Public transport needs much less space than cars. Especially if you put all the parking lots into the equation. So much space in cities is wasted by cars that do not even move most of the day.
Also delivery vehicles? The hipster organically grown vegetables in the local bodega at the foot of your apartment building in your walkable urban utopia don’t arrive there by magic.
The point is that the whole thing should be designed differently. We should focus these spaces around people rather than cars. There probably wouldn’t even be roads there at all. Streets would be fewer and with more space between them, and they would be designed to defer to pedestrian traffic more often, rather than the other way around. Bus stops would be on those streets, and pedestrians would walk a distance away to board them, while moving through safe, walking-focused sidewalks and avenues on the way.
🤦♀️ I literally gave you the space requirements of cars vs PT in a city that already has stellar public transport compared to the US, and you still can only come up with this utterly lobotomized hot take. Please tell me you’re not developing something important.
It’s almost like everyone would have more space if cars wouldn’t eat up 50% of the available space, while public transport and bikes only get 4% and 2%… :O Ö O: .O.
And this is in an area of Berlin where only 13% of trips are taken by car while bikes and public transport account for 32% and 22%.
Buses are better than cars but they’re still the worst form of public transport. They pollute like cars. They’re dangerous like cars. And they move as slowly as the traffic, like cars.
my dude you do realize that’s exactly what people did in the past before cars existed, right? There’s a video of olden gothenburg that shows kids running in front of the trams for fun!
And if you go there now you’ll see people crossing precisely wherever the fuck they please, because it’s just inherently way easier to deal with a couple public transport vehicles per minute than it is 50 cars.
I’d love to see a video that takes this concept, but walks around with it. Literally
Start by getting out of a car on the side of the street or in a parking lot, and when the camera gets out of the car, all the “car areas” drop away, leaving only the paths you’re “allowed” to take. Tiny sections right against the parking spaces, zebra crossings, sidewalks, all normal (or in this style).
Camera goes about a normal day, and as they’re looking around, all the car designated areas are just voids.
Bonus points if areas you’re technically not supposed to walk are boxed off in like a video game style DO NOT ENTER wall. For instance, there are sections of my city with NO sidewalks, up against private residences. So your options are walk over people’s yards or in the street. In this scenario, it’s a void against a wall. Good luck.
I’m just thinking about walking to get to downtown, and there’s no way I could do it without being somewhere I’m “not allowed”. And imagining the massive voids everywhere is a bit depressing. Not that roads and parking lot deserts are any less depressing… I need to go walk in the woods for a bit…
I’m just thinking about walking to get to downtown, and there’s no way I could do it without being somewhere I’m “not allowed”.
If I want to cross the 4-lane road just outside my apartment, there is simply no legal way to do it. There is an intersection but no crosswalks and no way to request to cross. I shouldn’t have to have a vehicle just to get from one side of the road to the other.
Eh. Not denying that also cars have cons, but some pros are 1. sometimes the car is the best way/in the shortest time to get somewhere 2. You can carry much more with you if you have a car 3. It can be used as a place to sleep in 4. You can give lifts to people 5. Some work require to have a car (if you need to be in many different places in a day)
I myself don’t have a driving license and I hope I never need one. I use public transportation and a bicycle to get around.
Dunno why loudness is a thing though. Reasonable volume should be advised.
Also I would argue a lot of things people hate about cities and drive them to live in the country or exurbs are caused by an over abundance of cars.
Now add urban greening to the mix and that’s quite a spicy brew. I think a lot of people who prefer rural or exurban living today would be tempted by properly built cities.
Definitely. Cities aren’t loud; cars are loud. I’m convinced if some eccentric person built an entire car-free, transit-oriented city from the ground up, the vast majority of people would absolutely love living there. I don’t know a single person who doesn’t love a nice car-free street in the middle of a city.
Cities are loud even without cars. People shouting. Music playing. Dogs barking. Sirens. And then there’s the light pollution.
And it’s not just the noise I dislike, it’s the constant presence of people. It stresses me out. I’d rather have a million bugs as my neighbors than a million people.
I don’t think sirens need to be anywhere near as loud without cars. The only reason they are so loud currently is to be heard over the roar of the highway.
Will cities be as quiet as the countryside? Probably not. But they will be dramatically quieter than they are now. Not Just Bikes took some decibel measurements of urban areas with and without cars and the difference is pretty huge.
I don’t doubt that they’re a lot quieter without cars, since I’ve seen that video, too. But it won’t ever be enough for me, especially because as the city gets quieter I stop being bothered by the noise and start being worried other people are bothered by mine.
People are telling you your mind is different. It’s not. I enjoy visiting cities because I enjoy seeing and experiencing that. But I wouldn’t want to live there. It’s like you step outside your door and you are constantly seen, so you must act appropriately. You can’t fully relax that way.
I enjoy backpacking because of the solitude and closeness with nature. I enjoy more rural housing (not crazy rural… maybe an acre per home) for that same reason. I also don’t want to worry I’m bothering the neighbors inside my own home if I walk too loudly, or am watching a movie.
Lemmy loves compact cities and I see the arguments, but maybe you’d have had to grow up in one to really appreciate it.
I’m glad somebody gets it. Seeing and hearing other people and being seen and heard by them is uncomfortable for me.
Though an acre per house is still way, way, way too urban for me. My favorite home was over a mile down a dirt road and so far from anyone I didn’t see any other houses.
Wait but this doesn’t necessarily mean you disagree with the post? You can still be a pastralist and support dense cities as a way to preserve rural areas which is what the post implies…
Hello I am that person. Not because it’s a car free street, but because there’s still a few thousand people nearby and no dirt under my toes and I can’t see the stars.
Sure for people like you, you might still prefer rural lifestyle. I don’t think it will be everyone. But I think there are lots of people who just want quiet, safety, and beauty and find those in rural areas. But cities could have those qualities too if we managed and designed them better.
Yeah, this is one area I think those who love cities and those who love countryside can agree. Better, more liveable, more compact cities with less sprawling suburbia will make life better for both groups.
How about: change zoning laws to allow people to collectively decide what sort of housing they would like, and connect those places through complete streets that cater to multiple forms of transportation. Instead of the current suburban cookie-cutter approach of single family homes and car dependence.
have you seen that ad showing people simulating traffic but without the cars? it’s just even more poignant as it shows how absurdly inefficient cars are at transporting people (on average a car contains 1.2 people).
Hey, I know that place. That’s exactly what the old downtown area of my native city looked like while they were renovating all the streets (which took well over a year).
Also looks like Venice, just fill the hole with water.l and tourist will be pouring in.
Note: to be fair, after finishing the work in my city, those streets were all closed off to cars except for people who live there (not many) and deliveries for the local businesses.
Cargo bikes need to become more common. It would have easily carried a laser printer … and a second laser printer … and your groceries for the week … and a kitchen appliance.
Edit: Here are the examples from the Not Just Bikes video on cargo bikes:
Hench why they said they should become more common.
There’s a few pilot projects for cargobike shares popping up in my city, and I hope they become more prolific to allow everyone easy access without having to own.
I used to say things like this when I lived without a car, but it took me way too long to realize other people walking to the grocery would take a taxi/Uber home. It makes it a lot easier to carry the load and it’s not too expensive in one direction for a short distance
@dog_@Potatos_are_not_friends ok, but how often do you carry a laser printer? Should all urban design be made to prioritize cars just so someone can carry something heavy once every three years? Wouldn't it be better if you only had to use a car when you actually needed it?
@dog_ yes, it's fine to use cars from time to time. But is it fine to absolutely destroy our cities to prioritize space for cars? That's the point of this community. It's not "never use a car", it's "cities should belong to people, we shouldn't have to give up so much space for cars".
@dog_ replying to your edit: if you live in a place that forces you to drive, that's not your fault. We're all striving here so more places can be places where you're, actually, not forced to drive a car.
And I wish it wasn’t raining when my daughter had her 8th birthday party in the park. We don’t always get what we want in this world, even when we’re doing something we want to do.
That’s such a contrived example why would we even bother with it?
Typically when people purchase or obtain items that they need to transport home or to someplace, they do some sort of planning ahead. Also, when I was a kid and needed transportation I typically could just ask an adult to help out with this. Or, another option would be to ask the school to hold the object until you could arrange transportation.
In any case, three miles is not a particularly long distance to traverse, and as you pointed out above you were actually able to walk that distance while carrying it. Well laser printers are somewhat heavy, I’m sure it was a little annoying to carry and you probably had to stop several times and rest. By myself had to carry 30 lb of lumber about 3 mi home from the lumber store years ago when I didn’t have a car. And yes I was able to manage.
However, cargo bicycles exist and are quite popular in many parts of the world including the United States and can carry up to 400 lbs, so it is not true that the only means of transporting moderately weighty items is by automobile.
In fact, I would be willing to bet that you would not even need a cargo bicycle but a normal bicycle with a rear rack and a couple of bungee cords would probably suffice. I know this because I got away without having a bicycle for 6 years as an adult American in a city and even went bicycle camping a few times with my friends.
I gotta hand it to you, kid, you’re the perfect specimen why communities like fuck cars exist, and why nothing is changing.
Even presented with a fucking wishing well you cannot come up with anything but “CAaAaR”, because your imagination spans from wall to wallpaper.
You could have imagined and wished for e.g. a working infrastructure of cargo bike sharing, but nope!, car it is!
You don’t understand why people hate cars, you’re part of the reason people hate cars.
I don’t have money, I don’t make money, so I couldn’t get an Uber/Lyft/Taxi (Not to mention that we don’t have taxis where I live).
Ah, a car is free, of course, it just drops out of nowhere and runs on unicorn dust. Tonight, please ask mommy and daddy what they’re paying for their car(s). Full cost: down payment, monthly payments, fuel, repairs, insurance, loss of value, everything.
I’m gonna tl;dr it for you: if you cannot afford a taxi/uber/whatever even once, you cannot afford a car. There, that was easy, wasn’t it?
I ruled a bike out as an option as I CANNOT take a bike onto a school bus, so I can get to school.
I thought the printer was just 3 miles away? Did it ever occur to you you could have just gone home, pick up the cargo bike, ride the 3 miles to the printer which literally takes 10 minutes and pick it up?
My town is that perfect medium (for me). It’s a small city as a bedroom community for a major city. I live in a single family home. I just got back from walking with my kid and dog down into the town center. We have a Common, some government buildings and businesses, mixed with higher density housing up to six stories, and a great walkable “main street” lined with shops and restaurants. This is clustered around a train station that is also a bus hub, taxi stand, bikes and scooters, and they’re just finishing a rail trail, that will eventually connect to a state-wide network
I have to admit I never took advantage of all of this until COViD. Suddenly we couldn’t drive anywhere nor go out anywhere crowded. So we made a habit of spending a weekend afternoon walking around enjoying the town - typically grab takeout from one of the many restaurants, and eat dinner on a bench on the Common!
This is why I disagree with people who want all or nothing, people who think in binary and expect to perfectly achieve their version of ideal. It doesn’t happen
It helps that I experienced this directly: lived in a great place where everything was convenient by walking, with an unlimited train and bus pass so I had freedom to go anywhere any time (that the trains were running). I still “needed” my car. The best way to encourage more people like me to go carless is to accept the reality, and include a place to stash cars long term. Feel free to make it inconvenient, even. Just let me keep a car until I’m ready to give it up. Give me the freedom to choose on my own terms.
I’ve even experienced this in several small towns, where you have a walkable downtown but need to drive everywhere else. My ex in-laws lived in a farming town of a thousand or so (because 400 college kids)and they had these great old fashioned streets with alleys behind. The streets were quiet and walkable, people hung out on their front porches , there were small town shops and restaurants, they seemed to know everyone they passed …. If you needed your car, you walk out back to the garage and drive down the alley. If you were coming from a farm, you’d park in the lot behind a pub or restaurant and walk to other places in town. Great combination of a 15 minute small town, still allowing for cars but out of the way
People often point to the Netherlands as being a car free utopia and while they definitely have some of the best car independent infrastructure, they haven’t fully given up on car infrastructure either, but rather recognised it’s most prominent use cases and accommodated it appropriately. I believe that this is the best way to pull off this dream. It satisfies everyone.
Just don’t force me to drive into your downtown office with paid parking that’s often full just to sit at a desk and video-conference with people halfway across the country in the name of some misguided “return to office” mandate.
It’s often difficult to find meeting rooms with enough space, so sometimes all you can do is have everyone get their own 1-person phone room. Meeting in someone’s office isn’t a thing because nobody has personal offices anymore - it’s all “open concept” bullshit.
I recall reading a study about stray dogs in urban environments. I don’t remember much from it, but I diatinctly remember the authors discovered that urban dogs tended to avoid intersections. They would walk down the block a significant distance before attempting to cross a street.
Intersections are complicated. Traffic can be coming from any direction, turning toward or away from your path. Halfway down the block, though, traffic is only approaching from two directions. Much less going on, and much safer for the animal.
How do people deal with exiting these roundbaouts in Europe?
Nobody in america uses them (edit in: turn signals) when exiting and im stuck there waiting for a spot to clear, or until someone decides to let me know theyre exiting. It doesnt help theyre the smallest roundabouts they could possibly make. Everyone behind me gets mad, but just entering is like playing a game of chicken.
Do people in europe have the same issue, and they’ve just learned to time it better / have more space between entrances and exits, or are people more courteous, and use their damn turn signals.?
BMW and Audi drivers on this side of the pond. Hell, I almost walked in front of some sort of massive SUV last night because the fucker turned left, while blowing a stop sign, with no turn signal.
when driving on the left (eg UK), if you’re making an exit on the left side of the roundabout, you signal left and get in the left lane, if you’re going straight you don’t signal and can get in either lane, if you’re going right you signal right and get in the right lane, then signal left to exit
Do roundabouts flow both clockwise and counter clockwise in the UK? They only flow counter clockwise here, so you’d always exit to the right. The left lane is the inner most lane, and hence there’s nowhere to exit to. Unless you are one of the frequent rednecks that just go straight across in your massive truck/SUV.
perhaps I should have specified, my example was for left-driving traffic which travels clockwise in the UK. in the US its right driving traffic traveling widdershins on roundabouts.
assuming you approach the roundabout from the south, heading north, and you’re driving on the left, traffic travelling clockwise on the roundabout. the first exit (west) would be “left”, the second exit (north) would be straight on, the third exit (east) would be right, and the fourth exit (south) would be essentially a u-turn
as you approach, intending to turn east (left) you signal left, if youre intending to turn west (right) you’d signal right. Once you’re on the roundabout, if turning east (left) you’re already signaling left so you exit left, but turning west (which was right as you approached the roundabout but is now left from your POV) as you approach your exit you signal left to exit.
Think of it as just the same as exiting and entering like you would on the highway. When nobody’s coming you’re good to enter and when your exit comes up you leave. Not sure I would necessarily signal entering but signaling the exit helps other people know what you’re about to do.
You should always signal to exit a roundabout after you pass the exit before the one you want to take. If you want to take the first exit, signal before you enter the roundabout. If you want to take the second exit, signal after you pass the first exit etc.
If you’re taking an exit more than 180 degrees around the circle from the entrance, you should signal the other direction to show that you are staying on the roundabout and then signal to leave after you pass the exit before the one you want. E.g. if you’re in a country where you drive on the right and the roundabout is on a traditional crossroad ‘+’ and you want to take the third (left) or fourth (u turn) exit then you should indicate left to start with and then indicate right to exit.
Note that this is what you should do. You will see drivers not signalling correctly in any country with roundabouts. The most common error is probably not indicating at all when going straight.
I’ll give you a better tip for all traffic interactions; look at the driver not the car. You can see where they are looking and what they plan to do in almost all situations. You can even see if they aren’t looking and have no plan.
fuckcars
Oldest
This magazine is from a federated server and may be incomplete. Browse more on the original instance.