TC on open source evangelists

[email protected] - Oh my gosh I just figured it out.

Okay, all you open source evangelist people: your knee-jerk reaction to come at people who are talking about a problem with whatever commercial software they use and suggest Your Favorite Alternatives™ is exactly like saying “why don’t you just buy a house?” to someone complaining about their landlord.

[email protected] - Actually, to borrow from @DoubleA, it’s worse than that.

It’s like talking to someone who is in a crappy apartment as though they have the agency and skills to stake out a plot of land and build their own home.

You have to be at peace with the fact that some people just want to exist and not worry about so many things. And they still have a right to complain about their situation.

Link to thread: mas.to/

Lord_Wunderfrog,

What do you mean not every casual computer user wants to wrestle with drivers, troubleshooting and running everything through wine all the time?

AVincentInSpace,

I literally cannot remember the last time I had a driver issue with Linux but go off

tastysnacks,

Pre Linux 2.6

photonic_sorcerer,
@photonic_sorcerer@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Try being stuck with an Nvidia card

yiliu,

https://informis.land/pictrs/image/3f0874fb-2a42-4381-adcc-6e9f8ca4f511.jpeg

toothpicks,

( // out of the loop ) who wants to catch me up on the whole Nvidia thing lol

yiliu,

They’ve never released proper open-source drivers for Linux, or helped external developers make any, or made it easy to use their closed driver with Linux. They’re just hostile to open source, basically. That used to be pretty common in the old days, but most companies have given up and joined in, which is why installing Linux is usually a smooth experience these days.

If you’re using Linux: get an AMD card. They just work out of the box, no failures to boot to GUI or anything. It just works…like everything else. Which, having spent 20 years fighting with graphics drivers on Linux, is sheer bliss to me.

Oh, but the defacto standard for anything AI-related is NVidia. So if you ever wanna mess with LLMs, object detection, speech recognition, etc…you’re likely stuck with NVidia, and the old routine: Got a problem? Of course you do. Try reinstalling the drivers three times, then uninstall some random other packages, then burn some incense, say 10 Hail Marys, and make an offering to the GPU gods before restarting the computer. Didn’t work? Well, repeat all those steps in a different order. Fifth time’s the charm!

jarfil,

If you want to mess with AIs… there are cloud servers you can rent for a few cents on the hour with some blazing fast NVidia cards, that come with all the drivers and some toolkits already preinstalled.

As long as you don’t forget to shut them down when not in use, they can turn out to be cheaper than a single GPU, with none of the hassle.

ILikeBoobies,

Nvidia is notorious for having bad drivers and they serialized their cards so people can’t fix it

toothpicks,

Thanks

ILikeBoobies,

Haven’t had any

java,

I’ve been using Nvidia and Linux for 13 years. I’ll repeat:

I literally cannot remember the last time I had a driver issue with Linux but go off

Honytawk,

Then you are luckier than most.

Reil, (edited )

Multiple monitors, touch screens, tablet digitizers remain a letdown constantly. Not always fully broken, but falling just short enough that actually fixing it is a pain and just living without the feature (or Linux) is easier.

AVincentInSpace,

When I say to my sister “I will literally buy the house for you, help you move in, and give you my phone number you can call any time you need any help with it” and she comes back with “I’d rather sit here and complain about my landlord” I think I have a right to get angry

vivadanang,

you have to admit this is one hell of an edge case. the vast majority don’t have your sister’s ‘problem’

cwagner,

I think the majority of us also don’t want to play tech support.

vivadanang,

the sword is double edged, the ones you neglect will come to you when it gets bad.

cwagner,

Which is why me and people like me don’t care much what our relatives use :D

ILikeBoobies,

You haven’t seen the FOSS community then

Also you will have to play tech support no matter what if you set them up

Templa,

Or you will need help and ask questions and people will assume you are “lazy asking” and be toxic just because you are a beginner and don’t know stuff. Recently I’ve lost count on how many projects I joined some kind of communication space like Discord and left as soon as I saw how awful people can be when they want to gatekeep

MiddledAgedGuy,

I don’t like helping non-tech people because they don’t want to learn. They just want it fixed. I understand the mindset and I’m that same way on other things. But I don’t want to be their “tech guy”.

I do like helping in the FOSS community though because people generally do want to learn.

LibertyLizard,
@LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net avatar

If I had you as a sibling I would use a lot more foss stuff then lol.

Honytawk,

Yeah, and that is their opinion, which is as valid as yours.

They are the ones who will have to use the software day in and out, they should be the ones to decide which software they use.

AVincentInSpace,

okay but you still don’t get to act like i’m saying “just buy a house!”

drwankingstein,

this is a really dumb take lmao

Dieinahole,

It really isn't though.

A day or two or even a week to get the hang of something isn't a 40-year mortgage

huginn,

Open cad just isn’t the same though

aesopjah,

yeah, freeCAD is kinda crappy compared to even F360

Honytawk,

Does Fusion 360 have a free version?

aesopjah,

meh, yes and no. typical auto desk shenanigans. free for personal use.

Honytawk,

So is it free free, or is it free* for personal use?

As in, can I as an amateur use it with all the functions enabled for an unlimited time without spending money?

Because I can with FreeCAD.

MangoPenguin,
@MangoPenguin@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Yep

MrMamiya,

Poor people don’t have time above all else. A lot of times they are working 2 jobs, sometimes with those jobs doing shady scheduling where you are essentially on call without being paid for being on call.

Also tons of people just aren’t as smart as you are at computer things. Guess what? If they were you wouldn’t be as cool as you are for being able to do it.

I’ve found everyone has something they can teach me, whether it’s how to be or how not to be.

A great way to use your talent would be to assemble the resources that made you good at something and post it online so others can be lifted up by your knowledge.

Everyone in this entire world’s life is at minimum as complex and nuanced as your own. It’s kinda rough to assume laziness of people you don’t know well.

I’ve been up and down, and I ain’t better than anyone on here, I’m just trying to add a little of my perspective.

averyminya,

This is actually my argument for general consumer AI access. That person you’re describing already wouldn’t be able to pay an artist for a commission, but they can take 15 minutes to generate some images that make them happy. People deserve anything we can get that brings us joy in this time sensitive world.

Dieinahole,

Ahhh.... i suck at computers. Nowadays anyway.

But FOSS generally has the tech nerd I wish I was going over it, finding and squawking loudly about vulnerabilities, instead of quietly writing backdoors in.

No, it's not as stable and easy out of the box, but it's less likely to turn you into ICE because your name is half mexican

Templa,

Very convenient that you left out a lot of context, but I’m an open source enthusiast and he’s not wrong.

virtueisdead,

It looks like what they were trying to convey is apparently that it can be a large time and effort commitment that most people don’t have the technical expertise to figure out, which is a fairly reasonable argument in some contexts, but I do not think they conveyed it very well and they’re being kind of a dick about it in the replies, so idk. I understand the point, but this is NOT the way to get it across.

Knusper,

Normally, I would reply to the guy, because, you know, he’s a human being, but there’s so many replies, I doubt, he can actually read all of them and potentially someone else has already made that point.

Anyways, I feel like something he kind of misses here is that many of us do it from a heartfelt place. Like, we’re all techies. We’ve all used commercial software to a point where we’ve grown so frustrated with it that we decided it is a waste of time.

So, it’s not us saying “Why don’t you go and just have more time/money?”.
Rather, it’s us saying “This thing is wasting your time? Here is a solution that I felt wasted less time in the long run.”.

Yes, sometimes that does miss the mark, because not every complaint is looking for a solution. Or because we may be frustrated with restrictions of commercial software, which are not a problem for less techy people. Or even because we’re embedded in this tech world and are hoping to make it a better place, which someone just quickly visiting may not care about.

But other times, I do just happen to know a lot about technology and a non-techy genuinely did not know about the solution I suggested and is actually really appreciative of me bringing it up. It does happen. And it’s not easy to discern who would appreciate a suggestion and who won’t.

JustinHanagan,
@JustinHanagan@kbin.social avatar

I actually did jump into the replies and went back and forth with him a bit and I do think he (finally) understood the FOSS perspective. I think a lot of people get very hung up on this concept of a customer-product relationship and for some people it's a very hard mindset to break out of. I often forget that while "FOSS" is software, the "free software movement" is not really about software, it's political.

d0ntpan1c,

The political aspect is especially true. The FOSS confusion is often similar to the communism confusion, especially when it comes to small-scale things.

Take the concept of a neighborhood garden that no one is expected to pay money into, for instance. “Wait, so the people here who like gardening don’t expect me to pay or provide labor unless I’m able to? What do you mean i should take only according to my needs? What about Jimothy, he never helps but he takes way more than I do! What do you mean Jimothy contributes as he is able or in other ways? How can i trust everyone to be fair?”

Take the money for goods/services exchange out of the equation and it can really throw people off.

qyron,

“This program is really expensive and I keep having to buy a new computer every two years because it gets so slow.”

You’re being fucked with, when there are alternatives out there.

But that is none of my business.

Honytawk,

Alternatives aren’t always a solution.

qyron,

You can’t know until you try it.

Professionals are trained on already available answers, often target marketed, which moves forward the penetration of such answers into broad society.

This does not mean they are good or bad, just popular.

Any alternative solution will always be compared to the more popular, even if better.

Honytawk, (edited )

No you definitely can know.

Because if your company tells you you should use this software, you do not get a say in what software you use.

So it is either this, or nothing.

qyron,

Funny how we jumped from an implied personal use to an enterprise use all of a sudden.

To which the same basic rules apply. The added problem on enterprise is that you have legally binding contracts to force the company to stay with a bad software.

bou,
@bou@kbin.social avatar

@morrowind funny to find this here when I wrote my reply just a while ago:

"It's like talking to someone who is in a crappy apartment as though they have the agency and skills to stake out a plot of land and build their own home."

Maybe if you're suggesting them to install Linux From Scratch, then yes, it is.

If you're suggesting them them to install any of the many very simple (and very usable OOTB) distros like Fedora, then it's not.

In that case it's like the house is free, already built and furnitured, and right next to their own; but they have to move their personal belongings from one house to the other and learn a different room layout.

Sure, they still have the right to complain about how their landlord treats them like crap. But they sound pretty damn stupid if they do so while having an available free house right next door, and refusing to move because they don't want to learn a new room layout.

Tathas,

Well. And maybe the new house doesn’t support their bed.

LapGoat,
@LapGoat@pawb.social avatar

i mean yeah but they can just dual boot to metaphorically keep the old house too

morrowind,
@morrowind@lemmy.ml avatar

sleeping and living in different houses, with your original house able to “accidentally” blow up your new one at any point.

Honytawk,

Or you can just keep your old house where everything works, and the only annoying thing is the landlord.

ArcaneSlime,

Just gotta figure out if you’re ok with your landlord reading your diary.

Honytawk,

Most people are completely fine with it.

morrowind,
@morrowind@lemmy.ml avatar

It’s somewhere in between, you’re not building your own software, but oss software does usually tend to need more work. It’s like telling someone with a shitty landlord to move to a new house which they get to own, but it has no paint, or lighting, or flooring and they have to move their furniture and learn a different layout

niisyth,

Or even, just move to my building that has a much better landlord, but it’s a 5 storey walkup.

Some folks will be able to use that no issue, some folks might bitch but be happy in the end, and for some folks it’d be a nigh impossibility to do so.

And all of that, provided the house they have to be in, is within their control.

Da_Boom,
@Da_Boom@iusearchlinux.fyi avatar

And If it doesn’t require more work, it requires different work. The beast you know is easier and more comfortable to understand than the beast you don’t know, even if it would be more beneficial to learn to deal with the newcomer.

JustinHanagan,
@JustinHanagan@kbin.social avatar

It’s like telling someone with a shitty landlord to move to a new free house which they get to own

BluesF,

Isn’t the point that you don’t have a choice to just buy a house, because there are obstacles that prevent it. In the same way, I don’t have a choice to use Linux or whatever other foss alternative to the stuff I use daily because my laptop is owned by the company I work for and their policies dictate that it runs windows etc.

Honytawk,

How many times have you setup Fedora or any other Linux distribution and have every single thing working from the get go?

I’m talking drivers, audio, networking, libraries, DNF, repositories, plugins, runtime dependencies, …

  • That house isn’t furnished.

And don’t forget, plenty of popular software isn’t even compatible. Meaning you got to use alternative software that doesn’t always do what you want it to do.

  • So buy a new couch, cause that one isn’t getting in.
anothermember,

How many times have you setup Fedora or any other Linux distribution and have every single thing working from the get go?

I’m talking drivers, audio, networking, libraries, DNF, repositories, plugins, runtime dependencies, …

Is proprietary software any easier than that though? Don’t you have to put in much more time removing all the spyware and bloat they put in and then spend all your time perpetually fighting against forced updates and applications being installed without your permission?

Whereas with Fedora my experience is more or less install it and forget it.

The “it’s easier” argument for proprietary software I think died at least 15 years ago.

Choice of applications is a different argument.

Honytawk,

That is the thing, the software will function even with all the spyware and bloat.

Doesn’t bother a non-tech person.

anothermember,

Or could it be that it might bother them but they just keep quiet and put up with it, assume that it’s part of owning a computer and feel powerless to change anything?

MangoPenguin,
@MangoPenguin@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Is proprietary software any easier than that though?

Yes, take nvidia drivers for example, on windows I just download the installer and run it and done.

Last time I tried to move to Linux desktop (attempted Fedora and then EndeavourOS) about a year ago, none of that worked properly. Installing drivers was not in any way straightforward, needing CLI commands and google, where every guide I found seemed to have a different method used to install them, I kept getting outdated ones, and I had no idea what I was doing.

At the end of all that I still didn’t have HW acceleration in my browsers, my desktop had screen tearing, gsync didn’t work properly in windowed apps, the GPU wouldn’t downclock fully at idle like it’s supposed to, I couldn’t figure out how to get shadowplay working, and so on.

And yes I do know this is technically mostly nvidia’s fault for not having as good quality of drivers on linux. But as an end user all I care about is that my stuff works properly without googling things, needing the CLI, and spending a lot of time on it.

Don’t you have to put in much more time removing all the spyware and bloat they put in and then spend all your time perpetually fighting against forced updates and applications being installed without your permission?

Definitely not, I don’t really spend much time at all. I haven’t experienced forced updates, my apps just update through winget manually when I want to. There are a few extra apps I don’t need on windows but those take a minute to remove, I can’t say I’ve ever experienced an app being installed without my permission other than edge I guess, but that replaces IE for embedded browser stuff so it’s kind of needed.

Most of my ‘admin’ time is spent on the opensource apps I use, generally on my self hosted stuff. But also just on basic things like backup software, Veeam is my primary backup which is basically a 1 minute set up with a few clicks through the GUI, but I’ve been trying out Restic too which requires writing my own scripts to handle backups, more scripts to handle pruning and such, manually installing them as services so they run properly, and writing my own notification system on top of that just to get an email if something goes wrong.

Opensource is great, but it’s usually extremely time intensive to get the same results, with lots of documentation, google, and just wasted time trying to figure out the basics.

tuhriel,

Yep, got the same experience as you. Not with nvidia drivers bit my huawei laptop had a broken audio driver where only half of the speakers worked… Unless you plugges in a headphone… Then the headphone and the other half of the speakers worked… All in all, it took me at least a da to get that working

Also, still no fingerprint support…

You can do a lot with opensource and tailor it to your need, but you have to invest a lot of time… And that’s what a lot of people don’t have

anothermember,

Admittedly I do have the bias of experience which could blind me to the difficulties, when I phrased my first two sentences as questions they were genuine questions. Between work and personal life I must’ve installed Linux in some form at least 200 times over the last 20 years, so I’m not most users.

I’ve also not used Windows in many years, the last I think was when I had to use Windows 7 for work about 10 years ago and I found it extremely difficult to get it to do what I want. If it’s improved then it’s improved.

On the other hand a novice user can ask somebody to install Linux for them, what about that? That’s what my non-techy parents have done, and it’s easier for them to use Linux (they say so) and easier for me to provide technical support for them.

Also yes, avoid Nvidia.

MangoPenguin, (edited )
@MangoPenguin@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Yes we do get sort of blind to what the average non-tech person wants out of their computer, I certainly have plenty of Linux experience on servers, but that just doesn’t seem to translate across to being able to easily troubleshoot desktop Linux issues. I think because a server is a ‘set up once’ type thing, whereas running linux on my desktop feels like a constant battle with installing programs, and driver updates or new versions of a game breaking things.

IMO windows has vastly improved since W7. I can’t even remember the last time I had to troubleshoot a game or program not working properly. I have W11 on 3 PCs and it’s been extremely stable, almost every program other than games is installed via the winget package manager which also handles updates, and it doesn’t get that ‘windows slows down over time’ feeling that used to happen on 7, vista, etc… Obviously there’s some bloat to remove when you first install it, and a few annoying settings to change, but that’s not that big of a deal to me and I spend just as much time on a fresh linux install getting things how I want them.

As far as the GPU choice, right now nvidia just makes a better GPU IMO, with their DLSS and frame-gen that AMD so far can’t compete with. Shadowplay also works a lot more reliably than ReLive in my experience. I briefly had an RX 6700XT for a few weeks before returning it due to driver/software issues.

I spend enough time fixing IT things at work and on my selfhosted server stuff, I just want to get home, hit the power button on my PC and play some games or work on some code for a project without anything getting in the way.

ArcaneSlime,

How many times have you setup Fedora or any other Linux distribution and have every single thing working from the get go?

“Every”

RandomVideos,

With 0 experience with linux i installed nobara without any problems. I didnt need to install anything else(edit: excluding the software you can install in the “welcome” app), to change something in the settings etc

The only “hard” thing i had to do was to disable secure boot in the BIOS

Nalivai,

I think you are talking about the situation that might be true 15 years ago, vut right now you’ll be hardpressed to find anything that doesn’t work out of the box on any modern distribution. I don’t know what plugins and dependancies don’t work on your machine, but I assure you it’s not a universal experience, far from it.
Also, most of the software that you use on Linux is free, so you don’t “buy” new couch if your old is built specifically for your old house, you learn to sit on any of the new ones that you can get for free at any moment

DestinyGrey,

I say this over and over again, but I’m going to say it again. I disagree firmly with the second point because there is such a lead and usability and ease of use for popular commercial software such as Microsoft office and Adobe software. It’s available in so many languages, it has so much functionality, and yes, both surpass FOSS solutions by a wide margin in functionality.

If you don’t need Excel, I think Linux and libre office might work fine for a lot of people, but there are still gaps in usability and accessibility. I don’t really see the same for anything Adobe does in the Linux space however.

Linux is like 90% of the way there, but these are people with jobs and families and shit. You can’t expect them to spend time having to overextend themselves with technology.

Nalivai,

I wasn’t saying that we have everything available for Linux. Not yet, anyway. I was saying that whatever we have there is usually free and very customisable.
People committing from Windows and especially Mac infrastructure think that since they spent hundreds of dollars on software they use, they will have to do that again if they will swith to Linux. For a lot of people the thought of free software just never crossing the mind

Stowaway, (edited )

DraugerOS wouldnt even boot from the thumb drive for me. Garuda sort of worked, the live boot was damn near perfect, from a stability and basic performance perspective, but after a basic install there were some annoying artifacts like a block behind the cursor on some windows, steams store page would flash rapidly and performance was trash in any game even on low settings. A Logitech mouse scroll wheel was hit or miss working. I mean like you spin the wheel and while the wheel was free spinning the browser would start and stop responding to it. 8 hours of messing with kernels, drivers, and settings it I threw in the towel. Not worth the effort to just get it to run normally let alone

Arch was similarly poor performance. Mint was also poor performance. Im not a fan of the PopOS style, but it actually ran great on my machine so, I’ll take it.

Point being, I tried 4 different distros before finding one that worked mostly well out of box.

Edit: wrong name for draugeros

Nalivai,

Where the fuck have you found whatever weird esoteric distribs you are talking about, and why on earth did you went with those? Depending on the answer to the question, I kind of understand how you managed to make Arch “perform poorly” whatever that means in that regard, you need to have at least basic understanding to use Arch (or treat it as an opportunity to learn).
But you don’t start your experiments with something from third page of Google, at that point you’re an alpha tester.

Stowaway,

Google best gaming Linux distros. DraugerOS, Garuda, and popos are all prominent distros focused on gaming.

DraugerOS is Ubuntu LTS based.

Mint, not gaming focused, has been around for ages and is Ubuntu based. I’ve used it previously on older hardware with no issue. Just apparently doesn’t like newer hardware.

Garuda is arch based, probably why it was such a pain.

Popos is Ubuntu based as well.

I’ve also tried KDE plasma, ubuntu based, and man was that slow as hell. Works great on some hardware not on the hardware I tried.

I’ve installed Ubuntu in the past and had WiFi driver issues.

You mentioned any modern distros should work out of the box. The only one listed that mostly worked out of the box with semi reasonable performance was popos.

if someone is looking to install a distros to play games, theyll probably google “Linux for gaming” install one of the prominent distros listed above geared toward gaming then bang their head against the wall and quit.

We may understand arch is a full time job, but when Joe from sales builds a new gaming rig and took someone’s advice to install Linux and save money he doesn’t know all Linux distros are not created equally. Maybe he gets garuda or draugeros and bangs his head against the wall then goes back to windows.

There are a million different distros and yes some of the major ones work fine, but not always and if you run into issues it can be exponentially harder to fix the issue especially if you have no IT experience. Making it even worse is toxicity in forums or other support places where people treat you like you should know better because they have of knowledge of Linux and forget that we all have different levels of experience, many people have no experience.

Yearly1845,

20 years ago I had a lot of problems. These days I’m good to go on first boot. I even installed Fedora on my SO’s old laptop and my parents’ old PC and they never have any problems either.

somegeek,

That makes no sense. I think he should use home assistant for his home automation.

pkulak,

Ah yes, put your problem out in the internet, then get befuddled when people suggest solutions. Classic.

morrowind,
@morrowind@lemmy.ml avatar

Ah come on, don’t tell me you’ve never ranted on the internet, with no interest in a solution, just to rant

Templa,

But he was asking for a solution, people just weren’t giving solutions that were suitable

Fisk400,

But they are not solutions to the problem. They are asking you to fully abandon the problem and tackle a completely new set of problems.

The most annoying part is that they know this, they just want to signal their own moral superiority.

pkulak,

Using a different tool is not abandoning the problem.

TacoNissan,

“Hey, so my car is making a weird noise” “Just go out and get a different car then”

JustinHanagan,
@JustinHanagan@kbin.social avatar

"Hey so my free car that was built and maintained entirely by volunteers who received no financial compensation and was provided to me no strings attached is making a weird noise and I don't want to learn how to fix it myself nor am I willing to wait for someone else to fix it, nor am I willing to even tell the car-builders it has a problem."

In this context suggesting they complainer pay for a car doesn't sound so crazy?

TacoNissan, (edited )

No you have it backwards. More like

“hey, this car I bought for a couple grand is being fucky”

“nah man fuck buying a car. Leave that one in the ditch out back, and start driving this one my buddies made and have been fixing for years. Yeah it breaks a lot but hey it’s free. Oh you wanna keep using your old car, you just need an oil change? Bitch, what did I say? Use mine.”

Oh yeah btw, that new car, gas and brake are reversed. Nonono it’s ok just get used to it or you’re a dumbass

pkulak,

No, not at all. More like, if your car is broken you could also ride a bike, or walk, or take a bus or a cab or a train or an airplane. Sometimes it’s helpful to have solutions presented that you didn’t even think of. Like how you assumed that the only way to deal with a broken car is to fix it or buy a new one. That’s not true at all, and I’m here to help you explore all the ways to solve your problem, not just the ones at the top of your mind at the moment.

TacoNissan,

Yeah but I wanted my car fixed. Sure I’m riding my bike while it’s broken, but I want to fix my car.

Honytawk,

If they ask help with a problem in software, then telling them to switch to a completely different software is never a solution.

If the software is forced by the company they work for, then they do not have a choice to install a different one.

So stop looking at problems from only your perspective.

pkulak,

It’s the only perspective I have, unfortunately.

tuhriel,

There are always two opinions: mine and the wrong one

Kolanaki,
@Kolanaki@yiffit.net avatar

You could be tied to a specific piece of shit you don’t like because it’s what your job requires you to use.

I had to work with Salesforce and when I’d complain about it, Id be given all sorts of alternatives. These are nice but… The dude in charge of what the rest of us had to use liked Salesforce, so we all suffered.

drwho,
@drwho@beehaw.org avatar

Atlassian, too.

Luisp,

You are not buying a house, if the software is free it’s more like a expropriation

dallo,

You can pay each month or be free forever.

millie,

That’s goofy.

It’s like someone hearing someone complaining about a slum lord and pointing them to a company that gives out free parcels of land with free trailers on them. It’s not usually, like, a mansion, but it’ll do.

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