a decent amount of trees around. We have both just been really happy here, much more than I was living in a house before which had no outside space, no trees or grass for a good 50 metres or so and there was more crime despite not being a council estate where as where I am now is. I mean a house is nice I can get why people would prefer living in one, but apartments/flats are nice too.
Oh yeah and we don’t really ever hear our neighbours either.
I live in an apartment. I want to live in a house.
Cunt upstairs neighbour smoking cancer sticks on the balcony, making my room smell like shit when he does it, dumbass neighbour to my right who phones some other dumbass at 6 in the morning, screaming into his phone, waking me up. No garden, can’t have a cat or a dog.
I don’t want to live in a suburb where I am forced to use a car, but you can live in a house and still be able to get anywhere you want without a car.
But that’s only because other people live in apartments. If everyone gets the privilege of living in their own house, than it won’t be economical to have everything you need in walking distance. And you can have shitty house neighbors as well.
Population growth is in fact slowing down and have been doing so for quite some time. But we’ll eventually run into the problem where there won’t be enough working age people to take care of the elders.
Many countries (nearly all of the developed countries) are having too few kids to maintain their population and it can only be increased/maintained through immigration. Most experts believe that we will top out at around 10.5 billion in 2100 and then there will be a decline.
People are having less kids, it’s just that older people also live longer these days, which means it takes longer for the population to decline, still, is happening in a lot of countries, for example, Japan lost 200,000 inhabitants last year due to low fertility rates
A lot of apartments in Europe have a communal garden, or you can simply rent a plot of garden nearby for larger projects, or use your balcony for small things like herbs.
Idk what you mean with plumbing windows/basement second levels but there would be an underground garage where you can charge your EV
You also don’t rely as much on solar panels because apartments are already so much more energy efficient. They are cooler in summer and warmer in winter
So buy more land and it’s potentially a distance from your house. Communal gardens are good in theory but in practice they are far harder than just having a garden with a nice wee raised bed. Need some lettuce pop outside and get it. Unlikely you’ll bus/walk drive to the communal to grab a few leaves of something.
There wouldn’t be no. Maybe in more modern builds but all the flats I’ve rented have been 100s of years old. No ability to change interior and no luxury parking garage. Barely any parking.
If you own a house you can do what you want with it. Want to build a basement, crack on. Want to get double glazing, put in grey water. Sure. Can’t do shit in a building without building getting involved.
Fuck knows where you’ve live but no. Maybe modern ones are but old ones are freezing in winter, poorly insulated and hod awful in summer.
I’d rather live in a city or town with mixed use development, walkable neighbourhoods and functional public transport instead of suburbian nightmare pictured in #1.
There’s also townhouses that are a good compromise between urban density and home ownership/garden usage while still being more energy efficient than standard family homes.
Bullshit. Townhouses are the epitome of corporate shite. You clearly have never been to a townhouse or have some kinda stake in them.
Townhouse with zero garden and 3 to 5 where a single house used to be. Done don’t even have parking. All the negatives of a flat without any benefits. Clearly you are a shill for a dystopian nightmare. Do you perchance live in one of these monstrosities? Maybe you’d be happy for the plevs to live in a shanty town but as long as they are separate from your house ?
It is so weird reading this thread when I live in a flat and have basically non of the issues any of you’re describing. I know it’s a cliche but I honestly think this is just a US vs Europe thing, where mid to high density housing here is actually built to be, you know, good, where as in the US everything is poorly constructed with no amenities so you just think all of those things are intrinsic qualities of that type of housing lol. Kind of sad.
Right. Well regardless non of the significant problems you have I have experienced so I don’t think they’re intrinsic properties of apartments/flats/high-medium density housing.
I’m disregarding them because as I say they’re not intrinsic properties of that type of housing. I prefer living where I do now than most of the actual houses I lived in because they had no garden space, but that doesn’t mean intrinsically houses don’t have outside spaces. When people are advocating for more higher density housing they aren’t talking about building them in the worst possible way I don’t think.
I won’t claim apartments are for everyone. There’s no denying that you just cannot have the kind of yard that a detached or semi-detached house offers. At best, some apartments or neighbourhoods have community gardens and it’s also more common that you’d have access to broader parks (which you can’t garden in, but you can enjoy city managed gardens and generally have more space for activities).
I personally don’t find privacy a concern with well made apartments. Well made ones have good sound isolation. I don’t usually hear my neighbours. But admittedly not every apartment is well made.
You can buy apartments (usually in the form of a condo), so you can make certain kinds of improvements. Yeah, it’s not quite the same level of customization (like windows as you mention). You certainly can make plumbing changes (e.g., if you want a nicer bathtub), though there may be some reasonable rules to protect the rest of the building from being flooded if you don’t use a licensed professional.
Many modern apartments do have places to charge EVs. You’ll probably pay extra for them, but they’re likely to become the norm for every parking space as EVs become more prominent. But one of the biggest boons of apartments is not needing a car in the first place! With detached homes, you simply can’t have everyone close enough together for efficient public transit. With apartments, you can live in desirable areas and close to high frequency transit stations without having to be rich.
Some newer apartments do have solar panels. I wouldn’t be surprised if most people saved money on electricity with apartments, though. Home solar panels take a while to break even. Newer apartments usually have central boilers and chillers, which massively reduce the cost of heating and AC, which are very energy intensive.
Again, I won’t claim it’s for everyone. Some people really are better off dealing with the downsides of having a house (which typically will mean being far away from everything and either having to drive or having mediocre transit). But I would argue that for most people, the downsides of apartments are simply worth it. How many people actually want to change plumbing or windows? How many want to garden (beyond the amount a balcony allows)? Don’t forget the benefits, too. Stuff like living in more desirable areas (especially where you no longer need a car – that’s a massive expense removed), having amenities like a gym, pool, or rec room, if renting, not having to deal with maintenance, and better views.
I’m also not sure how well off you are, but honestly, for many people of my generation, the only way they can afford a place to live is with either an apartment or living in undesirable areas. Detached homes in the cities people want to live in are straight up out of reach for many younger people. Or as John Oliver put it in an episode about HOAs:
“Our main story tonight concerns home ownership, so if you are under 35, honestly, this story isn’t for you,” Oliver said. “It’ll never be for you. You will never own a home. Sorry, that is the deal that you made when you decided to be born after 1988.”
so if you are under 35, honestly, this story isn’t for you
I realize it’s supposed to be a joke, but just reminding you not to take this at face value. Friends of mine making 60k a year have afforded a house just fine through my state’s first time home buyer’s program (guaranteed a loan on your first home at low rates and little down), and I’m likely buying one next year. It’s not all doom and gloom.
I won’t claim apartments are for everyone. There’s no denying that you just cannot have the kind of yard that a detached or semi-detached house offers. At best, some apartments or neighbourhoods have community gardens and it’s also more common that you’d have access to broader parks (which you can’t garden in, but you can enjoy city managed gardens and generally have more space for activities).
Topless sun bathing? Letting my dog out to the garden. Working from home in the garden. Have a bbq. These are possible at local parks but with some planning and then requiring a vehicle for this purpose. Also local parks can be closed and they can be commandeered for events. Usually in summer months. Not ideal.
I personally don’t find privacy a concern with well made apartments. Well made ones have good sound isolation. I don’t usually hear my neighbours. But admittedly not every apartment is well made.
Houses can be secured with fences and bushes. Trees grown and other measures. Apartments are what they are. Maybe you could get sound proofing.
You can buy apartments (usually in the form of a condo), so you can make certain kinds of improvements. Yeah, it’s not quite the same level of customization (like windows as you mention). You certainly can make plumbing changes (e.g., if you want a nicer bathtub), though there may be some reasonable rules to protect the rest of the building from being flooded if you don’t use a licensed professional.
Obviously you’d need to get approval but yes you lose a lot of customization.
Many modern apartments do have places to charge EVs. You’ll probably pay extra for them, but they’re likely to become the norm for every parking space as EVs become more prominent. But one of the biggest boons of apartments is not needing a car in the first place! With detached homes, you simply can’t have everyone close enough together for efficient public transit. With apartments, you can live in desirable areas and close to high frequency transit stations without having to be rich.
Unfortunately we don’t really get as many options for modern blocks. I’m talking about current available stock and what about rural living. Not everyone wants to be city centre based. I’d prefer to have the complete opposite.
Some newer apartments do have solar panels. I wouldn’t be surprised if most people saved money on electricity with apartments, though. Home solar panels take a while to break even. Newer apartments usually have central boilers and chillers, which massively reduce the cost of heating and AC, which are very energy intensive.
Having something large would be very beneficial and having solar would be fantastic but it likely wouldn’t be big enough to power the whole building. This is definitely a pretty positive boon. Probably make things like plumbing and heat more efficient with smaller footprint.
Rural zones would be the complete opposite but with off grid capabilities like septics tanks solar and composting. You’d have a different smaller system at work.
Again, I won’t claim it’s for everyone. Some people really are better off dealing with the downsides of having a house (which typically will mean being far away from everything and either having to drive or having mediocre transit). But I would argue that for most people, the downsides of apartments are simply worth it. How many people actually want to change plumbing or windows? How many want to garden (beyond the amount a balcony allows)? Don’t forget the benefits, too. Stuff like living in more desirable areas (especially where you no longer need a car – that’s a massive expense removed), having amenities like a gym, pool, or rec room, if renting, not having to deal with maintenance, and better views.
Absolutely. Some people will absolutely benefit to this kinda system but as stated it’s not for everyone. No options to grow your own food, in this scenario you are entirely reliant on others. Something I hate. If I have control then I can improve or destroy my life. Been forced to be reliant on others is a complete disaster. Have you been outside? The level of entitlement and selfish is obscene. Once one turns the others likely will turn and the ecosystem stops working. Communes are a thing but they are pretty small.
I have a home gym( few weights bench and squat capabilities) don’t need anything more. I prefer dealing with maintenance as I’m in control. I can buy good quality and make sure it’s correctly fitted and I’m the one maintaining it. I think for a lot they are happy to have someone else deal with this but it’s usually cost affective and so that can come back to bite you.
I’m also not sure how well off you are, but honestly, for many people of my generation, the only way they can afford a place to live is with either an apartment or living in undesirable areas. Detached homes in the cities people want to live in are straight up out of reach for many younger people. Or as John Oliver put it in an episode about HOAs:
I’m incredibly poor and likely will buy a house soon. A house I will hate and resent until my dying breath. I don’t know your generation but I’m 32. Incredibly privileged to live with my partners parents. Rent here is 2k plus a month for 1 bedroom. Was evicted from our last rent because we bought a dog. Was worty it but lost my job and had to relocate because of it.
I will live in undesirable areas because it’s all I will be able to afford. I joke that all we can afford is a shack somewhere but that is our lot in life. Gotta love where the jobs are and fight developers and “investors” to get something.
“Our main story tonight concerns home ownership, so if you are under 35, honestly, this story isn’t for you,” Oliver said. “It’ll never be for you. You will never own a home. Sorry, that is the deal that you made when you decided to be born after 1988.”
Community supported agriculture (CSA), community gardens/allotments.
No privacy
I guess this sentiment stems from US-American toilet stalls, but apartments have walls and doors. I heard HOAs, neighbours are very good at privacy in suburban housing.
No ability to get solar panels.
‘Balkonkraftwerke’, roughly balcony power plants, are solar panels that can be installed to a regular outlet given the right electricity meter.
No room for improvement.
Ugly version: No hurry, landlords do that to you.
Slightly better version: House community decides consensually.
Better version: Housing cooperative helps you within limits.
No EV charging.
a) Likely untrue, especially with newer buildings. b) Likely unnecessary, because there’s little need due to bicycles, public transport or car sharing and all services within short reach. Electric bicycles, cargo bicycles exist.
Do car sharing allow dogs ? Babies that spit up or require changing? No. No they don’t. All for a car less future but that’s not now.
I want a garden I can sit out in when I’m working from home. Do you understand dogs ? Children? Don’t want have to trapes down tona local park with other people. Wanna sit outside in my garden with my trees plants and whatever with my tits out.
Privacy in my own space to play music and chill the fuck out. Not a local park, especially ones that are closed when events are on. Nope. No thanks.
Literally never seen a community garden working. In theory sure, in real life. Not a chance. As above.
Privacy isn’t just noise. It’s actually not having people inside your home. So you can play music or whatever and a person doesn’t complain. Not taking a shit. Walking about topless or naked without people all around you.
A balcony solar panel will power fuck all. Maybe a few hours as the sun hits just right and then what ? You are entitled to your opinion as am I.
You seem to be living in a utopia which would makes this apartment vs home moot.
I use car sharing primarily for cargo (vans). I don’t know much about the life with children, but I see plenty of parents with young children in public transport.
Community garden/Allotment
Maybe I didn’t explain it right. This is what I meant. Those come in very different sizes, structures and rules (In some you can even live, but not register). It is mostly possible to install or grow visual protection.
Balcony PV
It is possible to install energy storage, but yes, a single balcony is unlikely to have more than 1kWp. I don’t have a balcony, but I’d install a balcony PV, if I had one. Apartments are more energy efficient, but not that much.
Nudity, Music
I’m mostly nude when I’m home, so I get wanting to be have a space to be free outside. For all I know, visual protection clashes with many HOAs, or not?
Apartment neighbours probably see and hear each other less than suburbanites, depending on the age of the building and its inhabitants.
Not hearing or seeing other people even when you go onto the street is a bit of a rich request. Maybe I didn’t understand.
Yes there are plenty parents that use public transportation. Now I don’t have any. Point blank. Zero. So how does that work ? Public transportation is the future but currently it takes you to a few places. If you aren’t going there then you’re screwed.
Yup I know what am allotment is. My argument was that they aren’t near you. They are away where homes aren’t. Do you need to commute to them. You can’t really walk with compost seedlings plants equipment. Also depends on distance. Great idea but complicated in real world situations.
Pv on a balcony will generate heehaw. A single cell what 400 watt array. Can only be used when sun hits it just right. Great idea to charge a phone or something but bugger all else.
Fuck hoas. Nothing else to add to that. I see no one where I live. Pleasant. Very much enjoy the solitude and not dealing with people standing outside my house. Especially with my nudity dog and working from home.
You’ve never lived in a subterranean basement apartment that doesn’t even have windows, have you? Fucking terrible but at $3,000 a month that’s all I can afford.
I won’t consider living in apartment buildings unless they have good soundproofing and proper open spaces. I don’t want to be cramped in with noisy neighbors and have no privacy.
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