It’s always nice to get a positive take on how things are improving in North America. I’m excited to see where things will go in the next 10 years. I just had a conversation with someone the other day about not just “running away” from the problems we have, and actually working to solve them.
Some days the battle feels unwinable when you have rich people and governments brainwashing the masses into acting against their own self interest in the name of looking successful. Some days it seems easier to just let them have it and go to where the life you desire is already established and let the people who are too blinded to know better get what they asked for.
Those are the days I have to remind myself I was one of them. I was willfully ignorant to the problem because I was doing well enough to not care. I ignored the consequences and still I was given the opportunity to change. If I deserved the ability and opportunity to change then so do the rest of the herd. And then the die hards who refuse to change can be the ones who can leave if they don’t like it.
If nothing else, car dependency is fiscally unsustainable. We might go kicking and screaming towards the solution, but eventually people will have no choice but to abandon the financial suicide that is making your city car dependent.
True, and I wish my city would realize it harder, sooner. On the other hand, I just read an article the other day that claims that the collapse of civilization has begun. A lot of societies throughout history perseverated with maladaptive habits after the local environment changed, and thus collapsed. A lot of them didn’t, though, and I hope that we’ll wise up in time.
But yeah, honestly, I’m worried myself that our society is starting to unravel if we don’t get our act together. Unmitigated climate catastrophe may well prove to be the greatest disaster in human history, if you count all the wars, famines, genocide it may cause. I sincerely hope it doesn’t turn out so dire, but so far humanity is stubbornly refusing to do anywhere near enough to stop it. Whether that’s civilization-ending or merely really frickin bad remains to be seen, but it’s also worthwhile noting that collapse doesn’t always mean post-apocalyptic; for farmers in ancient Rome around its collapse, life probably didn’t seem all that different day-to-day.
I’ve thought about that, too. How very rural people way back when may not have known or cared what empire they belonged to. I read years ago about a region France that routinely got double taxed because no one was really sure if they were French or German, and it was just easier to pay your taxes to both collectors than fight it. A society like that, yeah, they may not care so much about the empires collapse. But us? Even in the most rural areas of any ‘western’ country, the difference would likely be huge. No sanitation department, no internet, no electricity. And because, especially in the US, we have never developed a sense of personal responsibility to our communities or any kind of solidarity, we are unlikely to weather that particularly well. There’ll be no spontaneous eruption of communal gatherings and a sense of building a better community. They’ll be bastards hoarding shit and people shooting each other because there’s no one to stop it. :(
A percentage of people will, like they always do. My pessimistic view is that we just need to see how bad it gets before the pendulum starts swinging back the other way
Let me remind you that there are rural areas where people life in farms and need to drive to the factory they work in, there’s no shuttle bus, no train no nothing, and while isolated factories exist this will still be the case. They can’t really arrange a bus that goes to pick up their employees, since the roundabout would make it more gax expensive and some people live in places where a bus can’t even dream to get in.
I wish things improved, and that this became a reality for cities, there’s already cities in holland where getting the car in is prohibited, you need to leave it outside the city, but making car dependency fiscally unsustainable is punishing people that can’t have the privilege to work on other stuff. Imagine electrical technitians, they can’t take a bus/train/tram with machinery, even in a city. I’m all in for improvement and punishment for whim driving, but it needs to be regulated well not to fuck again poor people, because factory workers of rural areas aren’t partcularly rich.
Again, for reference, I don’t even own a car, I WFH and life in a town where public transport is excellent, but most of my family members live in the situation I described. Anyway, even though this post is about urban areas, there are plenty comments talking about cars as a whole, and usually policies done to fix car usage, things like gas prices and such, affect everyone, not only urbanites like me.
In a perfect world/scenario…which would never happen…
If urban centers immediately dropped their reliance on cars and individual transport systems, then there would be more gas to go to rural centers where individual transportation makes more sense (going to the store) or is mandatory (farm and other industrial equipment) making prices drop for rural gas and urban center be more self sufficient and environmentally friendly.
Urban centers dropping their car reliance isn’t achieved by making it expensive for everyone, but by banning it’s use and increasing the public transport support.
Yeah that’s a bold assumption. My bet is on “it’s going to get progressively worse and never better”. I have yet to be proven wrong. Since the day I was born everything’s been enshittening with only inconsequential cosmetic improvements (lol technology, what a joke).
Eh, I guess? Partially. I have stores nearby that I can go walking, and WFH so yeah internet reliant, but I’m a programmer so that’s already a given anyway.
I did say self sufficient with minimal transport though.
I live mostly this way. I have an electric car but I live in a very dense urban area and don’t drive much. Looking to get myself an ebike or scooter to use as my main mode of transportation.
Yeah…being a programmer, it doesn’t matter if WFH structure falls because around the same time most technology might fall. We just gotta hope that it’s multi-decades away at this point
After around 1919 and before Stalin USSR was democratic. And from 80-ies to the end. And democracy ended about 1996. Then shooting parlament from tanks, then Eltsin names his successor, then his successor wins, then removal of gubernator elections in 2002-2003, and everything else.
And in comparasion USSR was more democratic than empire except Stalin time. Stalin time managed to be even worse.
I live in a small walkable city in the Netherlands. I ride the bus, the train and my bicycle. I still own a car since those other transport modes don’t cover every need I have. And car sharing is non existent in my town.
I don’t think owning a car is necessarily a problem. For me FuckCars mostly means “fuck using a car unless you have to”, which means using a car for those kind of commutes that people do every day or very often. Go to your workplace, school or university, go shop groceries…
There will be other context where you are going to need a car. Your holidays, for one. It’s not a problem in my book. And of course it also applies to a lesser extent to folks living in the countryside, where it’s inherently more difficult and expensive to link communities to transit. Our main concern should be ridding cities of cars and you guys in the Netherlands are already doing an amazing work on that front in many places.
Accessible trains that cover long distances (particularly high-speed rail) with trains that have floors at the level of the platform, like any European country with a competent public transport system. “Your mother” could also use something like a microcar to get to the station, which is allowed on bike lanes in the Netherlands as long as she can prove she has a disability.
No, but your sons would have an easier and safer time getting around with protected bike lanes, which is precisely why parents in the Netherlands never have to do school runs.
Your groceries will get to you faster the less unneccessary road users are there due to less induced demand. Do you honestly think countries that heavily rely on public transport don’t have businesses that use the road regularly? Do you honestly think they have no emergency services (ambulances, firetrucks, police cars)? Have you actually thought about examples of how countries that actually exist using good public transport amenities and dense housing operate? Or are you just against change?
You meticulously avoided all hard questions. No problem, I just repeat them for you:
I wonder how a train is picking up my walking disabled mother from three Kilometres afar?
Will a train stop at my house to pick up my some two tons of gardening scraps per year?
At which time will it deliver my 100kg of groceries per week?
Also, How does a long distance train help my mother to get the 3km to her doctor?
How does a train help me buying building materials? Last week I bought 400kg of tiles. One drive with a car. It would have taken ten travels with a train if the train did stop inside the hardware store and directly in front of my house. Delivery by truck would have cost €50.
A “micro car” is not only insanely expensive, it also has no room for my mothers wheelchair.
My country has one of the best public transport systems in the western world. Everything you mention is available here. We can drive EVERYWHERE for a €49 flat rate and we have three bus stops within 100 metres. Still that doesn’t help to solve a single problem I mentioned earlier.
Oh, and spending €245 for a family trip in a train? Not gonna happen. With the car it is a €10 trip.
But there is a actually a solution which could work: Robotaxis at very low prices per km. It wouldn’t lower the traffic but reduce the parked cars and the TCO of personal transport.
Please give me moar bullshittery to mock you. It is fun.
I didn’t avoid your questions but if you would like to move your goalposts I can attempt to accomodate you.
The use of a microcar with a wheelchair is a very realistic possibility. In actual fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if they already exist precicely because microcars are designed for people who are disabled. You know, the same people most likely to be wheelchair users?
I also find it so funny that you’re complaining about the potential cost of purchasing a microcar but a full size car is a justifiable expense to you.
Where in the fuck is a trip costing 235 Euros that costs you 10 Euros by car? That type of cost disparity is not even a thing in the UK, where there is some of the worst teains in all of Europe. That’s simply a shit public transport system. Unlimited journeys through the interrail system across 33 countries in Europe for one month costs 704 Euros.
That’s not even taking into account the fact that your mother would not be 3km away from some form of public transport service if your mother’s government was actually made of competent people.
Oh, no! Looks like officials were bribed to spend money on stupid shit that is not useful in anyway! But our society needs these philanthropists. It just does.
I’m not as pessimistic as you. This venture will obviously fail but at least musk took care of the expensive part of drilling the tunnels. What’s do you think about the over/under of this being converted to train within 15 years?
A car can barely fit in those tunnels. They would have to make those several times bigger for trains + add emergency exits and vents the Musk didn’t bother to build
Idk how the train will pick me up living in the middle of nowhere. Sure, trains are practical where civilization lives, but it’s just far too rural for trains here.
Meanwhile, builds the largest highway network in the world, many even in cities; maintain shitload of free parking; also enforces minimum parking requirements, all at the expense of tax payer.
People without cars are literally forced to pay to make everyone’s life worse.
In some state, yes, if by “most” you mean “more than 50% of road expense is paid by toll and car related taxes”.
But that is still a huge percentage not covered by tax for car users, requiring other foundings to cover them. The highest percentage paid by user tax and toll is not even 70% in all the U.S. states.
Not to mention many state dont even cover 50%; some only cover as low as 19% or even 12%.
It depends, in a country where the road system makes sense, sure. In rural area where every road serves a purpose: connecting business to transport goods, sure.
But excessive roads in cities and suburbs? No. Many roads in city and suburbs of the U.S. should be closed for cars, and be bike, bus, and emergency vehicles only. Since cars either don’t use them that much or just don’t have good experience on them because of the congestions. This also saves road maintainance, enables a smoother experience in transport and emergency vehicles, controls emission, and encourage a health life style in general.
It is again about the right tools for the job. A loaded van to transport fruit to the local farmer’s market, emergency vehicles, these are times where cars are the right tools. On the other hand, F150 is not the right tool to get a Mcdonald’s drive through for one.
A huge problem with public transportation is safety and usability for small children, the elderly, and people with disabilities or who are sick. All these people often can’t use bikes or scooters. They have problems with having to wait standing and constantly out of order escalators and elevators.
I don’t own a car and live in a place with relatively good public transportation. That’s the biggest problem I see, next to how badly organised it is (at least here in Germany).
American here, I have a disabled family member. Cars are ultimately harder on them because they physically cannot lift themselves into a car while also stowing their 200lbs wheelchair.
A bus or train doesn’t have that problem and are therefore better.
And the more walk able the area the better because it makes it far easier. I’m sure there are disabled and elderly people who have an easier time using cars. But to say in a broad sweeping generalization that it’s better for all disabled and elderly people is a mistake. Cars should not be the first go to for a solution.
And kids can’t even use cars. They are dependent on public transportation and the walkability in their area.
It’s just a problem that needs to be fixed and is rarely mentioned (if at all). Especially the unreliable elevators + escalators.
Additionally, many trams and busses here have narrow stairs to enter or a huge gap to the floor. Some bus drivers refuse to help people in wheelchairs, they will just claim the bus is too full so they don’t need to build the ramp. For the trams, there’s no way to get in with a wheelchair.
Ironically, these were meant to have enough space for at least one wheelchair. But the entrance is not friendly, for various reasons.
I have a mild disability and often can’t use the public transport because I struggle with stairs. Than I have to wait for a tram with a new model or walk around the city to a stop with no stairs.
They still build crossings like these and call it “modernized” …
For kids the biggest problem is that in a lot of vehicles the stop isn’t announced. And when the bus is (too) full they can’t see the monitors or out of the windows. (That’s a problem for all very short people I guess.)
I have more trouble with cars in my day to day life than with the issues of public transit. I just wanted to add that public transit has to be done better. But if you dare to criticise it people lose their minds here. And pretend you are against public transit and a car fetishist. -.-
It seems so odd to me that the transit doesn’t have accessibility for those in scooters or wheelchairs. In nearly every city in Canada I’ve been to, their underfunded bus systems all have a wheelchair access door and systems to lower the bus for easier access.
A lot of the busses have it here, but not all. It also depends if you are lucky enough the bus driver is actually helping.
For the trams it’s worse. To safe money they want to wait until the old trams get decommissioned, even when they are hard or impossible to use for disabled people. They also still build crossings made out of stairs, with no other way to reach the other side of the track unless you want to take a huge detour. Just because it’s cheap.
Germany loves their cars more than people realise…
Maybe you could try to get people in your communities to take pictures of these difficulties and write to their politicians how it is inadequate service. Perhaps there could be retrofitting done to the existing services and new regulations made for new devlopments. It seems wrong for transit not to service people with mobility issues, they can often be the ones who can most benefit from it.
The skybridge would be required to be made accessible in the USA, regardless of whether its public or private. There are very limited exceptions to ADA requirements - the second the private company spent money “modernizing” a station without installing accessibility aids, they’d have opened themselves up to a lawsuit to compel them to make the station accessible.
I would imagine that Germany is no different that a lot of Western European countries in thinking it is better than the US (because it IS in a lot of ways). Would “we treat the disabled worse than Americans do” effectively trigger German national ego toward change? So long as you keep the convo focused on accessibility and not universal healthcare ;)
I don’t know why it would matter how it is any other country? I’ve only really heard that in a private conversation, like “I was in XY for vacation and they had better whatever”. But never as a political argument lol
Perhaps if it’s a comparison to a direct neighbour like Austria or Switzerland since they are similar and a lot of Germans move there.
Sorry, it seemed like that’s what you were implying.
Additionally, many trams and busses here have narrow stairs to enter or a huge gap to the floor.
It seems like there is quite a bit of difference in the construction of busses/trains between our countries which was causing us to talk past each other. For reference, here is a standard bus entrance:
I know there are some train/tram systems that aren’t as good as this, and it isn’t the standard, but it should be.
They still build crossings like these and call it “modernized”
Yeah that’s some bullshit.
For kids the biggest problem is that in a lot of vehicles the stop isn’t announced.
Here that’s not so much of a problem. All busses have voice announcements and an LED display for the next stop. I’m not quite sure about the trains though because there are basically none in my city.
And when the bus is (too) full they can’t see the monitors or out of the windows. (That’s a problem for all very short people I guess.)
That’s not too hard of a problem at least, as you can run more busses on a line to deal with overcrowding.
You are destroying my fantasy that everything in Western Europe is better. But this would be extremely unlikely to have happened in the US in this day and age - the Americans With Disabilities Act (“ADA”) would have required the station (be it public or private) to have reasonable accomodations for the disabled. In Florida, for example, PalmTran stations would have an elevator on either side of the tracks to get you onto the skybridge.
I think people have a somewhat narrow view on countries in Western Europe. Every country is very diverse. It makes a huge difference whether you are in Bavaria, Brandenburg or Hamburg, etc. These are all in Germany but parts of the law can be different.
I live in Nordrhein Westfalen where it is okay if there is any alternative for disabled people. For example, you could drive to another station which has an elevator and than use the bus to come back. ( ་ ⍸ ་ )
I guarantee you, you have universal healthcare, and every one of those provinces. And very little issue with mass shooting. Or a legal system that keeps a significant portion of your minority population from being able to vote
You should make a complete new thread discussing these issues. Fuck Cars shouldn’t be only about moving towards public transportation, but also about making sure that public transportation is good. I have a lot of trouble using buses too, so it is only sensible to bring up the issue to make sure that solutions include everyone.
Elderly people use electric mobility scooters at Disney literally all the time. They’re pretty great for the elderly so long as there’s accessability ramps everywhere.
Escalators and elevators being out of service seems like an issue of lack of investment in public transit.
And cities can be built around public transit and micromobility while still allowing cars. Generally, you’ll have better access for emergency vehicles, and you can do the same for people with disabilities.
I feel like people misunderstand my post. That it is a lack of investment is 100 % true. I want more investment and better public transport. People here seem to think I want to have cars, but that’s not my point?!
One of the leading causes of death for children in North America is from cars. Well funded and built transit should be accessible to all in their urban areas. Stops should have sheltered waiting areas with adequate and maintained seating. Good maintanence and funding would reduce equipment failures in elevators and other equipment. Ideally we densify around this transit as well which would help to reduce travel distances for people with movement disabilties and promote walkability. 95% of the time well designed and funded transit paired with good urban density and zoning will be more accessible to those with disabilities than private vehicle ownership.
Federalism is the key impediment to a sensible transportation policy, though. Corpo stakeholders drive sprawl. Developers have legislatures captured to a degree that exceeds even the gun lobby. 50 different state governments, with thousands of local governments, with a federal government that is unable to plan beyond the next election - the US is fucked. There are way too many entry points for bad faith actors to wreck a good plan. More opportunities for direct democracy and recall could help, plus rank-choiced voting, plus dosing the water with Wellbutrin to turn off people’s worry about supernatural bullshit, and we might get somewhere.
That’s definitely not a problem everywhere. The buses we use in Canada are very disability friendly and we have programs to teach kids how to ride the bus alone. We have bike racks on the front of our buses too, so we can combine modes of transportation.
The biggest problem with public transit over here is lack of funding and infrastructure. The bus system is intentionally kept shitty here so that people will opt to buy cars where possible.
Here the public transit was sold to private companies by the government. It still costs a huge sum of money but they have less strict laws when it comes to accessibility. The government is very much a boot licker of the car industry here and Germany in general has a weird car culture.
“Barely functioning” is good enough for public transport, that seems to be the overall attitude, even in the general population.
People here have no trouble walking to stops and bikes / scooters are common, so the premises are there. But instead of taking the final leap and improving public transportation so that more people switch, they are currently moving backwards it seems.
That’s nice, not everyone lived in the city as kids and not everyone is comfortable letting their young children roam the city alone. Everyone has different lives.
Even in a country it depends on the state or city. In Munich and even around Tegernsee in Bavaria they have it better organised than in some places here in NRW. It’s because so many different private companies are responsible.
Most of those people can’t drive cars either. A lot of people with disabilities ride public transit because they can’t drive. And you still have people using them as a scapegoat for car dependancy.
A huge problem with public transportation is safety and usability for small children, the elderly, and people with disabilities
Probably because all of them can drive. Sarcasm. You just named all groups that will not get driver license. Expecially children and disabled.
They have problems with having to wait standing and constantly out of order escalators and elevators.
Everyone have to wait. Everyone hates standing. Maybe just do proper benches, maintanance of escalators or remove steps? Well, probably Germany don’t have problems with last one.
The more people try to “innovate” transportation the closer it gets to going back to trains. Driverless cars, for efficiency have them communicate with eachother, to accelerate and brake at the same time, for example. That’s just less efficient and more expensive trains.
There’s a massive failure condition for your example - sure, autonomous cars behave like trains when they communicate with each other to sync acceleration and deceleration, but they can also separate themselves from the collective to drive you to the door of your home. In the train metaphor this would be like you sitting in your own train car, and the train car separating from the rest of it and driving you to your doorstep.
Or you could have a train that drops you off either close to your home or close to a bus station that drops off near your home. This would require a walkable city, so it’s definitely not as simple as just building tracks and bus stations. The issue is that Americans are so used to car dependent infrastructure, that when they try to imagine what public transport would be like, they think of it in the context of where they live. That’s why I think so many are opposed to the idea. It’s not an impossible task, it’s just that it’d require money and effort, so it probably won’t happen.
It also won’t happen because not all of us live in cities. The “fuck cars” crowd never has any solutions for rural locations other than “don’t live there” as if rural areas serve no purpose. As long as farms are a thing there will be people out here, either farming themselves or supporting farmers,and things like scooters and trains either won’t work or only partially solve the problem.
Anyone who thinks getting rid of cars is a viable strategy in the US of all places is delusional.
You are talking about a minority of vehicles though. 77% of US personal vehicles are non-rural, hence, fuck them.*
I also don’t think many people want to get rid of every single car everywhere for every purpose. Most cars are personal vehicles in built up areas and that’s where they cause the most problems and make the least sense.
For some places rail is too expensive or inflexible. So you need driverless cars, but you can make them cheaper by not having so many of them, instead having really big ones, and since driverless is not ready we hire a human to drive for now.
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