While I agree generally, just check for a handicap license plate first, please.
My mom is disabled, and we have to use a pick up truck for hauling her power chair (too heavy for a lift gate). They don’t make small trucks anymore. We drive a Nissan frontier, so not as ridiculous as this, but still a large truck. She has to use a step to get into it. Our other car is a small SUV, and we pull a trailer when we need to take her wheelchair. I’m all for shaming people for driving gas guzzling monstrosities, but it’s really important to check the tag first. When we first moved to our current location, the nearby city had a group that would slash tires on oversized cars. We got signs printed explaining, because honestly, if it weren’t for the whole wheelchair situation, I’d be down for that. Lol. I wish they made an electric vehicle capable of hauling her chair that we could afford. Shit sucks. :(
And it really does. It’s damn near impossible to afford an actual wheelchair van, and the only options outside of that are SUVs and pickups. And if you want anything newer than 25 years, it’s gonna be absolutely enormous. We got lucky when a friend had a decent running 2002 CRV. It’s “small,” at least when compared to most SUVs, but capable of pulling a trailer.
Yeah, you still need to transport items, and people that do things with their hands, but surely in most first world countries, these things are a minority of road traffic.
If you can get those chokepoints out the way, from dystopian 10 lane traffic jams to an overcrowded tube train, everything else would run so much smoother.
That didn’t stop people before cars. Back then people built small railways if we are talking about construction.
We wouldn’t be having this conversation if it weren’t for vehicles like mine keeping up the internet infrastructure up.
There’s also no fucking way you going to put train tracks everywhere to keep up infrastructure. That sounds really fucking stupid
They need specialized equipment. They need heavy equipment.
This statement makes me feel like I’m responding to a 14 yr old with no life experience. Not even going to bother answering it.
A car is a car. Another motor doesn’t turn car into magic.
Electric vehicles have no emissions so there’s no reason people can’t use them specifically for work.
PS: You can respond but I’m not going to bother with you. There’s no point in having a discussion with someone with illrational and militant about their ideals
They also need to get to stores and see friends and family. Asking people to go back to insular homebound living for farm living seems unreasonable.
Another motor doesn’t turn car into magic.
However, if electric, it’s no exhaust, options for flexible energy sources, and hopefully long lived and recyclable batteries. If you are more upset about cars getting in the way of walking, then enjoy the walkable communities that exist today. Unfortunately they tend to be pricey.
If you can train an AI to take the stream of nonsense I am given on a daily basis, and not only turn it into software but also the software they needed rather than what they actually described, then that AI is fucking welcome to my job…
So you expect us to live in a virtual pod with a treadmill and grow all of our own food? And collect rainwater?
Edit: I’m not saying we shouldn’t reduce our need for freight. Growing food in your backyard (half of my yard is good production) reduces the need for freight emissions. And I cycle to work. But drive or fly on holidays, I wish we had a more reliable train network.
How far and how often is the key, on a well planned city people should live close to their jobs and recreational areas, taking away people commuting to work and grouping people with similar destinations together you can solve traffic and give people more mobility.
They said transporation, not freight. I think they mean you can access everything on foot. But just for your heresay against the pod, your pod was made 10% smaller and your treadmill was made 10% faster.
You make a good point but it’s hard to agree. I don’t like home, and would prefer not to work in my own home. I want to see the world, I like to travel. Perhaps if my life had more social mobility I wouldn’t be so starved for literal mobility. I have a car, could go drive anywhere. But it’s not real freedom.
You still need to drive to do all these things, that’s often a considerable distance though if you live in suburban areas since everything is far away.
One argument that keeps coming up in favor of cars that the United States is big. Well, if it’s big, we have plenty of room to build things close to where people live. It’s only zoning laws that force things to be unnecessarily far away.
Yes that was my point, not that we need cargo trams.
And it’s not just US that has this issue although there is taken to the extreme.
Many suburban areas in Europe have the same issues but the advantage is that many of them were built around small villages that they have ballooned so there was something that could give local services for residents already.
Basically in countries with more micromobility, they have smaller grocery stores. There will be one on every corner and you can just walk to it.
I see you mentioned suburbs. Yeah. The thing keeping shops and homes far apart in that case is zoning laws. And also building code dictating single family housing. In a more dense suburb in amsterdam or chicago you might have some rowhouse apartments but the first floor will be for shops, and one of those shops willcbe your nearest grocery store.
Those super long electric busses will become more popular than trains. They are muuch cheaper to get. You can just send in a new one in case the first one breaks down, etc.
Though we also cant all live nrar these “train stops”?
What needs to happen first is fuel price needs to be so high that people are incentivized to
a) switch to public transit no matter how shitty it is because they just can’t afford a car anymore
b) start public transit companies because there is money to be made and the oil lobbies don’t have enough money anymore to lobby effectively
My guess is before 2050 nobody will really get anything done because the oil lobby is just too powerful. Would be great though.
What needs to happen first is fuel price needs to be so high that people are incentivized to
Absolutely. The fossil fuel industry recieves billions upon billions of dollars in subsidies every year. Why in the actual fuck are we still paying for something that is actively killing us? It makes no sense. All of the subsidies to fossil fuels needs to be re-routed towards public transportation and green energy.
making consumables more expensive just makes them cheaper for the rich. poor people in areas with inadequate public transit will largely just keep driving and become poorer (maybe some of them will switch to the inadequate public transit, then they’ll be even poorer, and it likely won’t improve the transit systems either).
tax the rich in proportion to their wealth., spend it on better public interest transport infrastructure
Those markets can’t run on the rich alone. And yeah it will make rural poor people poorer. That’s actually also the goal. Urban sprawl should be stopped. Why do people need to build houses and villages out in bumfuck nowhere and then complain when amenities and authorties are shitty out there? These people should imo be forced to make a hard decision because if they can’t afford gas anymore they will move closer to a city since the move is more affordable than paying for gas. Hence prevention of sprawl and reducing of gas use. The only people that can stay are the ones that a) are rich and b) require it for their work (e.g. farmers) or c) ones that can work locally without driving around.
I totally agree that urban sprawl sucks, and should be stopped. a much more direct and fair way to do this would be to remove zoning restrictions that only allow building single family homes (instead of any higher-density housing) in most urban parts of north america, and remove minimum parking requirements for businesses – and hope that the cultural shift propagates to other places where these car-dependent designs have taken hold.
secondly, calling people needing transport a “market” seems like part of the same faulty thinking where public services need to turn a profit. taxing the rich could absolutely pay for a lot more public transport: before the Beeching cuts in the 1960s, the UK had around twice as many passenger railway lines – this was also at a time when the top rate of income tax there was 83%, as opposed to 45% now.
lastly, maybe think about who rich people exploited in order to get their (your?) money before proposing policies that explicitly aim to make poor people poorer, while letting the rich continue to live where they (you?) please
100% depends on where you’re going and how far journeys are.
For a small inner city area, a subway is great. For a larger urban area, a tram system. For intercity travel, trains. Out in a rural area, buses would be the way, although more remote locations would need government subsidies to be even remotely functional, and even then it may resemble on demand taxis rather than a scheduled bus service.
No single solution will get you all the way there.
No single solution will get you all the way there.
Except for the car, which is why it’s such a popular choice. Also no need to worry about catching the next thing, or buying the right tickets, you just get in and go.
I haven’t heard of any solution or combination of solutions that would be convenient and work in most cities.
Yep there’s nothing else as good as having your own vehicle to freely travel wherever you want to on your own schedule and in relative privacy. The rest of y’all can enjoy your trains as much as you want, but there’s no train or bus that comes out to my house in the woods so I’m going to keep driving my car for the foreseeable future. After that it will probably be an electric SUV that I keep driving. I’ll charge my car from my solar power at home and be energy independent.
No, I’m saying there’s a huge difference between a 15 foot turning radius and a 400 foot turning radius. Trying to put trains in the existing 50 foot x 50 foot road intersections is not going to work without moving a lot of buildings.
You’d been trams,not trains. Trains are great at covering long distance quickly, but if they have to navigate tight turns and stop every few minutes then they’ll be pointless.
Not sure why people aren’t talking more about busses here, it would make way more sense to utilize busses for local travel.
The distinction between tram, train and subway is not relevant. There are full trains navigating Paris for example, but also tram and subways. They are all very good, and you can navigate the city without ever taking a bus.
Those super long electric busses will become more popular than trains.
Though heavy batteries are bad for energy efficiency and big capacity batteries are long to charge. Well, it can be solved by constantly charging them. This also allows to reduce required capacity, thus reducing weight. Constant charging most efficiently can be done by using wires. Oh, wait. I just reinvented trolley.
Though we also cant all live nrar these “train stops”?
A huge problem with public transportation is safety and usability for small children, the elderly, and people with disabilities or who are sick. All these people often can’t use bikes or scooters. They have problems with having to wait standing and constantly out of order escalators and elevators.
I don’t own a car and live in a place with relatively good public transportation. That’s the biggest problem I see, next to how badly organised it is (at least here in Germany).
American here, I have a disabled family member. Cars are ultimately harder on them because they physically cannot lift themselves into a car while also stowing their 200lbs wheelchair.
A bus or train doesn’t have that problem and are therefore better.
And the more walk able the area the better because it makes it far easier. I’m sure there are disabled and elderly people who have an easier time using cars. But to say in a broad sweeping generalization that it’s better for all disabled and elderly people is a mistake. Cars should not be the first go to for a solution.
And kids can’t even use cars. They are dependent on public transportation and the walkability in their area.
It’s just a problem that needs to be fixed and is rarely mentioned (if at all). Especially the unreliable elevators + escalators.
Additionally, many trams and busses here have narrow stairs to enter or a huge gap to the floor. Some bus drivers refuse to help people in wheelchairs, they will just claim the bus is too full so they don’t need to build the ramp. For the trams, there’s no way to get in with a wheelchair.
Ironically, these were meant to have enough space for at least one wheelchair. But the entrance is not friendly, for various reasons.
I have a mild disability and often can’t use the public transport because I struggle with stairs. Than I have to wait for a tram with a new model or walk around the city to a stop with no stairs.
They still build crossings like these and call it “modernized” …
For kids the biggest problem is that in a lot of vehicles the stop isn’t announced. And when the bus is (too) full they can’t see the monitors or out of the windows. (That’s a problem for all very short people I guess.)
I have more trouble with cars in my day to day life than with the issues of public transit. I just wanted to add that public transit has to be done better. But if you dare to criticise it people lose their minds here. And pretend you are against public transit and a car fetishist. -.-
It seems so odd to me that the transit doesn’t have accessibility for those in scooters or wheelchairs. In nearly every city in Canada I’ve been to, their underfunded bus systems all have a wheelchair access door and systems to lower the bus for easier access.
A lot of the busses have it here, but not all. It also depends if you are lucky enough the bus driver is actually helping.
For the trams it’s worse. To safe money they want to wait until the old trams get decommissioned, even when they are hard or impossible to use for disabled people. They also still build crossings made out of stairs, with no other way to reach the other side of the track unless you want to take a huge detour. Just because it’s cheap.
Germany loves their cars more than people realise…
Maybe you could try to get people in your communities to take pictures of these difficulties and write to their politicians how it is inadequate service. Perhaps there could be retrofitting done to the existing services and new regulations made for new devlopments. It seems wrong for transit not to service people with mobility issues, they can often be the ones who can most benefit from it.
The skybridge would be required to be made accessible in the USA, regardless of whether its public or private. There are very limited exceptions to ADA requirements - the second the private company spent money “modernizing” a station without installing accessibility aids, they’d have opened themselves up to a lawsuit to compel them to make the station accessible.
I would imagine that Germany is no different that a lot of Western European countries in thinking it is better than the US (because it IS in a lot of ways). Would “we treat the disabled worse than Americans do” effectively trigger German national ego toward change? So long as you keep the convo focused on accessibility and not universal healthcare ;)
I don’t know why it would matter how it is any other country? I’ve only really heard that in a private conversation, like “I was in XY for vacation and they had better whatever”. But never as a political argument lol
Perhaps if it’s a comparison to a direct neighbour like Austria or Switzerland since they are similar and a lot of Germans move there.
Sorry, it seemed like that’s what you were implying.
Additionally, many trams and busses here have narrow stairs to enter or a huge gap to the floor.
It seems like there is quite a bit of difference in the construction of busses/trains between our countries which was causing us to talk past each other. For reference, here is a standard bus entrance:
I know there are some train/tram systems that aren’t as good as this, and it isn’t the standard, but it should be.
They still build crossings like these and call it “modernized”
Yeah that’s some bullshit.
For kids the biggest problem is that in a lot of vehicles the stop isn’t announced.
Here that’s not so much of a problem. All busses have voice announcements and an LED display for the next stop. I’m not quite sure about the trains though because there are basically none in my city.
And when the bus is (too) full they can’t see the monitors or out of the windows. (That’s a problem for all very short people I guess.)
That’s not too hard of a problem at least, as you can run more busses on a line to deal with overcrowding.
You are destroying my fantasy that everything in Western Europe is better. But this would be extremely unlikely to have happened in the US in this day and age - the Americans With Disabilities Act (“ADA”) would have required the station (be it public or private) to have reasonable accomodations for the disabled. In Florida, for example, PalmTran stations would have an elevator on either side of the tracks to get you onto the skybridge.
I think people have a somewhat narrow view on countries in Western Europe. Every country is very diverse. It makes a huge difference whether you are in Bavaria, Brandenburg or Hamburg, etc. These are all in Germany but parts of the law can be different.
I live in Nordrhein Westfalen where it is okay if there is any alternative for disabled people. For example, you could drive to another station which has an elevator and than use the bus to come back. ( ་ ⍸ ་ )
I guarantee you, you have universal healthcare, and every one of those provinces. And very little issue with mass shooting. Or a legal system that keeps a significant portion of your minority population from being able to vote
You should make a complete new thread discussing these issues. Fuck Cars shouldn’t be only about moving towards public transportation, but also about making sure that public transportation is good. I have a lot of trouble using buses too, so it is only sensible to bring up the issue to make sure that solutions include everyone.
Elderly people use electric mobility scooters at Disney literally all the time. They’re pretty great for the elderly so long as there’s accessability ramps everywhere.
Escalators and elevators being out of service seems like an issue of lack of investment in public transit.
And cities can be built around public transit and micromobility while still allowing cars. Generally, you’ll have better access for emergency vehicles, and you can do the same for people with disabilities.
I feel like people misunderstand my post. That it is a lack of investment is 100 % true. I want more investment and better public transport. People here seem to think I want to have cars, but that’s not my point?!
One of the leading causes of death for children in North America is from cars. Well funded and built transit should be accessible to all in their urban areas. Stops should have sheltered waiting areas with adequate and maintained seating. Good maintanence and funding would reduce equipment failures in elevators and other equipment. Ideally we densify around this transit as well which would help to reduce travel distances for people with movement disabilties and promote walkability. 95% of the time well designed and funded transit paired with good urban density and zoning will be more accessible to those with disabilities than private vehicle ownership.
Federalism is the key impediment to a sensible transportation policy, though. Corpo stakeholders drive sprawl. Developers have legislatures captured to a degree that exceeds even the gun lobby. 50 different state governments, with thousands of local governments, with a federal government that is unable to plan beyond the next election - the US is fucked. There are way too many entry points for bad faith actors to wreck a good plan. More opportunities for direct democracy and recall could help, plus rank-choiced voting, plus dosing the water with Wellbutrin to turn off people’s worry about supernatural bullshit, and we might get somewhere.
That’s definitely not a problem everywhere. The buses we use in Canada are very disability friendly and we have programs to teach kids how to ride the bus alone. We have bike racks on the front of our buses too, so we can combine modes of transportation.
The biggest problem with public transit over here is lack of funding and infrastructure. The bus system is intentionally kept shitty here so that people will opt to buy cars where possible.
Here the public transit was sold to private companies by the government. It still costs a huge sum of money but they have less strict laws when it comes to accessibility. The government is very much a boot licker of the car industry here and Germany in general has a weird car culture.
“Barely functioning” is good enough for public transport, that seems to be the overall attitude, even in the general population.
People here have no trouble walking to stops and bikes / scooters are common, so the premises are there. But instead of taking the final leap and improving public transportation so that more people switch, they are currently moving backwards it seems.
That’s nice, not everyone lived in the city as kids and not everyone is comfortable letting their young children roam the city alone. Everyone has different lives.
Even in a country it depends on the state or city. In Munich and even around Tegernsee in Bavaria they have it better organised than in some places here in NRW. It’s because so many different private companies are responsible.
Most of those people can’t drive cars either. A lot of people with disabilities ride public transit because they can’t drive. And you still have people using them as a scapegoat for car dependancy.
A huge problem with public transportation is safety and usability for small children, the elderly, and people with disabilities
Probably because all of them can drive. Sarcasm. You just named all groups that will not get driver license. Expecially children and disabled.
They have problems with having to wait standing and constantly out of order escalators and elevators.
Everyone have to wait. Everyone hates standing. Maybe just do proper benches, maintanance of escalators or remove steps? Well, probably Germany don’t have problems with last one.
People are calling for radical change to their cities as they realize the poor economics of urban sprawl and suburban development. You do have a good point though as transit, density, and mixed zoning all work best when used together.
The shift to transit and walkability will actually make exisiting roadways and highways less congested and better serve any delivery vehicles using them. We won’t rip out all existing roads, but we will stop building a new lane every 5 years.
I think you’re making it out to be a bigger problem than it really would be. Nobody is going to push personal and commercial vehicles out, but there would be a lot less of them, they’d only be as big as necessary, and they’d be more environmentally friendly.
Driverless cars will very much have a future because you can’t build trains everywhere. They won’t be personally owned though, i.e. they’ll be robotaxis. Just imagine cities without parked cars.
You certainly can build trains wherever you want, but it comes at a cost that’s not necessarily worth paying everywhere, as it comes with both short term and maintenance costs. I say this as someone who works in rail and is passionate about it; in some locations there isn’t the demand to run the kind of high frequency service necessary to remove the need for car ownership. You can be better off with a demand responsive bus service, for example, to connect to your long-distance, high speed links.
I agree trains will just be more common for distance. I also agree driverless cars will be more common, but would add I think we’ll see more one person, two person, eight person cars in the city. No point in sending a four person car to take John to see his grandma.
We already have a system where you can request a car to come to your location, take you there and then it goes off and drives around doing the same thing for other people. I don’t know why it being autonomous means that people will ditch their private cars for it.
Renting a utility car will always be available until another futuristic thing happens. Having a utility truck fo everyday transport for the occasional moving is very wasteful.
And I know that there’s people that live on farms, have a shed where they store stuff and need those kinds of cars to move around to do work. Sure, those will exist, and they shouldn’t need to be punished for using their trucks for that, but using it for everyday stuff is wrong.
What kind of argument is this? Mostly pedestrian, public transport and bicycle based cities still have utility trucks and vans which you can use when you really need to. It’s a pain to navigate the city and the parking fees are high, but it’s something you would totally accept to for moving homes.
You can try googling “How to move homes in Amsterdam” and see whether people there manage to move homes.
TLDR: It’s not black and white, nobody wants to prohibit EVERY SINGLE MOTORIZED VEHICLE FOR EVERY SINGLE USECASE.
I’m being somewhat flippant, but cars aren’t vans.
By that, a van has a primary practical utility of being used to transport a lot of goods.
Cars’ primary utility is to transport people.
Yes sometimes people use their car to move a lot of stuff (I’ve done this myself more times than I can remember) but the vast majority of the time it’s just moving you.
I know this, but someone that just happens upon the community is most likely not gonna do enough poking around other posts to see that. Especially with the “deathtrap murderweapon vehicle users” mentality some people here have.
This is why there are different communities. This discussion was had a lot over at the other place, “fuck cars” is not exactly intended as the first contact people have with the thought that ‘maybe car centric infrastructure isn’t so great?’.
But it does seem to be the most popular, so it tends to be what most people will see first as far as I can tell.
It is what it is. I was just pointing out that no amount of telling people what is obvious to long timers is going to stop more outsiders from having the same reaction, so hopefully the community won’t run out of patience for it.
A lot of people have a very odd idea about Amsterdam but car use is actually pretty common there, especially outside of the tiny little central area.
I think mass transit systems are absolutely going to keep growing but we’re heading towards an integrated transport network made up of trains, planes, cars and boats rather than any one technology defeating the others.
Well, you certainly can be poor andneed gas money to go to work in a remote factory because you live in a farm in a rural area and there’s no transport, and the most cost effective way is a car.
I agree. There just won’t be trains running for a very long time if ever again, is all. Maybe a couple centuries minimum while humanity recovers from whatever toppled it.
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